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screen printing => General Screen Printing => Topic started by: screenxpress on December 03, 2011, 11:35:14 AM
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My old platens were warped. Probably from the guy I bought the press from that didn't have a dryer. At the time, I was using smaller screens and had already made smaller platens and was fine for a few years. I'm moving on to Newmans and really need the original size platens and was going to make some like I've done before, just original size. So here's the question.
Rectangle or Tapered (Neck)?
I've always had and made tapered and can't see how rectangular would be easy for loading.
Maybe I should have asked Andy to put up a voting board.....hmmmmm? Dam, never mind. I found it!! :)
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One big advantage to rectangular, no neck shape is it's easier to shift a shirt sideways when necessary. At least it's easier to keep it straight when shifting sideways.
It's also a lot easier to actually make them.
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Do you just line them up to the bottom of the collar then?
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I think that most folks have marks that correspond to the collar position, just as you do on your shaped boards.
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I like rectangular.
I pull the shirt onto the pallet 'till the shoulder seam hits, then back it off equal distance on both sides.
Rectangular works better for tote bags and some other items, too.
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Rectangular works better for tote bags and some other items, too.
Putting on a neck shaped board backwards is a good trick for bags as well.
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I like the Vastex style the best. They are rectangle w/a metal bolted on neck guide. I did not like the Workhorse style tapered ones. I did not give a good visual for distance from edge of platen to shoulder seems. With a rectangle platen you have a true straight edge to line up to. But I'm sure if you are used to it one way, it is the way you would prefer.
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My favorites were the American style platens on an old Rototex I started out with.
They were square platens that mounted to a top plate (the top plate mounted to the bracket with the bolts for leveling, a little involved but stick with me here, I couldn't find a picture) on that plate between the platen and the bracket there was a little wooden neck with a round top, smooth and finished. I believe the concept here is similar to the one on vastex presses I've seen or used. You load shirts just like a regular square platen but you have that neck to help guide your placement of the collar. Very handy visually speaking, very quick to work with and accurate loading without moving the platen position.
The reason I like this style best is you get the alignment assistance of a v-necked platen but without leaving the collar up on the shirtboard. This fools with your off-contact and will have you burning up collars with the flash. I don't even like having the sleeve seams of smaller Ts up on the platen.
The same could be achieved by tapping a few threads on the underside of any other style platen and mounting a little wooden or metal piece. With the mdf boards you could just screw on a piece of whatever and put markings on there to indicate where to throw the collar edge.
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rectangle give you the most surface area to print on making over sized prints fairly easy to do.
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Not necessarily.
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I like the Vastex style the best. They are rectangle w/a metal bolted on neck guide. I did not like the Workhorse style tapered ones. I did not give a good visual for distance from edge of platen to shoulder seems. With a rectangle platen you have a true straight edge to line up to. But I'm sure if you are used to it one way, it is the way you would prefer.
Same here. I've got the platen tape marked for the neck, a centerline, and on the left centerline and pocket width marked for heart prints.
Coupled with this, I finally got off my lazy ass and worked up a film overlay with my own registration marks for the Vastex screen jig that fits to their standard platens. I've started using this instead of the pin-registration acetate, print my films out with matching registration marks, do the double-stick tape, and I'm within a hair of all screens registering now. Not dead on, but it's shortened my setup time noticeably. I've got the same neck hole, pocket outline and centerlines on my art template for positioning, then turn it off before running the film.
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I like rectangle and I like my collar to hang off the edge so there's never an issue with a collar getting scorched from a flash or what not.
I put my boards in one place and never move them, i locate the print positioning on the screen via my grid template. If the print starts 3" down I use the 3" line and so forth.
This way all screens drop in the press the same, the shirt is always in the same place and the only thing that moves, is the art position.
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Auto's use rectangle , hope to someday get one so I started making mine rectangle on the manual so I'm use to it.
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John, what do you do then to lower the location of the art on the larger sizes? We often pull theIn collar further back from the platen edge to achieve this without adjusting the patterns. This involves eyeballing though and can be inconsistent, hence my vote for the vastex or american style with the dropped neck.
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I learned on a Hopkins then bought a Chameleon. I couldn't imagine having to use rectangular boards all the time so I popped a metal blade into my jig saw and cut the neck shape out of one of the brand new 1/4" aluminum platen. I stopped using that abomination ::) within the month and when I did have to, it was put on backwards. Printing with colars and drawstrings and eyelets off the board was a whole lot cleaner for me and gave me more control.
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Also like John said having the collar off the board is essential for having high tension screens so the squeegee does not go over the seam maybe causing a screen to break.... and like Tom said it gives you more control over all printing variables.
sam
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So, how do you guys adjust for the difference in print location between a youth medium and an adult XXL (not an unreasonable range). Do you just start out eyeballing a greater over hang for the big shirts, and move the smaller ones in incrementally, once again by eye?
Seems to me that this is where a marked, dropped or recessed neck thingie would be quite useful.
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So, how do you guys adjust for the difference in print location between a youth medium and an adult XXL (not an unreasonable range).
I think that is a completely unreasonable range for one board. I'd throw on youth boards for youth, adult for adult, etc.
I even considered buying a "XXL+" board at one point, (like 18" wide or more) just to make printing big sizes that much quicker.
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So, how do you guys adjust for the difference in print location between a youth medium and an adult XXL (not an unreasonable range).
I think that is a completely unreasonable range for one board. I'd throw on youth boards for youth, adult for adult, etc.
I even considered buying a "XXL+" board at one point, (like 18" wide or more) just to make printing big sizes that much quicker.
Okay, let me re-phrase.
So, how do you guys adjust for the difference in print location between an adult small and an adult XXL (not an unreasonable range). Do you just start out eyeballing a greater over hang for the big shirts, and move the smaller ones in incrementally, once again by eye?
Seems to me that this is where a marked, dropped or recessed neck thingie would be quite useful.
I do know that some don't adjust positions depending on shirt size, but that's almost enough for another thread.
And, the "not unreasonable range" was from personal observation and experience running event shirts.
It was not deemed reasonable to change out twelve or fourteen boards for a few dozen youth shirts in a run of 500 or so, when the normal boards accommodated youth medium and larger.
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a 16" board will handle those sizes easily. I do it all the time. My max print size is 13" wide, so why would I get platens wider than 16? I have 4" wide, 12" wide and 16" wide boards. Covers everything I need it to.
If it's left chest size, I move them over by eye. Full front I just pull them off further.
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So, how do you guys adjust for the difference in print location between an adult small and an adult XXL (not an unreasonable range). Do you just start out eyeballing a greater over hang for the big shirts, and move the smaller ones in incrementally, once again by eye?
3" down from the collar is 3" down no matter the size of shirt. The only thing I change is horizontal position to locate a left chest on varied sizes.
By never moving from my position of collar off, it's a removed variable from the process. If forces myself and any screen maker in the future to review the order and know the placement. I also place text on all my films for the color and height. this way it's a triple backup system and if it's put in the wrong place on the screen, I know who made the mistake and how to address it.
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So, how do you guys adjust for the difference in print location between an adult small and an adult XXL (not an unreasonable range). Do you just start out eyeballing a greater over hang for the big shirts, and move the smaller ones in incrementally, once again by eye?
3" down from the collar is 3" down no matter the size of shirt. The only thing I change is horizontal position to locate a left chest on varied sizes.
By never moving from my position of collar off, it's a removed variable from the process. If forces myself and any screen maker in the future to review the order and know the placement. I also place text on all my films for the color and height. this way it's a triple backup system and if it's put in the wrong place on the screen, I know who made the mistake and how to address it.
I'm surprised none of your clients have taken issue with this and also that you find that acceptable for a print run across many sizes. Having a fixed location from the collar may work for some art across all sizes in a run but certainly not all. We tend to adjust the image up/down every 2 sizes but again this wholly depends on the art.
I'm with Frog, as I posted earlier, I think this is where a recessed neck board with incremental markings could shine. You could still have your location variable locked in this way in pre-press as well as in platen position as the height change occurs by pulling the collar to the proper mark.
We try not to change out boards but often need to break out the 12"ers when the job involves flashing or off contact is critical. We also print children's wear fairly often so it's something we've adjusted to. I think a proper set of platen racks would really help ease any pain of change over. We have full sets of:
4x22
8x22
10x22 (only 4 of these)
12x22
16x22
16x22 zip hoodie or placket boards (only 4 again)
Oh and that one 6" board I hacked down with the circ saw.
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So, how do you guys adjust for the difference in print location between a youth medium and an adult XXL (not an unreasonable range). Do you just start out eyeballing a greater over hang for the big shirts, and move the smaller ones in incrementally, once again by eye?
Seems to me that this is where a marked, dropped or recessed neck thingie would be quite useful.
When letting the shirt hang off what we did was align the bottom of the collar to the edge of the platen. Works perfectly and doesn't slow down production speed one bit. If you need to adjust for shirt size / print location, our auto had a nice ruler which came with the press and could easily adjust all 12 palettes in about 2-5 min without changing the actual hang of the shirt.
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Well I have to say I'm surprised.
I expected a vote to be heavy one way or the other. But the vote is almost exactly even.
Since I'm going to make them like I did the "shorties". Out of MDF with Formica tops and bottoms, I think I'll try making rectangles and if I find I can't get used to them loading, I'll just make a new set. The voting ends tomorrow. Thanks all.
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I'm surprised none of your clients have taken issue with this and also that you find that acceptable for a print run across many sizes.
suprised that a client who asked for their print location to start 4" down from the collar would want anything other than 4" down.. I can hear the phone call now.. uhh I asked for the print to be X inches down.. but this small is x inches down and this xxl is X inches down.. what's up??
My question is why are you making more work for yourself by moving the shirt around your pretty line and marking covered platens?? Mine have paper on them.. that's it
I have over 6 million prints under my belt from my contract printing days and I never moved a small down an inch or an xxl up an inch. It doesn't make sense to a contract guy printing 4500 shirts a day. Just put it on the board here, that's all you have to do.
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My question is why are you making more work for yourself by moving the shirt around your pretty line and marking covered platens?? Mine have paper on them.. that's it
I have over 6 million prints under my belt from my contract printing days and I never moved a small down an inch or an xxl up an inch. It doesn't make sense to a contract guy printing 4500 shirts a day. Just put it on the board here, that's all you have to do.
95/
Same here. Never a issue and have done it this way since 95/96. no clue as to how many prints, way too many though ;D
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My art proofs have the measurement from the collar included on it, so I don't adjust between sizes either, unless specifically requested.
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Many years ago - perhaps some of you recall that we offered a choice of shapes from Shape A through Shape E. All of the different pallet shapes have pros and cons. We do still offer these shape options by request however we have standardized to rectangular in our solid aluminum and rubber inventory. In our Less expensive pallets - we have standardized those to a Shape D ( load side shoulder alignment )
One thing I haven't seen referenced that we have heard through the years - when loading shirts on an automatic - it helps many variables and increased production when you have the pallet sizes that are correct for the shirt sizes. The main reason is that the load is accurate and quick. That is - when the pallet fills out the shirt - it's much easier to see if the shirt is aligned properly.
Around 1995 - we offered an expandable pallet. This pallet had side wings that incrementally adjusted out to assist in alignment. I thought is was a good idea - but we had very few inquiries about it and dropped it from the product line. A few years later we offered the option of attaching a part to the underside of the pallet that would stick out past front edge and provide a neck alignment guide.
We have discussed here the two most popular shapes for t-shirt loading - but there are certainly many, many more. We have researched and developed shapes that work with almost every square inch of almost every wearable that can be printed. When the shaping and substrate is size matched - it is easiest to load productively and with repeatability.
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After enough years of loading shirts it becomes quite easy to align no matter the shirt size to platen size ratio. Like someone already said pull the shirt all the way on grab the shoulder seams and pull back equally till you get where you want it. Very fast and easy, rectangle is the way to go in my opinion.
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Hey Action I sent you a message on those Workhorse brackets, they look way more stable than the originals.
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Hey Action I sent you a message on those Workhorse brackets, they look way more stable than the originals.
They definitely are more stable. The picture you are referring to shows our standard manual pallet bracket assembly. It is comprised of an M&R Style pallet mount & manual bracket adapters. That is - all of your M&R Style pallets can be used on almost any manual machine. When you buy pallets for your manual machines - they can be used on almost all brands of automatics also. This design adds function while future-proofing your pallets. That is - changing or upgrading machinery won't obsolete your pallets.
The shape of the bracket adds strength to the pallet and will keep it flat for a longer period of time.
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Action.. does that bracket work on Lawson. I want to upgrade to Alum boards on my lawson HD max.
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Well I have to say I'm surprised.
I expected a vote to be heavy one way or the other. But the vote is almost exactly even.
Since I'm going to make them like I did the "shorties". Out of MDF with Formica tops and bottoms, I think I'll try making rectangles and if I find I can't get used to them loading, I'll just make a new set. The voting ends tomorrow. Thanks all.
More than a "vote of preference" I see this as a report of what folks have on their presses, more than likely, the style that they came with for the most part.
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Action.. does that bracket work on Lawson. I want to upgrade to Alum boards on my lawson HD max.
What is the distance from the top of the pallet arm to the top of the pallet? The MBA setup works when that dimension is between 3/4" to 1.5". I believe that your machine is one that will not accommodate this bracket.
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Hey Action I sent you a message on those Workhorse brackets, they look way more stable than the originals.
They definitely are more stable. The picture you are referring to shows our standard manual pallet bracket assembly. It is comprised of an M&R Style pallet mount & manual bracket adapters. That is - all of your M&R Style pallets can be used on almost any manual machine. When you buy pallets for your manual machines - they can be used on almost all brands of automatics also. This design adds function while future-proofing your pallets. That is - changing or upgrading machinery won't obsolete your pallets.
The shape of the bracket adds strength to the pallet and will keep it flat for a longer period of time.
I need some pricing just the brackets not the plattens. endlessink@gmail.com Thanks!
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What is the distance from the top of the pallet arm to the top of the pallet? The MBA setup works when that dimension is between 3/4" to 1.5". I believe that your machine is one that will not accommodate this bracket.
Tis why I asked. It's a few inches due to a weird bracket they use on the manuals. Thanks!
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we are in a little bit different situation with the MHM (v shape with quick platten position adjustment)
The plattens are tapered and we load the shirt all the way to the end for most of prints. By all the way, I mean we run the shirt as far as it will go and butt the shoulder seams against the edge of the plattens. Once in the groove, I can load the shirts straight on without having to adjust them left or right. Every now and then, it is off, but I can tell just by the way it slides on. Doing it this way, we can run the press at 1000 pieces per hour. Unfortunately, I don't have the stamina to go very long at that pace, and we tend to run out of shirts after a short time. The most we did was about 1300 shirts in about an hour and 15 min. For the most part, I have given up the high speed runs after seeing Tony's and another big shop. We are after the sustained rate and are loading at 300-500 an hour on longer runs now. But I digress, back to the original discussion. . .
On the MHM, the plattens are unlocked with a push button and are very easy to move in and out. On orders over 100 pieces, we usually move the plattens to keep the shirts loaded all the way to the seams but still change the distance from the collar. By loading all the shirts all the way to the seams and not having to back them up, we are able to eliminate one extra step and print faster. There is return on the investment here, and if the orders are small the time it takes to adjust the plattens might not be cost effective. In that case we just pull the shirt back some more. We do have the lasers set up, so it is very easy to see how far the shirt has to go. It is easy to do it this way, but there is no doubt that printing with the V shaped platten can be significantly faster!
pierre
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I prefer rectangular. I've always had them but I have loaded shirts on the other styles on several occasions at other shop visits. We load and set everything up like John does but larger shirts (xxl+) we'll have a half inch or a tad bit more of overhang. I used to move the larger shirts to the right on left chests until I noticed on my 2xl that I've printed for myself that the left chest is too far left so we don't move them as much, an inch at the most.
I don't like the collar to hit the screens when printing, it affects the off contact, as well as the pressure needed to shear the ink. We load the shirt all the way on, then grab the shoulder seams and pull back till the collar just falls off the edge of the pallet. If we do a wide range of sizes we might pull the smaller shirts down further on the pallet with the collar coming into contact with the screen, but only if it's a minimum amount. We can move our pallets an inch or two in less than a minute for the whole machine so that's what we do.
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we are in a little bit different situation with the MHM (v shape with quick platten position adjustment)
The plattens are tapered and we load the shirt all the way to the end for most of prints. By all the way, I mean we run the shirt as far as it will go and butt the shoulder seams against the edge of the plattens. Once in the groove, I can load the shirts straight on without having to adjust them left or right. Every now and then, it is off, but I can tell just by the way it slides on. Doing it this way, we can run the press at 1000 pieces per hour. Unfortunately, I don't have the stamina to go very long at that pace, and we tend to run out of shirts after a short time. The most we did was about 1300 shirts in about an hour and 15 min. For the most part, I have given up the high speed runs after seeing Tony's and another big shop. We are after the sustained rate and are loading at 300-500 an hour on longer runs now. But I digress, back to the original discussion. . .
On the MHM, the plattens are unlocked with a push button and are very easy to move in and out. On orders over 100 pieces, we usually move the plattens to keep the shirts loaded all the way to the seams but still change the distance from the collar. By loading all the shirts all the way to the seams and not having to back them up, we are able to eliminate one extra step and print faster. There is return on the investment here, and if the orders are small the time it takes to adjust the plattens might not be cost effective. In that case we just pull the shirt back some more. We do have the lasers set up, so it is very easy to see how far the shirt has to go. It is easy to do it this way, but there is no doubt that printing with the V shaped platten can be significantly faster!
pierre
If you put soft top rubber onto your MHM Style Pallets - than you can create a collar easement as seen here. Adding soft top rubber to Honeycomb Aluminum has numerous advantages. The easement will eliminate many of the challenges of loading and allow you to print right up to the edge of the collar and shoulder seams.
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we are in a little bit different situation with the MHM (v shape with quick platten position adjustment)
The plattens are tapered and we load the shirt all the way to the end for most of prints. By all the way, I mean we run the shirt as far as it will go and butt the shoulder seams against the edge of the plattens. Once in the groove, I can load the shirts straight on without having to adjust them left or right. Every now and then, it is off, but I can tell just by the way it slides on. Doing it this way, we can run the press at 1000 pieces per hour. Unfortunately, I don't have the stamina to go very long at that pace, and we tend to run out of shirts after a short time. The most we did was about 1300 shirts in about an hour and 15 min. For the most part, I have given up the high speed runs after seeing Tony's and another big shop. We are after the sustained rate and are loading at 300-500 an hour on longer runs now. But I digress, back to the original discussion. . .
On the MHM, the plattens are unlocked with a push button and are very easy to move in and out. On orders over 100 pieces, we usually move the plattens to keep the shirts loaded all the way to the seams but still change the distance from the collar. By loading all the shirts all the way to the seams and not having to back them up, we are able to eliminate one extra step and print faster. There is return on the investment here, and if the orders are small the time it takes to adjust the plattens might not be cost effective. In that case we just pull the shirt back some more. We do have the lasers set up, so it is very easy to see how far the shirt has to go. It is easy to do it this way, but there is no doubt that printing with the V shaped platten can be significantly faster!
pierre
If you put soft top rubber onto your MHM Style Pallets - than you can create a collar easement as seen here. Adding soft top rubber to Honeycomb Aluminum has numerous advantages. The easement will eliminate many of the challenges of loading and allow you to print right up to the edge of the collar and shoulder seams.
This looks nice. Benefits that Pierre described in quick loading but with less hassle from the collar. I was under the impression that rubber on honeycomb wasn't too hot for flashing?
My question is why are you making more work for yourself by moving the shirt around your pretty line and marking covered platens?? Mine have paper on them.. that's it
I have over 6 million prints under my belt from my contract printing days and I never moved a small down an inch or an xxl up an inch. It doesn't make sense to a contract guy printing 4500 shirts a day. Just put it on the board here, that's all you have to do.
Haha, alright then John, just the difference in our shops, the overall grade of work we do and our clients. Contract is certainly different, agreed. That's very nice you never adjusted for an optimal print location in over 6 million prints but would never fly around here for even a day. Many clients simply ask for us to "do what looks good" on the range of sizes and our orders contain a great range very often. There is more to it than just throwing shirts on the board for us as well as others working retail.
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I dig the rubber top knockout for the MHM.
To back up Pierre's mention of pulling the shirt on once with the MHM, that I really enjoyed and it enabled me to run the machine at capacity all day every day. It was also the length of the board that helped keep the shirts square, almost 4' boards on the 3000 series machines.
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Thanks to all for the opinions and the voting, which is now locked.