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screen printing => General Screen Printing => Topic started by: lancasterprinthouse on October 18, 2019, 03:14:20 PM
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I swear I saw a thread on this in the past on here but a search turned up nothing of benefit.
I just bought a load of used MZX frames and now I realize why I never buy used. Anyways, no reason to cry over spilt milk so I’m looking for the fastest and easiest way to clean them up. My thought was to get a Rubbermaid that fits the longest bars, take them all apart and let them soak for a few days in a cleaner or some kind. Question is, what kind or brand? After that I was thinking power washing them might be the fastest way but I’m looking for suggestions.
Anybody ever clean up more than a handful before?
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Check with CCI
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If you find the secret to that, you could clean up.
Pardon the pun.
I tried 3 or 4 different products for glue residue removal along with razor blades and light emory cloth. I had about 25 and finally got them cleaned up to be usable.
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My concern is exposing the threads to harsh chemicals if you take it apart and soak them.
http://www.stretchdevices.com/faq (http://www.stretchdevices.com/faq)
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I swear I saw a thread on this in the past on here but a search turned up nothing of benefit.
I just bought a load of used MZX frames and now I realize why I never buy used. Anyways, no reason to cry over spilt milk so I’m looking for the fastest and easiest way to clean them up. My thought was to get a Rubbermaid that fits the longest bars, take them all apart and let them soak for a few days in a cleaner or some kind. Question is, what kind or brand? After that I was thinking power washing them might be the fastest way but I’m looking for suggestions.
Anybody ever clean up more than a handful before?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
We always clean them once we have to re-stretch them. Right now I have 30 that need re-stretetching. Cleaned them all with spot cleaning fluid plus a quick rinse with the pressure washer. Works like a charm.
Apart from that we are done with Roller Frames, too expensive and we found the perfect static frames, get them stretched by Murakami and we have almost no loss of tension. They are all at around 22-24N even after heavy use for years.
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I swear I saw a thread on this in the past on here but a search turned up nothing of benefit.
I just bought a load of used MZX frames and now I realize why I never buy used. Anyways, no reason to cry over spilt milk so I’m looking for the fastest and easiest way to clean them up. My thought was to get a Rubbermaid that fits the longest bars, take them all apart and let them soak for a few days in a cleaner or some kind. Question is, what kind or brand? After that I was thinking power washing them might be the fastest way but I’m looking for suggestions.
Anybody ever clean up more than a handful before?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
We always clean them once we have to re-stretch them. Right now I have 30 that need re-stretetching. Cleaned them all with spot cleaning fluid plus a quick rinse with the pressure washer. Works like a charm
When I have to remesh my own frames it doesn’t take long to clean them but you should see these frames. They’ll easily take 30-45 minutes per frame. The photos in the ad didn’t look this bad. Might just put them away for a slow day project and buy some new ones. We’re way too busy to spend this kind of time on these right now
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I swear I saw a thread on this in the past on here but a search turned up nothing of benefit.
I just bought a load of used MZX frames and now I realize why I never buy used. Anyways, no reason to cry over spilt milk so I’m looking for the fastest and easiest way to clean them up. My thought was to get a Rubbermaid that fits the longest bars, take them all apart and let them soak for a few days in a cleaner or some kind. Question is, what kind or brand? After that I was thinking power washing them might be the fastest way but I’m looking for suggestions.
Anybody ever clean up more than a handful before?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
We always clean them once we have to re-stretch them. Right now I have 30 that need re-stretetching. Cleaned them all with spot cleaning fluid plus a quick rinse with the pressure washer. Works like a charm
When I have to remesh my own frames it doesn’t take long to clean them but you should see these frames. They’ll easily take 30-45 minutes per frame. The photos in the ad didn’t look this bad. Might just put them away for a slow day project and buy some new ones. We’re way too busy to spend this kind of time on these right now
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I don`t understand how this can happen in the first place. I tell my guys part of cleaning screens is as well the actual frame. I get a minor freak out when I find ink on the frames after they have been cleaned.
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I swear I saw a thread on this in the past on here but a search turned up nothing of benefit.
I just bought a load of used MZX frames and now I realize why I never buy used. Anyways, no reason to cry over spilt milk so I’m looking for the fastest and easiest way to clean them up. My thought was to get a Rubbermaid that fits the longest bars, take them all apart and let them soak for a few days in a cleaner or some kind. Question is, what kind or brand? After that I was thinking power washing them might be the fastest way but I’m looking for suggestions.
Anybody ever clean up more than a handful before?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
We always clean them once we have to re-stretch them. Right now I have 30 that need re-stretetching. Cleaned them all with spot cleaning fluid plus a quick rinse with the pressure washer. Works like a charm
When I have to remesh my own frames it doesn’t take long to clean them but you should see these frames. They’ll easily take 30-45 minutes per frame. The photos in the ad didn’t look this bad. Might just put them away for a slow day project and buy some new ones. We’re way too busy to spend this kind of time on these right now
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I don`t understand how this can happen in the first place. I tell my guys part of cleaning screens is as well the actual frame. I get a minor freak out when I find ink on the frames after they have been cleaned.
Same. I can’t stand frames that are dirty. The way these frames are makes me wonder what this shop looks like. I can’t even handle them without getting dirty or sticky from the tape residue. How you produce quality work with frames like this is beyond me.
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Have you tried acetone?
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Acetone soak will definitely work. Soaking in Goo Gone would probably do the trick as well.
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I'm sorry , I just do not understand why shops deal with those doing everyday work. The labor involved is just flooring to me vs. Statics. I am just venting and am not trying to start a 'why use roller frames debate" more power to ya'll
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I'm sorry , I just do not understand why shops deal with those doing everyday work. The labor involved is just flooring to me vs. Statics. I am just venting and am not trying to start a 'why use roller frames debate" more power to ya'll
Rick, some folks just seem to have accepted the extra time with the higher tension and hopefully higher quality prints, and made the roller decision.
That said, many of us old timers remember seeing (and/or producing) damn good stuff with static frames, even those made of wood, when they were the norm!
It's just one more variable that many want to control to the max.
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It's not necessarily higher tension, but adjustable and controllable tension to some. There are some very anal people out there.
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we treat our roller frames as statics - dont really retention (although we should)
but the advantage to us is that we dont have to wait for a shipment of frames to arrive. we throw a panel on, tension, shelf, retention, shelf and degrease, coat etc.
we get panels from shur loc, we can choose our mesh count and thread diameter... its slightly cheaper per panel but evens out when labor is factored in.
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It's not necessarily higher tension, but adjustable and controllable tension to some. There are some very anal people out there.
*raises hand*
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I'm sorry , I just do not understand why shops deal with those doing everyday work. The labor involved is just flooring to me vs. Statics. I am just venting and am not trying to start a 'why use roller frames debate" more power to ya'll
I can sign up to this. Buying Roller Frames was one of our biggest mistakes. There is too much looking after involved. We have around 30 Roller Frames standing around that need new mesh while the other 70 would need to be re-tensioned. Don`t have time for either. Besides the new static frames we have sourced are top notch. If we need new mesh on our static frames I call Murakami and they come by on a Wednesday and pick them up and drop them off again a week later. And of course they come back looking like new as they always clean them.
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You can buy roughly 3 good statics for the cost of a single roller frame. So in my opinion, it's better to overbuy good statics and shelve them when not needed. Reclaim and dehaze them and leave them on a shelf and degrease to knock the lint off when you need to use them.
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Which frames to use is very much a individual thing.
From what I have read some people get great service like Rockers in the last post.
Some have to pay for shipping in both directions.
I can have screens stretched locally, expensive and bad, so I stretch myself.
If you agree with the theory that you need high tension for high end work there is nothing like rollers but I've only worked with statics. (I don't do Anderson type printing).
When I prepare in advance I store them in big plastic bags so when I need them they have no dust.
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I'm not sure I agree, but having Newmans I probably am a little biased, lol
While it's true that retensionables may come close to the price of 3 statics, re-usability has to be considered.
A brand new Newman (23x31) is around $83.50, but can be found (used) a whole lot cheaper (likely requiring cleanup).
2 yards of 230 mesh ($14.57/yd - probably less in quantity) is $29.14. I can get 6 panels out of the 2 yards. Allowing a loss of 1 (ripping), I still can get 5 panels from the 2 yards at a cost of $5.83 each. Coarser mesh is cheaper and finer mesh is more, but the same is true for statics so everything here is on 230 mesh and 23x31 frames.
A 230 static aluminum (23x31) local is $27.45.
To summarize:
3 aluminum (230 mesh) statics using the 3:1 ratio should run about $82.35.
1 brand new Newman ($83.50) + 2 yards of 230 mesh (29.14) should run about $112.64
So far, so good. A savings of $30.20. I can use 3 mesh panels from the 2 yards to accommodate 3 screens to print jobs. The next 3 statics purchased ($82.35) comes to a total of $164.70 for 6 screens. But the "cost" to me for the next 3 screens is.....$0....since I still should have 3 panels left over from the 2 yards purchased (assuming I didn't rip one).
I know this doesn't address accumulating frames in inventory, but there has to be some storage limit. 100? 200? 300? 500?
Possible variables. Perhaps local static aluminum frames are even cheaper and having a bunch of statics does give you more frames in total inventory, but re-usability "AND" the ability to change mesh out if a job needs a different one RIGHT NOW and the static for that mesh isn't in the inventory.
Retensionables are not for everyone. It takes a knack to stretch and not rip them, but using tips from Mooseman, I rarely ever rip one now.
When my old statics ripped, having them remeshed was not a safe option to do myself (glue dust, etc) and the savings to send out was not that great either leaving me accumulating stacks of empty aluminum frames to recycle or use for welding jobs.
I just want to emphasize the re-usability and flexibility more than anything. Once I own retensionables, all I have to purchase for screens for the rest of my business life, is mesh (each panel costing me only $5.83 or less) and I never have to pull a static out of my inventory when it rips or goes limp.
My 2c.
Oh, on Maxie's mention of high tension, I'm perfectly happy with 24 to 28 Newtons, which is definitely NOT on the high end.
My DIY stretching table:
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Have you tried acetone?
My go-to solvent for dirty & sticky things (frames, presses, etc) is XYLENE (also known as XYLOL).
It's not as volatile as Acetone, so it won't evaporate as fast as Acetone. You have time to scrub it in.
It's cheap... about $20/gal at Home Depot
*** It does require really good ventilation, gloves, safety eyewear and a respirator. Dirty rags require proper storage and disposal.
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Which frames to use is very much a individual thing.
From what I have read some people get great service like Rockers in the last post.
Some have to pay for shipping in both directions.
I can have screens stretched locally, expensive and bad, so I stretch myself.
If you agree with the theory that you need high tension for high end work there is nothing like rollers but I've only worked with statics. (I don't do Anderson type printing).
When I prepare in advance I store them in big plastic bags so when I need them they have no dust.
I don`t buy into this high tension is needed for great work. We can do great work with S-mesh which cannot be tensioned to very high levels anyway. We started with Roller Frames and rollermesh, cranked up tension to 50-60Nm but still nothing beats prints done with an S-mesh if you ask me.
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To me, using Roller Frames is an “old school” style.
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You also have labor costs in cutting and restretching mesh...I don't with sending them out. I am also very lucky to have Spot Color in my backyard. I can courier boxes to them for about $.75-$1 a frame in the quantities I have redone...then I get free shipping or delivery back. I am essentially outsourcing the labor on these. Less time for us to deal with it...more time printing.
I think the gap has considerably closed between statics and retens. Statics aren't a hard thing to have a ton of...they are lightweight and can be shelved above other equipment. I think we maybe have 300-400 frames back there. At any given time there are 40-80 ready to be sent off for stretching. I am going to build a 20' long shelf above our exposure unit to hold screens that are ready for coating so I will have them there and good to go when needed. I estimate I can hold 140-150 screens there at a time.
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I don't understand how you printers don't see the benefits of using roller frame?
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Good thing this thread is about cleaning frames ;D
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I don't understand how you printers don't see the benefits of using roller frame?
Maybe its about ROI not all shops need that level of process, I have seen some wicked prints come of really old scary looking screens. How about Serj, produces the most technical prints seen here is he on rollers? i am not certain bit i think he is on static frames
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I don't understand how you printers don't see the benefits of using roller frame?
because they aren't as superior to statics as they once were. A lot of shops have switched, ones that turn out some very high end work.
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I don't understand how you printers don't see the benefits of using roller frame?
because they aren't as superior to statics as they once were. A lot of shops have switched, ones that turn out some very high end work.
agreed. too much maintenance for too little gains. S mesh statics, Spot Color. done. ...move on to other problems.
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To me, using Roller Frames is an “old school” style.
What's old is new again?????
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Good thing this thread is about cleaning frames ;D
LOL that train ran off the rails about one post in , cleaning roller frames are a pain in the booty and I never could get the mesh right, but that's all on me. Now about high tension mesh, I found one good thing about that it makes printing WOW easier and use maybe a little less ink, but the bad part is they pop faster, so 18 to 25 n are fine for the type of printing we do here.
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To me, using Roller Frames is an “old school” style.
What's old is new again?????
All claims below are for my location (central Europe) and my shop.
Current meshes keep tension on static frames when properly stretched.
Current meshes with thin thread are not fragile when handled responsibly.
Current inks are not as thick and in general easier to print.
Screen stretching services are better, faster, cheaper than ever before. And available within 1-2 days of rather cheap shipping.
Same goes for aluminum frames.
If I started out today, knowing what I know, my shop would use statics only. As my shop is close to 30 years old, it’s a result of legacy, gradual development, evolution of processes and technology, and as such not optimal. That’s why we use old school roller frames ( some 200+ M3 type) and static frames (also some 200+), which we buy from same supplier.
Each shop has it’s own philosophy, ways of running business and definition of success.
This is, again, valid for my shop.
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We pay 44$ for 2 yards of S mesh from river city... ( 225S) I get 6 screens ( 23x31) out of that. Mesh costs 7.33$
If I pay a low wage employee to do them they can do them in 15 min each. so 4$ labour per. ( this almost triples with two employees, but well leave that there)
Buy them for 20$ used. ( I've been using them for 5 years, so yes I own the frames already. But once they are paid for that cost is out of the question, they dont go bad under normal use)
$12.33 per frame,( Once taped ) REGARDLESS of the added advantages of using roller frames... Spot colour is at 35$ before shipping.
I don't see how this is even a discussion.... Even with the fact that S mesh sags almost immediately and re tensioning takes barely any time...
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We pay 44$ for 2 yards of S mesh from river city... ( 225S) I get 6 screens ( 23x31) out of that. Mesh costs 7.33$
If I pay a low wage employee to do them they can do them in 15 min each. so 4$ labour per. ( this almost triples with two employees, but well leave that there)
Buy them for 20$ used. ( I've been using them for 5 years, so yes I own the frames already. But once they are paid for that cost is out of the question, they dont go bad under normal use)
$12.33 per frame,( Once taped ) REGARDLESS of the added advantages of using roller frames... Spot colour is at 35$ before shipping.
I don't see how this is even a discussion.... Even with the fact that S mesh sags almost immediately and re tensioning takes barely any time...
One comment and one question:
You compared price of new static vs. used NRF. I would guess used static is $5-$8?
And question: can your $15/h employee do something, that you charge to customer? Restretching is something you cannot.
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Found an awesome product for removing everything but the paint on frames, your press everything. Rapid Remover. It's intended for the vinyl vehicle wrapping to not hurt the finish on cars. Works awesome. My Roq tech told me about it. Also, for mesh panels, we tried the SAATI Hidro, and standard SAATI mesh in the sewn Nortech panels. You can order them direct from SAATI. Same on press outcome as we got from S Mesh, but a lot less expensive, and seem to be more durable. Check them out, you'd be super shocked at the price!!
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My employees are paid to produce products, sure. They are also paid to maintain our space, clean up, clean around equipment, some even do regular maintenance on our machines... I see value in maintaining our most important aspect of quality prints...
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Found an awesome product for removing everything but the paint on frames, your press everything. Rapid Remover. It's intended for the vinyl vehicle wrapping to not hurt the finish on cars. Works awesome. My Roq tech told me about it. Also, for mesh panels, we tried the SAATI Hidro, and standard SAATI mesh in the sewn Nortech panels. You can order them direct from SAATI. Same on press outcome as we got from S Mesh, but a lot less expensive, and seem to be more durable. Check them out, you'd be super shocked at the price!!
Thanks! I’ll check this out.
I wonder if threads on a train conductors forum ever derail?
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Have you tried acetone?
My go-to solvent for dirty & sticky things (frames, presses, etc) is XYLENE (also known as XYLOL).
It's not as volatile as Acetone, so it won't evaporate as fast as Acetone. You have time to scrub it in.
It's cheap... about $20/gal at Home Depot
*** It does require really good ventilation, gloves, safety eyewear and a respirator. Dirty rags require proper storage and disposal.
I’m going to look into this as well. This is cheap enough that I could soak the bars before trying to clean it off.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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It does require really good ventilation, gloves, safety eyewear and a respirator. Dirty rags require proper storage and disposal.
LOL..I'm sorry you lost me at respirator
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Found an awesome product for removing everything but the paint on frames, your press everything. Rapid Remover. It's intended for the vinyl vehicle wrapping to not hurt the finish on cars. Works awesome. My Roq tech told me about it. Also, for mesh panels, we tried the SAATI Hidro, and standard SAATI mesh in the sewn Nortech panels. You can order them direct from SAATI. Same on press outcome as we got from S Mesh, but a lot less expensive, and seem to be more durable. Check them out, you'd be super shocked at the price!!
I agree 100% about the rapid remover. That stuff is great for removing residue off of frames. We use it for vinyl adhesive remover as well. It doesn't smell near as harsh as others I've tried. Also, if you use a magic eraser to go along with that it really does the trick.
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I swear I saw a thread on this in the past on here but a search turned up nothing of benefit.
I just bought a load of used MZX frames and now I realize why I never buy used. Anyways, no reason to cry over spilt milk so I’m looking for the fastest and easiest way to clean them up. My thought was to get a Rubbermaid that fits the longest bars, take them all apart and let them soak for a few days in a cleaner or some kind. Question is, what kind or brand? After that I was thinking power washing them might be the fastest way but I’m looking for suggestions.
Anybody ever clean up more than a handful before?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
We always clean them once we have to re-stretch them. Right now I have 30 that need re-stretetching. Cleaned them all with spot cleaning fluid plus a quick rinse with the pressure washer. Works like a charm
When I have to remesh my own frames it doesn’t take long to clean them but you should see these frames. They’ll easily take 30-45 minutes per frame. The photos in the ad didn’t look this bad. Might just put them away for a slow day project and buy some new ones. We’re way too busy to spend this kind of time on these right now
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I don`t understand how this can happen in the first place. I tell my guys part of cleaning screens is as well the actual frame. I get a minor freak out when I find ink on the frames after they have been cleaned.
Same. I can’t stand frames that are dirty. The way these frames are makes me wonder what this shop looks like. I can’t even handle them without getting dirty or sticky from the tape residue. How you produce quality work with frames like this is beyond me.
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Josh, sorry you aren't happy with the frames you got. You wanted the, black bolt only frames, which in our emails I told you weren't cleaned up, but were only, FIFTEEN BUCKS EACH. If you wanted new frames, well, like I did when I bought them a few years ago, pony up the dough for new frames. When you are running a shop that is literally processing hundreds of screens a week,who has time to , "buff their frames"? If you have that time, then you need more print work. This does kind of agrivate me, since I'v been a member of this forum since it's first day. I've also worked and built relationships with a LOT of members here over the past 15 years that we've been running our shop, so to make some of the jabs you have made over, 30 screen frames, is sort of sad. You got a deal and a half on 23x31 MZX Ultralight frames at 15 bucks each. You even stated in emails, you didn't expect them to be perfect, but now I'm reading jabs about our shop, and what not. Let me paste in some of our emails. You may ask why I'd even take the time to do it, but reputation and relationships being stepped on, over 30 frames, bro, I'll send you your money back, it's not that big of a deal, really!
On Oct 14, 2019, at 2:57 PM, mike@evolutionaryscreenprinting.net wrote:
Hey Josh, so in between set ups I’ve been grabbing frames. So it looks like I’ve pulled about 75 of the mzx all round tube ultra lights, that have the black bolt/raw aluminum finished rollers.Keep in mind these are coming or have come out of production and I haven’t had time to really scrub and sticky remove them. I’ll at least make sure there isn’t a bunch of wet ink all over them, The frames are all great, but like I said, coming out of production without the ultrascrub I just want you to know they aren’t brand new, hence the big discounted price because as we know, time is money. Let me know if you are still good.
Thanks Josh!
Mike
Your reply
From: Josh Seacat <josh@lancasterprinthouse.com>
Sent: Monday, October 14, 2019 3:19 PM
To: mike@evolutionaryscreenprinting.net
Subject: Re: Frames
Hey Mike, sounds good. Totally understand. As long as they are mechanically sound. I.e., not dented, stripped bolts, warped bars, etc.
I think I will take 30 right now but if it’s OK with you I may be back for some more after I check out the first 30.
What’s your PayPal or method of payment? Once you have them boxed up let me know how many shipping labels you need.
Thanks!
Josh Seacat
Lancaster Print House
717-571-0080
So like I mentioned above, at 15 bucks a frame, that there is really nothing but tape glue on them, maybe a little big of ink from anything yanked right out of a pile pre-reclaim. I only wish we had enough time in a day to make screen frames look brand new all the time, but processing the amount of jobs we are doing now, it's all we can do to keep the cycle going. And the big point is, you insisted on only having, "black bolt", which honestly should have been more than 15 each and agreed to accept screens that weren't perfectly clean.
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I swear I saw a thread on this in the past on here but a search turned up nothing of benefit.
I just bought a load of used MZX frames and now I realize why I never buy used. Anyways, no reason to cry over spilt milk so I’m looking for the fastest and easiest way to clean them up. My thought was to get a Rubbermaid that fits the longest bars, take them all apart and let them soak for a few days in a cleaner or some kind. Question is, what kind or brand? After that I was thinking power washing them might be the fastest way but I’m looking for suggestions.
Anybody ever clean up more than a handful before?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
We always clean them once we have to re-stretch them. Right now I have 30 that need re-stretetching. Cleaned them all with spot cleaning fluid plus a quick rinse with the pressure washer. Works like a charm
When I have to remesh my own frames it doesn’t take long to clean them but you should see these frames. They’ll easily take 30-45 minutes per frame. The photos in the ad didn’t look this bad. Might just put them away for a slow day project and buy some new ones. We’re way too busy to spend this kind of time on these right now
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I don`t understand how this can happen in the first place. I tell my guys part of cleaning screens is as well the actual frame. I get a minor freak out when I find ink on the frames after they have been cleaned.
Same. I can’t stand frames that are dirty. The way these frames are makes me wonder what this shop looks like. I can’t even handle them without getting dirty or sticky from the tape residue. How you produce quality work with frames like this is beyond me.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Josh, sorry you aren't happy with the frames you got. You wanted the, black bolt only frames, which in our emails I told you weren't cleaned up, but were only, FIFTEEN BUCKS EACH. If you wanted new frames, well, like I did when I bought them a few years ago, pony up the dough for new frames. When you are running a shop that is literally processing hundreds of screens a week,who has time to , "buff their frames"? If you have that time, then you need more print work. This does kind of agrivate me, since I'v been a member of this forum since it's first day. I've also worked and built relationships with a LOT of members here over the past 15 years that we've been running our shop, so to make some of the jabs you have made over, 30 screen frames, is sort of sad. You got a deal and a half on 23x31 MZX Ultralight frames at 15 bucks each. You even stated in emails, you didn't expect them to be perfect, but now I'm reading jabs about our shop, and what not. Let me paste in some of our emails. You may ask why I'd even take the time to do it, but reputation and relationships being stepped on, over 30 frames, bro, I'll send you your money back, it's not that big of a deal, really!
On Oct 14, 2019, at 2:57 PM, mike@evolutionaryscreenprinting.net wrote:
Hey Josh, so in between set ups I’ve been grabbing frames. So it looks like I’ve pulled about 75 of the mzx all round tube ultra lights, that have the black bolt/raw aluminum finished rollers.Keep in mind these are coming or have come out of production and I haven’t had time to really scrub and sticky remove them. I’ll at least make sure there isn’t a bunch of wet ink all over them, The frames are all great, but like I said, coming out of production without the ultrascrub I just want you to know they aren’t brand new, hence the big discounted price because as we know, time is money. Let me know if you are still good.
Thanks Josh!
Mike
Your reply
From: Josh Seacat <josh@lancasterprinthouse.com>
Sent: Monday, October 14, 2019 3:19 PM
To: mike@evolutionaryscreenprinting.net
Subject: Re: Frames
Hey Mike, sounds good. Totally understand. As long as they are mechanically sound. I.e., not dented, stripped bolts, warped bars, etc.
I think I will take 30 right now but if it’s OK with you I may be back for some more after I check out the first 30.
What’s your PayPal or method of payment? Once you have them boxed up let me know how many shipping labels you need.
Thanks!
Josh Seacat
Lancaster Print House
717-571-0080
So like I mentioned above, at 15 bucks a frame, that there is really nothing but tape glue on them, maybe a little big of ink from anything yanked right out of a pile pre-reclaim. I only wish we had enough time in a day to make screen frames look brand new all the time, but processing the amount of jobs we are doing now, it's all we can do to keep the cycle going. And the big point is, you insisted on only having, "black bolt", which honestly should have been more than 15 each and agreed to accept screens that weren't perfectly clean.
Bottom line, photos were misleading. Very misleading. I see black bolts in the photos and those frames look good. The frames I have I can’t even use as is. I don’t have the time to buff them and had the photos not been misleading I wouldn’t have bought them in the first place. The price shouldn’t matter, the ad was misleading. If you sold these for $15 the ones in the photo should be worth double that.
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Dude, send them back, I'll send you your money back. YOU wanted 'black bolt only frames, AND ACCEPTED the fact that they mostly getting pulled out of production. Seriously, missleading? See now you AGAIN, are putting my integrity in question, over 450 bucks, 30 screen frames, which you clearly knew weren't coming to you spotless. Seriously, I'll send you ups tags, as soon as they land back here, I'll send you your money back. here you go, he's asking 30 a frame, for frames in way worse looking and are NOT ultralight frames. People are literally negotiating a higher amount than even the 15 you paid for frames that just have to be cleaned. http://www.digitsmith.com/attachments/42986d1466693188-200-23x31-newman-roller-frames-mzx-photo-1.jpg (http://www.digitsmith.com/attachments/42986d1466693188-200-23x31-newman-roller-frames-mzx-photo-1.jpg)
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We don`t buff our frames but certainly make sure there is no ink on the actual frame once they have been cleaned. Kind of goes hand in hand with cleaning the mesh, at least in our shop.
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I swear I saw a thread on this in the past on here but a search turned up nothing of benefit.
I just bought a load of used MZX frames and now I realize why I never buy used. Anyways, no reason to cry over spilt milk so I’m looking for the fastest and easiest way to clean them up. My thought was to get a Rubbermaid that fits the longest bars, take them all apart and let them soak for a few days in a cleaner or some kind. Question is, what kind or brand? After that I was thinking power washing them might be the fastest way but I’m looking for suggestions.
Anybody ever clean up more than a handful before?
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We always clean them once we have to re-stretch them. Right now I have 30 that need re-stretetching. Cleaned them all with spot cleaning fluid plus a quick rinse with the pressure washer. Works like a charm
When I have to remesh my own frames it doesn’t take long to clean them but you should see these frames. They’ll easily take 30-45 minutes per frame. The photos in the ad didn’t look this bad. Might just put them away for a slow day project and buy some new ones. We’re way too busy to spend this kind of time on these right now
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I don`t understand how this can happen in the first place. I tell my guys part of cleaning screens is as well the actual frame. I get a minor freak out when I find ink on the frames after they have been cleaned.
Same. I can’t stand frames that are dirty. The way these frames are makes me wonder what this shop looks like. I can’t even handle them without getting dirty or sticky from the tape residue. How you produce quality work with frames like this is beyond me.
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Josh, sorry you aren't happy with the frames you got. You wanted the, black bolt only frames, which in our emails I told you weren't cleaned up, but were only, FIFTEEN BUCKS EACH. If you wanted new frames, well, like I did when I bought them a few years ago, pony up the dough for new frames. When you are running a shop that is literally processing hundreds of screens a week,who has time to , "buff their frames"? If you have that time, then you need more print work. This does kind of agrivate me, since I'v been a member of this forum since it's first day. I've also worked and built relationships with a LOT of members here over the past 15 years that we've been running our shop, so to make some of the jabs you have made over, 30 screen frames, is sort of sad. You got a deal and a half on 23x31 MZX Ultralight frames at 15 bucks each. You even stated in emails, you didn't expect them to be perfect, but now I'm reading jabs about our shop, and what not. Let me paste in some of our emails. You may ask why I'd even take the time to do it, but reputation and relationships being stepped on, over 30 frames, bro, I'll send you your money back, it's not that big of a deal, really!
On Oct 14, 2019, at 2:57 PM, mike@evolutionaryscreenprinting.net wrote:
Hey Josh, so in between set ups I’ve been grabbing frames. So it looks like I’ve pulled about 75 of the mzx all round tube ultra lights, that have the black bolt/raw aluminum finished rollers.Keep in mind these are coming or have come out of production and I haven’t had time to really scrub and sticky remove them. I’ll at least make sure there isn’t a bunch of wet ink all over them, The frames are all great, but like I said, coming out of production without the ultrascrub I just want you to know they aren’t brand new, hence the big discounted price because as we know, time is money. Let me know if you are still good.
Thanks Josh!
Mike
Your reply
From: Josh Seacat <josh@lancasterprinthouse.com>
Sent: Monday, October 14, 2019 3:19 PM
To: mike@evolutionaryscreenprinting.net
Subject: Re: Frames
Hey Mike, sounds good. Totally understand. As long as they are mechanically sound. I.e., not dented, stripped bolts, warped bars, etc.
I think I will take 30 right now but if it’s OK with you I may be back for some more after I check out the first 30.
What’s your PayPal or method of payment? Once you have them boxed up let me know how many shipping labels you need.
Thanks!
Josh Seacat
Lancaster Print House
717-571-0080
So like I mentioned above, at 15 bucks a frame, that there is really nothing but tape glue on them, maybe a little big of ink from anything yanked right out of a pile pre-reclaim. I only wish we had enough time in a day to make screen frames look brand new all the time, but processing the amount of jobs we are doing now, it's all we can do to keep the cycle going. And the big point is, you insisted on only having, "black bolt", which honestly should have been more than 15 each and agreed to accept screens that weren't perfectly clean.
In all fairness, Josh did not mention once where he bought those frames. That was until you outed yourself.
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We don`t buff our frames but certainly make sure there is no ink on the actual frame once they have been cleaned. Kind of goes hand in hand with cleaning the mesh, at least in our shop.
I don’t know anyone that buffs frames but we do the same. Our frames in production are still able to handled and are free from gunk and ink.
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Man, I just hate that this came up on a public forum.
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Take it easy, it was not mentioned anywhere where the frames were from.
Lets keep the TSB a friendly place.
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Take it easy, it was not mentioned anywhere where the frames were from.
Lets keep the TSB a friendly place.
While this is true, you don't make open jabs knowing that this person is on the same forum with you, unless that is what you intended to do in the first place, dissatisfactions can be done in private and worked out between the parties, and yes it can go both ways. Sometimes we all run off at the mouth before thinking and now we type before thinking, but these guys are professionals and I'm sure will work it all out 8)
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Take it easy, it was not mentioned anywhere where the frames were from.
Lets keep the TSB a friendly place.
While this is true, you don't make open jabs knowing that this person is on the same forum with you, unless that is what you intended to do in the first place, dissatisfactions can be done in private and worked out between the parties, and yes it can go both ways. Sometimes we all run off at the mouth before thinking and now we type before thinking, but these guys are professionals and I'm sure will work it all out 8)
Exactly Darryl, and in all fairness to me, mutual friend or friends have already been told, maybe off forum, but still. and the Buff the frames comment I made, bottom line is he knew the frames had glue from tape on them, I told him that, as you can easily see. You want to know what our shop looks like, thats cool, you are welcome to come here any time. Just ask Dirkdiggler, Antony Sharples, Dave Filip, aka Bimmrider, Doug from Shirt shack and more, Rick Davis, Rich Hoffman, Ryan Moor. I can name them on and on. We aren't the biggest shop by any stretch, but with 3 autos, running most weeks 6 days a week. Our focus is on our final print, customer deadlines and customer satisfaction. Not babysitting the metal part of a frame. When a stack, like the 30 you got are ready for re-stretch, our screen guy cleans them down to the metal and then we would go from there. You wanted all black bolts, I clearly said they needed cleaning, you said ok, now this. A jab is a jab, and yeah I take it personal. 15 years, only a couple vacations taken only 1 in 15 years to actually call a vacation the rest industry meetings. So yes, my wife and I are dedicated to our business our employees, and our customers. We don't work for someone else, this is our life. If the jab wasn't made, my comments would have never appeared. So in all fairness like others are mentioning. What's fair is fair. I even offer to take them back. It's no big deal, 30 screens these days is what we go through in a couple hours here, so I can always put them back in the mix, or other people that have been messaging me outside of this forum would take them in a heart beat and would have actually paid what they are worth, which I wasn't even asking for knowing they would need cleaning.
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Take it easy, it was not mentioned anywhere where the frames were from.
Lets keep the TSB a friendly place.
While this is true, you don't make open jabs knowing that this person is on the same forum with you, unless that is what you intended to do in the first place, dissatisfactions can be done in private and worked out between the parties, and yes it can go both ways. Sometimes we all run off at the mouth before thinking and now we type before thinking, but these guys are professionals and I'm sure will work it all out 8)
Exactly Darryl, and in all fairness to me, mutual friend or friends have already been told, maybe off forum, but still. and the Buff the frames comment I made, bottom line is he knew the frames had glue from tape on them, I told him that, as you can easily see. You want to know what our shop looks like, thats cool, you are welcome to come here any time. Just ask Dirkdiggler, Antony Sharples, Dave Filip, aka Bimmrider, Doug from Shirt shack and more, Rick Davis, Rich Hoffman, Ryan Moor. I can name them on and on. We aren't the biggest shop by any stretch, but with 3 autos, running most weeks 6 days a week. Our focus is on our final print, customer deadlines and customer satisfaction. Not babysitting the metal part of a frame. When a stack, like the 30 you got are ready for re-stretch, our screen guy cleans them down to the metal and then we would go from there. You wanted all black bolts, I clearly said they needed cleaning, you said ok, now this. A jab is a jab, and yeah I take it personal. 15 years, only a couple vacations taken only 1 in 15 years to actually call a vacation the rest industry meetings. So yes, my wife and I are dedicated to our business our employees, and our customers. We don't work for someone else, this is our life. If the jab wasn't made, my comments would have never appeared. So in all fairness like others are mentioning. What's fair is fair. I even offer to take them back. It's no big deal, 30 screens these days is what we go through in a couple hours here, so I can always put them back in the mix, or other people that have been messaging me outside of this forum would take them in a heart beat and would have actually paid what they are worth, which I wasn't even asking for knowing they would need cleaning.
Congrats. You made it. $450 is chump change to you. Well it’s $450 to me. 30 frames is a day for you. Great. Don’t care. It’s half a week for me. You want to act like that because it’s a small amount to YOU that it shouldn’t matter. These are trash and any way you shake it I’m out $150 in shipping. I’ve already accepted the loss that’s why the title of this thread is “cleaning roller frames” and not “screenprintguy sold me junk frames that can’t go into production without damaging my exposure unit blanket”. I’m a small shop and these were a waste of money and now will ultimately be a waste of time. What you posted and what I received are totally different and a little heads up that they aren’t anywhere near what you posted would have been courteous. All used frames are not in new condition, obviously, and my frames in production look like what you posted so I was assuming what I was getting would be able to be meshed and thrown into the mix. Your comments about not being clean just made me believe that they were like the ad, which aren’t perfect but easily able to be throw into production. Instead these will easily take an hour a piece to get to the point where they won’t rip my exposure blanket.
I didn’t start this thread to bash the sale but we’re here now so..
PS - they did come with ink all over them. Not that it matters because I can’t use them as is anyways but since you want to split hairs
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I didn’t start this thread to bash the sale but we’re here now so..
Nonetheless, why don't one of you just walk away before it gets any moe contentious.
I'd hate to have to ditch the whole thread, yet also do not want to have to go and pick through the posts to try to sort what stays and what goes.
Let's accept the fact that, for whatever reason, the frames are funkier than you had expected, and you asked for and received good advice on cleaning them.
As you yourself mentioned, this has come up before here, so the situation is not uncommon, and the information is valuable.
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I didn’t start this thread to bash the sale but we’re here now so..
Nonetheless, why don't one of you just walk away before it gets any moe contentious.
I'd hate to have to ditch the whole thread, yet also do not want to have to go and pick through the posts to try to sort what stays and what goes.
Let's accept the fact that, for whatever reason, the frames are funkier than you had expected, and you asked for and received good advice on cleaning them.
As you yourself mentioned, this has come up before here, so the situation is not uncommon, and the information is valuable.
Already accepted it. That’s why I started the thread in the first place. I didn’t turn this thread I to what it is but I’m not one to roll over
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I'm going to make a hard turn here, and hopefully not derail the thread. I'm also offering an "Old timer's" perspective.
I am 100% Newman Roller frames. I have been for almost my entire printing career. We have somewhere around 650-700 frames. All of them are M3. I won't introduce anything else. I want standards. No guessing, No mixing. (And if anyone is selling M3 frames, I'm always looking for more)
I have (or will have again soon) a person who's job it is to take care of the screens Post Press. Ideally they will bring the screens off the production floor to the reclaim area. They will untape the screens, check for flat, and check tension. If the screen needs to be retensioned, this is when it happens. If the tension is good (to my standards) the screens heads to reclaim. If the tension is low, and there are no nicks or holes to keep us from adjusting tension, it is done here. I am a huge believer in consistent tension within mesh counts. I firmly believe that relative same mesh tensions affects set upi in a positive way. This is just my system. If you know Lon Winters, ask him what he thinks of the way I maintain my screens. He's been here and seen it.
As for "wasting time" stretching....it's not a waste of time here. It's part of the system. The person mentioned above also stretches new screens. We have a little loop that we do. Get a clean frame on the stretching table and put mesh in. Take it up to tension. While that screen is resting at tension, we clean the frame that will be stretched next. Usually takes 5-10 minutes tops. When that frame is ready, we check tension of the screen on the table. It has lost some tension by now, so we take it back up. Tighten it and pull it off. The new screen goes on the table, mesh inserted and inital tension reached. We tape the screen that just came off, and clean the next frame. So it's a nice loop. I know most here will still say it's a big waste of time. Ehhh, I don't really care. Oh yeah, but the way, my shop is FAR from clean.
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I am a huge believer in consistent tension within mesh counts. I firmly believe that relative same mesh tensions affects set upi in a positive way.
This is why I use them. When we switched from static our setup times went down. We’re a small shop and every minute counts.
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And I'm not trying to change anyone's opinions. I've never won any awards. Just showing my perspective. And how I do things in MY shop
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nice spin, again, I'll gladly send you allllllllllllll of the money back that you say you lost. If you really think they are trash, which is hilarious, they have glue from tape, newman roller frame tape, that lots and lots of shops use, maybe a little ink, not gloppy ink, just like in my email explanation. Every dime means a-lot to us, we've lost everything we've ever had to keep our shop alive during the last recession, don't drive fancy cars, our shop is our life, so calling that integrity into question, yeah, I'm going to get a little heated about it. Send them back, you'll get all more money back, and then you can take that money and see how many frames that are like new you'll get. They are almost 70 each new, maybe be able to deal a dealer down to 55 each new if you buy a few hundred at once. I don't nor would I ever take advantage of anyone, the people here that really know my wife and I here, know that, so you can spin all ya want. I'm out. I wish you all the best.
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SCREENPRINTGUY IS ONE OF THE GREATEST AND HONEST MEN WALKING THIS EARTH! Most here know him personally! He would have bent over backwards to help anyone and NEVER F*%K anybody! This is a fact! ROLLING WITH YOU MIKE TILL THE DAY I DIE!
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nice spin, again, I'll gladly send you allllllllllllll of the money back that you say you lost. If you really think they are trash, which is hilarious, they have glue from tape, newman roller frame tape, that lots and lots of shops use, maybe a little ink, not gloppy ink, just like in my email explanation. Every dime means a-lot to us, we've lost everything we've ever had to keep our shop alive during the last recession, don't drive fancy cars, our shop is our life, so calling that integrity into question, yeah, I'm going to get a little heated about it. Send them back, you'll get all more money back, and then you can take that money and see how many frames that are like new you'll get. They are almost 70 each new, maybe be able to deal a dealer down to 55 each new if you buy a few hundred at once. I don't nor would I ever take advantage of anyone, the people here that really know my wife and I here, know that, so you can spin all ya want. I'm out. I wish you all the best.
I’m taking you up on the offer. Can’t do anything with these. I’ll need 3 labels.
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nice spin, again, I'll gladly send you allllllllllllll of the money back that you say you lost. If you really think they are trash, which is hilarious, they have glue from tape, newman roller frame tape, that lots and lots of shops use, maybe a little ink, not gloppy ink, just like in my email explanation. Every dime means a-lot to us, we've lost everything we've ever had to keep our shop alive during the last recession, don't drive fancy cars, our shop is our life, so calling that integrity into question, yeah, I'm going to get a little heated about it. Send them back, you'll get all more money back, and then you can take that money and see how many frames that are like new you'll get. They are almost 70 each new, maybe be able to deal a dealer down to 55 each new if you buy a few hundred at once. I don't nor would I ever take advantage of anyone, the people here that really know my wife and I here, know that, so you can spin all ya want. I'm out. I wish you all the best.
I’m taking you up on the offer. Can’t do anything with these. I’ll need 3 labels.
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I'll take them. Ship them to me. Serious. I've got a a ton of Newman's but they're old M3's. I had to have Newman make me the holders as the table I got had the holders for the new MZX's. The M3's are beastly. I'm also a skip and a hop from Dave so if he's interested might swap them out and then talk to him on the M3's. That way you're happy, they're off your hands, and Mike doesn't have to turn them around again.
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I definitely agree that consistent tension helps setups. Other than control of the tension, I think the Shurloc frames are the happy medium between s-thread statics and rollers. Those panels stretch to a pretty consistent tension without the added maintenance of the rollers. I was fine with the s-thread statics but since that mesh is so sensitive and prone to nicks/holes, I like being able to pop in a fresh panel right away as appose to waiting on new static frames to get re stretched. I'm a small shop as well and the majority of my jobs are run on 150 and 180 mesh. It's nice to have less space taken up by screens and just having a stock of high mesh panels that I can throw on when needed and then pop back off when I don't. Everyones situation and circumstances are different but this is what works for me. Not taking sides here, I totally see the pros/cons to all the frame options. I don't think there is a right or wrong frame to use, as long as it fits in with your shops workflow and produces the quality you're happy with.
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I definitely agree that consistent tension helps setups. Other than control of the tension, I think the Shurloc frames are the happy medium between s-thread statics and rollers. Those panels stretch to a pretty consistent tension without the added maintenance of the rollers. I was fine with the s-thread statics but since that mesh is so sensitive and prone to nicks/holes, I like being able to pop in a fresh panel right away as appose to waiting on new static frames to get re stretched. I'm a small shop as well and the majority of my jobs are run on 150 and 180 mesh. It's nice to have less space taken up by screens and just having a stock of high mesh panels that I can throw on when needed and then pop back off when I don't. Everyones situation and circumstances are different but this is what works for me. Not taking sides here, I totally see the pros/cons to all the frame options. I don't think there is a right or wrong frame to use, as long as it fits in with your shops workflow and produces the quality you're happy with.
I can really see the positives in those. Especially the quick change ability for mesh sizes. Can do it with Newmans but is not as easy and quick for sure. Can you post any info on the approximate tensions you are getting?
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I definitely agree that consistent tension helps setups. Other than control of the tension, I think the Shurloc frames are the happy medium between s-thread statics and rollers. Those panels stretch to a pretty consistent tension without the added maintenance of the rollers. I was fine with the s-thread statics but since that mesh is so sensitive and prone to nicks/holes, I like being able to pop in a fresh panel right away as appose to waiting on new static frames to get re stretched. I'm a small shop as well and the majority of my jobs are run on 150 and 180 mesh. It's nice to have less space taken up by screens and just having a stock of high mesh panels that I can throw on when needed and then pop back off when I don't. Everyones situation and circumstances are different but this is what works for me. Not taking sides here, I totally see the pros/cons to all the frame options. I don't think there is a right or wrong frame to use, as long as it fits in with your shops workflow and produces the quality you're happy with.
I can really see the positives in those. Especially the quick change ability for mesh sizes. Can do it with Newmans but is not as easy and quick for sure. Can you post any info on the approximate tensions you are getting?
Absolutely. My 150-S threads that have been printed on and reclaimed multiple times (don't have an exact count) are settling between 18-20 newtons. I know that isn't optimal for a lot of people and they want their 150s at 25ish newtons, but I've had no issues with them being in a range anywhere from 17-25 newtons.
200-S mesh is holding strong at around 26 newtons. I have 180 panels coming in next week so I'm not sure what those will be at but I assume similar to the 200-S. I just started adding these frames in little by little so my stock and mesh selection is still growing. I'm testing out some endurance panels as well.
These were about the same tensions I was getting on my statics, although the higher mesh counts seem to be tighter and retain their tension with the shurloc panels. They do sell retension bars that I haven't messed with yet. I might test them when I start to fall under the recommended tension levels.
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And Brett, If you have M3s you are looking to sell, let me know. I never seem to have enough
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And Brett, If you have M3s you are looking to sell, let me know. I never seem to have enough
Brett is a good dude Dave, you'd love to meet him. His story of how he's grown is pretty amazing. We got to hang a lot when we were at Greg's for the last Joe Clarke conference. That for sure will have a special memory and meaning there.
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Locked, why is this thread locked?
Because it just deteriorated into a fight beteeen two members, going on and on and on, offering no redeeming value except to those particular participants.
Any questions about the care and feeding of, or just rants or raves about roller frames will be better served as a new thread.