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screen printing => Ink and Chemicals => Topic started by: Colin on February 08, 2018, 04:41:51 PM
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Ok, I am not holding my breath on this but here goes:
Is there a Black Plastisol Ink on the market that does:
1) Wet on wet printing
2) Can be a first down black
Here's the kicker
3) Won't scorch/smoke up/turn polyester threads to goo under 2 or more flashes?
We currently use the Red Chili with Quartz bulbs which aggravates this issue.
Thanks in advance to all who look and ponder!
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We found the rutland black to be the best for this...... Have you ran that?
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WM Spec Black is designed for exactly what you described.
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We found the rutland black to be the best for this...... Have you ran that?
Which Rutland Black?
We have the QCM black in house, its been sitting around for a few years. I have been making a custom black for the last 4 years or so.
Danny: You can print a largish patch of black, then the white base, flash with a normal quartz flash setting, the white will flash fine and the black wont smoke (much) on 50/50 blends and tri-blends? Works well for a 2 or 3 flash job, no issues with poly melting?
My issues always come back to poly and synthetic fabrics...
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Let's cross some off of the list. Which blacks failed for you?
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Union Ultrasoft Black was a no go for me.
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Honestly I don't know it's possible with that Chili. Even with the intensity adjustment that flash just plain lights up some fabrics. The wavelength of the bulbs seems slightly wrong for this and the way it fires on is super punchy. Great for producing pallets of G5000 cottons but takes endless fiddling and a watchful eye on the blends.
We tried it many times with Wiflex matte black which has all the properties you are looking for save for the not burning the garment underneath one. It would work sometimes.
That said, our fancy new smart flashes still can't pull this off with matte black. They come close but not close enough for comfort so we don't print black first. I'd love to be able to.
What about amending the black ink with something that made it less transmissive? That would solve the issue with incinerating the shirt below the black imprint. Next, add some type of insulator to the black ink so it flashes slower, more in line with that thicker layer of white ub flashing with it. So you'd have to change the way the molecules in the black ink agitated when attacked by the flash so they stop passing heat to the fabric and also so they don't get hot way faster than the white ub. Another issue is all the different wavelengths that I assume each brand/model of flash has. If you were the ink co. you would need that wavelength to be in a range at the very least to mfg the black with these properties to combat it and still expect it to perform out there in the field.
I wonder if the black ink that had those properties would even be printable?
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To accomplish what your trying to do you will need a black with 4-6 percent pigment load or even a process black/RFU black mix. As with most ink questions you will get many different answers from The best screen printers in the country on this board. What works for one may not work for you as mesh/tension , flash temps, platen temps, squeegee durometor/angle all play a role in getting your desired end result. I would use your talent , the advice given here and do some testing and then post your results here.
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There ya go Chris :) You know my pain well....
So, we had a run of 7k+ red cotton shirts. The design had some tight detail spaces where the black had to drop in between walls of white.... this was a non starter as it would not print clean. We did not have an M&R Hot Head to help with thinning out the design, although we have one coming now :)
For that job, I ended up creating a chromatic black and printed it first. I tried out a few different Rutland bases with the C3 colorants. I used equal parts C3 red/Green/Red shade Blue and only 2% C3 black. It needed a little actual black to make it LOOK black. I know there is a better color balance available, but I wasn't concerned at the time.... we needed to get back on press!
All the different bases reacted the same under the flash. They all smoked up some. I added 1% plasticiser to the custom mix and that helped a bit. My biggest issue was, the best bases that created the least amount of smoke (it was actually almost non at that point) also built up on the back of the base screen more :(
And just an fyi for everyone - the heavier your deposit of black ink - the longer it can stay under the flash and not smoke... which isn't always what you want from a print, but info is always good :)
We tried lowering the power on our flashes and had issues with the white not flashing.... We were using Rutland Street Fighter which flashed fast and that helped thankfully.
This week we have a string of designs (custom line of clothing) where there is detail black doing the same thing, so we need to print the black somewhere in the print order (or first). So that brings me back to my main question of - a black that wont turn polyester thread into a pool of goo...
My custom black that I have been using for the last 4 years is fantastic for softness and fiber matte... but doesn't work well under more than one flash on poly blends.
If Danny doesn't chime back in with a few more details, I will give my rep a call tomorrow and see what he has.
The only other thing I can think of is a dye type of black pigment instead of carbon.... grrr, its been to long and I have begun to forget more than I remember ;)
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Thanks for the post RStefanick!
I was writing out my response when you posted so I didn't see your response until after. I posted about my experience with low black pigment in there.
Like Chris said, its mostly on the quartz flashes. The wavelength of those bulbs do not help and whats used for black pigment doesn't help either.
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Both the solid black and matte(eh8099) have worked pretty good. Always a bit of fashion base if we do the rare black first. I rarely ever go black first or early in print orders but I’ve been in tons of amazingly successful places that do tons of black first so if it works for you go for it.
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Surprised this hasn't been mentioned already, but Joe Clarke's Synergy black is awesome. Works well WOW and as a first down black and it's a matte finish.
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Surprised this hasn't been mentioned already, but Joe Clarke's Synergy black is awesome. Works well WOW and as a first down black and it's a matte finish.
Do you use quartz flashes?
There are a number of great wet on wet blacks out there :)
Its under quartz bulbs where they typically melt polyester threads :)
And I did think about the Synergy Black, but my hangup is still the aforementioned quartz flashes.
Danny: Do you remember if those shops were running quartz or infrared flashes?
My next step is to call up Rutland and ask their tech guys.
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Ah, I see. I run a quartz flashback on the auto, but I don't recall flashing after the black print so I'm not much help there. I've used it as a first down black while manual printing but it was flashed with an infrared panel after the fact.
Either way, I'd still try out the synergy black. It was made for printing on autos so I would hope it holds up well against a powerful quartz flash.
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Rutland says NPT TACK FREE ADDITIVE. But I will still have issues with the quartz bulbs.
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Okay, feel free to tell me why this is a bad idea, as I haven't dealt with the same situation exactly, but... what if you used low cure, or fast flash, for your white ink? That would effectively let you reduce the amount of time the black spends under the flash, and could alleviate the problem. Maybe?
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There is no white that flashes THAT fast :)
Also, the primary battle I will face in this, are the quartz bulbs in the Red Chili Flashes causing the black to absorb heat so fast that it melts Poly/Synthetic threads.
And its not just the first flash that's the main issue... its the subsequent flashes in the design which makes this the true headache. (that and hot boards...)
I can make a black that works great under a single flash.... but all the components that BUFFER the black are used up (essentially) under the first flash.
IR Panel flashes are ideal for situations like this, we just don't have any for the auto.
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Since our sportsman, for reasons beyond my comprehension, only had one input/control for a q flash we used a Reno as the 2nd flash.
Lucky we did as there were jobs that simply could not run with that Chili. It's simply the wrong wavelength of energy at the wrong power for much of the work a modern textile shop is doing. IR is a must to complement those types of flashes, imo. Not bashing the chili flash here, it's a solid piece of kit, just not quite right on the wavelength and power control.
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this is exactly why we bought a IR with our new press last summer. ruined way too many triblends and blends with the quartz. but the chili really works well on cotton shirts!
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QCM-901 WOW black, and cut 50/50 with halftone base, but you still need to be careful with the quartz flashes, flash time is about 1/2 what a white takes.
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I know all art is different, but is it possible to just leave the black as the last color printed to avoid flashing it all together?
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I know all art is different, but is it possible to just leave the black as the last color printed to avoid flashing it all together?
I am chasing this as a solution to the problems that arise when you cant get a clean print from your black going last. I.e. details are to fine to drop cleanly in between very narrow walls of white and color.
And yes, more often than not - I can print black before the last flash, but it is still art dependent.
Printing black first takes away the 3-dimensional headache, but introduces the volatility that is black ink.
I have the QCM black here, and even at the reduced pigment levels when cut, you will still have quartz bulb issues. Even my custom chromatic black at 2% black pigment would smoke up. On poly blends it still has a chance to melt...
I did talk with Joe Clark and he currently does not have a solution :)
Like I said in the beginning, I don't think there is a ready for market product that will work under quartz bulbs... an additive maybe...
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Out of curiosity have you tried increasing the distance between flash and pallets?
Probably similar results to lowering intensity, but when we get puzzles like this it's
one of the variables we'll try changing.
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It is similar to changing the intensity.
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Got it.
I had wondered if wavelength would increase as you get further away from the substrate.
Knowing just enough to be dangerous is my specialty.
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*mad scientist chuckle* MUAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
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Got it.
I had wondered if wavelength would increase as you get further away from the substrate.
Knowing just enough to be dangerous is my specialty.
I remember reading a rather interesting article* that mentioned different IR flash temps corresponded with slightly different wavelengths of energy, which corresponded with slightly different efficiencies in heating different colors of inks and substrates. I wish I could find it again.
It would be interesting to find out if there's a parallel in quartz, i.e. different inert gas in the tube or AC properties of the supplied power source changing how efficiently the ink is cured based on it's color.
*Disclaimer: It was a little over my head as far as wave theory and thermodynamics goes
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What an age we live in!
Sometimes, I get to thinking, as knowledge for this business, though easier to find, has gotten really grown in technicality and sophistication, if I really, really had a handle on all of it, and really understood the "whys", I'd wonder why the hell I was slingin' ink rather than designing new energy sources or miracle cures or surgeries for what ails humankind.
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I have been pondering the whole flash/heat source thing....
IR panels are slow-ish to flash, but definitely more stable then quartz...
Engineering wise, can we put a cover in front of the bulbs that changes its wavelength? Like we do for safe lights in the dark room. We would still be getting the intense heat from the bulbs so, obviously adding some forced air would help, like has been added to newer quartz flash units. At that point we would also want to run very close - shorter distance between bulbs and substrate...
It would potentially help with flashing of black AND the more delicate fabric blends out there. Specifically, there are carbon colored fabric blends that looooooooove to melt under quartz bulbs... its obviously to much to ask for from fabric makers right? ;)
It may not be a miracle cure for mankind.... but a huge assist for Printerkind :)
Anyways.... its a thought.
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What an age we live in!
Sometimes, I get to thinking, as knowledge for this business, though easier to find, has gotten really grown in technicality and sophistication, if I really, really had a handle on all of it, and really understood the "whys", I'd wonder why the hell I was slingin' ink rather than designing new energy sources or miracle cures or surgeries for what ails humankind.
You aren't hiring for a energy startup with buckets of venture capital by any chance?
:P
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I have been pondering the whole flash/heat source thing....
IR panels are slow-ish to flash, but definitely more stable then quartz...
Engineering wise, can we put a cover in front of the bulbs that changes its wavelength? Like we do for safe lights in the dark room. We would still be getting the intense heat from the bulbs so, obviously adding some forced air would help, like has been added to newer quartz flash units. At that point we would also want to run very close - shorter distance between bulbs and substrate...
It would potentially help with flashing of black AND the more delicate fabric blends out there. Specifically, there are carbon colored fabric blends that looooooooove to melt under quartz bulbs... its obviously to much to ask for from fabric makers right? ;)
It may not be a miracle cure for mankind.... but a huge assist for Printerkind :)
Anyways.... its a thought.
covers filter the light, so anything we don't want coming out is blocked. 'pretty sure there is no way to change the wavelength in a way that would be meaningful to us.
While going through different medium, light will change the wavelength while maintaining the frequency. For example, going from air to water will impact the light as it will travel slower due to the differential in density. So going from light to ink, it will slow down. The question is, how will this relate to what we are looking for? Is the lower wavelength what we want or is it opposite? If the change is in the right direction, could making the deposit thicker or adding some clear gel on the top help solve the problem???
pierre
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A thicker deposit will always help.... there is more volume to cross link and that takes more time. So from a visual perspective, that works for not torching the delicate fabrics.
Printing a layer of anything on top would again slow down the crosslinking, but kinda defeats where the black is in the print order..... You and I both don't want a heavy deposit, but we want a durable deposit for wash durability ( i know wet on wet black doesn't help this that much ;) ).
If the assumption is that black absorbs all wavelengths, if reducing some of that helps to slow down the crosslinking.... The core idea is, will reducing light as a factor, leaving just the bulbs as a heat source with fans creating an active heating area, create a better flash environment for dark inks that crosslink faster under quartz bulbs.
We know that infrared flashes do just fine with black ink - but are slower than most people want and are also Always On. Can we re-create some of that environment with a more active heat zone?
Just a thought - I could be way off base :)
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A thicker deposit will always help.... there is more volume to cross link and that takes more time. So from a visual perspective, that works for not torching the delicate fabrics.
Printing a layer of anything on top would again slow down the crosslinking, but kinda defeats where the black is in the print order..... You and I both don't want a heavy deposit, but we want a durable deposit for wash durability ( i know wet on wet black doesn't help this that much ;) ).
If the assumption is that black absorbs all wavelengths, if reducing some of that helps to slow down the crosslinking.... The core idea is, will reducing light as a factor, leaving just the bulbs as a heat source with fans creating an active heating area, create a better flash environment for dark inks that crosslink faster under quartz bulbs.
We know that infrared flashes do just fine with black ink - but are slower than most people want and are also Always On. Can we re-create some of that environment with a more active heat zone?
Just a thought - I could be way off base :)
got it! That makes sense! Bulbs as heat source should work. Now, who's going to make them?
pierre
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*Looks around at Ryonet and Action*
Both Ryonet and Action are pretty quick with making adjustments to and for equipment. I know M&R could come up with it, but they have quite a bit going on already ;)
Other than that..... *crickets*.....
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What's the effective difference between a heating bulb that emits no light and nichrome wire?
It sounds like a joke, but I have no punchline. Sorry.
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What's the effective difference between a heating bulb that emits no light and nichrome wire?
It sounds like a joke, but I have no punchline. Sorry.
How thin the wire is?
FWIW our Calmat flashes with the carbon ribbon elements that are very much on the dull-red end of the spectrum always
had very little issue with singeing. Very fast for 50 amp single phase as well.