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screen printing => Waterbase and Discharge => Topic started by: im_mcguire on June 28, 2019, 04:01:30 PM
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Anyone here using this? I just got a sample in, and Im looking to try it out next week. Just curious if anyone here can give any feedback with using it as a underboss with plastisol top colors.
Thanks all!
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We have tested it a bit, I think it works great and in side by side testing with changing no settings it made the print look nicer. The top colors look smoother, less mottling, and good results.
However, the people I work with don't care about quality, more quantity, so it was kind of killed before it ever had a chance unfortunately. (depressingly)
I think it is much easier to use as you only have to manage 1 screen of water base instead of all of them. I don't have long term wash results, but I think that it is a good product.
Let us know your testing results, I want to try to bring it back to life in our off season.
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We have tested it a bit, I think it works great and in side by side testing with changing no settings it made the print look nicer. The top colors look smoother, less mottling, and good results.
However, the people I work with don't care about quality, more quantity, so it was kind of killed before it ever had a chance unfortunately. (depressingly)
I think it is much easier to use as you only have to manage 1 screen of water base instead of all of them. I don't have long term wash results, but I think that it is a good product.
Let us know your testing results, I want to try to bring it back to life in our off season.
Thats awesome to hear! I had a shop just do a larger order for us, and one of my clients loves discharge/waterbase, and they ran a Wilflex Aquaris underboss with plastisol top colors, and it looked and felt amazing. This was a new product I just heard about, so I wanted to give it a shot.
Yeah, Ill let everyone know once I can get some samples off press. Ill make sure to upload some side by side photos of plastisol base vs killer base.
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Wilflex Aquaris underboss with plastisol top colors, and it looked and felt amazing
I've done some testing like that in the past, albeit with Matsui 301 Stretch and had the plastisol colors wash off over time, so I like the idea that the Killer Base is formulated for printing plastisol on top in theory. But that instance could've came down to under curing, over curing the base, or many other factors.
But adhesion between the water base and oil base inks are important so having something purpose made gives a bit more piece of mind, but still test, wash, test.
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We are running 2 10 color designs on Monday using it. I will post results. These are both designs we have ran before using quick white as the base so we will have side by side results using the same colors/ mesh and squeegies to start. I have heard good things but color matching similar to the original print is critical for us. we have sampled all of our retail designs and production has to be dead nuts on.
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We are running 2 10 color designs on Monday using it. I will post results. These are both designs we have ran before using quick white as the base so we will have side by side results using the same colors/ mesh and squeegies to start. I have heard good things but color matching similar to the original print is critical for us. we have sampled all of our retail designs and production has to be dead nuts on.
Thats great! Id love to see the results!
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We finished our tests of 3 designs. I cannot post them as they are Disney. We substituted our normal base white ( quick) and used the killer base with 3 percent gel retarder.. We dropped the mesh to 200 instead of the 230. 230 is high for HSA. The results were excellent. exact matches to the plastisol base with a little better briteness. SUPER nice hand , not quite discharge but very close. No drying in the screen issues. It works on all fabrics they say other than 100 percent poly but who knows with all the variences there and the posicharge stuff. This stuff is amazing. We will do a second round of testing next week with a 4c process design on darks
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We finished our tests of 3 designs. I cannot post them as they are Disney. We substituted our normal base white ( quick) and used the killer base with 3 percent gel retarder.. We dropped the mesh to 200 instead of the 230. 230 is high for HSA. The results were excellent. exact matches to the plastisol base with a little better briteness. SUPER nice hand , not quite discharge but very close. No drying in the screen issues. It works on all fabrics they say other than 100 percent poly but who knows with all the variences there and the posicharge stuff. This stuff is amazing. We will do a second round of testing next week with a 4c process design on darks
we reguarly use HSA on 230s, and 280s! so that's strange to hear you say that 230 is to high.
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We finished our tests of 3 designs. I cannot post them as they are Disney. We substituted our normal base white ( quick) and used the killer base with 3 percent gel retarder.. We dropped the mesh to 200 instead of the 230. 230 is high for HSA. The results were excellent. exact matches to the plastisol base with a little better briteness. SUPER nice hand , not quite discharge but very close. No drying in the screen issues. It works on all fabrics they say other than 100 percent poly but who knows with all the variences there and the posicharge stuff. This stuff is amazing. We will do a second round of testing next week with a 4c process design on darks
we reguarly use HSA on 230s, and 280s! so that's strange to hear you say that 230 is to high.
I think maybe the dry heat here in vegas? The 200 gave us a better result. What is your set up with the Magna killer base? I think the chemistry is different with this product.
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We finished our tests of 3 designs. I cannot post them as they are Disney. We substituted our normal base white ( quick) and used the killer base with 3 percent gel retarder.. We dropped the mesh to 200 instead of the 230. 230 is high for HSA. The results were excellent. exact matches to the plastisol base with a little better briteness. SUPER nice hand , not quite discharge but very close. No drying in the screen issues. It works on all fabrics they say other than 100 percent poly but who knows with all the variences there and the posicharge stuff. This stuff is amazing. We will do a second round of testing next week with a 4c process design on darks
we reguarly use HSA on 230s, and 280s! so that's strange to hear you say that 230 is to high.
We are same as Eric. We're you following manufacturer instructions or just going low for trial runs?
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Simone was here with Naz Dar and he is a magna tech guy. It was his recommendation to drop the mesh it actually looked great with the original 230 but dropping to a 200 and using a sharp 70/90/70 gave us a little beefyer base and s more vibrant print. Like I said it was day one of testing. We are ordering 30 gallons and will run 50 designs over the next couple weeks and try every combo I just wanted to post what we did today. Right or wrong that’s what we did today and are happy with the results
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we are using matsui, but just today i did around 20 230 screens with HSA, and another 5 or so with 280s. We also do 305 and 355 regularly with matsui hsa.
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I don't think there is a right or wrong just whatever works for your shop / client. But good news is if you do need to go higher you can.
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Yea we wanted to start with the reccomended 230 we are using the wilflex equalizer system with amazing base for the overprint colors. These jobs were already sampled and approved for production so the goal was to nail what was approved and we needed the beefyer base to do so. We did see a difference in the hand though. We have 70 samples to do next week so we will probably sample using it also and then take your guys recommendation and bump up the mesh
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How about wash tests? How did it hold up?
Is the cure time/settings through the dryer different considering it's HSA?
How did it perform on press with flashing? Did you have to change your flash temps or dwell time?
Quick white is our jam, we love how fast it flashes and so little tak on the next screen.
We keep our plastisol prints separated from our WB/DC/HSA prints since the drying/curing variables are so different. On a rare occasion we'll do a discharge base with plastisol top colors, but we've had mixed results through extended wash tests.
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How about wash tests? How did it hold up?
Is the cure time/settings through the dryer different considering it's HSA?
How did it perform on press with flashing? Did you have to change your flash temps or dwell time?
Quick white is our jam, we love how fast it flashes and so little tak on the next screen.
We keep our plastisol prints separated from our WB/DC/HSA prints since the drying/curing variables are so different. On a rare occasion we'll do a discharge base with plastisol top colors, but we've had mixed results through extended wash tests.
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The week after next I will post more detailed results. Maybe Eric and brandon could chime back in they run these products daily. Quick white is our go to also,
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we almost exclusively use matsui ink here, and we build all of our inks for every job. So we have all sorts of additives in our inks. I do not know how that compares or contrasts to magna.
We cure our jobs anywhere from 280 to 340 degrees, and keep goods in the chamber for 1m 30 seconds to 2m.
wash tests: so far we havent' had any failures. Even on personal shirts i have where we wash and wear multiple times a week, zero to no cracking/breaking of the ink.
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First I didn't read every post here so I might be asking something after ready mentioned, but anyway we've use a DC underbase with plastisol on top and wow the print was great and wash test was great. Now the problem there s every shirt order we print here want discharge, how do you get around that or does a good water base white ink print nice and bright as a underbase? If I could use DC/waterbase white inks for an underbase on all shirt colors and blends I'd love that a bunch.
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First I didn't read every post here so I might be asking something after ready mentioned, but anyway we've use a DC underbase with plastisol on top and wow the print was great and wash test was great. Now the problem there s every shirt order we print here want discharge, how do you get around that or does a good water base white ink print nice and bright as a underbase? If I could use DC/waterbase white inks for an underbase on all shirt colors and blends I'd love that a bunch.
if the shirt is non discharagable, you use HSA waterbase to fill that gap, and print it with an underbase. In fact, we regularly will print HSA on garments that are discharge friendly, depending on the client, and what the purpose of the shirts are for.
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First I didn't read every post here so I might be asking something after ready mentioned, but anyway we've use a DC underbase with plastisol on top and wow the print was great and wash test was great. Now the problem there s every shirt order we print here want discharge, how do you get around that or does a good water base white ink print nice and bright as a underbase? If I could use DC/waterbase white inks for an underbase on all shirt colors and blends I'd love that a bunch.
if the shirt is non discharagable, you use HSA waterbase to fill that gap, and print it with an underbase. In fact, we regularly will print HSA on garments that are discharge friendly, depending on the client, and what the purpose of the shirts are for.
Preach it brother :D
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I just ordered 120 kg of the product. The reason it is so appealing here besides the obvious benefits is we can run prints with the same inks we ran when we sampled the designs with a plastisol base and most retail production may have 2-3 different style garments with the same art. The 3 we did yesterday were right on the money in fact the colors were slightly briter and a truer match. Flash times were actually faster than with the quick white.
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Where are you ordering from? Would like to try this out but nazda doesn’t seem to have much in stock.
Does GSG have stock ready?
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Where are you ordering from? Would like to try this out but nazda doesn’t seem to have much in stock.
Does GSG have stock ready?
I got my sample by requesting it from Magna Print Direct via email.
info@magnacolours.com
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Where are you ordering from? Would like to try this out but nazda doesn’t seem to have much in stock.
Does GSG have stock ready?
NAZ DAR HAS 120KG QTYS IN CALIFORNIA BUT CAN SHIP 5 KG AND 20 KG OUT OF FLORIDA.. THEY HAVE STOCK. Sorry about the caps not yelling
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Where are you ordering from? Would like to try this out but nazda doesn’t seem to have much in stock.
Does GSG have stock ready?
I got my sample by requesting it from Magna Print Direct via email.
info@magnacolours.com
I might add, that I did ask Nazdar first, and they would not ship out a sample. I then contacted Magna, and they had Nazdar ship out a sample. So if nazdar gives you any guff, hit up magna. But I would go through Nazdar first.
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Our rep for NAZ DAR out here is Chad. He is very good in regards to samples.
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Ok so to rephrase a bit here. I guess I'm just curious how the adhesion of plastisol on HSA holds up in the wash?
And does it require longer dwell time in the dryer?
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We ran at 10ft/ min with 12 ft of heat with the temp set at 340 degrees.. We did 5 wash tests and yoiu could not tell the print had been washed. I don't think it needs that much retention time though. we just sent off also for Disney testing. The killer base was formulated to over print with plastisol and that's how they are marketing it. Atotally different situation than overprinting discharge with plastisol.
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We ran at 10ft/ min with 12 ft of heat with the temp set at 340 degrees.. We did 5 wash tests and yoiu could not tell the print had been washed. I don't think it needs that much retention time though. we just sent off also for Disney testing. The killer base was formulated to over print with plastisol and that's how they are marketing it. Atotally different situation than overprinting discharge with plastisol.
Let me quote the Data Sheet for the Magna Killerbase
"After printing the garment/panel should be cured, ideally for 1½- 2 minutes at 155-165°C (310 - 330°F) *or in line with plastisol ink curing requirements. "
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We ran at 10ft/ min with 12 ft of heat with the temp set at 340 degrees.. We did 5 wash tests and yoiu could not tell the print had been washed. I don't think it needs that much retention time though. we just sent off also for Disney testing. The killer base was formulated to over print with plastisol and that's how they are marketing it. Atotally different situation than overprinting discharge with plastisol.
Let me quote the Data Sheet for the Magna Killerbase
"After printing the garment/panel should be cured, ideally for 1½- 2 minutes at 155-165°C (310 - 330°F) *or in line with plastisol ink curing requirements. "
Thanks Its great to have a base line.
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We ran at 10ft/ min with 12 ft of heat with the temp set at 340 degrees.. We did 5 wash tests and yoiu could not tell the print had been washed. I don't think it needs that much retention time though. we just sent off also for Disney testing. The killer base was formulated to over print with plastisol and that's how they are marketing it. Atotally different situation than overprinting discharge with plastisol.
Let me quote the Data Sheet for the Magna Killerbase
"After printing the garment/panel should be cured, ideally for 1½- 2 minutes at 155-165°C (310 - 330°F) *or in line with plastisol ink curing requirements. "
Sounds pretty awesome to me!
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Got some on the way. Can you run quick white for the top white on this? Anybody tried this through a electric dryer?
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The killer base is a low bleed product and we have been running quick white as the highlight white. That's a great plastisol white with a really soft hand.
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Does anyone know if magnaprint aquaflex and pigments expire?
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Just got back from the Origins class that Magna sponsored. They did clarify that killer base is not to be used with low cure plastisol inks. I m using wilflex Rio was having a problems with my colors cracking off and showing the white base after a few washes.
Also, on any kind of blend or shirt that needs stretch...add 20-50% Aquaflex v2
Other than that, for the price and how well it prints...it’s a game changer for printers looking to ditch the plastisol base. Just taking that factor out of your print changes the hand completely.
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Just got back from the Origins class that Magna sponsored. They did clarify that killer base is not to be used with low cure plastisol inks. I m using wilflex Rio was having a problems with my colors cracking off and showing the white base after a few washes.
Also, on any kind of blend or shirt that needs stretch...add 20-50% Aquaflex v2
Other than that, for the price and how well it prints...it’s a game changer for printers looking to ditch the plastisol base. Just taking that factor out of your print changes the hand completely.
Man this sure would be nice to have on their product data sheet. Just sent out 300+ shirts with Rio top colors. I cured past 320 degrees. Hope they don’t come back.. that’ll be a real kick in the nuts.
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Just got back from the Origins class that Magna sponsored. They did clarify that killer base is not to be used with low cure plastisol inks. I m using wilflex Rio was having a problems with my colors cracking off and showing the white base after a few washes.
Also, on any kind of blend or shirt that needs stretch...add 20-50% Aquaflex v2
Other than that, for the price and how well it prints...it’s a game changer for printers looking to ditch the plastisol base. Just taking that factor out of your print changes the hand completely.
Damn, was real excited to use this but we are all in with rio colors. What other brands are people using with this and getting good results?
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Just got back from the Origins class that Magna sponsored. They did clarify that killer base is not to be used with low cure plastisol inks. I m using wilflex Rio was having a problems with my colors cracking off and showing the white base after a few washes.
Also, on any kind of blend or shirt that needs stretch...add 20-50% Aquaflex v2
Other than that, for the price and how well it prints...it’s a game changer for printers looking to ditch the plastisol base. Just taking that factor out of your print changes the hand completely.
Damn, was real excited to use this but we are all in with rio colors. What other brands are people using with this and getting good results?
Same. I’m currently (and have been since before I tried Killer) using green galaxy comet white. I liked the Killer better but not enough to change plastisol systems.
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Maybe I should change my wording.
It was more suggested that dryer temp and time needed to be paid attention to heavily when combining killer base with low cure plastisols. Low cure plastisol systems like Rio can bubble if too much heat is applied. Trying to keep the garment in the dryer long enough for the killer base to fully cure but not cross the higher temp threshold to disrupt the cure of the Rio colors probably can be achieved, but with effort.
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Maybe I should change my wording.
It was more suggested that dryer temp and time needed to be paid attention to heavily when combining killer base with low cure plastisols. Low cure plastisol systems like Rio can bubble if too much heat is applied. Trying to keep the garment in the dryer long enough for the killer base to fully cure but not cross the higher temp threshold to disrupt the cure of the Rio colors probably can be achieved, but with effort.
I’ll be doing some testing. Prints looked good and passed an initial wash test.
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Maybe I should change my wording.
It was more suggested that dryer temp and time needed to be paid attention to heavily when combining killer base with low cure plastisols. Low cure plastisol systems like Rio can bubble if too much heat is applied. Trying to keep the garment in the dryer long enough for the killer base to fully cure but not cross the higher temp threshold to disrupt the cure of the Rio colors probably can be achieved, but with effort.
I’ll be doing some testing. Prints looked good and passed an initial wash test.
Please keep us updated. I want to do some testing but hesitate on buying a fiver.
Still trying to get a sample.
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We tried this on a 400 piece flag design yesterday on 2 brands of ladies tri blend shirts. Killer base with Union Bright Red, 280 blue and Quick White top. I didn't put any additives in the ink at all. Wanted to see how it ran straight out of the bucket. Overall it ran good. Overall hand was about the same as with our standard Quick White base with a smoothing screen. My biggest reason for wanting to use it was that its half the price of Quick White.
We have a electric dryer. Initial wash tests turned out good. I will continue doing additional wash tests to see how the print holds up over time. We slowed down the belt and had them in the heat for 1 minute. Slowed us down a little as we were only able to run at 400ph.
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is that union red a low cure plastisol?
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We tried this on a 400 piece flag design yesterday on 2 brands of ladies tri blend shirts. Killer base with Union Bright Red, 280 blue and Quick White top. I didn't put any additives in the ink at all. Wanted to see how it ran straight out of the bucket. Overall it ran good. Overall hand was about the same as with our standard Quick White base with a smoothing screen. My biggest reason for wanting to use it was that its half the price of Quick White.
We have a electric dryer. Initial wash tests turned out good. I will continue doing additional wash tests to see how the print holds up over time. We slowed down the belt and had them in the heat for 1 minute. Slowed us down a little as we were only able to run at 400ph.
I would advise with hsa style inks the waste and evaporation should be a consideration. With quick white whatever isnt used after the job is ran can be re used where as with hsa you have to recycle the old ink into new ink and you will lose some each time this is done. HSA does not go near as far as plastisol goes.... We go through drums of hsa so much faster then we ever did with plastisol so I would just keep that in mind.
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We tried this on a 400 piece flag design yesterday on 2 brands of ladies tri blend shirts. Killer base with Union Bright Red, 280 blue and Quick White top. I didn't put any additives in the ink at all. Wanted to see how it ran straight out of the bucket. Overall it ran good. Overall hand was about the same as with our standard Quick White base with a smoothing screen. My biggest reason for wanting to use it was that its half the price of Quick White.
We have a electric dryer. Initial wash tests turned out good. I will continue doing additional wash tests to see how the print holds up over time. We slowed down the belt and had them in the heat for 1 minute. Slowed us down a little as we were only able to run at 400ph.
I would advise with hsa style inks the waste and evaporation should be a consideration. With quick white whatever isnt used after the job is ran can be re used where as with hsa you have to recycle the old ink into new ink and you will lose some each time this is done. HSA does not go near as far as plastisol goes.... We go through drums of hsa so much faster then we ever did with plastisol so I would just keep that in mind.
Danny just nailed the hidden truth to HSA that is glossed over a lot. Great inks but can result in a lot of waste. We use them. A lot. But at the end of the day / week yeah you scratch your head was the waste really Green???
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We tried this on a 400 piece flag design yesterday on 2 brands of ladies tri blend shirts. Killer base with Union Bright Red, 280 blue and Quick White top. I didn't put any additives in the ink at all. Wanted to see how it ran straight out of the bucket. Overall it ran good. Overall hand was about the same as with our standard Quick White base with a smoothing screen. My biggest reason for wanting to use it was that its half the price of Quick White.
We have a electric dryer. Initial wash tests turned out good. I will continue doing additional wash tests to see how the print holds up over time. We slowed down the belt and had them in the heat for 1 minute. Slowed us down a little as we were only able to run at 400ph.
I would advise with hsa style inks the waste and evaporation should be a consideration. With quick white whatever isnt used after the job is ran can be re used where as with hsa you have to recycle the old ink into new ink and you will lose some each time this is done. HSA does not go near as far as plastisol goes.... We go through drums of hsa so much faster then we ever did with plastisol so I would just keep that in mind.
Danny just nailed the hidden truth to HSA that is glossed over a lot. Great inks but can result in a lot of waste. We use them. A lot. But at the end of the day / week yeah you scratch your head was the waste really Green???
Agreed. I waste a lot of discharge that’s for sure and HSA is a tricky balance of keeping the original ink properties while minimizing waste.
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Thanks guys. Waste is definitely something to keep in mind as we continue with this product.
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OK, I was finally able to use this yesterday. I do have to say, I am sold. As much as I would like to use 100% WB, we just can't here for multiple reasons.
But using this killer base was a really nice touch on this job we ran.
It did print on 100% cotton Bella canvas shirts, but I also threw a few samples on a next level try blend 6010 royal.
These printed great, and the printing of the base, went fairly smooth compared to other HSA I've printed in the past.
*please don't judge me on that dot gain...
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What brand did you use for top colors? I want to try this with rio but some have said low cure inks don’t play well with the killer base.
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We have now ran several drums of the killer base. We use the Wilflex equalizer system and get exact matches as the samples done with quick white. in fact the colors are just a touch brighter.
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What brand did you use for top colors? I want to try this with rio but some have said low cure inks don’t play well with the killer base.
I have done quite a few pieces with Rio and have no wash issues and no complaints from clients about wash issues. The key is to cure the underbase like normal waterbase. Don’t try and use the low cure properties of the Rio inks. I cure around 330-335 for 2 minutes. The only time I had bleed issues was on rayon. No bleed issues in triblends or poly/cotton blends
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Got a gallon in myself to do some testing on this as it sounds great. We do a bunch of prints that get some really heavy underbases due to the print area/designs. Figured this could give us a little softer feel. We use Rio inks mainly. Tested on some triblends, regular cotton, ringspun cotton and some heavier comfort colors. We did a set where we under cured, cured to exact specifications and one set left in the chamber a little longer. So Ive had no luck and all of my wash tests have failed. Cracking on every one of them. Look ok right out of the wash but the slightest stretch of the shirt reveals the cracking. Even some coming off.
Initial prints do look fantastic though. I did not try any tests with the Wilflex Epic Standard colors. We do stock some of those inks besides just Rio. Not sure if that would make a difference or not. For what its worth, we have little to no experience with waterbase. All of our experience has been just testing here and there and very little actual production. So I could be missing something.
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Dryer specs? Gas or Electric? Time in the oven at what temp? Also might not be penetrating the garments enough.
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Just got a sample of the killer base and will be testing later today on some comfort colors that I know are bleeders and a few other blends, smelling this ink right out the can smells kinda like automotive paint. If it's like waterbase then I know it needs to be driven into the fabric which might stop some top cracking, I started out printing waterbase inks many years ago but found plastisol easier to work with and never looked back, how things come back around over the years ;)
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I will probably soon be testing Killer Base. I start my new job tomorrow with a contract shop and PMS matches are a must. My first major project will be solving the problem of PMS shift on white underbase. The owner is considering switching from MX to Rio to help with this.