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screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: brandon on April 28, 2018, 11:05:28 PM
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Hello All,
So we have had our unit for a little over a year now and things have been okay. Good piece of equipment, like it a lot, learning curve is okay, but there have been some issues along the way but we have learned a lot and have somewhat tamed the beast. Or so we thought. So here goes.
A few months ago we started getting bad nozzle checks even after all recommended maintenance. We even do more than the recommended maintenance as I wanted to avoid any issues. We we received a packet of info on Purging Ink and Purging Flush. That worked for awhile and yes I am aware that the Flush fluid is caustic and we always try to avoid that. That is a last ditch thing for us.
So that works for a few months as issues arose but a couple of weeks ago we started missing whole sections on nozzle checks. So tech remotes in does some changes and so forth. Good to go for a until Friday morning. All week no issues but Friday morning we are missing a section all across the top. Weird. Do several deeps cleans, auto cleans, nozzle checks. After an hour or two of this we call support and we then cap the head in the cleaning solution as told for a couple of hours. That actually made it slightly worse so we were told we can do it overnight. Did that and now it is Saturday night and here I am asking for help as that made it worse.
Pictures attached. Picture inf_5 is Friday morning with 1. being what happened, 2. being after sitting a couple of hours in cleaning solution. Picture inf_6 is now Saturday with 2. being Friday overnight in cleaning solution and 3. being Saturday night. I am not going to let is sit in solution again.
It just seems odd that the nozzle check is missing uniform and when it gets worse it is still uniform. This is just weird. Ever since we got the changes a couple of weeks ago we have had weird crashes and other odd jumpy things.
If anyone has had this happen before please let me know. I now have to be here for several hours outputting film for the week. Yaaay luck me. The unit is an I-Image S and I can really use some help right now. Thank you!
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WOW! Makes my issues look tame Brandon....
You haven't switched out to T6 yet right? Still running what it came with?
Have you cleaned the head - done some prints/test prints - then looked at the head to see if any ink is pooling at the nozzles? I would assume if the nozzles are clogged/not firing there would be none..... hmmm, do you end up with any dripping spots? maybe the nozzles are not firing and pooling ink at the head?
For what its worth, since the techs came in and changed our head we are running a 1.6 negative pressure. FAR from the 1.9-2.0 negative pressure at the factory... I hate T6 in my environment - apparently 31%-36% relative humidity is to dry for it..... Feel like a freakin guinea pig...
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We had a similar issue with part of a head not firing. Had to replace the head.
I feel your pain switching work flow mid stream. We recently added a second unit for this reason. These things will break and always at the worse time. Now that the smaller units are out I would recommend two of those over the larger machine. Redundancy.
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It does look to possibly be the head going bad. Hopefully it didn't accidentally partially get wiped when doing maintenance.
Have you had any sudden power outages?
Could be a faulty head-board.
Have you shut the machine down completely for a few hours and do a full power cycle?
You could do a manual flush using a syringe. You would need to talk with M&R to get the details on how to do this, and I'm sure they will not like this options, as this is not really a suggested solution. ( Also not the best idea to do without a head for backup )
Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
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It does look to possibly be the head going bad. Hopefully it didn't accidentally partially get wiped when doing maintenance.
Have you had any sudden power outages?
Could be a faulty head-board.
Have you shut the machine down completely for a few hours and do a full power cycle?
You could do a manual flush using a syringe. You would need to talk with M&R to get the details on how to do this, and I'm sure they will not like this options, as this is not really a suggested solution. ( Also not the best idea to do without a head for backup )
Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
Ah, thank you for reminding me. A couple of months back we were told to replace a board and possibly the head but it was loose wiring. I'm going to recheck that next. I've been told to replace to head 3 times now and it has never been the head so I'm kind of over that. What does letting the machine sit shut down for a few hours do? I am all ears.
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Brandon,
Shutting the machine down, (only need to be shut down for 5 min) is a way to purge any remaining lingering power to the boards for a clean refresh.
The shorter the time, the more chance you stand of possibly still having some remaining power.
The problem with determining head issues, is that there can literally be 10-15 different things that can cause a head issue and some of them provide very similar characteristics. Of course, that makes it harder to pin point. While you might think that Techs play phone support by a script, (The course of action) It's not. SOP, each tech goes down the list of things (they know in their head) and what seems to be most common. It's not scripted on paper. "many issues" seem to be almost too random or organic and require many questions with the answers taking you in different directions to be scripted.
Often times, the quickest way to resolve an issue that you are not sure of, is to through the most common resolve at it. (Replace heads). That route is costly, but often (9 times out of 10) does the trick...but may not actually solve why you are getting these issues in the fist place. Many customers who just need to go full out on production every day with 300 screens just wants to spend that money on new heads (whatever the cost, just get it done) is a common answer...while smaller more cost conservative customers find head replacements detrimental to their business.
Brandons pics are alarming. Any time that I've seen noz checks like that, they needed replaced. Be aware (disclaimer), there are always the unique situations where you can get these back, but it's rare. very rare and then you need to weigh out the time invested of being down.
I've not had that experience with prints like this where I was able to bring them back. I've brought back some for sure, but they were not looking like this and it was only a few of them I was able to do in a decent amount of time.
When I had come across heads (like this) in the pictures, A head replacement was my only answer (that I had experienced).
Having said that, You might possibly get this head back...if you were to remove it, (approx. 15-30 min to remove), and spend anywhere from 2-6 hrs of repeated gently flushed with a syringe over a sink, using isopropyl alcohol, Pink cleaning solution and distilled water, back and fourth, gently, flushing and filling for 4-6 hrs. In the end, it may still not ever work. So it's a coin toss.
I don't know if the ink was ever your problem on this, (could have been just bad luck on the head (1 bad in batch of 100?), Could be the INK was not the best fit for your shop. Some are finding better results with the new T6 over the D2A, so give that a try as well as a head replacement.
Brandon sounds like he's done the right things all along. Doing (more than) the average maintenance is great. That's what we do now and use D2A with no issues. I will say, we have 3 heads and one of them has about 2-3 jets blocked in it that we cannot get out. It was there before I came on board and probably was due to a lack of maintenance at that time (but they were new to it and didn't get 100% training on it at the time due to a new building and no power at the time of install.
With that tho, it (Sounds like) you are doing everything right.
I'm not saying this is the case with Brandon, but Techs hear this every day because a customer/employee never wants to admit they weren't doing things right.
Tech: Do you do a nozzle check every morning?. Yes. Every morning? Yes, every morning. How does that nozzle check look every morning and if you see any issues, do you fix those issues before doing production? Yes, we fix those issues. We get good nozzle checks every day (until this last week).
Ok, so good noz check practice then. (Tech at this point should have the customer walk through their process of clearing out any print issues in the noz checks). They should ask, HOW, do you clear out the ink lines? Convince me you are doing this process correctly. They often take the customers word, but it's a tight rope we must walk. We don't want to give the impression that we think the customer is dumb or something so you have to be articulate in how you ask these questions. Some are not good at it.
Did you flush the heads to get all of the air out of the line? YES. Did that. Did you do this? Yes, did that. Try this? yes, yes yes.
Customer says, Hey, we did all of that, been doing it for three days now with other Techs, and it's not working! We need someone down here!
and so we get scheduled to fly in...to find that the customer didn't really do this and this and this and that AND, had never done it right when they did do it. So that kind of customer situation was not uncommon. Those are probably 4 out of 10 customers so you can imagine that we are always very leery when customers say, They have done everything right and always do their maintenance.
I had one customer go through all of this with me on the phone, and then I finally had them take a picture of the ink lines and it showed all of the nozzle valves were closed. They said it was in the print ready position. Closed? How can you print that way? So they were mixed up on (closed and open positions) of the link valves. This happened, be cause their normal buy left the co. and they were running the machine on their own with no experience for several days like that. (happens a lot). Even when you have the maintenance sheets right in front of you, sometimes it can be read differently than it is written I guess.
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Thanks everyone for the responses, I appreciate it. When we do deep cleans and often besides the daily maintenance the machine is shut down longer than five minutes so that answers that. I didn't know if there was something else that would happen over a few hours but apparently not. So good there. For ink we are still D2A and planning on doing a change to the new ink but we were / are planning on getting a few days ahead in screens in case something like this happens. But for what it's worth the official word I got was no matter what ink type and no matter how many screens a day five or fifty or one hundred expect no more than one year out of a head. So if you have a one head or three heads expect to replace every twelve months.
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Awesome answers from Dan.
I am feeling some burn still from over 2 months of dealing with my own iimage issues, so please forgive some of my attitude and wordings :)
But, double check that your environmental humidity is within the parameters of the T6 ink. You are super detail oriented being a waterbased ink shop. I know you are in a moist area, but is your screen room dry, low humidity etc... The T6 ink I was told to install will crack (cracked earth look) on my screens and if I back an image up, the first print will start to pull away from the edges of the print, shredding my screen edges (basically causing low opacity/uv blocking). My screens are in a box in the low 30's% for humidity and my environment is low to mid 30%. We are also using the same emulsion :)
Hope its fixed soon :)
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Humidity in our screen room is between 30 and 35 percent.
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Basically nothing has changed just the head decided to stop working correctly. So something is going on or it has given up and needs to be replaced. It is just weird all of the recommended "fixes" have made it uniformly worse.
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Yup.
When you get your head replaced, double check that M&R still recommends that you use the T6 in your environment. Its pretty much identical to mine.
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The funniest thing today using film again is we had no tape in the shop. Had to go over to the neighbors
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Luckily I haven't had these problems yet (knock on wood), just lots of cleaning and fighting with the D2a, but it seems kind of ridiculous to pay as much as we do for these units, and then have to turn around and replace the heads in a short time frame. Kinda defeats the cost savings stand-point of the units. Granted, I know not everyone has these issues pop up, but it sure seems to be an issue quite a bit more often here lately.
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Head and tech fly in today and hopefully back up and running. Then make some sort of art project with this week's left over film.
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I'm sorry to see that brandon.
I agree lonewolf. Regardless of brand, masking media type (wax or ink) and print head version it seems to be endemic to CTS units to blow high cost heads all the time. Seeing more and more feedback like this is eye opening and it corroborates our overall experience which, again, totally different machine but so many similarities between the issues with them all. Your comment sums up why we don't have CTS in here anymore.
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5 years and running CTS here..... Never had a single head issue, wax or ink. Results for sure vary but cts/dts is the best machine for our workflow here at DPH
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Hey Danny, do you still prefer it over the lazer and if so can you elaborate? I believe they are now being sold with a few not too far north of us so I am curious to hear your opinion. Thanks!
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Yeah that's the weird part is there's guys like you who have had totally smooth sailing with the printheads.
These things are printers after all...
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Hey Danny, do you still prefer it over the lazer and if so can you elaborate? I believe they are now being sold with a few not too far north of us so I am curious to hear your opinion. Thanks!
Out of everything out there wax dts is my go to choice. It's a toss up between the douthitt and the kiwo xts for me. The new douthitt w/ speed mode and a couple other mods the workflow is the fastest dts out there, but for on press registration the kiwo xts provides the best results as the xts mimics how a screen clamps on press where the other units traditionally use a drum(pusher frame) which creates registration errors. The laser technology is really cool but I could not make it work in my production here for multiple reasons. Currently I am using the newest douthitt wax unit with a lot of success but the kiwo does offer some advantages imo like eliminating the pusher frame/having the z axis on a motor.
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If I could get away with it I would turn this one into a boat anchor and go wax...
I am so done with being the guinea pig for a teenage scientist.
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I'm going to say that yes, we've had head issues in the past, and yes it is a hard pill to swallow but man, CTS is the single handedly most beneficial system we have in the shop.
I would stab myself before going back to film, and if it means having to replace print heads so be it.
I also should state we converted over to a single head I-Image from a 2 head machine, because I didn't want to have to replace two heads again. Don't notice any workflow issues, ( We do about 50 screens a day) and I minimized the risk, as there is always a backup head here. PLUS the detail with a single head is better, as the 2 heads slipped out of calibration eventually. Nothing to calibrate on a single head...
Also I sourced out cheaper Ricoh gen 4 heads, and can find them for about 800$ euro on sale.
Not an easy pill to swallow... but damn CTS makes the process so much easier.
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My I image is down since last Thursday. Doesn't seem like a head problem, seems more like some sort of communication issue. Prints fine the first couple inches and then starts double imaging left to right. Have replaced the encoder strip and now waiting on the strip reader and maybe a tech. We are printing film on our 54 inch Roland and praying. Film sucks and I never want to go back but it was reassuring having three Epson 3000's laying around.
I am building an inventory of spare parts. The encoder strip is $75. Unless you happen to live in Chicago why not have one on hand is what I am thinking. When I find out what this problem is I will certainly try to stock the parts I need. And I will post it on this thread so maybe it will help someone in the future.
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If I could get away with it I would turn this one into a boat anchor and go wax...
I am so done with being the guinea pig for a teenage scientist.
Teenage scientist? LOL. Who might that be? Alex is like 35 yrs old. He does have that scientist look about him.
Once your specific issue is resolved, you will be back saying how much you love it.
I'm one of the mist critical when it comes to screens and halftones. Wouldn't change a thing here (no need to) and I would not see any benefit on the printed shirt compared to wax. People say it's a better shaped dot. That in and of itself, means squat really. I've said it many times before. I used to believe and used 2400-3600dpi perfect round dot to get the best results. I've proven to myself that's just not the case.
One type might perform with more ease than another and one might cost less or more than another, and one might have more consumption than another. That should be the focus in my opinion. One day, I'll be at someones shop that has wax and I may get the chance to get into the guts of it but so far, a good print is a good print coming from both types. The proof is in the pudd'n so to speak. I'm sure you will have break down and need parts for both types as well. Look at the old Epson films printers. They break down and need repair but it cost less...but probably more frequently but you have all that film cost etc. A lot of pro's and cons with DTS in any form being better by a lot.
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My I image is down since last Thursday. Doesn't seem like a head problem, seems more like some sort of communication issue. Prints fine the first couple inches and then starts double imaging left to right. Have replaced the encoder strip and now waiting on the strip reader and maybe a tech. We are printing film on our 54 inch Roland and praying. Film sucks and I never want to go back but it was reassuring having three Epson 3000's laying around.
I am building an inventory of spare parts. The encoder strip is $75. Unless you happen to live in Chicago why not have one on hand is what I am thinking. When I find out what this problem is I will certainly try to stock the parts I need. And I will post it on this thread so maybe it will help someone in the future.
I've seen some printer cables end up getting a bad wiring connection in the past between the printer and the computer. Maybe something breaks inside for some reason. That can cause double imaging but there are other areas for bad connections as well. Could be a loose wire, (had that happen). Could be a bad sensor etc. Having the Tech evaluate is the best choice in my opinion.
Whenever I had any issues with a print they always said, check the encoder strip. I've only ever come across one shop, one time when it actually was the encoder strip, but it's one of the things we had to check and that place did not clean their machine like ever. It was covered with like 4-5 yrs of black over spray mist and even bent up a little. Replaced that and was back up and running.
Hope it goes well.
D
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Dan - when I don't notice anything going wrong - I LOVE MY MACHINE! (DTS is amazing)
But....Its been over 2 months of back and forth with only some stuff actually fixed and resolved. I keep running around and wasting a RIDICULOUS amount of shop time. Hence the test subject reference. Teenage scientists like to try lots of different things just to see what happens...
The latest:
M&R told us to replace the D2a ink with T6 and at the same time they were going to replace the print head. I told them the emulsion I use (murakami T9) and the environment I am in. They replace everything and work on it all day trying to get stuff fixed. Getting the print head nozzles to fire properly looks 95% fixed! What helped a ton was going down to a negative pressure of 1.6 We still have shadow ink splatter, fuzzy edges, and some haloing print issues on smaller text (its most obvious there). They cant figure it out. The tech spent hours going over the machine - left here stumped and exhausted. Got stuff in a much better place - but its not fixed.
Here is the current big one and what I talked about above:
The T6 ink cracks (looks like cracked earth) and pulls away from the edge of the print. This causes issues if I have a thicker stencil and need to expose for a longer period of time... My stencil edges look "shredded" and it noticeably takes longer to spay out an image with the wet emulsion looking "sandy or gritty" (the cracked ink lacks proper UV blocking power). The only solution is to not make thicker stencils and cut the window on my exposure times very narrow. *I like to over expose when making screens for waterbase printing.* This became a habit and I ended up over exposing most screens - I do not overexpose to the point of loosing detail - I still keep all the image detail in the screens. Oh, the cracking/longer rinse out also happens if I need to double up a screen with 2 images. The first image gets to sit for a few minutes drying up and cracking.
I was initially told by M&R that my environment is "too dry". My screen room is at 32%-38% humidity on average and my dry box sits between 30% and 35% on the dehumidifier display. The dehumidifier is set to 40% and its a wood box, so it breathes a bit. Even when I pushed the room and box up to 40% humidity - the T6 still cracks. This is still apparently not their problem - my room is not properly set. Or... maybe the emulsion is not compatible... (remember I told them what I am using)
Well - I ended up asking multiple times over 2 weeks - what IS the proper humidity and room setting for Murakami T9 emulsion (that I have been using since installation). Absolute silence on the part of M&R. What I did get from them was - after much asking - "Switch back to the D2a or change your emulsion" wait... what? I was told this was the fix... huh?...
Now, when we have some down time, we will need to switch out the T6 ink to something else.... Or find another emulsion to use as per M&R's suggestion, so switching inks it is.
I email M&R a new issue the week after the techs left - hey, why do I have satellite dots? They remote in and mess with stuff - I test the changes - its not fixed. I ask again a week later, how do we fix this - I get yelled at for not having the head temp turned on, on the print head!..... wait... didn't you guys remote in last week and look at all this and play with settings? Why wasn't that adjusted???? (and why was it off in the first place?) I fix the temp (no, we do not mess with that setting ever unless directed by a tech). Satellite dot issues are reduced, but the softness/fuzzy edges remain.
I just want things to work. I don't want to have to keep chasing this problem for over 2 months. All the suggestions have felt like shots in the dark... throwing darts at the machine... then stuff was thrown in that messed things up in another way, causing us more headaches...
I am obviously Highly frustrated and I am sure Alex is sick of seeing my emails pop up ;)
The reference to a wax machine is a metaphor for a non M&R machine.
Thanks to all those reading this for bearing with my frustrations. Hopefully this will help someone in the long term.
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Why don't you just switch emulsions. I would stick with the T6, by far.
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I can understand your frustration. There is nothing like having the same issues over a long period of time with the (supposed) experts not being able to find anything.
It's there, (the answer) but it's something that they just don't see yet and don't know where/how to attack the problem. They really are good at what they do, but you have to remember, these DTS machines are not like a Ford or Chevy. They haven't been around for years and years with every home mechanic being able to know them inside and out. The techs are far and few between and takes some time to get really familiar with them. They are skilled techs and even the newest Tech knows more about these machines that anyone on the outside. Some have said "Awe, it's just a printer", but it's more, much more than just a printer. Simple yet complex. I know Alex very well and he is indeed a good guy. He is excellent at his job and he will send in the most available yet the most skilled for the specific problem at hand.
Your problem will get fixed. They always do. The question is, how long will that take.
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Why don't you just switch emulsions. I would stick with the T6, by far.
I honestly see no difference on the screen between the T6 and D2a. Other than cracking, there is no performance change - that I can actually see and measure. The assumption is T6 is better on the head/nozzles because it is more fluid - but no one has "Stated" that as of this time. Why have you made the decision to stick with the T6?
If T6 is truly better long term, can you point me in the direction of an emulsion that has at least the same (or better) solids/water resistance/discharge resistance/insane detail resolution as Murakami's T9? Finding another "right emulsion" will take far longer than switching out the T6 for D2a. Walt from Murakami will be up in the Portland area next week for the NBM show. He is supposed to be stopping by my shop so I can get some great answers from him then.
And thanks Dan. Yea, these are very complex, very delicate machines.
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If I could get away with it I would turn this one into a boat anchor and go wax...
Dam* Colin this is a raw shake of events you have going on, your comment might be the best solution a shop your size can eat up $50K lost revenue from a critical piece of equipment quickly. Really taken back the vendor can not get you dialed in with a predictable setup.
Best of luck getting this cleared up.
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Why don't you just switch emulsions. I would stick with the T6, by far.
I honestly see no difference on the screen between the T6 and D2a. Other than cracking, there is no performance change - that I can actually see and measure. The assumption is T6 is better on the head/nozzles because it is more fluid - but no one has "Stated" that as of this time. Why have you made the decision to stick with the T6?
If T6 is truly better long term, can you point me in the direction of an emulsion that has at least the same (or better) solids/water resistance/discharge resistance/insane detail resolution as Murakami's T9? Finding another "right emulsion" will take far longer than switching out the T6 for D2a. Walt from Murakami will be up in the Portland area next week for the NBM show. He is supposed to be stopping by my shop so I can get some great answers from him then.
And thanks Dan. Yea, these are very complex, very delicate machines.
We switched from D2a to T6, and that helped us to get rid of the satellite dots. We just replaced our heads (for another reason), and Alex was trying to get us to buy parts which would have resulted in $3-5k worth of wasted parts if we would have listened. It's been a couple of months since we've switched, and i'm trying to recall what the explanation was, as to why switching the ink helped get rid of those dots. Let me ask my Screen guys if they remember.
We are using Saati's PHU2 with Diazo though!
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Whats your exposure times Eric? We were using the PHU before the iimage came in.
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Whats your exposure times Eric? We were using the PHU before the iimage came in.
Yeah we've been using it almost exclusively since we got the I-image in 2014.
We switched from PHU to PHU2 in later 2014, and then switched to Diazo in the PHU2, in 2017. About 3 months ago, we switched from the M&R exposure system on our STEII (front and back bay), to the Saati LED.
a 230/48 thin thread exposes for around 62 seconds with the Saati Light.
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Ok. Our 225/40 thin thread exposes for 12-13 seconds on our Starlight.
Thats the T9 with diazo. I wonder what the conversion is for the Saati light to starlight?
Hey, this is Brandons post and his tech should be hard at work by now:
Give us updates Brandon!
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We switched to the saati light, and immediately saw better detail and resolution in our imaging. We were able to dial in exposure so that our halftones came out better. To my understanding it gives a better light spectrum.
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All great info on this thread for everyone! All good learning. Tech will hopefully be here tomorrow
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I don't mean to highjack this thread but I did want to get the outcome available. It seems as though it was a cable on our machine. Tech came and started replacing one thing at a time and the main cable that connects the print head to the machine seems to have been the problem. Makes sense now. It would print fine for the first few inches of the design while the head was all the way forward and then gradually loose it as the head moved back. The cable being in the cable holder thing bending as the head moved back... M&R did a good job as usual despite my frustration. I have a pic of the problem if anyone wants to add it here or see it to make all of this make sense. Email me al@dragonflycentral.com I hope the info helps someone down the road and I hope the OP gets up and running very soon.
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oh goody - yet another way the head can go bad ;) Glad it got fixed though! You should be able to drag and drop your image from your computer. There is an "attachments and other options" tab at the bottom of your post reply screen.
Eric - We can resolve the 1-2% dots @ 60 lpi- that the iimage gives us - on our starlight with the T9 and diazo on the 225s mesh. Does the PHU give you the same?
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oh goody - yet another way the head can go bad ;) Glad it got fixed though! You should be able to drag and drop your image from your computer. There is an "attachments and other options" tab at the bottom of your post reply screen.
Eric - We can resolve the 1-2% dots @ 60 lpi- that the iimage gives us - on our starlight with the T9 and diazo on the 225s mesh. Does the PHU give you the same?
Have you linearized the output of your i image? I was on a consulting trip recently and measured the output of one. The 2% on that machine without a curve adjustment in the rip was around 10%, the 50% range was in the mid 60’s, etc. I’ve measured a few wax machines now and it’s funny how close they all are but everything has a ton of gain with stock settings from my experience.
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I can understand your frustration. There is nothing like having the same issues over a long period of time with the (supposed) experts not being able to find anything.
It's there, (the answer) but it's something that they just don't see yet and don't know where/how to attack the problem. They really are good at what they do, but you have to remember, these DTS machines are not like a Ford or Chevy. They haven't been around for years and years with every home mechanic being able to know them inside and out. The techs are far and few between and takes some time to get really familiar with them. They are skilled techs and even the newest Tech knows more about these machines that anyone on the outside. Some have said "Awe, it's just a printer", but it's more, much more than just a printer. Simple yet complex. I know Alex very well and he is indeed a good guy. He is excellent at his job and he will send in the most available yet the most skilled for the specific problem at hand.
Your problem will get fixed. They always do. The question is, how long will that take.
At least they will get it fixed once they figure out the issue. Imagine having a press with bent shaft and a manufacturer refusing to fix it!!!
pierre
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Pic of print that turned out to be a cable.
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oh goody - yet another way the head can go bad ;) Glad it got fixed though! You should be able to drag and drop your image from your computer. There is an "attachments and other options" tab at the bottom of your post reply screen.
Eric - We can resolve the 1-2% dots @ 60 lpi- that the iimage gives us - on our starlight with the T9 and diazo on the 225s mesh. Does the PHU give you the same?
Have you linearized the output of your i image? I was on a consulting trip recently and measured the output of one. The 2% on that machine without a curve adjustment in the rip was around 10%, the 50% range was in the mid 60’s, etc. I’ve measured a few wax machines now and it’s funny how close they all are but everything has a ton of gain with stock settings from my experience.
I must have read almost 50 films for ppl by now. NOT one 50% was below 62% and most came in at 70% or so. On the low side, most gain is about 5% so 2 reads as 7% (in some cases 9%). This is with film though, but in the end they all produce the dots the same way. . .
pierre
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oh goody - yet another way the head can go bad ;) Glad it got fixed though! You should be able to drag and drop your image from your computer. There is an "attachments and other options" tab at the bottom of your post reply screen.
Eric - We can resolve the 1-2% dots @ 60 lpi- that the iimage gives us - on our starlight with the T9 and diazo on the 225s mesh. Does the PHU give you the same?
Have you linearized the output of your i image? I was on a consulting trip recently and measured the output of one. The 2% on that machine without a curve adjustment in the rip was around 10%, the 50% range was in the mid 60’s, etc. I’ve measured a few wax machines now and it’s funny how close they all are but everything has a ton of gain with stock settings from my experience.
My 50% is now printing juuuuust under 50%. I have pulled back on the shadows a touch and my 10% dot a touch. Doesnt mean its printing "correctly" however. I don't have the tools here to correctly measure my dots in the shadows or highlights. I have to go off of eye..... I'm older now and need glasses lol. I would love to have the tools - or someone with the tools come in and run a quick calibration though!
I can understand your frustration. There is nothing like having the same issues over a long period of time with the (supposed) experts not being able to find anything.
It's there, (the answer) but it's something that they just don't see yet and don't know where/how to attack the problem. They really are good at what they do, but you have to remember, these DTS machines are not like a Ford or Chevy. They haven't been around for years and years with every home mechanic being able to know them inside and out. The techs are far and few between and takes some time to get really familiar with them. They are skilled techs and even the newest Tech knows more about these machines that anyone on the outside. Some have said "Awe, it's just a printer", but it's more, much more than just a printer. Simple yet complex. I know Alex very well and he is indeed a good guy. He is excellent at his job and he will send in the most available yet the most skilled for the specific problem at hand.
Your problem will get fixed. They always do. The question is, how long will that take.
At least they will get it fixed once they figure out the issue. Imagine having a press with bent shaft and a manufacturer refusing to fix it!!!
pierre
Oh geebus..... My inner lawyer is hopping mad reading that....
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oh goody - yet another way the head can go bad ;) Glad it got fixed though! You should be able to drag and drop your image from your computer. There is an "attachments and other options" tab at the bottom of your post reply screen.
Eric - We can resolve the 1-2% dots @ 60 lpi- that the iimage gives us - on our starlight with the T9 and diazo on the 225s mesh. Does the PHU give you the same?
Have you linearized the output of your i image? I was on a consulting trip recently and measured the output of one. The 2% on that machine without a curve adjustment in the rip was around 10%, the 50% range was in the mid 60’s, etc. I’ve measured a few wax machines now and it’s funny how close they all are but everything has a ton of gain with stock settings from my experience.
My 50% is now printing juuuuust under 50%. I have pulled back on the shadows a touch and my 10% dot a touch. Doesnt mean its printing "correctly" however. I don't have the tools here to correctly measure my dots in the shadows or highlights. I have to go off of eye..... I'm older now and need glasses lol. I would love to have the tools - or someone with the tools come in and run a quick calibration though!
there is no easy way to calibrate the CTS output. find the test pattern I made and print it on paper or even better, get a calibrated printout on film. Than lay it over the screen print of the same and compare the dots. To make it even better, print a shirt or sheet of paper through the pattern and see how much gain you get. We found out that even though the dots on the emulsion were correct size, once actually burned they were only a fraction of what they were supposed to be (for lower percentages). So our 5% is now printing as 8% or so on the screen, but once washed out it makes the correct size opening. This is in part (my belief) due to lower Dmax on the outer edge of the InkJet droplets (they are taller in the middle thus work better there than on the periphery).
pierre
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oh goody - yet another way the head can go bad ;) Glad it got fixed though! You should be able to drag and drop your image from your computer. There is an "attachments and other options" tab at the bottom of your post reply screen.
Eric - We can resolve the 1-2% dots @ 60 lpi- that the iimage gives us - on our starlight with the T9 and diazo on the 225s mesh. Does the PHU give you the same?
Have you linearized the output of your i image? I was on a consulting trip recently and measured the output of one. The 2% on that machine without a curve adjustment in the rip was around 10%, the 50% range was in the mid 60’s, etc. I’ve measured a few wax machines now and it’s funny how close they all are but everything has a ton of gain with stock settings from my experience.
My 50% is now printing juuuuust under 50%. I have pulled back on the shadows a touch and my 10% dot a touch. Doesnt mean its printing "correctly" however. I don't have the tools here to correctly measure my dots in the shadows or highlights. I have to go off of eye..... I'm older now and need glasses lol. I would love to have the tools - or someone with the tools come in and run a quick calibration though!
there is no easy way to calibrate the CTS output. find the test pattern I made and print it on paper or even better, get a calibrated printout on film. Than lay it over the screen print of the same and compare the dots. To make it even better, print a shirt or sheet of paper through the pattern and see how much gain you get. We found out that even though the dots on the emulsion were correct size, once actually burned they were only a fraction of what they were supposed to be (for lower percentages). So our 5% is now printing as 8% or so on the screen, but once washed out it makes the correct size opening. This is in part (my belief) due to lower Dmax on the outer edge of the InkJet droplets (they are taller in the middle thus work better there than on the periphery).
pierre
I have watched that in Macro with the T6 ink pulling away during cracking... I completely understand your statement about image area and ink density. Anyone have a sheet that I can use for comparison?
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oh goody - yet another way the head can go bad ;) Glad it got fixed though! You should be able to drag and drop your image from your computer. There is an "attachments and other options" tab at the bottom of your post reply screen.
Eric - We can resolve the 1-2% dots @ 60 lpi- that the iimage gives us - on our starlight with the T9 and diazo on the 225s mesh. Does the PHU give you the same?
Have you linearized the output of your i image? I was on a consulting trip recently and measured the output of one. The 2% on that machine without a curve adjustment in the rip was around 10%, the 50% range was in the mid 60’s, etc. I’ve measured a few wax machines now and it’s funny how close they all are but everything has a ton of gain with stock settings from my experience.
My 50% is now printing juuuuust under 50%. I have pulled back on the shadows a touch and my 10% dot a touch. Doesnt mean its printing "correctly" however. I don't have the tools here to correctly measure my dots in the shadows or highlights. I have to go off of eye..... I'm older now and need glasses lol. I would love to have the tools - or someone with the tools come in and run a quick calibration though!
there is no easy way to calibrate the CTS output. find the test pattern I made and print it on paper or even better, get a calibrated printout on film. Than lay it over the screen print of the same and compare the dots. To make it even better, print a shirt or sheet of paper through the pattern and see how much gain you get. We found out that even though the dots on the emulsion were correct size, once actually burned they were only a fraction of what they were supposed to be (for lower percentages). So our 5% is now printing as 8% or so on the screen, but once washed out it makes the correct size opening. This is in part (my belief) due to lower Dmax on the outer edge of the InkJet droplets (they are taller in the middle thus work better there than on the periphery).
pierre
I have watched that in Macro with the T6 ink pulling away during cracking... I completely understand your statement about image area and ink density. Anyone have a sheet that I can use for comparison?
I know somebody!!!!
pierre
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You know a guy? Should we set up the digital walls so the FBI wont listen in?
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You know a guy? Should we set up the digital walls so the FBI wont listen in?
"No Comment!" and any further questions should be addresses to Bruno.
pierre :-X
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I know 2 - Bruno at the Shady Motel or Bruno at the Dance Club? ;D
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I know 2 - Bruno at the Shady Motel or Bruno at the Dance Club? ;D
send me your address and I'll talk to Bruno for ya. . .
pierre
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I know 2 - Bruno at the Shady Motel or Bruno at the Dance Club? ;D
send me your address and I'll talk to Bruno for ya. . .
pierre
Thanks Pierre!
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For me this post has been very interesting, I would love to get a DTS. My problem is that I am based in Israel, closest M&R tech might be in Europe, wax in UK or USA.
Reading about all the problems made me realize that I have to wait until these units are more stable.
I think the wax units are more reliable but at $50,000 I cannot afford one.
This week Marshall Atkinson had a podcast with Andy Anderson and he said he still uses a Epson and film, if he can use film, so can I. Pity I don't get his results.
So thanks for all the info, I'll keep reading until the problems are solved.
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I just do not understand why M&R cannot get this sorted out in a timely manner for you Colin. I know some say these are super high tech rocket science machines which may have been true in 2010 but in 2018 this is old technology. I came in this morning to find this error message on my wax machine which was a first time event, I texted my contact the Team Viewer login, went to Starbucks and the donut shop, came back and it was fixed ready to roll. You should have a similar experience with your machine anything less is unacceptable.
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So just wanted to recap this post we are back up and running. We were only down for 3 days and jammed out a lot of film in those days haha. I remember someone on here a few months back posting they were ditching their film output since they just got a new CTS unit and lots agreed. Just my opinion and now experience we would have been out a ton of money if we didn't have that film back up those three days.
So anyway, new head is in and now running the T6 ink. So far all is fine as it should be. It's a new head. Cleanings do seem to be easier but again it is a new head. According to the new ink cleanings / nozzle checks should be easier and less frequent but we will still do our rigid cleaning / nozzle check pattern. I would rather overdue it and not loose a head and use film again for three days. Ugh.
And for environment variables here goes. Our screen room is right beside our CTS room. Separate rooms by one door. Screen room is at 80 degrees at 32 - 36 percent humidity. The CTS room is at around 45 - 50 percent humidity with a temp at 75 -78 degrees. So far all is well. We were told to not have the CTS unit at a temp over 80 degrees. If so you will loose your head over time at a faster rate. Any questions and I will be happy to respond to the best of my knowledge.
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So just wanted to recap this post we are back up and running. We were only down for 3 days and jammed out a lot of film in those days haha. I remember someone on here a few months back posting they were ditching their film output since they just got a new CTS unit and lots agreed. Just my opinion and now experience we would have been out a ton of money if we didn't have that film back up those three days.
So anyway, new head is in and now running the T6 ink. So far all is fine as it should be. It's a new head. Cleanings do seem to be easier but again it is a new head. According to the new ink cleanings / nozzle checks should be easier and less frequent but we will still do our rigid cleaning / nozzle check pattern. I would rather overdue it and not loose a head and use film again for three days. Ugh.
And for environment variables here goes. Our screen room is right beside our CTS room. Separate rooms by one door. Screen room is at 80 degrees at 32 - 36 percent humidity. The CTS room is at around 45 - 50 percent humidity with a temp at 75 -78 degrees. So far all is well. We were told to not have the CTS unit at a temp over 80 degrees. If so you will loose your head over time at a faster rate. Any questions and I will be happy to respond to the best of my knowledge.
My CTS is in my warehouse and it hits 100-110 in there in the summer. In the winter it gets down to maybe 40 degrees in there. It does not have its own room.
We installed this machine in 2014 I think? We are still on the original print head. Every time I mention this I expect the current head will die in the next 5 minutes but we are still trucking along.....knock on wood.
We do not have a back up film printer at all.
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That's amazing and bananas at the same time. What would you do though when it does die? Can your clients wait two or maybe three days? That would kill us
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That's amazing and bananas at the same time. What would you do though when it does die? Can your clients wait two or maybe three days? That would kill us
If my CTS head died, I would simply overnight a new head. We'd lose some time. Rarely would that be a major major issue, but ya we at times have deadlines that can't move and that is alway sketchy. I have even considered buying a head just to have.
I have to trust in M&R.
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I did overnight the head. Sometimes techs are just backed up so that is a scenario that can happen. I just don't trust myself enough yet with digital but next head replacement I think I will do. But wow, that's awesome your head is still kicking. What ink - K? All the stories of heads lasting must be before the Gen4 heads.
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I did overnight the head. Sometimes techs are just backed up so that is a scenario that can happen. I just don't trust myself enough yet with digital but next head replacement I think I will do. But wow, that's awesome your head is still kicking. What ink - K? All the stories of heads lasting must be before the Gen4 heads.
Mine are the Gen 4 Heads I believe. But I could be wrong. We are using the original ink still.
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I did overnight the head. Sometimes techs are just backed up so that is a scenario that can happen. I just don't trust myself enough yet with digital but next head replacement I think I will do. But wow, that's awesome your head is still kicking. What ink - K? All the stories of heads lasting must be before the Gen4 heads.
Mine are the Gen 4 Heads I believe. But I could be wrong. We are using the original ink still.
Wow that's awesome. There needs to be a thumbs up button on here!!!
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So just wanted to recap this post we are back up and running. We were only down for 3 days and jammed out a lot of film in those days haha. I remember someone on here a few months back posting they were ditching their film output since they just got a new CTS unit and lots agreed. Just my opinion and now experience we would have been out a ton of money if we didn't have that film back up those three days.
So anyway, new head is in and now running the T6 ink. So far all is fine as it should be. It's a new head. Cleanings do seem to be easier but again it is a new head. According to the new ink cleanings / nozzle checks should be easier and less frequent but we will still do our rigid cleaning / nozzle check pattern. I would rather overdue it and not loose a head and use film again for three days. Ugh.
And for environment variables here goes. Our screen room is right beside our CTS room. Separate rooms by one door. Screen room is at 80 degrees at 32 - 36 percent humidity. The CTS room is at around 45 - 50 percent humidity with a temp at 75 -78 degrees. So far all is well. We were told to not have the CTS unit at a temp over 80 degrees. If so you will loose your head over time at a faster rate. Any questions and I will be happy to respond to the best of my knowledge.
Brandon,
How has the T6 been for you since this post? Winter came and I've experienced a change in results with the T6 and wanted to update people.
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Hey Dan,
I think the other thread above this has way more action and answers but all is okay so far. There have been a few slight issues but it is avoidable. Let me say this - find your shop and emulsion sweet spot when it comes to humidity and temp and stay there year round. Also with screens exposed and taped. It's easier for us since New Orleans is a fish bowl and we don't have these dramatic swings in weather. It's hot and humid all year most of the time. When it drops temp we have a day or so notice and can think / plan ahead for it. You guys with 4 seasons, get busy documenting.
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I can understand your frustration. There is nothing like having the same issues over a long period of time with the (supposed) experts not being able to find anything.
It's there, (the answer) but it's something that they just don't see yet and don't know where/how to attack the problem. They really are good at what they do, but you have to remember, these DTS machines are not like a Ford or Chevy. They haven't been around for years and years with every home mechanic being able to know them inside and out. The techs are far and few between and takes some time to get really familiar with them. They are skilled techs and even the newest Tech knows more about these machines that anyone on the outside. Some have said "Awe, it's just a printer", but it's more, much more than just a printer. Simple yet complex. I know Alex very well and he is indeed a good guy. He is excellent at his job and he will send in the most available yet the most skilled for the specific problem at hand.
Your problem will get fixed. They always do. The question is, how long will that take.
At least they will get it fixed once they figure out the issue. Imagine having a press with bent shaft and a manufacturer refusing to fix it!!!
pierre
Two things:
1. I remember hearing about your press having a defect. Is the shaft what you’re talking about? Curious how you could tell it is bent.
2. Are you still doing the film readings for people? I’ve been trying to find the right tool but have had zero luck.
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