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screen printing => Waterbase and Discharge => Topic started by: mjrprint on December 13, 2011, 07:53:24 AM
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So here is the story. My boss has had me experimenting with discharge inks for the last month or two. I have pulled off a few 4 color designs and some one color stuff, 3-5 pieces per test maybe. Now my boss is the kinda guy who will jump headfirst as soon as he sees something he likes and I can pull it off. Before I get to the next part let me tell you I work in the collegiate industry and we actually produce our own garments which will help explain this next part. Soooooo now that I have successfully pulled off a few prints he is considering printing our one line of womens tee with all discharge inks. To give you an idea we printed 150,000 of these last year!! You can guess that I am crapping my pants right now because if anything were to happen or go wrong guess who would be to blame and who should have known everything about discharge in two months.
Now there is another owner that is not about this idea and has read up on all the problems associated with discharge inks. He would also be the one opposing the change. I am in the middle of this whole arguement with one telling me to figure it out and the other telling me I better make it perfectly clear to boss "A" what can go wrong. Ain't life grand lol. So I am asking you experts for any help, advice, pros & cons, and whatever else you can come up with. I am also doing some research on my own and coming up with a presentation for these two. Any help from the gang would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!!
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I would try and message (not massage) tony.
The biggest problem I've had with discharge is stencil failure. There is a permanent stencil hardener....get that.
The other problem I've had is buildup on the back of the screens. I think this was a plasticharge problem though. I would avoid multi-color plasticharge.
I wish I had more for you. Tony is the guy when it comes to this stuff.
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The main thing that I see constantly cropping up is that some shirts just naturally discharge better than others.
By making your own garments, you could have a little more control over this in that, you could, at the very least check batches of fabric before committing to the process for the specific shirt.
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Hi folks I'm hijacking this thread temporarily to let you know that I have moved on to a new co. in Nashville specializing in music merch starting January. Pls understand the relo and new job is going to preoccupy me and I may lay low on the boards for a few if not several months. In the meantime I will try later to better respond to the thread.
Your issue is not unique BTW.
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Yup stencil failure is huge and like mentioned there are hardeners yet I would look carefully before using them. Some make it so you can't remove the stencil at all. We had great success with post exposing for a good amount of time and letting the screen sit in the sun for a full day to help harden the stencil.
Also some fabricks and brands discharge better than others depending on what brand of discharge you use.
From out tests, Wilfflex's NF Discharge worked the best with Gikdan T's. It gave the brightest and most consistent discharge over all the other brands. Plus the NF is a Non Formaldehyde discharge which should help with your not so loving the idea other boss.
I would highly suggest making sure your dryer is vented well though no matter what type or brand you use. The smell is a little intense yet the NF isnt all that bad. You can definitely smell it yet nothing like all the horror stories you've read.
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Discharge is tough but fun.
Since you are having your own garments manufactured, you have some good control there. Work closely with your dye house to make sure you are getting dye reactive or discharge friendly dyes. Work with them to use the best dyes for discharge printing.
You will need to treat almost every ink mix as a custom mix. Be prepared to put it in the screen, test it, then pull it off the screen and remix if you have to.
As previous posters mentioned, make sure you have the right WB specific emulsion or hardener.
Use a ton of tape.
Stay on top of your QC, a QC person on press and someone with good eyes keeping an eye on every shirt at the end of the dryer too. Since you can't really see the print until it's cured, it's hard to spot QC issues until it's cured.
Mark it up a little, and be prepared to spend extra time on it... That being said, it's well worth the extra troubles...
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Ok real quick......use the CCI 25WR emulsion and hardner and post expose. Others can work but this is best for me. Be sure to use leftover emulsion as block out aroud the edges.
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ALso make sure you are using a great dryer. The more heat the better the discharge.
and excuse all my typos. I'm a freaking artist and still learning the English language, lol
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artists are the worst with typos..and hookers are the worst with discharge. Eww, I went there.
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artists are the worst with typos..and hookers are the worst with discharge. Eww, I went there.
Bah that is awesome. lol
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Thank you all for all the info so far. All great points.
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For the latest test I printed a two color simple design that was red and white on black. Turned out great and I wash tested all the shirts. The white looks almost cracked a bit. My thoughts are that I may have layed down too much ink and printed with a plas technique by habit. Any ideas what might have caused the cracking?
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it might be not enough penetration. Try pushing the ink in a little more.
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Yeah, not enough penetration. At that volume I assume you are on an automatic press.
Increase the downward pressure on your squeegee compared to that of plastisol, also give it a more aggressive angle rather than the upright angle needed to shear plastisol.
Print on contact, lay that screen right on the shirt/pallet.
The crust is just the residue of heavy pigment load, or a pigment load that was not pushed far enough into the garment fibers. It would wash out with the first wash, but you don't want to do that, so what you need to do is bury those pigments in the garment, right now, much of it is just sitting on top of the garment.
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Look on the inside of the shirt and see how well the white penetrated. Many whites can
benefit quite a bit from adding %5-%10 water and/or penetrant/printgen.
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What type of dryer are you using and how long is the shirt being introduced to the heat?
On our auto we would use a second quartz at the last station for one last pounding of intense heat before pulling and running through the dryer. We also bumped up the temp on the dryer to 400+ for optimum heat and discharging.
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were you worried about baking out the water before the discharge was complete?
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Dryer is an M&R mini sprint 2000 and I set it so the shirt was in there for 2.5 minutes at 350 degrees. I was printing manually and the screen was drying up a little bit which makes sense that I didnt get the ink into the shirt.
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Printing waterbased manually is tougher than I would have thought. Hard to get heavy pressure and a low
angle. For me at least, but maybe it's that learning something on an auto/manual and then switching to the other phenomenon.
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I was surprised at how hard I had to put pressure on the squeegee. You would think it would require minimal effort.
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I was surprised at how hard I had to put pressure on the squeegee. You would think it would require minimal effort.
Not with discharge.
For manual printing you need to perfect your stencil making so you can squeeze max detail from lower mesh counts. This will allow better ink penetration AND save your wrists.
Also, adding Printgen C softener and a little water always helps.
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I will def have to try the water addition.
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what is the best way to mix the components together? - start with base, then add dye, mix, add agent, mix, then water? or mix agent and water together then add to dye base mix?
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I have been mixing the base and color first, then adding the activator, some penetrant, and water and power mixing that with a drill.
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We mix the agent at the end. We always mix the agent with warm water rather than cold water, we keep one of those little electric tea kettle water heaters in the ink room, hot, all day long just for this purpose. It really helps. For larger ink mixes, also try mixing in the activator in two parts. So, once you've added your dyes to the base, mix a little, then dump in half your warm activator solution, mix thoroughly, dump the other half in and mix thoroughly again.
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we use the sericol texcharge system with great results.all the inks are standard colors and 5 florecents. with this you can mix any pms color or run them straight out of the container. sericol also has a downloadable formula guide for mixing. also the dirasol 916 emulsion works great without using hardner.these guys have been making waterbase/discharge inks and emulsion for many years and the results are really nice.
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Don`t mean to break the topic.
I am not a discharge expert
but before you dive into discharge work getting to know the ins and outs
of the process
I would make sure BOTH BOSSES ARE IN THE SAME PAGE
otherwise things can go sour before you know it
you are puting a lot of work ;)
best wishes Gabe
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you are going about this completely the wrong way...........
get you azz in front of both bosses at the same time and try this approach..
No 1 you are each my boss and I am getting mixed messages you say go and you say no it is not up to me to figure it out. decide and advise . I need to know 3 things in a unified voice ...WHAT DO YOU WANT.......
WHEN DO YOU WANT IT..............
HOW MUCH DO YOU WANT TO BE INVOLVED........
If you don't do at least this you are the fall guy dead man, doesn't matter which one kills you as you will be just as dead!!!!!
No 2
Tell them you are a smart guy, you have made some very good progress on the discharge thing guessing and experiomenting your way through but you are not a god who can pull new magic out of your AZZ.
If they want to implement a new process to you and them tell them you are the guy AFTER THEY GET YOU SOME TECHNICAL, AND ENVIRONMENTAL TRAINING.
F-THEM what if they need a simple operation like a tooth pulled do they come to you and say you better figure it out because you need to pull my tooth by noon tommorow...F no they go to a skilled trained professional.
NO 3 ANY BUSINESS THAT WOULD PUT AN EMPLOYEE IN THIS POSITION IS RUN BY DICKWEEDS......learn the discharge process let them pay for it then go get another job or a freaking raise because it sounde like these clowns could not wipe thie ass let alone run a business. Training advancement and progress come top down....they are simply whipping a good horse to death...this is not your problem.
No4 I quote you..."I am crapping my pants right now because if anything were to happen or go wrong guess who would be to blame and who should have known everything about discharge in two months". Did you ever hear of a guy called HITLER I thing he is your a-hole boss and his personality is overpowering you and the OTHER BOSS leaving your nuts up for grabs
if what you say is really true and you get your nuts handed to you because can't master a difficult process that no one else in the joint can manage including the owners take these freaking loosers to the damn labor board and F them if you have the skills and wits you seem to have with the discharge work you did for these clowns you have excellent skills get your self another job working for a boss(s) who at least treat you like a human being...............if what you say is true run and run like hell sweat shops are illeagal.
mooseman
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you are going about this completely the wrong way...........
get you azz in front of both bosses at the same time and try this approach..
No 1 you are each my boss and I am getting mixed messages you say go and you say no it is not up to me to figure it out. decide and advise . I need to know 3 things in a unified voice ...WHAT DO YOU WANT.......
WHEN DO YOU WANT IT..............
HOW MUCH DO YOU WANT TO BE INVOLVED........
If you don't do at least this you are the fall guy dead man, doesn't matter which one kills you as you will be just as dead!!!!!
No 2
Tell them you are a smart guy, you have made some very good progress on the discharge thing guessing and experiomenting your way through but you are not a god who can pull new magic out of your AZZ.
If they want to implement a new process to you and them tell them you are the guy AFTER THEY GET YOU SOME TECHNICAL, AND ENVIRONMENTAL TRAINING.
F-THEM what if they need a simple operation like a tooth pulled do they come to you and say you better figure it out because you need to pull my tooth by noon tommorow...F no they go to a skilled trained professional.
NO 3 ANY BUSINESS THAT WOULD PUT AN EMPLOYEE IN THIS POSITION IS RUN BY DICKWEEDS......learn the discharge process let them pay for it then go get another job or a freaking raise because it sounde like these clowns could not wipe thie ass let alone run a business. Training advancement and progress come top down....they are simply whipping a good horse to death...this is not your problem.
No4 I quote you..."I am crapping my pants right now because if anything were to happen or go wrong guess who would be to blame and who should have known everything about discharge in two months". Did you ever hear of a guy called HITLER I thing he is your a-hole boss and his personality is overpowering you and the OTHER BOSS leaving your nuts up for grabs
if what you say is really true and you get your nuts handed to you because can't master a difficult process that no one else in the joint can manage including the owners take these freaking loosers to the damn labor board and F them if you have the skills and wits you seem to have with the discharge work you did for these clowns you have excellent skills get your self another job working for a boss(s) who at least treat you like a human being...............if what you say is true run and run like hell sweat shops are illeagal.
mooseman
Mooseman, you made my day with that reply. So here is an update.....
I have figured out everything through massive amounts of testing and experimentation. I figured out all the color garments that we make which will not discharge properly (which took a lot of work to prove to boss #1) Nailed the additive down to 5% for best results, dryer speed, set discharge mixing area. I am now able to print 2-6 color jobs easily. They have both backed off after I lost my crap on them one day which was a gamble but I was pushed to my breaking point. It gets a bit stressful when I have to run the production floor, (50 employees) take care of all the equipment repair and maintenance, break down and crate up an auto for shipment, and print show samples and figure out how to print all new designs. Hell last week I cut out a wall, framed it out, installed jack posts for support, reframed and drywalled the whole thing. I feel like a swiss army knife at times lol. At least the pressure is off and I can relax a bit. Thanks for all the advise everyone. It helped greatly!
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matt....start your own shop. your swiss army knife comment is exactly what a lot of us are. you have to be able to do it all when you own your shop. it sounds like you are already doing that and not getting the recognition you deserve.
or partner with somebody and bring their shop to outstanding levels.
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you are going about this completely the wrong way...........
get you azz in front of both bosses at the same time and try this approach..
No 1 you are each my boss and I am getting mixed messages you say go and you say no it is not up to me to figure it out. decide and advise . I need to know 3 things in a unified voice ...WHAT DO YOU WANT.......
WHEN DO YOU WANT IT..............
HOW MUCH DO YOU WANT TO BE INVOLVED........
If you don't do at least this you are the fall guy dead man, doesn't matter which one kills you as you will be just as dead!!!!!
No 2
Tell them you are a smart guy, you have made some very good progress on the discharge thing guessing and experiomenting your way through but you are not a god who can pull new magic out of your AZZ.
If they want to implement a new process to you and them tell them you are the guy AFTER THEY GET YOU SOME TECHNICAL, AND ENVIRONMENTAL TRAINING.
F-THEM what if they need a simple operation like a tooth pulled do they come to you and say you better figure it out because you need to pull my tooth by noon tommorow...F no they go to a skilled trained professional.
NO 3 ANY BUSINESS THAT WOULD PUT AN EMPLOYEE IN THIS POSITION IS RUN BY DICKWEEDS......learn the discharge process let them pay for it then go get another job or a freaking raise because it sounde like these clowns could not wipe thie ass let alone run a business. Training advancement and progress come top down....they are simply whipping a good horse to death...this is not your problem.
No4 I quote you..."I am crapping my pants right now because if anything were to happen or go wrong guess who would be to blame and who should have known everything about discharge in two months". Did you ever hear of a guy called HITLER I thing he is your a-hole boss and his personality is overpowering you and the OTHER BOSS leaving your nuts up for grabs
if what you say is really true and you get your nuts handed to you because can't master a difficult process that no one else in the joint can manage including the owners take these freaking loosers to the damn labor board and F them if you have the skills and wits you seem to have with the discharge work you did for these clowns you have excellent skills get your self another job working for a boss(s) who at least treat you like a human being...............if what you say is true run and run like hell sweat shops are illeagal.
mooseman
Mooseman, you made my day with that reply. So here is an update.....
I have figured out everything through massive amounts of testing and experimentation. I figured out all the color garments that we make which will not discharge properly (which took a lot of work to prove to boss #1) Nailed the additive down to 5% for best results, dryer speed, set discharge mixing area. I am now able to print 2-6 color jobs easily. They have both backed off after I lost my crap on them one day which was a gamble but I was pushed to my breaking point. It gets a bit stressful when I have to run the production floor, (50 employees) take care of all the equipment repair and maintenance, break down and crate up an auto for shipment, and print show samples and figure out how to print all new designs. Hell last week I cut out a wall, framed it out, installed jack posts for support, reframed and drywalled the whole thing. I feel like a swiss army knife at times lol. At least the pressure is off and I can relax a bit. Thanks for all the advise everyone. It helped greatly!
EXACTLY why I started my own shop!
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what is the best way to mix the components together? - start with base, then add dye, mix, add agent, mix, then water? or mix agent and water together then add to dye base mix?
buy pre mixed colors and use a fomula guide provided then add your agent.. ;)
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[/quote]
Mooseman, you made my day with that reply. So here is an update.....
I have figured out everything through massive amounts of testing and experimentation. I figured out all the color garments that we make which will not discharge properly (which took a lot of work to prove to boss #1) Nailed the additive down to 5% for best results, dryer speed, set discharge mixing area. I am now able to print 2-6 color jobs easily. They have both backed off after I lost my crap on them one day which was a gamble but I was pushed to my breaking point. It gets a bit stressful when I have to run the production floor, (50 employees) take care of all the equipment repair and maintenance, break down and crate up an auto for shipment, and print show samples and figure out how to print all new designs. Hell last week I cut out a wall, framed it out, installed jack posts for support, reframed and drywalled the whole thing. I feel like a swiss army knife at times lol. At least the pressure is off and I can relax a bit. Thanks for all the advise everyone. It helped greatly!
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hey man thanks for the note...one more suggestion now that you know you can climb mountains that idiots throw in front of you your next peak is a money mountain, go find some financing, start your own shop use what you learned working for dick & weed and hire people and treat them like you wish the dickweeds you work for treated you....you will make millions!!!!!!!
The stuff you worked out would have killed a lesser man. There isn't a member on this board (that have employees) that wishes they could hire more peiople like you,
please always think about your future....the great things you are doing there come from your drive and talent not luck and chance.
Respectfully
mooseman
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Thank you Mooseman! I haven't gotten a pat on the back like that in a long time. I really appreciate the kind words and encouragement.