TSB
screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: Prosperi-Tees on December 17, 2011, 03:27:42 PM
-
1)8-10 colors
2)ac heads
3)servo driven
4)easiest to use
5)easiest/fastest setup)
6)best price/ feature mix
-
1)8-10 colors
2)ac heads
3)servo driven
4)easiest to use
5)easiest/fastest setup)
6)best price/ feature mix
Just went through this myself not even a year ago. M&R won my business and id make the exact same choice today. Given a local competitor that went with another brand and another public person that was installed at the same time as me with yet another brand and both of those are unhappy, yet I am happy just reinforces my choice. BOTH are now looking at M&R. So keep that in mind.
-
My plan for the next 2 years is to prepare to move to a larger shop and to upgrade my press. M&R is on the list for sure. What does a Sportsman run with ac/servo?
-
Just a thought.
If you are thinking of getting an 8 color auto because you have the money for a 8-clr, I would wait, hoof it for a little longer and get the ten color. The moment you get that 8 color you will be cursing yourself for not getting more heads. I did this with my 10-clr. I should have waited until I could get a 12 color.
With an 8-clr auto you will actually only be able to print 7 colors. Realistically ONLY 6 colors due to the NEED for a cool down station unless you run your press extremely slow.
With a 10 color you will at least have the option for TWO flash units which I guarantee you will wish you had on a lot of jobs so as to not have to revolve which ultimately adds a lot of time to your production.
-
My plan for the next 2 years is to prepare to move to a larger shop and to upgrade my press. M&R is on the list for sure. What does a Sportsman run with ac/servo?
Hit up Rich for a quote.
Just a thought.
If you are thinking of getting an 8 color auto because you have the money for a 8-clr, I would wait, hoof it for a little longer and get the ten color. The moment you get that 8 color you will be cursing yourself for not getting more heads. I did this with my 10-clr. I should have waited until I could get a 12 color.
A 10 or 12 color would have been nice for sure. But I wanted to stay within a budget and I did. I haven't had a request for a job I couldn't print yet, could more stations have made a job easier, for sure.
With an 8-clr auto you will actually only be able to print 7 colors. Realistically ONLY 6 colors due to the NEED for a cool down station unless you run your press extremely slow.
Context though, extremely slow on a Auto is often still much faster than a manual. I assume he is coming from a manual press. It's not the end of the world to have a job here and there not be able to run at full speed. I think of course if he has the coin buy as many colors as he can. I don't think that someone shouldn't automate because of being short money for 2 more colors.
With a 10 color you will at least have the option for TWO flash units which I guarantee you will wish you had on a lot of jobs so as to not have to revolve which ultimately adds a lot of time to your production.
We use 2 flashes at times to save a trip around on some jobs. But yes it does limit colors you can put in that job if you do that.
-
1)8-10 colors
2)ac heads
3)servo driven
4)easiest to use
5)easiest/fastest setup)
6)best price/ feature mix
MHM will hit the first 5 better than any/most presses on the market, but at the expense (pun intended!) of the 6th. One could argue that for the features you get it is a great price, but their entry level press is still more then double what the other charge.
There is a time and place for most presses out there and most of them are pretty darn good. You should look at where you are going and which one will fit you the best. The problem is, when you go auto, things change and the direction you had in mind sometimes does not really work out. . .
pierre
-
From what I have read on the MHM it does fit the bill but it really is double the price?
-
A loaded (fully featured) Sportsman vs. E-type new is very comparable cost wise, especially if you're talking monthly payments. E-types are "loaded" by default.
#5, easiest/fastest set up:
--Remember how pre-registration plays into this. Personally we would not consider a press manufactuarer that doesn't have an integrated pre-reg system.
Or at least press that could be *easily* adapted to a proven professional level pre-reg system.
We do lots and lots of small jobs and pre-reg is indispensable for this.
-
M&R is the best in my opinion all around from quality to service. Definitely upgrade to A/C heads as you will not need a huge air compressor and will save money ultimately. A/C heads run smoother and the press in extremely quieter than pneumatic heads.
As far as my suggestion on waiting to get the ten over the 8. everyone I have worked with that rushed to automate and got an 8 color wished they had a 10, like I did with my 10 wanting a 12.
Indeed you can slow the press to compensate for cool down and yes ultimately an auto will speed the shop. If you try getting into NFL Hot Market printing you will need to be able to print 7-9 colors or they will pass you by for the shop with more color capacity. I saw this first had with a couple competitors when printing Jaguars as well as Toyota Gator Bowl apparel.
Right now you might not feel the need for more heads yet I know when I got my 10 color I started seeing all sorts of more business including more colors.
Not trying to get you to NOT get a 8 -clr. Just trying to bring more info to the table for you to think about.
Also as mentioned, Go directly to Rich. Richard or Tim Foreman are the ones who will give you the deals and honestly all this info I spoke of was given to me by both Richard and Tim when I was thinking of purchasing my auto and at the time I was in the same boat. Had the money for a 8-clr and waited till I could save to get the ten. Luckily for me it only took about 7 months to save the extra money.
I did have two 6 color chameleons and employees running both at the time which helped. We were both custom and Contract printers, printing around 15-20 jobs a week at the time. Our average orders were 150-300 6-clr left chest & 6-Clr full backs manually.
-
Great info. What Manus have a pre reg system, the only ones I know of are M&R and MHM, any others? Like I said the upgrade is in my 2 year plan so no rush I just want to buy right when the time comes.
-
I believe you can buy a larger press, say a ten color, but only get eight heads. If money is a major concern now, you can do it this way and add one or two later. If money is a huge concern, it may not be the right time either.
-
I was going to buy a 6 and bought a 8. Sure would I love a 10 or 12? Hell ya, but I am a small timer. We run our auto 1-2 days a week many weeks a year.
Most of our jobs are 1-2 color front, 2-4 color rear. Fluids advice is good there, if your already doing 6 colors per side like him, I would have got a big dog 18/20 or something. I figure by the time I need a press with that many colors buying it wont be a problem.
-
I have ten and would like twelve. I would definitely not go below ten having owned a six already.
-
Also with set up the M&R tri lock is awesome. The hardest part of this is the little bit of extra time in the pre press area with the carrier sheets and all. Yet once you instill this into your production, set up on press for multi color jobs is minutes.
If you want more info David at Sun Screen print here in Jacksonville uses the tri-lock and wouldn't have it any other way. I am sure he would give you his opinion. You can see his shop here on their facebook page. I run all their seps and film output accept reorders form which Coudray Graphics used to do.
https://www.facebook.com/Sunscreenprint (https://www.facebook.com/Sunscreenprint)
Once you go Blue - You never go back!
-
Are there any differences in the MHM pre reg system and M&R triloc? How about Newmans Pre Reg system? Will they work with any auto?
-
MHM's system doesn't require carrier sheets or a pallet jig which is really cool. I've seen a video or 2 of a shop that uses it and it looks super easy and fast.
-
I just looked their FPU and the way the screen are in the press without clamps and it looks pretty dang impressive. My question would be how do ensure that the "sockets" or whatever you call them that you have to put on your screens are in the "exact" location from screen to screen or does it matter?
-
They have a tool that allows you to drill the holes in the exact position needed. Check out this video to see it.
MHM网版及菲林定位系统MHM PIN LOCK FILM POSITION UNIT - 视频 - 优酷视频 - 在线观看 (http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTQ1ODg3MDYw)
We do a ton of 1 color short run stuff which is why I always thought MHM would be ideal for us. Slap the screen in and it is already centered and ready to go.
-
Buy what you can afford now but I strongly suggest that you don't buy a six color. We will take our machine in trade and 8 colors and up have a high residual value. Actually we have a waiting list for them.
-
I've always seen six color autos as mere "mechanized manuals" while eight colors are knocking on the door of the "next level", and ten and twelve are what you get when you've "arrived" (or are planning on arriving)
But what do I know? I'm still pushing and pulling a squeegee myself! ;D
-
P-T. I am going through this whole thing now, have been for a few months. . .at the end of the day M&R wins for us. I am going to a 10 color sportsman. we bought a 6 color gauntlet to get our feet wet in the auto world, not knowing a thing about autos. I never saw an auto until I opened the crate in my parking lot. Now I know what features I like, and I don't mean just features of the press. Presses are like cars, sure they will all work but what happens when it doesn't? THAT is the selling point for me. You can call Rich on his cell phone. . how many companies can you say that about?. I have been talking to so many knowledgeable people, on and off these boards - gotta tell ya, many negative words said about many machines, nothing but positive about M&R. MHM is right there as well, I am really thinking about checking out Pierre's to sneak a peak of one - but as of now, in my head it's the sportsman.
do not buy a 6. . .
-
The short time I have had my 6/8 Javelin I can totally see that 6 colors wont be enough in the future and features are definitely NOT on the Jav. But the Jav will make me enough money in the next 2 years and get me somewhat used to auto printing and when I upgrade I want to make sure I get the best bang for the buck and the fastest press to setup and teardown.
-
Bang for buck, IMHO, would be to go with the press that is part of a complete system. 12 color Sportsman EX with a double Tri-Loc and a 6kw Tri-Light? Good to go.
-
My favorite subject!
I've continued to study autos and obviously critique our RPM on a daily basis so I feel that I know them all pretty well. I have not seen but one TAS machine and no P-tex in person but I think I've heard enough to base a solid opinion on them. I've said this a hundred times and I mean it as much now as I did 2 years ago, I honestly don't think there is a better overall "machine" than the RPM. It has so many features, way more than any other machine in it's price range, it's built like a damn tank, and it has the technology that makes it extremely reliable, extremely easy to work on if you ever need to replace a part, and no real weaknesses that other presses have. I'm not so naive that I don't understand where the company falls short in a lot of people's minds, but trust me, the press does not fall short in any category. I'll go ahead and say this: If our press said M&R on it, and it had the support of a great company like M&R and a guy like Rich Hoffman behind it, it would be the best selling automatic of all time and it wouldn't even be close. It would outsell the entire lineup of Anatol, Tuf, MHM, Progressive, P-tex combined. I know that's a bold statement, but I believe it with all my heart.
I want to see a sportsman exg to see if it's really like my favorite M&R press of all time, the Gauntlet II. If it is, then it is probably in the top 2 mid range autos out there. The sportsman ex is obviously a great press, enough features and then you get the real support that all of us wish we had along with a great press. I really like the MHM's, the E type is a great press, it doesn't have many weaknesses, maybe it falls short in some of the support like RPM does, maybe the flash units are a little weaker as far as flash times go than other flash units I've seen or used, but the machines themselves are pretty damn good. TAS machines will be very reliable, but I feel they have just enough features to keep someone from wanting something else, and they just look and feel boring to me, just my personal opinion. I've been really hard on Anatol the last few years after I compared a local machine that is in the same category as our press. Maybe I've been too tough, but there are just a few things about them that I don't like, and nothing is going to change that. They aren't built as heavy duty as I'd want in an auto, they do have plenty of easy to use features but it feels like they stop short of really knocking it out of the park. It's almost like I get dissapointed because they fall short of their potential in my eyes, but then again, it's subjective and there are lot's of people out there that feel they've done plenty. They have come up with some cool to some people features like the step back and the half index flash but I don't care for those because I feel that if your running an 8 or 10 color especially, you shouldn't need those features because if you are using them a lot, then you are doing a lot of things wrong prepress. I also have heard plenty of rough things about the support after the sale when it comes to them, but there are lot's of manufacturers that fall in the same category and could stand to do better, my favorite auto included.
The issue of registration systems is not really an issue any longer. Almost all of the machines built now are compatible with the triloc or newman pin, and you can also build a damn good regi system yourself and have unbelievable results like we've had. I wouldn't cross any manufacturer off my list because they didn't build a regi system. With that said, the MHM will always have faster setup times than the others, but you can really come close with a triloc (modified in my opinion) or newman pin. You can use those systems without carrier sheets and the film part will be as quickly done as on the MHM FPU. I made our regi system FPU just like the MHM and made our pallet jig to work just like the triloc, so I've got a pretty solid system that is more accurate than I thought it was going to be, it's been fantastic. Now if you are lucky enough to run a DTS/CTS along with your regi system of choice, then you've got it as good as you're going to get. The MHM's will still be slightly better because you don't have to take a pallet on and off but in our case, that really doesn't take but a few seconds either way so it's not an issue in my mind since you could easily make up those few seconds somewhere else. I am very anti carrier sheets and I won't use a system that uses them, but to each their own and I do see how they can benefit. I just want to line the film up and tape it to the screen as fast as possible and the MHM FPU is the quickest way I know of to do that.
Well, that's just my humble opinion. I know there are lot's of other factors that come in to play on the purchase of an auto, and we live in a day where we have way more great options when it comes to machines than we did 10 years ago. We are very lucky in that sense. And I completely understand why the RPM hasn't taken over the world, but trust me, it's not the machine's fault.
-
I have been impressed with the RPM from what I have seen. The MHM really puts itself over the top with its FPU reg system. I dont like the idea of carrier sheets either.
Alan, I know there has been some interesting things going on with Rick F and the RPM brand. Are they going anywhere? Or is the Horse brand gonna take over? The press looks awesome but I am concerned about the longevity.
Also one press that I dont hear alot about but looks pretty impressive is the Falcon. I dont hear anyone running them and would like to hear more. And I dont mean the history of it.
-
I use falcon is a very nice press nice features like m&r,without the price of m&r
nice technical support, rugged machine,, and built well
in fact one of the best shops in the southeast runs 3 or 4 of them
-
Falcon M 10 color @ $55K. Probably could get it cheaper. But not knowing the price of other 10 color presses I dont know where this falls in place. I know Alan has researched p-tx presses and something similar to the Falcon is in the mid to high 40s.
-
I guess what I am asking is the 40-50K range around where these presses run for a 10 color?
-
we pay around 70`s for our falcon M 1O colors brand new 3 years ago
-
Support...Not a single manufacture mentioned so far can touch M&R as far as support. Unless you want 3rd party techs jacking with your stuff. Not saying all of those guys are bad, but some of them are.
I know this much, I am confident if I picked up the phone and called M&R, I could have a tech here tomorrow.
-
Brandt brings up a very good point. I dont know about MHM, RPM, or TAS' support systems. I know M&R, Anatol, and Workhorse all have more than enough people in the states to service the equipment although M&R probably has without a doubt the best service support.
-
we only needed support from the manufacturer once
not bad for 3 years ;)
-
we only needed support from the manufacturer once
not bad for 3 years ;)
That's a great thing. If your like me though, you plan for the worst, hope for the best. Worst case, I want fast support. Best case, wont need any.
-
If any of us bought a machine and it needed a tech out the next day, there is only one company that could consistently handle that and that is M&R. I'd be willing to bet that they could get a tech to any shop within the US the next day and do it 99.9% of the time. Anatol, probably a lot less, TUF/Progressive, more than Anatol but far less than M&R, RPM probably less than those guys but better than MHM or TAS, but I"m purely guessing on that last one.
A couple months after we had our machine, we were having intermintent error messages coming from the servo. Rick was flying in the next day with some parts that would fix whatever the problem would have been but I found the culprit before he had to do so. At first I had looked at all the wires to make sure it wasn't something simple so the next step was to change out the servo amplifier and servo motor and Rick was going to make the trip and do that. I was confident that I had checked everything he told me to really well so he was going to book the trip, but I went over the press much more thoroughly and I'm glad I did. I found a cable that was wasn't plugged all the way in to the back of the main electrical component box underneath the machine and I plugged it back in all the way, ran the press for a thousand indexes and no faults so that turned out to be the problem. I was happy to know that Rick was going to be out the next day to take care of the problem. I just wonder with him being a one man show, how he would have handled that if he was at another install across the country from us. He has told me that if that were to happen, he does have more than one person that could help do any technical service and his partner was one of those guys. After running the machine and learning everything I could about it I feel confident that I could do just about anything to our machine except for a few of the most technical things. It's really about as plug-n-play as it gets as far as a machine it's size and complexity could be. It's a very simple machine. The old centurian we had was a nightmare, and crawling around it with a multi-meter in hand was necessary to troubleshoot the issues you were having. I don't miss that at all, I like being able to understand most everything about our press and how it works.
Gerry, as far as I can tell and from what I have talked to Rick about, it is business as usual with him and RPM is still doing what they do. And I feel confident that it will remain that way, it's just that he's got a little more competition now :). Which can't be too bad of a thing. Competition is good.
Machines break down, all of them, but some of them less than others, and some of them way less than others. Service after the sale is as important as most any other reason to buy. I know Rick is behind the barrel on that issue and the more presses he has in the field, the more important it will be that he sets up a network or staff to help fix those issues. He's gotten by fine so far, and I feel that if our machine went down tomorrow, he or someone he trusts would be there on Tuesday to fix the press, but I obviously can't say that for sure like I could about M&R. They are the standard for service and support after the sale, and hell, before the sale as well. If any manufacturer wants to make sure they take care of their customers as well as the competition, then they need to model themselves after M&R, at least as much as they can without financially strangling themselves.
-
As always good advice Alan. I know you made your own reg system for your press but I am not as handy as you so I would like a ready to go one. Will the Newman or Tri-Loc work with the RPM? Which one would be better? That is assuming that I would go the roller frame route. If I did not go with rollers would I just be limited to the Tri-Loc?
-
As always good advice Alan. I know you made your own reg system for your press but I am not as handy as you so I would like a ready to go one. Will the Newman or Tri-Loc work with the RPM? Which one would be better? That is assuming that I would go the roller frame route. If I did not go with rollers would I just be limited to the Tri-Loc?
Both systems will fit seamlessly onto the RPM. You will be limited to the triloc if you don't have the rollers though. I think both systems are only as good as the person putting the film on the screens. They will both work great with very little micro work needed if your guy or girl is good at what they do.
-
We haven't had any support issues with our MHM, but we know independents who know their stuff inside out. Not to mention that we've almost never needed any. As for the FPU, I've built many over the years, and liked the look of the tri-loc and Newman pinlock, but when I saw the MHM at the shop we where we were checking the press out, it was so blatantly obvious that there was no need for improvement on it. It's simply as easy as placing the film on the screen and taping it in place, then putting it into the vacuum frame. Voila! (not wala, sorry, I had to spell it correctly). In a busy shop, that can buy and hour or two per week I would guess.
Steve
-
Spider Machines! :o just kidding...
-
LOL Shawn you might joke, but the guy does know his stuff and would do whatever it is to get a press up and going. I just read a few post and everytime this topic comes up it turns to M&R service yes M&R has people all over the world seems like and Rich is a very good guy. Answer this question whats a great press without the service coming with it...I would love to never see a service guy in my shop, but that is crazy thinking, everything needs service if its mechanical. I think a press that needs almost no service tech at your door is a good press to have, since I,ve had my Anatol I've had no service tech come by, but have had service on the phone to fix minor things, and I sure theres many other presses companies the same way.
Darryl
-
How much more is the MHM compared to a RPM or M&R? I know Anatol can beat everybody in price but what are we talking for MHM 20K more? 30K more?
-
How much more is the MHM compared to a RPM or M&R? I know Anatol can beat everybody in price but what are we talking for MHM 20K more? 30K more?
I dunno what it is today, but when I priced them a few years back (tire kicking). MHM was a good 20k more.
-
Brandt brings up a very good point. I dont know about MHM, RPM, or TAS' support systems. I know M&R, Anatol, and Workhorse all have more than enough people in the states to service the equipment although M&R probably has without a doubt the best service support.
Here's what I know about support in regards to MHM.
Hirsch, to get phone tech support you have to call in and leave your name in their queque. Someone calls back normally within an hour. Or I can call the lead machine tech directly. Most of the time he'll answer but if he does not he calls back normally within a hour or so. In the summer they are more busy and it can take longer to hear back. I've never had a situation come up that caused me to lose time in production because no one got back to me, each and every time I've needed help, I got it. I don't spend a lot of time with techs on the phone either, it's very infrequent and I think MHM should be credited for that. Now that may not be what some here say or think, but that is honestly how it's gone down for us over the last 6 years.
Could I have a tech here tomorrow if needed? Well I don't know, I have never asked. In the 10 yrs I ran Javelins I never needed a tech to get here tomorrow. I guess I'm not fearful of that because almost all problems can be easily fixed with a little phone support. Now if I were fearful of turning a wrench or picking up a machine schematic, then it might be different.
In regards to a press jig, here's my thought on time; one color job let's say since someone else brought it up previously. On the MHM, you load the screen and you're ready to print. If you have a pallet jig, you first remove a pallet, get the jig and fasten it, then move it to the head, table up, lock the screen. Then you have to take off the jig and put the pallet back on. Then you are ready to print. What happens when a you have a bad screen? MHM--take it out put another in place, print. With a jig, in addition to the screen change, you take a pallet off again, put the jig on, move jig to head, table up, lock, remove jig, replace pallet. In my mind the jig process takes at least a minute or 2, not merely seconds every time you use it. Multipy that times thousands of changeovers in the lifespan of a machine, then you're talking real time.
-
can you use rollers on mhm? all the vids I've seen are static. . .I agree about the pallet jig style reg system. pita but better than nothing. That's why I couldn't justify 2500.00 for triloc, awesome product, but still time consuming and the hell with carrier sheets.
-
can you use rollers on mhm? all the vids I've seen are static. . .I agree about the pallet jig style reg system. pita but better than nothing. That's why I couldn't justify 2500.00 for triloc, awesome product, but still time consuming and the hell with carrier sheets.
Newman makes pin locks for the MHM. Not sure the price but normal Newman pin locks are $12/pair
http://www.stretchdevices.com/pinlock-registration-system-textile-press (http://www.stretchdevices.com/pinlock-registration-system-textile-press)
(bottom of page)
-
Here's a vid with newmans
MHM E 型 圆盘印花机 MHM CAROUSEL E TYPE - 视频 - 优酷视频 - 在线观看 (http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTQ1ODc5ODQw)
-
For what it's worth, pin lock has swing away arms that tuck under the platen. You could run the reg platen in production if you wanted. We don't for fear of damaging it, but it's possible.
-
MHMs and Newmans were made for eachother.
-
How much more is the MHM compared to a RPM or M&R? I know Anatol can beat everybody in price but what are we talking for MHM 20K more? 30K more?
I dunno what it is today, but when I priced them a few years back (tire kicking). MHM was a good 20k more.
Ok I have to jump in here. A loaded Sportsman was about $1500 less than a MHM e type. Even if the cost is double for the MHM you make up the difference with time saved in set ups and pre press in about a year or so. Cost of ownership and potential profit with more goods produced the MHM is unparalleled.
-
Did you mean 15K less or $1500? If an MHM is only $1500 more than M&R then M&R has some problems. Or I should say M&R needs to step up their game.
-
How much more is the MHM compared to a RPM or M&R? I know Anatol can beat everybody in price but what are we talking for MHM 20K more? 30K more?
I dunno what it is today, but when I priced them a few years back (tire kicking). MHM was a good 20k more.
Ok I have to jump in here. A loaded Sportsman was about $1500 less than a MHM e type. Even if the cost is double for the MHM you make up the difference with time saved in set ups and pre press in about a year or so. Cost of ownership and potential profit with more goods produced the MHM is unparalleled.
Sonny, we've had this argument before and it's always the same. Your scenario has and never will ever happen in any shop. Hypothetical numbers are great selling points but being able to double your production with the right press and processes in place only matters if you could actually double your sales. Doubling your production is easy on paper, but remember, you have to double your sales first.
On the issue of using a pallet jig or the entire regi system for a one color job, I hope nobody goes through that little bit of trouble of changing out the pallets when you could just put the table up and you have a center line on a pallet and it takes less than 4 seconds to register a one color job. It's faster with the MHM setup, but only seconds on a one color job if you do it the easiest way on the non MHM press.
I do agree the MHM is very efficient and it's the best at registering multi colored jobs, no question.
-
Brandt brings up a very good point. I dont know about MHM, RPM, or TAS' support systems. I know M&R, Anatol, and Workhorse all have more than enough people in the states to service the equipment although M&R probably has without a doubt the best service support.
Here's what I know about support in regards to MHM.
Hirsch, to get phone tech support you have to call in and leave your name in their queque. Someone calls back normally within an hour. Or I can call the lead machine tech directly. Most of the time he'll answer but if he does not he calls back normally within a hour or so. In the summer they are more busy and it can take longer to hear back. I've never had a situation come up that caused me to lose time in production because no one got back to me, each and every time I've needed help, I got it. I don't spend a lot of time with techs on the phone either, it's very infrequent and I think MHM should be credited for that. Now that may not be what some here say or think, but that is honestly how it's gone down for us over the last 6 years.
Could I have a tech here tomorrow if needed? Well I don't know, I have never asked. In the 10 yrs I ran Javelins I never needed a tech to get here tomorrow. I guess I'm not fearful of that because almost all problems can be easily fixed with a little phone support. Now if I were fearful of turning a wrench or picking up a machine schematic, then it might be different.
In regards to a press jig, here's my thought on time; one color job let's say since someone else brought it up previously. On the MHM, you load the screen and you're ready to print. If you have a pallet jig, you first remove a pallet, get the jig and fasten it, then move it to the head, table up, lock the screen. Then you have to take off the jig and put the pallet back on. Then you are ready to print. What happens when a you have a bad screen? MHM--take it out put another in place, print. With a jig, in addition to the screen change, you take a pallet off again, put the jig on, move jig to head, table up, lock, remove jig, replace pallet. In my mind the jig process takes at least a minute or 2, not merely seconds every time you use it. Multipy that times thousands of changeovers in the lifespan of a machine, then you're talking real time.
My experience is the same as Squeegees. I have called maybe 3 or 4 times and I have not waited more than a half hour for a tech to call me back. The main tech guy is really good. The tech that I work with knows this press really well. He helped me over the phone in 10 mins and got me back up and running when the main computer would not come on. (another issue the previous owner messes up not MHMs fault.) I was back up and running and fixed the part in less than an hour.
I was told from a MHM tech that almost all the repairs and fixes on my MHM e-type I can do myself with a tech on the phone. I can also have parts over nighted from New York (I believe that’s right) Here is another reason to buy a bigger press than you need. If you have to you can Cannibalize your unused heads for parts or just have that head down until you can get the parts in at a slower less costly pace than over night. So it is not important to have a tech here tomorrow. I wouldn’t want to bring a tech in to fix my press unless I have too. Time is money but at some point the money spent is not worth the time. I would rather be down another day or even two then have a $2000 to $3000 Bill to over night parts and a tech to fix my press. I know for some big production shops that would make sense but for me I can just work the weekend to catch up.
-
How much more is the MHM compared to a RPM or M&R? I know Anatol can beat everybody in price but what are we talking for MHM 20K more? 30K more?
I dunno what it is today, but when I priced them a few years back (tire kicking). MHM was a good 20k more.
Ok I have to jump in here. A loaded Sportsman was about $1500 less than a MHM e type. Even if the cost is double for the MHM you make up the difference with time saved in set ups and pre press in about a year or so. Cost of ownership and potential profit with more goods produced the MHM is unparalleled.
Sonny, we've had this argument before and it's always the same. Your scenario has and never will ever happen in any shop. Hypothetical numbers are great selling points but being able to double your production with the right press and processes in place only matters if you could actually double your sales. Doubling your production is easy on paper, but remember, you have to double your sales first.
On the issue of using a pallet jig or the entire regi system for a one color job, I hope nobody goes through that little bit of trouble of changing out the pallets when you could just put the table up and you have a center line on a pallet and it takes less than 4 seconds to register a one color job. It's faster with the MHM setup, but only seconds on a one color job if you do it the easiest way on the non MHM press.
I do agree the MHM is very efficient and it's the best at registering multi colored jobs, no question.
Why are you even talking about how long it takes to register a one color job on a auto? One color jobs are not registered.
-
Alan, not to get in a big thing about whats going on with RPM and Mustang but do you know the differences between the 2 presses? I know they are manufactured by the same company.
-
How much more is the MHM compared to a RPM or M&R? I know Anatol can beat everybody in price but what are we talking for MHM 20K more? 30K more?
I dunno what it is today, but when I priced them a few years back (tire kicking). MHM was a good 20k more.
Ok I have to jump in here. A loaded Sportsman was about $1500 less than a MHM e type. Even if the cost is double for the MHM you make up the difference with time saved in set ups and pre press in about a year or so. Cost of ownership and potential profit with more goods produced the MHM is unparalleled.
Like I said (maybe you over looked what I said or how I said it). But When I quoted it, it was a good 20k more. This was back in 2008/09. Maybe things are different now. Also food for thought and ive seen a lot of this. People comparing a price from one company to another company and having never contacted them just going by "what so and so said". I had quotes in my hands from both at the time. Today I have no idea what it is. Which is why I clearly said "a few years back".
I would say that MHM has the fastest set up sure. But its not night and day like you make it. I have set up 6 color jobs in as fast as I could move the table around the press. Which is about as fast as I felt like walking. Not sure it needs to be any faster than that.
-
Alan, not to get in a big thing about whats going on with RPM and horse but do you know the differences between the 2 presses? I know they are manufactured by the same company.
Bigger question should be which one will be left standing or will both. Or can the company keep making it two different ways. Or even more importantly, what if the company allowed the new label in as a last ditched effort to stay in business. Important questions IMO.
-
Did you mean 15K less or $1500? If an MHM is only $1500 more than M&R then M&R has some problems. Or I should say M&R needs to step up their game.
It was about $1500 plus or minus. This was apples to apples. M&R Retail pricing.
-
Brandt,concerning the tri-loc are the costs of the carrier sheets a moot point. Are they 1 time use only or are they reusable a few times. Do they have partial and full sized sheets?
-
Did you mean 15K less or $1500? If an MHM is only $1500 more than M&R then M&R has some problems. Or I should say M&R needs to step up their game.
It was about $1500 plus or minus. This was apples to apples. M&R Retail pricing.
Have you compared any actual quotes from each? Recently?
-
Brandt,concerning the tri-loc are the costs of the carrier sheets a moot point. Are they 1 time use only or are they reusable a few times. Do they have partial and full sized sheets?
We got a ton of them when we bought ours, haven't bought any new ones, reuse them all the time. Had our press 10 months now.
-
We got a ton of them when we bought ours, haven't bought any new ones, reuse them all the time. Had our press 10 months now.
Have to say, one should be verrrry careful re-using the sheets. It's no problem if you take care when removing the sheet from the pin bars over and over. If you rush, you can tweak out the punched holes - sometimes in a way that is not immediately noticeable until you go to press. (in which case the whole point of the system is defeated....)
I've roached many sheets by yanking a freshly exposed screen out of the master frame and not realizing the film was stuck to the stencil. Twisted the carrier sheet into a warped mess.
-
We got a ton of them when we bought ours, haven't bought any new ones, reuse them all the time. Had our press 10 months now.
Have to say, one should be verrrry careful re-using the sheets. It's no problem if you take care when removing the sheet from the pin bars over and over. If you rush, you can tweak out the punched holes - sometimes in a way that is not immediately noticeable until you go to press. (in which case the whole point of the system is defeated....)
I've roached many sheets by yanking a freshly exposed screen out of the master frame and not realizing the film was stuck to the stencil. Twisted the carrier sheet into a warped mess.
No doubt about it, we have done the same for ones we jacked up. You can avoid it most often though.
-
Why are you even talking about how long it takes to register a one color job on a auto? One color jobs are not registered.
I replied to squeegee's comment about "setting up" a one color, not really registering.
In regards to a press jig, here's my thought on time; one color job let's say since someone else brought it up previously. On the MHM, you load the screen and you're ready to print. If you have a pallet jig, you first remove a pallet, get the jig and fasten it, then move it to the head, table up, lock the screen. Then you have to take off the jig and put the pallet back on. Then you are ready to print. What happens when a you have a bad screen? MHM--take it out put another in place, print. With a jig, in addition to the screen change, you take a pallet off again, put the jig on, move jig to head, table up, lock, remove jig, replace pallet. In my mind the jig process takes at least a minute or 2, not merely seconds every time you use it. Multipy that times thousands of changeovers in the lifespan of a machine, then you're talking real time.
-
Press choice is very personal. It also has a lot to do with the business it is going into. I am pretty certain that no matter which press you get you will be really happy with it and you will also find some minor faults.
One of the things that makes MHM different is that they really are designing for the larger more business savvy shops. Big thing about their presses is that they are very simple to set up and operate. The goals is to have a press operator (unskilled labor) and have them run the press. I guess the best explanation would be like the Mac and Windows. It is just more intuitive and easier to train somebody to run it.
The support is fine. It does not come even close to M&R (the only other company I had to call for help), but it does work fine. There are several techs and if you were really down, I am sure they would get one out on site rather quickly. Just like most other MHM users, I can't say I've had many problems that were not caused by us or that could not be fixed by rebooting. Actually I had only one (in 2.5 years), a sensor failed and the replacement was in the next morning. If we were not skilled enough to replace it, any local electrician could have done it without effecting any calibration.
As Tony keeps repeating, all the presses will make you similar amounts of money if they are operated properly. Some will do a little better and they do tend to cost a little more upfront.
pierre
-
Alan, not to get in a big thing about whats going on with RPM and horse but do you know the differences between the 2 presses? I know they are manufactured by the same company.
One is blue and the other is tan. Just kidding, the only real difference IN THE MACHINE is in how the print stroke is adjusted. One is done digitally using an encoder inside the AC motor and the other uses proxy sensors and a flag to adjust stroke. There are things in the works that could mean more changes between the two but that's all in the future and who know how all that will pan out.
We all know the other difference is in who you technically buy it from, Rick or Robby.
-
I dont know for sure but the digital one seems like it would be easier to use. Do you know if the prices are pretty much the same?
-
Alan, not to get in a big thing about whats going on with RPM and horse but do you know the differences between the 2 presses? I know they are manufactured by the same company.
One is blue and the other is tan. Just kidding, the only real difference IN THE MACHINE is in how the print stroke is adjusted. One is done digitally using an encoder inside the AC motor and the other uses proxy sensors and a flag to adjust stroke. There are things in the works that could mean more changes between the two but that's all in the future and who know how all that will pan out.
We all know the other difference is in who you technically buy it from, Rick or Robby.
I would love to see another person similar to Alan get an RPM so we can get more info! I think it would be a smart move for Rick to discount one heavily (to the right person) and get the ppl talking about it more.
pierre
-
Yes that could be great for Rick because from what I see it could be the best mid range press out there and for 50Kish for an 8 color may be a bargain for all the digital controls making it easier to adjust is awesome. Now if it had individual head off contact. What press sports that if any?
-
I think the sensor/flag would actually be easier to use. You can visually see what you're doing.
Digital would win on longevity though, prox. sensors are a wear part. And some of them ain't cheap.
-
Alan, not to get in a big thing about whats going on with RPM and horse but do you know the differences between the 2 presses? I know they are manufactured by the same company.
We all know the other difference is in who you technically buy it from, Rick or Robby.
How about Ricky Bobby?
-
Yes that could be great for Rick because from what I see it could be the best mid range press out there and for 50Kish for an 8 color may be a bargain for all the digital controls making it easier to adjust is awesome. Now if it had individual head off contact. What press sports that if any?
An E Type 8 color is in this price range.
-
Alan, not to get in a big thing about whats going on with RPM and horse but do you know the differences between the 2 presses? I know they are manufactured by the same company.
One is blue and the other is tan. Just kidding, the only real difference IN THE MACHINE is in how the print stroke is adjusted. One is done digitally using an encoder inside the AC motor and the other uses proxy sensors and a flag to adjust stroke. There are things in the works that could mean more changes between the two but that's all in the future and who know how all that will pan out.
We all know the other difference is in who you technically buy it from, Rick or Robby.
I would love to see another person similar to Alan get an RPM so we can get more info! I think it would be a smart move for Rick to discount one heavily (to the right person) and get the ppl talking about it more.
pierre
I think Ricky or Robby should put some heavy discounts out there to get people buzzing about these presses. I would take one if I was in the position to.
-
I would love to see another person similar to Alan get an RPM so we can get more info! I think it would be a smart move for Rick to discount one heavily (to the right person) and get the ppl talking about it more.
pierre
There are only a few guys out there who are on the boards who have them, but the guys I know are not active, they mostly lurk. I talk regularly with a couple other shops who run them and they all love them, but they don't share the same passion that I have for this business or especially the machines. I could talk autos all damn day and I could go into shops and watch how other people operate them every day of the week if I could. My favorite thing to do right now is go visit other shops and watch them work. You'd be surprised at how many of the mid sized and larger shops don't really know what the hell they are doing. It's very satisfying to know how much more efficient shops like ours and other members here on this board are compared to those shops who don't take advantage of the discussion forums.
It would be nice to get more people than just me talking about them. Not meaning to brag but I don't think anybody who runs or owns an RPM knows more about it than I do, but having more people discussing them besides me would be great for the press. I can tell you guys how reliable our press is and has been till I'm blue in the face, but after all, it's only one sample so I could just be very lucky to not have had any problems with our press in 2.5 years and 500K impressions. I know I rave about it so much and people probably get tired of hearing it from just one person, but I promise you guys that I know what I'm talking about when it comes to autos, more than from just a printer's viewpoint. I'm still researching them to this day so when the time comes for number 2, I'll be ready to make the best decision.
When the time comes, hopefully we'll be financially in a position where a challenger III or mhm S type will be doable, but it's going to be hard to find something better than the press we currently run when price is a factor. I think if price weren't an issue, and we were doing $1,000,000 a year with one auto, then a challenger III will be my choice. I don't think I'd spend all the extra money for a 14 or more color machine when we'd rarely need anything of that size or flash capacity and stick with a 12 color.
-
Hey Brandt, what manufacturers did you entertain before settling in on M&R?
Pierre, same question just replace with MHM?
Alan, same question just replace with RPM?
lol ;D
-
Yes that could be great for Rick because from what I see it could be the best mid range press out there and for 50Kish for an 8 color may be a bargain for all the digital controls making it easier to adjust is awesome. Now if it had individual head off contact. What press sports that if any?
The MHM's have individual OC on the printheads as an option, as do the Anatol's. The challenger III also has them. I've been thinking of trying to fabricate something that would fit on our press. It's something that would be easy to do on our RPM because of the way it's designed, a simple plug in part.
-
Hey Brandt, what manufacturers did you entertain before settling in on M&R?
Pierre, same question just replace with MHM?
Alan, same question just replace with RPM?
lol ;D
I looked heavily at the sportsman e, gauntlet II, and the anatol stratus II. Those two along with the RPM made my final 3 with the MHM just squeezed out due to some personal issues I had with the company selling them, not because of the auto so much as the one's who would be setting it up and servicing it.
I looked at every mid level option out there at the time, including the progressive falcon, awt's print-tex II, american m&m's X-Press, I think the TUF Olympian was still being made, and I looked briefly at the TAS Hawk or was it something else...I can't remember.
-
Hey Brandt, what manufacturers did you entertain before settling in on M&R?
Pierre, same question just replace with MHM?
Alan, same question just replace with RPM?
lol ;D
Seen M&R, Anatol, Workhorse, and a MHM. Also spoke with also RPM and Printex.
-
What put M&R over the top for you? Do you think you would be in the same position today with the screen printing side of your business if you went with any other press?
How about you Alan?
-
What put M&R over the top for you? Do you think you would be in the same position today with the screen printing side of your business if you went with any other press?
How about you Alan?
The tour of M&R, something like 500k sqft of manufacturing on US Soil was awesome. I got to see the care in each area from the base to heads, to wiring, and to support. The support staff is larger than some press manufactures. The amount of presses they were making/shipping was staggering.
Would I be in a similar place with another press? Hard to say that, I am a small timer, I am in no way working this Sportsman like it could be. I could probably be printing on a Brown and get buy, but I wouldn't want to. Let me answer it another way though. I would make the same choice again. I am VERY happy with my equipment. M&R gave me something I needed. Piece of mind to know that they are there if I need them and they built me something that makes me think I wont need them. Perfect score sir.
-
The MHM's have individual OC on the printheads as an option, as do the Anatol's. The challenger III also has them. I've been thinking of trying to fabricate something that would fit on our press. It's something that would be easy to do on our RPM because of the way it's designed, a simple plug in part.
Just an FYI, the individual OC is not an option on E or S, it's only optional on the 4000. The only option on the E is the FPU, which for a first time MHM buyer is critical.
No press that I know of in the price range of the E has individual OC on each head, which is a feature I'd rather never be without again.
-
The MHM's have individual OC on the printheads as an option, as do the Anatol's. The challenger III also has them. I've been thinking of trying to fabricate something that would fit on our press. It's something that would be easy to do on our RPM because of the way it's designed, a simple plug in part.
Just an FYI, the individual OC is not an option on E or S, it's only optional on the 4000. The only option on the E is the FPU, which for a first time MHM buyer is critical.
No press that I know of in the price range of the E has individual OC on each head, which is a feature I'd rather never be without again.
To clarify your post, it's not optional because it's already on the E and S as standard right?
And to clarify the feature of individual printhead OC, our press has it, as do most autos that I'm aware of, I meant as a completely tool-less option. My bad, I didn't make that very clear in my post. Even our 89 Centurian had individual OC but it was a bitch to change. The RPM is very easy to change but it's obviously not as easy as a tool-less click type adjuster like you have on the chopper cylinder adjustments.
-
What put M&R over the top for you? Do you think you would be in the same position today with the screen printing side of your business if you went with any other press?
How about you Alan?
That would be hard to say if we would have enjoyed the same success as we are now. I'm am fairly certain that I can set up a job faster on our current press with it's feature set faster than if we would have had another similarly priced press in here. It also will print at a rate that some mid level autos cannot, so that helps up do more. We are a shop that actually uses all the features on the press, because they make our jobs easier and faster. This press in the hands of an operator who doesn't use the features or doesn't care to take advantage of the things that this press can do won't matter over the brown electraprint. I really think having everything available at your printhead makes a big difference in setup times, the control you have over flash parameters and other settings makes a big difference in repeat jobs as well as production run times. It all adds up in my mind and I like to take advantage of all the things that a very smart person has put into the press to help the printer do more, faster. The real savvy printer can work around his press's shortcomings though, but luckily we don't have to.
I have seen a few presses that we could have bought, up close and personal, since buying our RPM, and I've left those shops or shows with a smile on my face knowing I made the right choice in our automatic.
-
Yes that could be great for Rick because from what I see it could be the best mid range press out there and for 50Kish for an 8 color may be a bargain for all the digital controls making it easier to adjust is awesome. Now if it had individual head off contact. What press sports that if any?
The MHM's have individual OC on the printheads as an option, as do the Anatol's. The challenger III also has them. I've been thinking of trying to fabricate something that would fit on our press. It's something that would be easy to do on our RPM because of the way it's designed, a simple plug in part.
individual OC is standard on the E type The S Type but is an option on the 4000
-
Yes individual as standard and tool-less and continuously adjustable yes.
I don't think setting the OC with the screen hangers really qualifies as a feature though...all the screen hangers I've seen are adjusted when leveling or might be adjusted for a large job with a special need, but are not intended for daily use.
An important difference between IOC vs. Central is the ability to quickly change multiple OC settings within one multicolor job.
-
Yes individual as standard and tool-less and continuously adjustable yes.
I don't think setting the OC with the screen hangers really qualifies as a feature though...all the screen hangers I've seen are adjusted when leveling or might be adjusted for a large job with a special need, but are not intended for daily use.
An important difference between IOC vs. Central is the ability to quickly change multiple OC settings within one multicolor job.
Most printhead OC's are not easily changed like you can with the tool-less designs and like you say, not really a feature per say. I use ours like you guys probably do since ours is easily changed by turning a bolt that is threaded into the screen hanger assembly. Ours does have 2 nuts that act like the locking micro knobs do on most presses, but I keep those loose on our press so I can easily change the printhead OC as if it were tool-less. I haven't seen any evidence to keep those nuts locked down, but maybe if I were printing with lot's of pressure then maybe I'd need to lock the hangers in place so they couldn't move up or down. The bolt that moves it up and down is threaded into the assembly so excessive vibration could move the IOC I guess, but I've kept my eye on the thing and nothing bad has happened like misregistration.
-
Alan I was checking out one of your videos and noticed the chopper was lifting or was it lowering unevenly. What is the cause of it? Did not look to effect printing at all just curious.
-
Alan I was checking out one of your videos and noticed the chopper was lifting or was it lowering unevenly. What is the cause of it? Did not look to effect printing at all just curious.
It lifts and lowers sort of off kilter a bit and it get's worse with the lower amount of air pressure inside the chopper cylinder. It doesn't do it hardly at all when printing with higher pressures, like 50 and up. It doesn't affect anything as far as the print goes, but I have wondered what others would think when they saw it on the video. Not all presses do that, it's sort of our fingerprint on ours I guess. I've tried to get other presses to duplicate that but I can't. It mainly means that one side is probably lubricated better or worse than the other or one get's the air from the main supply faster than the other cylinder I guess, probably several factors that go into why it does that.
-
Check for crimps/leaks/clogs in tubing as well. I've had that happen on a crimped tube before.
-
Check for crimps/leaks/clogs in tubing as well. I've had that happen on a crimped tube before.
It doesn't do it on every printhead, it's the worst on #10 if I remember correctly. I've never really tried to look for the reason it does that since it is purely cosmetic but now I am interested to know exactly why it's happening so I will take your advice and do it tomorrow between jobs.
-
Just got a new sportsman ex 10 color, I found a new love!!!
---
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=26.189640,-80.278540
-
Just got a new sportsman ex 10 color, I found a new love!!!
---
I am here: [url]http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=26.189640,-80.278540[/url] ([url]http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=26.189640,-80.278540[/url])
Hey I see you lol.
-
all that being said, all great points. who else offers a revolver program other than M/R? I miss having a auto with that program.That to me is a super big selling point. It really helps with the multiple round jobs some of us get because of limited budgets and available print heads.. .
-
MHM has an optional twister program, which I believe is the same thing as the revolver program. Not sure how they got around that patent. I guess since they are an overseas company?
-
who else offers a revolver program other than M/R?
I could tell you but I would probably get sued or something ;)
-
LOL thats a good one. Isn't the revolver program just a fix for poor pre press planning or am I missing something. It seems the need to have a program like that would basically cut production in half where in that time you could fix the problem with needing the revolver program in the first place.
-
I think the whole idea of the program was to help multicolor jobs on a small auto. So instead of having 2 white screens you can p/f/p/f the under base. Definitely would slow production down, but still faster then manual printing.
-
LOL thats a good one. Isn't the revolver program just a fix for poor pre press planning or am I missing something. It seems the need to have a program like that would basically cut production in half where in that time you could fix the problem with needing the revolver program in the first place.
No it has nothing to do with poor press planning, as already mentioned for us with smaller number print head presses the revolver system is a great program.
I ran a javelin with a flash back for many years and I can tell you the same job on the jav versus on a press with a static flash and revolver program the revolver is still almost twice as fast as the shuttle flash.
-
LOL thats a good one. Isn't the revolver program just a fix for poor pre press planning or am I missing something. It seems the need to have a program like that would basically cut production in half where in that time you could fix the problem with needing the revolver program in the first place.
If you dont have enough print heads, it can be a savior. Nobody wants to or plans to run in revolver I don't think. But let me put it in context you can understand.
Even if you have to use revolver. A single operator on a auto can run faster than 2 people on a manual can, at least that's how its been for us. Shelly can be out there running a revolver job and I will come in and do some design work or run the embroidery machines, we will be out putting more than we used to together on a manual and still getting extra work done.
Revolver is a tool, not the rule.
-
Maybe I need to see it in action cause I dont get it. This is what I picture. Am I like way off?
Print 1st color - head 1
Flash- head 2
cool down head3
print 2nd color head 4
Print 3rd color head 5
Print 4th color head 6
Flash- head 2
Print 5th color head 3
-
I guess you could set it up like that, but you still probably wouldn't want to print right after the second flash unless your dwell time is really slow. I think the sequence of the program will depend heavily on the type of artwork.
-
The revolver or MHM's multi print is used many ways. It gives you more control and options on how to use your press. Its not about speed. It can save you if things start going wrong on a print run and you need to break up wow prints with a flash.
Examples:
Printing a small run 2 color job.
Print the white flash print the white on the second with a top red.
large multi color jobs with one flash
Sometimes you don’t want to print more than a few colors wet on wet. 6 color job print underbase flash 2 color wet on wet then flash and then run them back around to print the final 3 colors.
-
The revolver or MHM's multi print is used many ways. It gives you more control and options on how to use your press. Its not about speed. It can save you if things start going wrong on a print run and you need to break up wow prints with a flash.
Examples:
Printing a small run 2 color job.
Print the white flash print the white on the second with a top red.
large multi color jobs with one flash
Sometimes you don’t want to print more than a few colors wet on wet. 6 color job print underbase flash 2 color wet on wet then flash and then run them back around to print the final 3 colors.
while we do not have the multiprint option, I see it useful on very small orders needing the P/F/P. So, under 36 pieces it is faster to spin it around twice than it is to burn two screens. At some point in time when the press time becomes much more valuable and the time needed to prep and reclaim screens gets shorter, we might burn two screens for those orders, but it does not sound like it will be any time soon . . .
pierre
-
I would even manually print between cycles..it will beep 4 indexes befor it needs to be loaded and unloaded giving time to run over and load /unload it.The program takes out the need to turn heads on and off as explained.so much less stress. It also will allow you to run a cool down round if there is no coold down after the flash. excellent program.
-
LOL thats a good one. Isn't the revolver program just a fix for poor pre press planning or am I missing something. It seems the need to have a program like that would basically cut production in half where in that time you could fix the problem with needing the revolver program in the first place.
Having read the answers about the revolver program and agreeing with them, I can say that it is often used as a fix for many different things that could have been done differently/better in pre-press to avoid using the program. Now before some of you come after me, hear me out. It is a great benefit for those 6 and 8 color autos and those of you who are using it on a 6 color quite often are probably doing things correctly and you simply have to run the press around more than one revo. Also those 8 color autos will need to use it often on those 5 and 6 spot color jobs. If you are using the revolver program on a 10 color machine for 5 and 6 spot color jobs then yes, you are doing things poorly somewhere along the line.
I try everything in my power to not use it on our machine, but inevitably we do have to a handful of times a year. It's not a feature that I care whether or not it's on a machine that I buy. During the first few years that I printed, due to poor technique and knowledge of screen printing, I had to run 4+ color jobs around more than one revolution on our 8/12 color auto all the damn time. I got quite good at doing the revolver manually and if we have to do it now on a job, it's very easy for me to accomplish with our press. Sure, it would be easier to set it and forget it with a program within the press, but I can say that I've not misprinted a shirt in many years doing the manual revolver. And the time I saw the revolver being used in person, I saw that my manual way of doing it was faster than the programmed version but I don't know if the person had the program set up correctly. The way the guy was doing it was he was completely removing all the shirts on the press before starting a new cycle. I would think that if you do it correctly, you could just load a shirt on the empty pallet and the revolver starts all over without any interruption.
-
Yeah, that doesn't seem right that he was unloading everything. I've seen a few videos of the revolver, and the person would remove the finished garment, and then load a blank one right after.
-
Yeah, that doesn't seem right that he was unloading everything. I've seen a few videos of the revolver, and the person would remove the finished garment, and then load a blank one right after.
But it wont print, at least it doesnt on ours. It has to finish the cycle. Not a huge fan of that, but we don't use it that often either so its not a huge deal.
-
The MHM program prints when you load and unload it just stops when finished. Then when you say another group it will start printing on round one when you are unloading finished shirts and loading blank shirts. I wouldn't use it if it just waited. That can't be right about the M&R program, what a waist.
As far as speed the time is not cut in half. The second round prints really fast. You are not loading and unloading shirts on the second round so it just prints at full speed with no delays.
-
Isn't this type of discussion fun? I could literally talk autos all day long. I sometimes feel that I should get into the machinery side of the business. I'm not a sales person though, and I don't have an engineering degree so that doesn't leave much for me to really contribute. I like the idea of maybe getting into doing setups, or working on them in some capacity but I wouldn't be able to travel until the little guy gets a bit older. He's simply too much to handle with just one parent for more than a day or two.
-
I don't even have an auto and I can talk about them all day. I'm like a kid in a toy store with threads like these.
-
Love threads like these too. I really love our press and all autos, even the shitty ones. LOL
-
How about Anatol? Being almost the cheapest of the bunch. I really like the way they are progressing but I keep hearing that they are not built as heavy as others.
-
Man ,had my auto installed on Tuesday last week and I couldn't happier paying that finance payment. Had older presses but touches this thing. M&r 10/12 sportsman ex. Setups a breeze - coming from an 1988 gauntlet 6 color - heaven
-
Lets see some pics dave!
-
I missed something. who was unloading everything in revolver mode? once you hit the switch you unload then load immediatly..it never misses a beat. alan, i am forced to do the manual revolver thing now but come on, its so much easier to program it in a minute or two and let it roll if you have it available.
-
Man ,had my auto installed on Tuesday last week and I couldn't happier paying that finance payment. Had older presses but touches this thing. M&r 10/12 sportsman ex. Setups a breeze - coming from an 1988 gauntlet 6 color - heaven
I'll be joining you, I have a '94 6/8. going to a 10/12. I can not wait.
-
I missed something. who was unloading everything in revolver mode? once you hit the switch you unload then load immediatly..it never misses a beat. alan, i am forced to do the manual revolver thing now but come on, its so much easier to program it in a minute or two and let it roll if you have it available.
I totally agree with you that I'd run the program over manually doing it. I just said that I wouldn't look for that feature in a press that I was buying because I am so experienced in running it manually.
And on your first question, I was at a local shop visiting and saw their press op unloading all the shirts after the 3rd (yes, that's right, 3rd revolution on a 6 color job, 8 color press) revolution and completely emptying the pallets before he began loading the next round. He had a stack of about 300 shirts and I was thinking to myself, it's going to take him 4 hours to do that stack of shirts. I kept my mouth shut because they are the competition after all, and if it takes our competition 4 hours to do 300 shirts, that's good for us.
-
How about Anatol? Being almost the cheapest of the bunch. I really like the way they are progressing but I keep hearing that they are not built as heavy as others.
Are you trying to get me wound up and on the anatol owner's bad side? I'm kidding, they are a fine machine, they just fell out of favor with me as a company more so than the machine. As far as it being not as heavily built as others, I can for sure say the stratus is not as robust as our machine and significantly lighter overall weight but when it comes down to it, does a heavy press mean it's a good press? Yes and no in my opinion. I expect my press to be engineered for heavy workloads in the areas that are under the most stress. When I look at some of the anatols, I see areas where I'd like to see more to it, but let's face it, I'm not a mechanical engineer and I don't know if the machine is barely going to pass a load or stress test or if it's going to pass with plenty to spare. There are definately areas where I'd expect my auto to be built stout and other areas where I can see brut strength really wouldn't matter. It's kind of like using a sledge hammer to put in a finishing nail, sometimes a 10 oz hammer is plenty enough to do the job. These guys designing these things could build them to withstand a fall from a 10 story building if they wanted to, or use chopper cylinders that are 100 times stronger than the ones we use now, but somewhere you have to draw the line and find a balance that will make the press perform for what it is that we do. Which is slapping ink on dumbass tshirts.
-
I'm guessing Anatol would have the best bang for buck press in today's market. P-tex might be a contender, though I've never priced one out fully installed like I have from Anatol. I'd say the weakest points on most of the presses made today is anything made from plastic on them lol. Squeegee/Flood speed knobs, clamps etc. As far as build quality goes, I don't think Alan is discrediting them for possibly not having the thickness of steel that the RPM has, mainly because he follows that with stating that he doesn't know if it has any adverse effects in printing on the machines or longevity.
I think it's safe to assume, given the polled answers, that if Anatol had a problem holding registration or being able to print day-in day-out, there'd be a lot more people posting in a fit of rage about their presses not working. In my experience with my machine, it is more than robust enough to keep on truckin' every day. Now, I will say that it did have worn out choppers when I got it, but there was also no known history of the machine and how many impressions they had seen, and the oiler was empty. The barbs/air line fittings on the screen locks leave a little to be desired as they do leave after the tubing on them gets old, but you just snip a 1/4" off and push them back on and they good to go again.
-
If I can just put things in perspective here quickly. It is my opinion and probably Alan's and almost every body else's here, that all of those manufacturers make a pretty decent product. They all hold registration and will print few hundred shirts per hour. All of them have sufficiently good enough tech support. For everyday jobs, they all are 95% alike! The difference we are talking about here is not their ability to perform the everyday tasks, as they all do just fine, but rather the last 5%. Where one brand might have a one in a 1000 failure, another might have one in 10000. MHM (since that is the one I am familiar with) takes one min to change the plattens and and Anatol or M&R take two or so. We are nitpicking as that is what we like to talk about, but the reality is every single one of us here would gladly take any one of those new automatic presses as an upgrade from a manual and be absolutely ecstatic about it! The issues are so few and far in between. . .
pierre
-
As I print more on the 1996 Javelin I have I can quickly see how some of the new mordern features as simple as screen air clamps and a better micro system would save me tons of time so Pierre is correct almost any new press would be awesome coming from a manual or an old auto.
-
I think most options out there will get it done. But I do think there is something you give up with each and every one of them. Some its money, some its a feature(s), some its support/service, and so on. My goal was to find the one that had the best balance. I felt M&R did that for me.
I don't look down on anyone for buying any brand of press, they all print. At the end of the day they will all make you stacks of cash. I barely used my press compared to most of you, and ive made a grip of money with it for a 2 person shop that prints 1-2 days a week. Beats a manual hands down and easily pays for itself.
Look at it another way. We can all get from A to B in a Kia. Why is it most of us drive something else? The Kia is a cheap car, right?
Same applies here. Make your choice and make money with it.
-
Trying to add pics, from iPhone :-/
---
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=26.154732,-80.320761
-
Graphic Disorder, your post reminded me of a call I got a few weeks ago....A young kid with 2 employees worked his balls off all year and had nothing to show for his effort.....After talking with him for a few minutes, I discovered that he was using 2 manual presses because he could not scrape enough money together for an auto press....
-
Graphic Disorder, your post reminded me of a call I got a few weeks ago....A young kid with 2 employees worked his balls off all year and had nothing to show for his effort.....After talking with him for a few minutes, I discovered that he was using 2 manual presses because he could not scrape enough money together for an auto press....
Sad to hear. I know several like that.
I always took hiring as a last resort. It's worked for us so far. I hired a Auto first, which some said was a dumb move. It has allowed us to work faster and not have to print every day and its far cheaper than most employees. We also design and embroider and other things. So its been good for us. Adding the auto allowed us to print faster, so we could focus on increasing the embroidery business, which I did. I added a 4 head last month, we exploded with work this month in embroidery. In fact I paid myself back for the 4 head already in just over a month. How about that for return on investment. Just had our best 30days on the books ever and we still have 10 days left in the month so we could shatter that. This all happened this way because of the auto. So I guess my advice to others is if a 2 person shop who just started taking screen printing seriously in 2008 can do it, ANYONE can do it if you have the drive. I wouldn't cheap out for the cheapest press if you can avoid it at all. However my advice would be over and above all. GET ONE, but get the biggest baddest mofo you can afford, remember you will want bigger.
Of course we have now hired and he starts Jan 2nd. I can say this much Shelly and I took this business as far as 2 people could have in my opinion. So it was time for help. I look forward to seeing what we can do with more time. I think we have just touched the tip of the iceberg.
-
Graphic Disorder, your post reminded me of a call I got a few weeks ago....A young kid with 2 employees worked his balls off all year and had nothing to show for his effort.....After talking with him for a few minutes, I discovered that he was using 2 manual presses because he could not scrape enough money together for an auto press....
Sad to hear. I know several like that.
I always took hiring as a last resort. It's worked for us so far. I hired a Auto first, which some said was a dumb move. It has allowed us to work faster and not have to print every day and its far cheaper than most employees. We also design and embroider and other things. So its been good for us. Adding the auto allowed us to print faster, so we could focus on increasing the embroidery business, which I did. I added a 4 head last month, we exploded with work this month in embroidery. In fact I paid myself back for the 4 head already in just over a month. How about that for return on investment. Just had our best 30days on the books ever and we still have 10 days left in the month so we could shatter that. This all happened this way because of the auto. So I guess my advice to others is if a 2 person shop who just started taking screen printing seriously in 2008 can do it, ANYONE can do it if you have the drive. I wouldn't cheap out for the cheapest press if you can avoid it at all. However my advice would be over and above all. GET ONE, but get the biggest baddest mofo you can afford, remember you will want bigger.
Of course we have now hired and he starts Jan 2nd. I can say this much Shelly and I took this business as far as 2 people could have in my opinion. So it was time for help. I look forward to seeing what we can do with more time. I think we have just touched the tip of the iceberg.
similar experience here, very similar. It's a lot of hard work, but very doable. This is not a business model that suits everybody, but it is a good option for some ppl. It does provide quicker results, but damn it is hard and testing in the beginning.
pierre
-
Graphic Disorder, your post reminded me of a call I got a few weeks ago....A young kid with 2 employees worked his balls off all year and had nothing to show for his effort.....After talking with him for a few minutes, I discovered that he was using 2 manual presses because he could not scrape enough money together for an auto press....
Sad to hear. I know several like that.
I always took hiring as a last resort. It's worked for us so far. I hired a Auto first, which some said was a dumb move. It has allowed us to work faster and not have to print every day and its far cheaper than most employees. We also design and embroider and other things. So its been good for us. Adding the auto allowed us to print faster, so we could focus on increasing the embroidery business, which I did. I added a 4 head last month, we exploded with work this month in embroidery. In fact I paid myself back for the 4 head already in just over a month. How about that for return on investment. Just had our best 30days on the books ever and we still have 10 days left in the month so we could shatter that. This all happened this way because of the auto. So I guess my advice to others is if a 2 person shop who just started taking screen printing seriously in 2008 can do it, ANYONE can do it if you have the drive. I wouldn't cheap out for the cheapest press if you can avoid it at all. However my advice would be over and above all. GET ONE, but get the biggest baddest mofo you can afford, remember you will want bigger.
Of course we have now hired and he starts Jan 2nd. I can say this much Shelly and I took this business as far as 2 people could have in my opinion. So it was time for help. I look forward to seeing what we can do with more time. I think we have just touched the tip of the iceberg.
similar experience here, very similar. It's a lot of hard work, but very doable. This is not a business model that suits everybody, but it is a good option for some ppl. It does provide quicker results, but damn it is hard and testing in the beginning.
pierre
The hardest part for us was what to buy and to be even more specific, info about whats out there. ALL of them could be better at this. I suppose they all want you in front of a press so you can see it/feel it/use it, and that works as well. But a guy like me I want to see a lot of info, a lot of videos, a lot of feedback before id ever consider a press.
Buying it, or how to pay for it, was pretty easy, one decent job a month can pay for a press. Rest is gravy. I am a small timer and if I can do it everyone can. I am not even a printer, I am a designer who prints. LOL, so for a printer, this should be easy!
Once we pulled the trigger though, learning it was pretty damn easy. M&R helped a lot with this though, but we were printing shirts on our own day one and had never used a auto before in our life.
-
I agree there should be better ways to be able to "test drive" presses, for the most part you buy just off of info or if there is someone close to you with the model you are looking at and you are able to go see it and run it. I think thats what puts the RPM and others at a disadvantage.
-
I would venture a guess that through the manufacturers or distributors, you could get the name and address of a helpful and willing shop somewhere that is running an example of just about any current press in which you were interested.
-
I would venture a guess that through the manufacturers or distributors, you could get the name and address of a helpful and willing shop somewhere that is running an example of just about any current press in which you were interested.
Ill let anyone (well almost) that's interested in M&R come not only see ours, but use it. Print some screens, we can even shoot them here if someone wanted.
Pay it forward.
-
I'll second that
---
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=26.193795,-80.220370
-
I used to wade waist deep into this discussion but not any more. People are pretty passionate about what they invest in and rightfully so. Some of them get their panties in a wad pretty tight when you suggest there might be something just as good out there for less money. The only thing I can pitch in is this... I goddamn guarantee you that every brand mentioned in this thread will print a tee shirt and print it well. The only thing you have to figure out is how much you want to lay down.
-
We have talked tri-loc, mhm, newman pin. What about Vastex and their reg system? It seems cheap enough for the auto sized frames at about $1200. Anyone use one for their auto? I know Alan tore it apart and made his own.
-
I want a machine that will last and hold reg even if employees are tough with machines , I want a machine that will run at full , compressor barely kickin on, and my guys can switch over to the next 5 color within an hour ready to run and let's not forget to have a machine that operator is proud to work on and not aggri vate crazy that he'll stop caring About that perticular job
---
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=26.190618,-80.287626
-
We have talked tri-loc, mhm, newman pin. What about Vastex and their reg system? It seems cheap enough for the auto sized frames at about $1200. Anyone use one for their auto? I know Alan tore it apart and made his own.
Its decent, but its no tri-loc. I have both btw.
-
Not trying to sway the path of this thread, but since pre registration came up....I feel if you invest in a press, manual or auto, you NEED to have a system. QUIT WASTING TIME ON SET UPS. We can do an eight color in under 15 minutes. Screen, ink, squeegee and flood. Busty times we average 10 set ups per press per day. High screens, short runs. I'm happy where we are on set ups, but not satisfied.
-
Dave -what could make your set ups faster? It seems the slowest part for us is taking the platen off the press, putting on the one with the stops, and switching back. I am working on a solution for that today. I think ditching the carrier sheets is a huge step forward, I wish we could have the films come out of the printer in reg so I could have zero time registering the film on my glass.
-
I didn't think the vastex system worked very well at all. My own DIY, made with JB Weld worked better. It didn't look better, but it performed better. I never set up one job on the vastex that was even remotely close to be ready to go. Something was not right with ours. I think the stops were way off from the pallet jig to the FPU, but I tore it up long before I ever tried to figure out why it didn't work.
As far as not using carrier sheets, that's the way I roll. I hate them and won't use a system that has them. I'll modify it somehow and still get it to work. I use an FPU like the MHM with the triloc stop points and a pallet jig just like the triloc and it works great. I've set up many jobs, 6,7,8 color jobs that needed no micro work at all.
-
Dave -what could make your set ups faster? It seems the slowest part for us is taking the platen off the press, putting on the one with the stops, and switching back. I am working on a solution for that today. I think ditching the carrier sheets is a huge step forward, I wish we could have the films come out of the printer in reg so I could have zero time registering the film on my glass.
Sorry to derail the thread a bit!
The quickest way to do this is a CTS system. I know they are still expensive as far as the capital investment goes, but when you do the ROI it will pay itself quickly.
-
I can't wait to go DTS. DTS with a a good pallet jig for the press and you'll have the ultimate in pre registration systems...I hope.
I will have to wait a bit longer for our DTS though, we have made a rather large purchase recently so I'll have to wait another year or so.
-
I would venture a guess that through the manufacturers or distributors, you could get the name and address of a helpful and willing shop somewhere that is running an example of just about any current press in which you were interested.
Ill let anyone (well almost) that's interested in M&R come not only see ours, but use it. Print some screens, we can even shoot them here if someone wanted.
Pay it forward.
One thing this post has missed is the residual value of our presses and to that effect I have customers looking to purchase 2000 and up M&R automatics including six colors. Any for sale or want to trade in. We can help with the purchasers or put you directly in touch with them.
-
I would venture a guess that through the manufacturers or distributors, you could get the name and address of a helpful and willing shop somewhere that is running an example of just about any current press in which you were interested.
Ill let anyone (well almost) that's interested in M&R come not only see ours, but use it. Print some screens, we can even shoot them here if someone wanted.
Pay it forward.
One thing this post has missed is the residual value of our presses and to that effect I have customers looking to purchase 2000 and up M&R automatics including six colors. Any for sale or want to trade in. We can help with the purchasers or put you directly in touch with them.
Rich,
I was about to post about used presses. The best bang for your buck has to be a used press brand not important. I know this will start somthing but it is true. In this "Bad Economy" You can pick up a used press for next to nothing. It can be scarry buying a used press because you don't know what your getting and there is no warrentee. I got my press used and it did need some repairs but the cost was nothing compaired to a new press.
Jon
-
I would venture a guess that through the manufacturers or distributors, you could get the name and address of a helpful and willing shop somewhere that is running an example of just about any current press in which you were interested.
Ill let anyone (well almost) that's interested in M&R come not only see ours, but use it. Print some screens, we can even shoot them here if someone wanted.
Pay it forward.
One thing this post has missed is the residual value of our presses and to that effect I have customers looking to purchase 2000 and up M&R automatics including six colors. Any for sale or want to trade in. We can help with the purchasers or put you directly in touch with them.
I hope we continue to grow like we are, ill be looking to trade in or sell my Sporty for a CHIII
-
I would venture a guess that through the manufacturers or distributors, you could get the name and address of a helpful and willing shop somewhere that is running an example of just about any current press in which you were interested.
Ill let anyone (well almost) that's interested in M&R come not only see ours, but use it. Print some screens, we can even shoot them here if someone wanted.
Pay it forward.
One thing this post has missed is the residual value of our presses and to that effect I have customers looking to purchase 2000 and up M&R automatics including six colors. Any for sale or want to trade in. We can help with the purchasers or put you directly in touch with them.
Rich,
I was about to post about used presses. The best bang for your buck has to be a used press brand not important. I know this will start somthing but it is true. In this "Bad Economy" You can pick up a used press for next to nothing. It can be scarry buying a used press because you don't know what your getting and there is no warrentee. I got my press used and it did need some repairs but the cost was nothing compaired to a new press.
Jon
I don't agree with the statement brand not important and maybe that is because I am bias but I don't think so. We as a manufacturer will take ours in trade and the brand has a higher residual value on the used market. that can be seen by how fast a used Gauntlet or Sportsman last on the forums.
-
I would venture a guess that through the manufacturers or distributors, you could get the name and address of a helpful and willing shop somewhere that is running an example of just about any current press in which you were interested.
Ill let anyone (well almost) that's interested in M&R come not only see ours, but use it. Print some screens, we can even shoot them here if someone wanted.
Pay it forward.
One thing this post has missed is the residual value of our presses and to that effect I have customers looking to purchase 2000 and up M&R automatics including six colors. Any for sale or want to trade in. We can help with the purchasers or put you directly in touch with them.
Rich,
I was about to post about used presses. The best bang for your buck has to be a used press brand not important. I know this will start somthing but it is true. In this "Bad Economy" You can pick up a used press for next to nothing. It can be scarry buying a used press because you don't know what your getting and there is no warrentee. I got my press used and it did need some repairs but the cost was nothing compaired to a new press.
Jon
I don't agree with the statement brand not important and maybe that is because I am bias but I don't think so. We as a manufacturer will take ours in trade and the brand has a higher residual value on the used market. that can be seen by how fast a used Gauntlet or Sportsman last on the forums.
I wonder how long a 2007-2011 Gauntlet II or Z would last on the used market? Maybe a couple hours if the price was right, or if the price is high...a day or so. I don't see too many of those for sale, at least not a late model, I only see the 90's models and they don't last very long.
-
I think if money is a factor getting into an auto anything is a smart move but if you have the funds available then of course go with current technology. I got a new to me Hopkins manual, 6 color jav, air compressor, chiller and new screens for under 8K. But I can see where the newer technology would help me tremendously.
-
Rich brings up a huge point.
Resale value is amazing on a M&R, NOBODY can argue that, and that played to our choice as well. You dont see them sit long.
-
Maybe I am wrong here but if I wanted a used press it would be an Anatol at 50% of the new price vs an M&R at 80% of the new price if you planned on keeping it a while. Maybe I shouldn't think that way but I always look at "best bang for the buck"
-
Sorry guys I didn't mean to make this a defend your press brand post. You guys are way too sensitive about your brand. I said "The best bang for your buck has to be a used press brand not important." Meaning if you buy a used press of the brand you want, buying used is a better bang for your buck. Of course as long as you can get it printing shirts and doesn't cost too much to fix anything that is wrong with it.
-
Maybe I am wrong here but if I wanted a used press it would be an Anatol at 50% of the new price vs an M&R at 80% of the new price if you planned on keeping it a while. Maybe I shouldn't think that way but I always look at "best bang for the buck"
You should buy what makes you happy, if a used Anatol is what you want, by all means jump on it. But once you buy the Anatol, what will its value be a few more years down the road when your ready to step up? What would a M&R's be? Just a honest question you should consider.
-
Maybe I am wrong here but if I wanted a used press it would be an Anatol at 50% of the new price vs an M&R at 80% of the new price if you planned on keeping it a while. Maybe I shouldn't think that way but I always look at "best bang for the buck"
That makes sense only if the Used Anatol was the same quality and same support as the used M&R, there is an obvious reason the Anatol has a lower used price.
-
This thread is great.
I want to chime in on three points. We're a manual shop. Small, 3-4 employee operation with under $200k in sales per year. That number is deceptive though because only about 50-60% of that dollar figure is custom print work, the rest is pre-print retail sales that have a much higher margin or less work for the dollar amount.
This year I made the business mistake of investing in people instead of automated print equipment. I would argue that my choice of staff may have effected this heavily but it doesn't degrade the point made earlier that an equipment payment and a machine is better than payroll and HR. It's just the way of things. Now, I've spent my equity upon staff, never to be reclaimed and have none for the auto until later on. Upon finally moving to our new space in the next month, we're ready for automation in most every way and the press would be a drag and drop into our workflow more or less. When getting mid-sized orders we do have to battle against the clock to keep up with production printing manually, sometimes you just can't win that fight without going unpaid hours and pulling late or all-nighters. I wish I had spent the money that I now see as wasted on payroll and the professional fees associated with the business structure, etc. I was creating on an auto press instead. It would have changed my position for the better in many, many ways. So +1 for that argument. If you're reading this and have the equity, get the damn machine. As others have said, even if you think you're a smaller, slower shop, like GraphicDisorder here, the machine will pay for itself in short time. Don't make my mistake.
There was a discussion on the weight or 'heft' of the machines. As a manual printer I'm quite intimate with the weight differences between presses. We currently have an Anatol Thunder and this press is built very light, the press heads can't even rest in the down position without a screen loaded, but the design allows for it. It holds registration just as well as the Chameleon we had before. Arguably, it holds better parameters then the Chameleon as the lighter weight prevents the platens and heads from getting jarred out of parallel in heavy day to day production.
Which brings me to my next point. We made a small profit on the sale of the used Chameleon. Within a week, multiple buyers were lined up and one made an offer just a few hundred shy of my asking price and they're just tickled shitless with the whole transaction. The sale of that machine afforded us a brand new press form another brand with the air clamp upgrade on the heads. We did this simply because my printers couldn't deal with the weight of the chameleon, we needed air clamps and we all hate "x-y, anti-droop plate" style micros with a burning passion. Those are the only reasons we switched as that press was built to print Ts after the apocalypse. The residual value of M&R machines are miles ahead of any other brand of press out there, it's true.
And this residual value doesn't just come from the build quality of M&R but there total commitment to their products. They think about the integration of various parts, they keep it simple, use quality components, build it well and they support everything they've ever made like their livelihood depends on it. Above all, M&R equipment, in my experience is always ready to go. I spent more time effing around with our brand new Anatol than it would have taken to refurb a used M&R and that's no exaggeration. Anatol has been super-responsive, easy to work with and have fixed, or are working on fixing, all the issues- I'm happy with the machine, it suits us very well. But the machine was not ready to print on delivery, it wasn't even registered properly, and was not well thought out or properly manufactured and assembled on many levels. I expect to make many more replacements and retrofits as time passes. When it was time for another piece of gear, I went M&R because what's the fun in getting new equip when you have to do so much work on it? I know that our Red Chili is going to work out of the box more than likely and won't be riddled with puzzling issues. I know I won't be calling over and over and feeling like a crazy person everytime I find the next silly problem with it. I know they thoughy about it when they designed it, saw that design through production and will support the hell out of the purchase. No other company covers all the bases like this. The argument here is that while some machines may not be too fancy or have the feature set you'd really like to see, if done well, you'll be up and running and rarely down for the long life of it.
Last point on this lengthy post- I'm all about the most heads you can afford and your space will accommodate. My ideal print run, regardless of the number of colors would always have a greaser screen in head 1, the option to pre-flash, room for two flashes, cool-downs and a space for a post-flash. Yeah, that's probably a 16 color press or something but think of the time saved not having to reconfigure heads and how many mis-prints could be avoided will still running fast when printing sleeves or delicates if you could post flash before unloading for example? and the list goes on and on.
Again, this post is the jam. Good input you all.
-
This thread is great.
I want to chime in on three points. We're a manual shop. Small, 3-4 employee operation with under $200k in sales per year. That number is deceptive though because only about 50-60% of that dollar figure is custom print work, the rest is pre-print retail sales that have a much higher margin or less work for the dollar amount.
This year I made the business mistake of investing in people instead of automated print equipment. I would argue that my choice of staff may have effected this heavily but it doesn't degrade the point made earlier that an equipment payment and a machine is better than payroll and HR. It's just the way of things. Now, I've spent my equity upon staff, never to be reclaimed and have none for the auto until later on. Upon finally moving to our new space in the next month, we're ready for automation in most every way and the press would be a drag and drop into our workflow more or less. When getting mid-sized orders we do have to battle against the clock to keep up with production printing manually, sometimes you just can't win that fight without going unpaid hours and pulling late or all-nighters. I wish I had spent the money that I now see as wasted on payroll and the professional fees associated with the business structure, etc. I was creating on an auto press instead. It would have changed my position for the better in many, many ways. So +1 for that argument. If you're reading this and have the equity, get the damn machine. As others have said, even if you think you're a smaller, slower shop, like GraphicDisorder here, the machine will pay for itself in short time. Don't make my mistake.
I agree. We do a good bit more than that per year with just 2 people and more equipment. I am not saying it works for everyone, but I fit us to a T. We did all we can do and we have hired now. But I don't think I would do it any different if I had to do it over. I wouldn't want to be in your spot with more mouths to feed without the equipment to make that possible.
Had our press since Feb and quoting software since March (makes it easy to track what I have done on the press), and it did us well into 6 figures in business off of it just running probably average 3-6 business days a month. Sure the big time guys are looking at me going your press should be running every day, your right, but that doesn't mean I can't run it like I do and turn a profit. We are having our best month ever, and its not even over yet.
What I do know is I have the capability to run a lot more volume through here, just add hands. Which frankly is a faster process than adding machines. So I have the machines out of the way now, we simply sell a little harder and hire some more hands and it should all become used very heavy. I think I have all the right equipment in here to do several times what we are doing per year right now just by adding hands.
Another way to look at it, you can hire a auto for half to a 1/3 what some employees might cost you, at least ones with any real skill.
-
actually, as a small business, adding meaningful and competent employees is significantly harder than buying equipment. I was told you have to go through 8 ppl before you find one that really fits.
So while having ppl there is not necessarily a standard way of doing it, it is not a wrong way either. People are by far the most important asset in any company. Try taking any one of us here away from the company and see what happens. Lose a press and you can get another one!
pierre
-
Well I have pictured my 1988 6 color gauntlet and my 10 color sportsman ex. And wouldn't trade neither one for another brand. I step out of box a lot ,but when it comes to feeding my family ,I know my presses won't let me down. As far as tri loc, I've seriously seriously been looking into it. But my guys haven't been to bad at setting up.
-
Thats true, But what about having good printers that are quick great workers but get furious when a job keeps coming out reg. Then Im getting upset that jobs aren't coming off press quick enough. Gotta have the right tools for the right staff.
-
actually, as a small business, adding meaningful and competent employees is significantly harder than buying equipment. I was told you have to go through 8 ppl before you find one that really fits.
So while having ppl there is not necessarily a standard way of doing it, it is not a wrong way either. People are by far the most important asset in any company. Try taking any one of us here away from the company and see what happens. Lose a press and you can get another one!
pierre
I am in no way saying people aren't important. You misunderstood.
My first employee I am hiring in at around 40k a year, I know him well, I know his capabilities and I know what he will bring to the table. I found finding a guy of his caliber easier than deciding/finding/buying equipment. I am sure for some its hard to find the right people, im sure down the road finding people may be a bump in the road or a revolving door for awhile. But its not always like that either. Nothing is that cut and dry. Just giving my experience.
Having the right tool for the job is often more important than having the right person for the job. I am not saying its always that way. All I know is I was a pretty shitty printer on a 1 station ebay press, I was a lot better printer on a Vastex Manual, and today I am a pretty awesome printer on a M&R Sportsman. I haven't changed much, my tools have. Food for thought.
-
actually, as a small business, adding meaningful and competent employees is significantly harder than buying equipment. I was told you have to go through 8 ppl before you find one that really fits.
So while having ppl there is not necessarily a standard way of doing it, it is not a wrong way either. People are by far the most important asset in any company. Try taking any one of us here away from the company and see what happens. Lose a press and you can get another one!
pierre
I am in no way saying people aren't important. You misunderstood.
My first employee I am hiring in at around 40k a year, I know him well, I know his capabilities and I know what he will bring to the table. I found finding a guy of his caliber easier than deciding/finding/buying equipment. I am sure for some its hard to find the right people, im sure down the road finding people may be a bump in the road or a revolving door for awhile. But its not always like that either. Nothing is that cut and dry. Just giving my experience.
Having the right tool for the job is often more important than having the right person for the job. I am not saying its always that way. All I know is I was a pretty shitty printer on a 1 station ebay press, I was a lot better printer on a Vastex Manual, and today I am a pretty awesome printer on a M&R Sportsman. I haven't changed much, my tools have. Food for thought.
if you allow me, I'll disagree with you. This is not to say that I am right and you are wrong, just that my opinion, based on my experiences is different and thus I draw different conclusions. WHat works for me is not bery likely to work for anybody else as we are all different . . .
First, wait till you have the employee for a year before you judge him. Your opinions of ppl change as you spend time with them and you get to really know them. I've had best friends turn into enemies and acquaintances turn into best friends. It is almost (at least for me) impossible to predict what somebody will be like long term. I do remember you and Shelly saying he is a good friend and that you go back long waays, so hopefully it works out for you! I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.
Second, I will say that you as printer grew and changed. If somebody gave you that nice and shiny auto when you were starting it would do you no good. But as time went by, you learned more and can take advantage of the god equipment. Chances are, your prints on that cheap ebay press would look pretty good with what you know now!
pierre
-
Well I have pictured my 1988 6 color gauntlet and my 10 color sportsman ex. And wouldn't trade neither one for another brand. I step out of box a lot ,but when it comes to feeding my family ,I know my presses won't let me down. As far as tri loc, I've seriously seriously been looking into it. But my guys haven't been to bad at setting up.
Dave, congrats on the new press!!! You got a very nice piece of equipment, it should be very exciting!
As far as the trilock, it should be your next purchase. No matter how you twist it, setting up the jobs in half the time and reducing the frustration is the best investment you can make now. Pull the trigger and you can thank us all later!
pierre
-
actually, as a small business, adding meaningful and competent employees is significantly harder than buying equipment. I was told you have to go through 8 ppl before you find one that really fits.
So while having ppl there is not necessarily a standard way of doing it, it is not a wrong way either. People are by far the most important asset in any company. Try taking any one of us here away from the company and see what happens. Lose a press and you can get another one!
pierre
I am in no way saying people aren't important. You misunderstood.
My first employee I am hiring in at around 40k a year, I know him well, I know his capabilities and I know what he will bring to the table. I found finding a guy of his caliber easier than deciding/finding/buying equipment. I am sure for some its hard to find the right people, im sure down the road finding people may be a bump in the road or a revolving door for awhile. But its not always like that either. Nothing is that cut and dry. Just giving my experience.
Having the right tool for the job is often more important than having the right person for the job. I am not saying its always that way. All I know is I was a pretty shitty printer on a 1 station ebay press, I was a lot better printer on a Vastex Manual, and today I am a pretty awesome printer on a M&R Sportsman. I haven't changed much, my tools have. Food for thought.
if you allow me, I'll disagree with you. This is not to say that I am right and you are wrong, just that my opinion, based on my experiences is different and thus I draw different conclusions. WHat works for me is not bery likely to work for anybody else as we are all different . . .
First, wait till you have the employee for a year before you judge him. Your opinions of ppl change as you spend time with them and you get to really know them. I've had best friends turn into enemies and acquaintances turn into best friends. It is almost (at least for me) impossible to predict what somebody will be like long term. I do remember you and Shelly saying he is a good friend and that you go back long waays, so hopefully it works out for you! I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.
Second, I will say that you as printer grew and changed. If somebody gave you that nice and shiny auto when you were starting it would do you no good. But as time went by, you learned more and can take advantage of the god equipment. Chances are, your prints on that cheap ebay press would look pretty good with what you know now!
pierre
Yes our new hire is a long time friend, over 10 years now. He works in the print industry but not in textiles. He is VERY good at art, in fact smokes me and Shelly and most would consider us very good. Hes 10x as good as us. See im not just hiring a printer, in fact I am not even hiring him as a printer. He's a all around guy, used to screen print on his own, has run our embroidery machines in a pinch, does amazing artwork, and so on. He brings a lot to the table and is a guy that Id trust to run the ship if I was sick or needed to take a week off to live. There will be challenges I am sure working with one of my best friends. I know a lot about those, I work with my GF day in and day out, and that is tough. But yes we had this talk with him and we crossed off the important stuff like work is work and play is play. I was confident we both can treat it as such or I wouldn't have made that move. After all I could have hired someone much cheaper. He's got talent. I think you will see us do a lot of bigger things once we have him here. Maybe I am wrong, lets hope not.
As for printing now on a ebay press? Sure it would be better now, but that's not exactly what I meant. When we had that press we had shitty exposure unit and everything else that supported it. Tools are VERY important to a job. You know it and I know it. I am not saying its end all be all. I am saying mostly we grew because of the tools. We are not that experienced of a printer. I probably print in a year what some of you print in a month or less even. However my tools have allowed me to move up in skill quick, because the tools are so easy to use. Remember I am a design that prints, not a printer that designs. It's kind of like changing your own oil. Sure you can do it with nearly no tools, but a oil filter wrench and a nice oil bucket sure makes it easier.
-
I hope I didn't come across as de-valuing people. I actually far over-value most folks or so I'm told. If I told some of you the options I've given the people I worked with over the last year most of you would want to slap me. I'm a very poor business person in many respects but I do strive to be a reasonable human. There's nothing fun about being righteous and broke though.
But, as a business owner from what I have experienced, I agree with GD on equipment first, then staff.
I also agree with Pierre on the time you need for staff to settle in as well as the difficulty in finding the right people.
And you can do good work and be profitable with a manual operation, I have in the past and was quite happy with our numbers, it's just very important to sense when a transition is made with your revenue and take the right step at the right time. I failed that test but learned a hell of a lot.
*one last thought is that while I say equip first, then hiring, it is a lot easier to change the size of your workforce that it is to change your equipment. but again, autos with high re-sale value will be paid off past the point they would sell for quickly so it's still a smaller risk than it might seem.
-
We should take a tally equipment first or employees ???
-
Equipment with no doubt.
-
We should take a tally equipment first or employees ???
I have gone the equipment route, but I think employee route is just as good under some circumstances. Nah, the more I think about it more it seems that the equipment should come before employees. But then, you cna let go of the employee and you can't stop paying for the equipment . . . I don't know, I am confused!
pierre
-
I look at equipment in how easy is it to pay for, you can make equipment payment with profit from a day or so running. So I would suggest if you can't make that work then maybe rethink being in business all together.
Most employees would cost more than most equipment. Which one can you see best return on investment?
-
The problem for most folks is you can pay for employees by the week without "pre-approval" but getting financing on some equipment is tough.....
-
The problem for most folks is you can pay for employees by the week without "pre-approval" but getting financing on some equipment is tough.....
Is it? I had planned on using a specific SBA loan {504 I believe} for equipment upgrades/space improvements when I felt the time was right. It's a one-shot deal where you get the loan for a specific piece of equip I believe, still need to research it more. The concept with the loan is you put a typically 10% down payment on the machine loan, then there's the equity remaining in it's used market value. For the risk, the gov't takes a chunk of the risk off the lender, and the lender shoulders the rest. So long as you have a reasonable credit history and a real need for the machine it doesn't seem like a stretch to ask for such a thing.
This gets back to those M&R machines and they're used market value. Take a look at the example I made up off the top of my head below. The repayment period is up to 10 yrs on the aforementioned loan for equip. Below is the way my primitive brain is seeing this:
Press 40k
Down pmt. - 4k
--------------------------------
Loan amt. 36k (more with fees)
Resell Value - 20k
--------------------------------
Risk 16k
SBA 40% -16k
Lender Risk 0
Again, not drawn to scale.
Payments on the machine, @ 8% would be something like $485 per month. Show somebody who services 504 loans you are consistently retaining $500 / month in profit and seems like they'd help you get that press.... and be smiling all the way as, if this example is accurate at all, the servicers of these loans are making loot with little risk.
I used 50% of new price for the resell value, which is what lenders do. But we all know that, in a few years when you've outgrown the machine or decided to close your business, whatever, that the press, if it was M&R is going to fetch a little more than 50% of buy price more than likely if it's well-kept. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I figured this is a price you could fetch a loaded Diamondback XL 8/10 setup for which would likely sell for as a package for more than 20k in a few years.
-
Equipment
-
There seems to be a lot of talk in this topic about MHM, M&R, RPM, etc. what about Anatol, Workhorse, etc. do we have any other brand users here?
-
(http://images.andrewsmcmeel.com/media/3982/large.jpg)
-
:-X
-
I think Workhorse is double the money of what they should be in the Freedom and Javelin models. The Falcons are the only machines that I would consider from that manufacturer.
-
([url]http://images.andrewsmcmeel.com/media/3982/large.jpg[/url])
LOL!!!!!!!!
-
the way I see it, the top dogs are there for a reason. That speaks volumes... I am going with M&R for many reasons, but the main reason is customer service. You guys said it, at the end of the day all the machines will all print shirts. But is after the sale that means the world to me. I met with Glen Carliss about a month ago, he walked me through every phase of laying out my new shop, and I have to say, I have never met such a cool guy, proud to work and represent M&R, I felt like he was honest and willing to help me - and I'm not a huge company. But the guy still took time out of his day to meet with me and go over plans and we bullshtted for a few hours. I am excited to know these guys have my back, that's what makes me sleep at night. And Barnsy is trying to get me on a mustang, and I am definitely looking at it, but I sincerely trust M&R with my business. And if you knew me, there are only a hand few of people I sincerely trust. . . my business is my life.
-
but I sincerely trust M&R with my business. And if you knew me, there are only a hand few of people I sincerely trust. . . my business is my life.
I trusted M&R, it did well for me.
I think you already know what to do.
-
I think that trust and respect (and the reciprocal return of respect) may even trump the absolute bottom line.
There are companies out there whose pasts come into play in these purchasing decisions.
Bankruptcies, boasts of wealth but of never making good on financial settlements, public attacks on rivals, and just general disrespect can (rightly) get in the way of deals with folks who have souls, or at least a good set of values. To some folks, character counts.
Fortunately for at least one guy and his team, there are many potential buyers unaware of past behavior. There are also some who are seduced by financial incentives, no matter the cost to the soul.
Bummer, as bad behavior should never be rewarded.
And unlike what I was told by a principle player in one of these companies, deceit does not need to be standard operation procedure or integral to the marketing of equipment.
These features are a less tangible part of the equation, but need to be factored in as well.
-
Wanna bring this thread back to life as I just came across the M&R Diamondback XL 8 color 10 station servo driven with a 20x21 print at about 35K, seems like a great value. Anybody running one? I guess if you added AC heads you would be in the price range of a similiar RPM but with the digital controls the RPM may get the nod. Or if RPM had pneumatic printheads it would be close to the price of the Diamondback, hmmm.