TSB
screen printing => General Screen Printing => Topic started by: Cole on November 06, 2019, 09:09:57 AM
-
Hey all,
I'm a one man shop that does around $200k gross per year. Only mentioning that so you can get an idea of the volume that I do. As a one man shop, I am the only one operating the press, catching the shirts (when the basket gets too full), looking for pinholes, checking for clogs, making sure there is enough ink in the screens, etc. I'm trying to stick to water based and discharge inks for all of my jobs, but I find that I'm literally running around the press making sure everything is going fine during jobs.
I'm in California where there is barely any humidity and my press is right next to an open roll up door due to limited space (1100 sqft). Once the ink is in the screens, I'm racing to finish the job before the inks starts to gum up. I try to not overshoot how much ink I need so that I don't waste too much at the end, which doesn't help with the drying issue. I only have 6 heads on my Sabre and one flash and I'm finding that I don't have enough heads to properly flash and cool down high color count jobs. From what I know, 100% water based shops have 10-14 color presses so that they can have multiple base plates, multiple cool downs, multiple flashes.
So with all that in mind, my question is: Am I setting myself up for failure by trying to keep things 100% water based in my shop?
With only 6 heads, would it make more sense for me to find a WOW plastisol system to use over a discharge base or Magna Killer Base?
-
you might not be setting yourself up for a failure as the waterbased prints might be what sets your business apart from the competition. It would make sense to try some plastisol and see how it goes. My guess is you can produce 20% due to not having to baby the inks and screens. It will also make it easier to pick up the phone, do deliveries, go check on the bucket . . .
pierre
-
I have pretty much the same situation as you except I'm a plastisol shop. This year on pace to do about $280k gross. I think 300k is the best I'll be able to do as a 1 man shop. If your clients aren't too particular on what ink you use and you want to stay a one man operation, I would say plastisol will definitely ease some headaches, but that's just me. I know a lot of people prefer the benefits of water based inks and plastisol is more of a burden for those type of shops. I think it's possible with the right work flow but there is so much to do already being just 1 person.
-
you might not be setting yourself up for a failure as the waterbased prints might be what sets your business apart from the competition. It would make sense to try some plastisol and see how it goes. My guess is you can produce 20% due to not having to baby the inks and screens. It will also make it easier to pick up the phone, do deliveries, go check on the bucket . . .
pierre
I like to think that it sets me apart from some of my competition, but to be honest, I'm not sure that my clients even care about what ink I use. I do a lot of work for bands and most of the time, they are more excited to see their band name on a shirt than they are about it being discharge ink. I use water based mostly for my own pleasure (and sometimes pain). It's the type of ink that I prefer, but like I said, the customer doesn't really notice. If I were to start incorporating plastisol for certain jobs, very few would notice. With hoodie season coming up, I'll need to figure out a new game plan. Hoodies are always a pain for me because every customer wants me to print on Gildan Heavy Blend, which isn't the most optimal hoodie for water based. I feel like if I used plastisol and a roller frame on those, I'd be happy with the results.
-
I have pretty much the same situation as you except I'm a plastisol shop. This year on pace to do about $280k gross. I think 300k is the best I'll be able to do as a 1 man shop. If your clients aren't too particular on what ink you use and you want to stay a one man operation, I would say plastisol will definitely ease some headaches, but that's just me. I know a lot of people prefer the benefits of water based inks and plastisol is more of a burden for those type of shops. I think it's possible with the right work flow but there is so much to do already being just 1 person.
I know you feel my pain then. It's tough to find the time to really dial in prints, especially with water based where you are fighting the clock. When you have a stack of screens to reclaim, 12 jobs in the queue, and only two weeks to turn it all around, you can only dedicate so much time to each job. I find that with water based, I have to do my best to set everything up for success from the start, set it up on press, and hope for the best. Once the ink is in the screens and everything is registered, it's unlikely that I'll have the time to make any major adjustments to the art or print order. I would assume that you are like me where you are flying by the seat of your pants most days. If I start bringing plastisol into the mix, it might help me slow down a little hopefully. I won't feel quite as rushed to get the job printed and torn down.
Congrats on hitting 280k! That's no easy task for one person.
-
I have pretty much the same situation as you except I'm a plastisol shop. This year on pace to do about $280k gross. I think 300k is the best I'll be able to do as a 1 man shop. If your clients aren't too particular on what ink you use and you want to stay a one man operation, I would say plastisol will definitely ease some headaches, but that's just me. I know a lot of people prefer the benefits of water based inks and plastisol is more of a burden for those type of shops. I think it's possible with the right work flow but there is so much to do already being just 1 person.
I know you feel my pain then. It's tough to find the time to really dial in prints, especially with water based where you are fighting the clock. When you have a stack of screens to reclaim, 12 jobs in the queue, and only two weeks to turn it all around, you can only dedicate so much time to each job. I find that with water based, I have to do my best to set everything up for success from the start, set it up on press, and hope for the best. Once the ink is in the screens and everything is registered, it's unlikely that I'll have the time to make any major adjustments to the art or print order. I would assume that you are like me where you are flying by the seat of your pants most days. If I start bringing plastisol into the mix, it might help me slow down a little hopefully. I won't feel quite as rushed to get the job printed and torn down.
Congrats on hitting 280k! That's no easy task for one person.
if you have more work than you can handle or can relatively easily get more work, maybe think about getting some help. Maybe one of the band members would not mind helping here and there or couple of days a week for some extra income. This only works if you can get more sales though (or you are sick and tired of working long hours).
pierre
-
I have pretty much the same situation as you except I'm a plastisol shop. This year on pace to do about $280k gross. I think 300k is the best I'll be able to do as a 1 man shop. If your clients aren't too particular on what ink you use and you want to stay a one man operation, I would say plastisol will definitely ease some headaches, but that's just me. I know a lot of people prefer the benefits of water based inks and plastisol is more of a burden for those type of shops. I think it's possible with the right work flow but there is so much to do already being just 1 person.
I know you feel my pain then. It's tough to find the time to really dial in prints, especially with water based where you are fighting the clock. When you have a stack of screens to reclaim, 12 jobs in the queue, and only two weeks to turn it all around, you can only dedicate so much time to each job. I find that with water based, I have to do my best to set everything up for success from the start, set it up on press, and hope for the best. Once the ink is in the screens and everything is registered, it's unlikely that I'll have the time to make any major adjustments to the art or print order. I would assume that you are like me where you are flying by the seat of your pants most days. If I start bringing plastisol into the mix, it might help me slow down a little hopefully. I won't feel quite as rushed to get the job printed and torn down.
Congrats on hitting 280k! That's no easy task for one person.
if you have more work than you can handle or can relatively easily get more work, maybe think about getting some help. Maybe one of the band members would not mind helping here and there or couple of days a week for some extra income. This only works if you can get more sales though (or you are sick and tired of working long hours).
pierre
I do have someone that will come and help out when they have time, but even when they are here, it only saves me a few hours of work. I mostly have them reclaiming screens, counting in shirts, boxing completed products. The dilemma that I'm in is this: If I were to find someone with experience, they'd most likely want to work full time, which I just can't afford. If I find someone with no experience, they can do simple tasks, but they aren't helpful enough to the point where it allows me to take on a whole lot more work. I'm also making it really difficult on myself because I'm really picky about who comes to work with me. Since it's someone who will be working directly next to me for 8 hours a day, it's gotta be someone that I can click with. I guess flying solo for so long has made me hesitant to bring just anybody in.
-
Yeah I totally get it. I'm pretty introverted and the idea of managing one other person seems daunting (managing myself is difficult enough). Screens are my biggest bottleneck right now. I figured if I can find someone to reclaim a ton of screens 2-3 days a week I can break through that 300k threshold or I just need to figure out a better system.
-
i was a one man shop for a while. I love discharge, but it was not efficient for me running solo. Everything had to be prepped and cleaned up right before and after printing, so i couldnt batch together those parts of the process well across multiple jobs. It seriously limits your offerings, and you end up running into far more issues on press and after compared to plastisol. There are a dozen other complications and hurdles that arent there with plastisol. My two cents...
-
i was a one man shop for a while. I love discharge, but it was not efficient for me running solo. Everything had to be prepped and cleaned up right before and after printing, so i couldnt batch together those parts of the process well across multiple jobs. It seriously limits your offerings, and you end up running into far more issues on press and after compared to plastisol. There are a dozen other complications and hurdles that arent there with plastisol. My two cents...
I appreciate your insight! It's nice to hear from someone who has been though some of the same challenges. I've been really hesitant to do more plastisol, but it's sounding like it might be necessary at this point. You're right, I'm limiting myself pretty heavily by using discharge for all of my dark garments. I always dread when someone asks for a 50/50 blend or a Comfort Colors shirt. If I add plastisol in to the mix, it will be a tool that I can use when I need it.
-
I tried locking down waterbase in our shop and in the end 3 things became very clear
1. You need a prime person to understand the ink and on press process completely.
2. Your business and staff really have to commit to a process, IMO there is a far higher learning curve vs. plastisol and far more spoilage of ink and garments.
3. My clients really could give a crap about the hand of the ink and most certainly do not want to pay a premium.
From my perspective all the really knowledgeable/successful WB printers here treat it like science, you really have to want to be a Great WB printer to run a shop as efficiently as plastisol shop.
-
3. My clients really could give a crap about the hand of the ink and most certainly do not want to pay a premium.
This is the main reason we are not all in with WB/DC inks here, not that we can't do it, our customers just want ink on a shirt at a good price. I use show samples of the different prints and the hand of the ink and very few care plus some of these inks take a different type of shirt and our custy's are all over the place with tees.
-
Have you tried One Stroke Watercolor Series plastisol?
-
Have you tried One Stroke Watercolor Series plastisol?
I've never heard of that series from One Stroke. I looked it up, but there isn't much info. Is it an RFU system? Or pigments and bases?
-
It's supposed to be a plastisol that acts like a water base. Give them a call.
-
Have you tried One Stroke Watercolor Series plastisol?
I've never heard of that series from One Stroke. I looked it up, but there isn't much info. Is it an RFU system? Or pigments and bases?
One Stroke Inks are great, but only available from the manufacturer. This guy appears to be a based-down plastisol. In fact, it appears to be so based-down, that it includes the bonus; "Watercolor inks are perfect for a vintage look." https://www.onestrokeinks.com/shopexd.asp?id=321 (https://www.onestrokeinks.com/shopexd.asp?id=321)
-
It presents itself with more challenges... But Im Sooooooo happy im not a 1 man shop anymore. Eff that...
Like someone long ago once said...." i want to own a business, not own a job"
LOL
-
It presents itself with more challenges... But Im Sooooooo happy im not a 1 man shop anymore. Eff that...
Like someone long ago once said...." i want to own a business, not own a job"
LOL
I know who your talking about LOL guy was a trip, I've not spoke with him in a awhile, but One stroke water color inks are plastisol inks that act like real water-base without the drying in the screen problems, great for light colors without a white under-base I bought a kit last year, did not want to change all my inks but did use up what I had and the hand was really nice.
-
I started my business only printing water base. Didn’t do much multi color work.
I now print mainly plastisol and don’t understand why anyone would want to go anywhere near water based inks unless the customer demanded it and paid extra for it.
There are so many advantages to plastisol. We often set up multiple color jobs at the end of the day and run them the next morning, staff can take breaks, go for lunch.
If you use thin screens and a roller you get a nice thin, flat image with plastisol.
As far as the environment is concerned with plastisol we put very little ink into the sewerage system, we card most of it off the screen before cleaning.
With water base we had a lot more ink on the screens we washed. I’m not sure what they are using now but the base I used had some nasty chemicals in it. Formaldehyde, White spirit, etc.
So if you are printing for a hobby or charging a lot more or have a niche market stick with water base, if you want to make money and have a life go with plastisol.
-
I'm just spit balling here because I don't know enough about Discharge to know if this is a solution for your situation, but perhaps try switching over to hybrid prints (DC under base with soft hand plastisol over print). You'll still be in a rush to print the jobs I'm sure, since that one screen would have DC, but at least it's less time mixing other DC colors and over all less problems that could arise, maybe?
-
I tried the OSI Watercolor white against a couple other whites that had been based back. My conclusion was that they had a really good mix... but not good enough to warrant buying into the system. And that conclusion was solidified by the fact that it cures @ 320. Since most of our soft hand ink goes on heat-senstive high poly shirts, lower cure inks have been essential. But good plastisol + fashion bases/reducers + low cure additive/inks has been a good combo for us.
I'm also a "1+" shop. (I'm the only one FT, run everything but the books, with some family help when I need it.) I considered WB & DC carefully, but chose & stuck to plastisol b/c of the convenience factor. And I haven't seemed to lose customers over it. There are a lot of times when it's helpful to be able to walk away from a job, and start up again later - phone calls, lunch, just enough time to set up before quitting but not printing, etc. Plus other conveniences like mixing custom colors for repeat customers once then storing them; cleaning up/reclaim in batches; less concern over stencil durability, shorter cure times, etc.
You might consider getting a starter pack of something like Wilflex Rio + a fashion base, and giving it a shot. You might need a couple of chemicals, like ink remover, too. But it shouldn't be a huge investment to try it.
-
I'm just spit balling here because I don't know enough about Discharge to know if this is a solution for your situation, but perhaps try switching over to hybrid prints (DC under base with soft hand plastisol over print). You'll still be in a rush to print the jobs I'm sure, since that one screen would have DC, but at least it's less time mixing other DC colors and over all less problems that could arise, maybe?
I have definitely considered that option as well. I'm actually going to be trying that on my next sim process job to see if it makes anything less stressful. My biggest concern is being able to print wet on wet with minimal build up. I assume that if I am doing a discharge underbase through a 225s screen, the top colors should sit nicely on top of it since there is still a lot of fiber to grab on to. It's definitely easier to manage one water based screen than six.
I tried the OSI Watercolor white against a couple other whites that had been based back. My conclusion was that they had a really good mix... but not good enough to warrant buying into the system. And that conclusion was solidified by the fact that it cures @ 320. Since most of our soft hand ink goes on heat-senstive high poly shirts, lower cure inks have been essential. But good plastisol + fashion bases/reducers + low cure additive/inks has been a good combo for us.
I'm also a "1+" shop. (I'm the only one FT, run everything but the books, with some family help when I need it.) I considered WB & DC carefully, but chose & stuck to plastisol b/c of the convenience factor. And I haven't seemed to lose customers over it. There are a lot of times when it's helpful to be able to walk away from a job, and start up again later - phone calls, lunch, just enough time to set up before quitting but not printing, etc. Plus other conveniences like mixing custom colors for repeat customers once then storing them; cleaning up/reclaim in batches; less concern over stencil durability, shorter cure times, etc.
You might consider getting a starter pack of something like Wilflex Rio + a fashion base, and giving it a shot. You might need a couple of chemicals, like ink remover, too. But it shouldn't be a huge investment to try it.
When I've run plastisol in the past, I've done that same thing where I set it all up the night before so I can start printing first thing in the morning. I always hate coming in and having to mix inks and register screens. Makes me feel like my day is starting off too slow. The best days are when I have a few hundred prints done before 10:00am.
Wilflex is definitely being considered. Either that or the C3 system from Rutland. I heard from a few printers that they use Rutland's Chino base and the end result feels like HSA, which is what I'm looking for.
I have a rep coming to my shop on the 20th to demo the new Aquarius HSA inks from Polyone. That's my last resort before I buy into a plastisol system. I'm holding on to water based for dear life! lol Supposedly, the Aquarius inks can be printed wet on wet and don't dry as quickly on press as other inks. I'm sure every water based manufacturer gives that same speech, but all that talk will be put to the test on the 20th and we'll see what happens.
-
Definitely interested to hear your opinion from a smaller shop with real world issues regarding your testing on the 20th.
-
Definitely interested to hear your opinion from a smaller shop with real world issues regarding your testing on the 20th.
I will definitely be reporting back!
-
Wilflex is definitely being considered. Either that or the C3 system from Rutland. I heard from a few printers that they use Rutland's Chino base and the end result feels like HSA, which is what I'm looking for.
I mentioned Wilflex Rio because cure temp is 260-280, and we've found lower temps to be a huge benefit. For awhile, we had some terrible experiences with certain styles (Next Level poly blends + others) discoloring as temps as low as 340. Low cure additive & low cure inks have been a lifesaver. BUT I have not used RIO, I just like the specs & know it gets good reports from other users here.
Rio is an ink-to-ink system, comparable to Rutlands M3, which we currently use. I like the M3 matches, but cure temp is 320. C3 is a pigment based system, which also cures at 320. While I haven't tried it, I brought in the Wilflex PC sample kit, which is also pigment concentrates, and did NOT like how touchy it was for mixing small batches - very hard to get accurate matches when you don't need much.
As others have said, you might do well to try hybrid prints using soft hand plastisols over a DC base. I decided to forego DC/WB entirely to keep things streamlined, but that combo has always had an appeal to me. Could eliminate some of your challenges while retaining a great feel. (Still no stopping a run for lunch, though!)
-
Wilflex is definitely being considered. Either that or the C3 system from Rutland. I heard from a few printers that they use Rutland's Chino base and the end result feels like HSA, which is what I'm looking for.
I mentioned Wilflex Rio because cure temp is 260-280, and we've found lower temps to be a huge benefit. For awhile, we had some terrible experiences with certain styles (Next Level poly blends + others) discoloring as temps as low as 340. Low cure additive & low cure inks have been a lifesaver. BUT I have not used RIO, I just like the specs & know it gets good reports from other users here.
Rio is an ink-to-ink system, comparable to Rutlands M3, which we currently use. I like the M3 matches, but cure temp is 320. C3 is a pigment based system, which also cures at 320. While I haven't tried it, I brought in the Wilflex PC sample kit, which is also pigment concentrates, and did NOT like how touchy it was for mixing small batches - very hard to get accurate matches when you don't need much.
As others have said, you might do well to try hybrid prints using soft hand plastisols over a DC base. I decided to forego DC/WB entirely to keep things streamlined, but that combo has always had an appeal to me. Could eliminate some of your challenges while retaining a great feel. (Still no stopping a run for lunch, though!)
I've heard that same thing about the chino base. I think that's something that I might try out of this aquarius ink doesn't work out.
Thanks for the insight on the Wilflex PC system. I very rarely need to mix to an exact pantone, so color accuracy isn't always crucial for me (until it is lol)
Since you are doing all plastisol, maybe you can offer some advice. I tried doing a simple three color print the other day (american flag) and had a horrible time with it. I printed the base through a 150s mesh, then printed the red stripes and blue of the flag wet on wet (single stroke) with 230s mesh screens. Ink would build up on subsequent screens pretty much immediately and it was really hard to get nice, crisp lines. Do you have recommendations on what mesh counts are normal for spot color plastisol work? I have an especially difficult time with large blocky areas.
-
Since you are doing all plastisol, maybe you can offer some advice. I tried doing a simple three color print the other day (american flag) and had a horrible time with it. I printed the base through a 150s mesh, then printed the red stripes and blue of the flag wet on wet (single stroke) with 230s mesh screens. Ink would build up on subsequent screens pretty much immediately and it was really hard to get nice, crisp lines. Do you have recommendations on what mesh counts are normal for spot color plastisol work? I have an especially difficult time with large blocky areas.
With deeper colors you can run halftone bases and still get a great look. I would run a 50% base at 45-55lpi under your blue. You could easily run a 70% base under your red. You have to play around to see what works for you with halftone percentages and lpi. Along with the halftone base you can add a small gutter between colors if you are still not getting clean lines. If you are print flash printing your base I would lower the halftone percentages a bit as you will gain and your halftones will close in a bunch after your second hit. Not that this solves all issues all the time but it’s another tool to use in some instances.