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screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: ebscreen on January 04, 2012, 04:31:02 PM
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Interesting note, got a call Monday from a company that purchased a new E-Type from
Hirsch. Machine was banged up in transit, but still operable. Tech set it up, damn thing
wouldn't register. Hirsch sent a replacement. Tech set it up, wouldn't register. MHM sends
a tech over from Austria to fix it. Still won't register. I'm assuming center shaft issue or someone is
overlooking something obvious or asdf threw some sand in the mix when in Austria.
All the while Hirsch is dragging ass to help.
Shop owners worst nightmare, press won't register. Only guy that can('t) fix it flies from
Austria. The fella asked my feelings about it and I told him that if I wasn't technically savvy,
and if I didn't plan on having two machines, I wouldn't buy an MHM. You sacrifice support
and parts availability for a beautifully operating and incredibly fast machine. Guess which
one is more important when your press is down? 1200 pieces/hr and 5 minute setups are useless
when the machine won't work right.
Just some thoughts.
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well, I have not heard anything about this and it is very surprising. My thinking is that they can keep doing what they are doing until the press is up and running. How long has this been going on?
As far as the down time and parts, our experience has been just the opposite. I screwed up some parts twice and had the replacements in no time. Also no problems getting somebody on the phone to walk me through any issues. We only had one instance where the part failed on it's own and the tech spent and hour on the phoen with me troubleshooting it (and the press was out of warranty at that point). Once we confirmed the bad sensor (which was what he said in the beginning) the replacement was here the next day and up and running that afternoon. So that's one break down in three years. Now I will give you that Rich will call you in the middle of the night and bend over backwards to help. His level of service is beyond anything I have seen before, but as far as support, I really don't see any issues with the MHM you are bringing up. But . . . I am a sample size of one, somebody else's experiences might be different.
pierre
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Let me be clear, I'm not trying to dig on Hirsch/MHM (well maybe Hirsch) that would be like pooping in my own backyard.
But what I am saying is that this is unfortunately the reality for this guy, and a few others I have heard of, and that's
an absolute nightmare. I don't know what's going on, but I believe Screened Gear had a registration issue with his press
as well?
What I'm saying is that if you buy a new press you expect it to work and if it doesn't you expect the company that sold it
to you to take care of it and if they try and fail and then give up and pass blame to the manufacturer (reasonably so, I suppose)
and the manufacturer tries and fails to make it right well that just plain sucks and does not give me any confidence in any of the product
supply chain involved with the brand. And that's my brand damnit.
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I have heard similar things in the past but it seems like it's becoming less and less. I think it's getting better than it was 2-3 years ago. I still believe their product to be one of the best though but I do feel they have a ways to go in this area. I wish all service could be half as good as M&R, even my brand of choice, but for some reason nobody really comes close.
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I believe Screened Gear had a registration issue with his press as well?
It’s a small world. I have talked to this guy on the phone. Really nice guy just got in a nightmare of a situation. The first press he got was dropped in shipping, you can’t do anything about that. Then the second would not register. I think 2 boards were off consistently. That should be the registration blocks. When I talked to him he was having Wolfgang out to fix that. I never heard that it wasn't able to be fixed. I have to say it is frustrating when you drop money on something and then find out something is wrong with it. You lose confidence in it and get scared it will never register. This was how I felt when I had the issue with my e-type. Then everything was fixed and it took me awhile to trust that it was going to register jobs. Well my press is fixed and is dead on. When I talked to this guy it sounded like Hirsch/MHM/SCH are all doing everything they can to fix the situation.
Now I want to clear up a few things. My press was a used press (no warrantee). The guy that owned the press before me moved the registration blocks trying it fix bad registration. The registration blocks are set at the factory and are good for the life of the machine if they are not moved. My press had a bad registration pin. It would move just a hair causing bad registration on all the board inconsistently. Rodney from Hirsch figured it out right way when we was setting the press up. I have to say that Hirsch really helped me out of a bad situation with my press. Rodney and Gavin both went way above what I expected to make sure my press was done right. I am only one situation and I am sure every manufacture has good and bad stories.
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I was only mentioning your situation in the technical context/similarities, not the support side.
You don't hear of many new machines that have registration problems.
From what he told me on the phone, Wolfgang could not fix the problem, and he was at the point
of telling them to take everything away and go with a different company, or have them send out
another press.
Folks I have an MHM too, I'm not bashing, just relaying. Jeesh, this ain't Ford vs Chevy.
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I think its a obvious trade off. When I was considering my purchase it was obvious to me that none of them could provide the same level of service and support as M&R.
So while it might be cool to save 45 seconds on your set up, it sure does suck when you have to wait days or weeks on a guy to fly from out of the country to fix your press, or a part to ride a boat, or a press that doesn't do as its advertised and so on. Let's also not forget the lost production time when you buy the thing to start with. Buying a press that takes 12 weeks or like some of the new stuff that people have waited many months for or even a year for (Not naming names, you know who you are though), you have lost at times easily the cost of the machine in waiting for it to show up in lost production time.
I don't understand how some arrive at their choice....
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Oh, one other thing. I don't believe the "registration blocks good for a lifetime" thing at all.
On the S-Types (and I think the E's?) the registration blocks are also used to index the pallets.
that right there is significant force. Second, other than a rare sample of Unobtanium, I don't think
there is a material hard enough to withstand a registration pin inserting and withdrawing several
thousand times a day, forever.
Luckily, once you get past the gut wrenching fear and technical hurdles, registering a press
is not that difficult. Tedious yes, but not past most competent folks abilities.
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Oh, one other thing. I don't believe the "registration blocks good for a lifetime" thing at all.
On the S-Types (and I think the E's?) the registration blocks are also used to index the pallets.
that right there is significant force. Second, other than a rare sample of Unobtanium, I don't think
there is a material hard enough to withstand a registration pin inserting and withdrawing several
thousand times a day, forever.
Luckily, once you get past the gut wrenching fear and technical hurdles, registering a press
is not that difficult. Tedious yes, but not past most competent folks abilities.
I am not a MHM expert but I would like to explain a few things that you pointed out from my point of view.
On the e-type the registration blocks are not used in the rotating of the table. The movement of the table is done at the bottom of the press. There are positioning blocks at the bottom that a pin moves into (it makes a cool air sound) then the table is moved to the next position by a motorized arm (also a cool sound). This is when the registration pin locks into the registration block on the upper part of the press by the table. The only damage that can be done to the registration block or pin is when the pin moves into the registration block. There is no side to side force on these parts so very little chance of damage.
You can't reregister an e-type press (maybe all MHM presses) by yourself. I have seen it done and even if you could get the blocks reset you need a tech to reset the press to use the new position of the blocks. If you don't the press would run very rough. The bottom part that moves the table will set the table in position for the pin to drop into the registration block. If you move the blocks and not reset the press the pin would not line up and bang the registration block. The tech fine tunes the press for a long time after the press is reregistered.
I hope I got this all correct.
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So while it might be cool to save 45 seconds on your set up, it sure does suck when you have to wait days or weeks on a guy to fly from out of the country to fix your press, or a part to ride a boat, or a press that doesn't do as its advertised and so on. Let's also not forget the lost production time when you buy the thing to start with. Buying a press that takes 12 weeks or like some of the new stuff that people have waited many months for or even a year for (Not naming names, you know who you are though), you have lost at times easily the cost of the machine in waiting for it to show up in lost production time.
I don't understand how some arrive at their choice....
I am going to strongly disagree with you on this one. This is the first time that I heard of press being down and needing a tech from Austria to get it up and running. And we still don't know what is going on, it could be another shipping company snafu.
Parts are available in US and come in next day if needed. The only way you are going to get them faster is if you live by the manufacturer and can drive and pick up the part yourself.
As far as not doing what is advertised, you might have MHM confused with another brand! What exactly are you talking about here?
There is a waiting period for a lot of stuff out there. MHM presses are in stock and can be delivered pretty quickly unless something has to be custom made. I will give you that if it has to be shipped from Austria it will take longer to get here, but for the most part press purchases are not an impulse buy and are delivered when needed. What do you know about ppl waiting? I'd like to know. I am planning on another press soon and based on my experiences there is no doubt what I am getting, but again, I am a sample of one and would like to know what somebody else had issues with.
There might not be much hard evidence out there, but ppl I talked to, even if they were not running MHM's, agreed that it is the most reliable press on the market. That translates into less down time than anybody else and if you add the shorter setup times it does produce more per dollar than the competition. I will absolutely agree that in a case of some catastrophic failure it might take longer to get it back up, but those are so rare that I have not heard of one ever. All of the issues we have heard of before this one are caused by the operators rather than the press/manufacturer. The customer with the press that was dropped is the first ever I heard that it was MHM's fault. This is not to say that their product is perfect, as nobody's is, but as far as reliability they beat anything else on the market. Your personal choice then becomes, do you want a press that will break more often and the support is going to be faster or something that will break less and there is a short delay in getting the support.
pierre
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Pierre thanks for cleaning up the garbage, but I think in the process something happened to the Custom ink swatch thread it is throwing up an internal 500 error.
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I'd love to know who exactly has the most reliable press on the market. Just from having a small finger on the pulse I'd have to say it would be M&R and from my personal experience the RPM is pretty hardy. I know we only have 2.5 years and 500K impressions to go off of but 10 minutes of down time in that time period says a little bit. I think the few issues I've heard about MHM were from people who have it out for them. At this point, knowing the MHM better than I do a TAS, Falcon or a few obscure press makers, they are in my top 3. Nothing against the E, but I think where MHM shines is the S and 4000 models. I'd still take an RPM over the E type despite the recent shakeup but I do have a certain affinity to the MHM machines and do understand fully the love that those shop owners have for their MHM's. I have recently seen an E-type up close and personal and it was a solid machine.
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I'd love to know who exactly has the most reliable press on the market. Just from having a small finger on the pulse I'd have to say it would be M&R and from my personal experience the RPM is pretty hardy. I know we only have 2.5 years and 500K impressions to go off of but 10 minutes of down time in that time period says a little bit. I think the few issues I've heard about MHM were from people who have it out for them. At this point, knowing the MHM better than I do a TAS, Falcon or a few obscure press makers, they are in my top 3. Nothing against the E, but I think where MHM shines is the S and 4000 models. I'd still take an RPM over the E type despite the recent shakeup but I do have a certain affinity to the MHM machines and do understand fully the love that those shop owners have for their MHM's. I have recently seen an E-type up close and personal and it was a solid machine.
I don't even know if it would be possible to quantify the reliability, thus my statement before. My opinion comes from ppl that have run MHM's before and are running M&R presses now and the other way around. Also to be honest, it is quite possible that they went into older machines from newer MHMs, but everybody I talked to that ran MHMs said they were the most reliable press they used. My experience seems to back this up as the only down time in three years was what ever was needed to troubleshoot and replace a sensor. We've had to reboot the press several times which might amount to 20 additional minutes.
Now I want to be perfectly clear here, this is not a knock on M&R on any other press out there! The issue I have, and please somebody correct me if I am wrong, is that MHM is being portrayed as an unstable platform with bad service which could not be further from the truth.
pierre
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I am going to strongly disagree with you on this one. This is the first time that I heard of press being down and needing a tech from Austria to get it up and running.
Once could be enough to scare me off, I don't have that type of time.....or patience.
Parts are available in US and come in next day if needed. The only way you are going to get them faster is if you live by the manufacturer and can drive and pick up the part yourself.
I can think of parts that I bet are not sitting on US Soil for many overseas manufactures. I have heard of people clipping a press with a fork lift, thus needing a print arm. You think MHM has a spare one for you on US soil for your press? I bet M&R does. Take that for what it's worth. Is it likely you'd need a print arm? No, but I think it illustrates the point I am making. Plus who doesn't like to buy from american companies when they can. I sure do when its possible.
As far as not doing what is advertised, you might have MHM confused with another brand! What exactly are you talking about here?
My post wasn't really directed at MHM, more a generalization of the drama some have to go through with overseas press suppliers. This post is a example of that. No need to read into it, just a observation. MHM has always been a fine manufacture. I never said any differently.
There is a waiting period for a lot of stuff out there. MHM presses are in stock and can be delivered pretty quickly unless something has to be custom made. I will give you that if it has to be shipped from Austria it will take longer to get here, but for the most part press purchases are not an impulse buy and are delivered when needed. What do you know about ppl waiting? I'd like to know. I am planning on another press soon and based on my experiences there is no doubt what I am getting, but again, I am a sample of one and would like to know what somebody else had issues with.
Again my post was a generalization of overseas press suppliers. Seems many of them are 8-12 weeks at best, a year or more, or never at worst. I think that in itself is enough to make me stay away. I am a small timer and I printed enough in the time some have waited for their press that I could have paid for mine in cash in that time frame. So it's food for thought. MHM I am sure is on the up and up though and presses are actually delivered when ordered and roughly on time.
There might not be much hard evidence out there, but ppl I talked to, even if they were not running MHM's, agreed that it is the most reliable press on the market. That translates into less down time than anybody else and if you add the shorter setup times it does produce more per dollar than the competition. I will absolutely agree that in a case of some catastrophic failure it might take longer to get it back up, but those are so rare that I have not heard of one ever. All of the issues we have heard of before this one are caused by the operators rather than the press/manufacturer. The customer with the press that was dropped is the first ever I heard that it was MHM's fault. This is not to say that their product is perfect, as nobody's is, but as far as reliability they beat anything else on the market. Your personal choice then becomes, do you want a press that will break more often and the support is going to be faster or something that will break less and there is a short delay in getting the support.
pierre
I don't think anyone has any hard data to say who is the most reliable. But M&R is always in that discussion near or at the top to anyone I talk to. Also when deciding who is most reliable, it would fail me to not take into consideration who can repair a issue the fastest. M&R has more support staff than anyone...period. M&R's support team is larger than many press manufacture companies probably......
I think you know my over all point, and its not directly about MHM. Don't have to defend them so hard. I think they are a great press, it was even the first press I looked at.
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Thanks to the mods for cleaning the spill in aisle 5. As an owner of both MHM and M&R, they are both great machines and are well backed. We've had our MHM Synchroprint over 8 years now, we may have lost 3 days in that time, pretty good record I think. The film placement unit alone is the very best registration unit I've seen, hands down. Our M&R Gauntlet S, '94, keeps up fine, but requires a lot more maintenance, mostly due to age I think. We have never had service trouble with the MHM, no matter who the reps were. When we bought it, we were dealing with them directly, out of Spartansburg, NC.
Steve
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Brandt,
Real quick as this is cell post..
MHM has a warehouse in TN fully stocked with parts and machines.
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I am going to strongly disagree with you on this one. This is the first time that I heard of press being down and needing a tech from Austria to get it up and running.
Once could be enough to scare me off, I don't have that type of time.....or patience.
Parts are available in US and come in next day if needed. The only way you are going to get them faster is if you live by the manufacturer and can drive and pick up the part yourself.
I can think of parts that I bet are not sitting on US Soil for many overseas manufactures. I have heard of people clipping a press with a fork lift, thus needing a print arm. You think MHM has a spare one for you on US soil for your press? I bet M&R does. Take that for what it's worth. Is it likely you'd need a print arm? No, but I think it illustrates the point I am making. Plus who doesn't like to buy from american companies when they can. I sure do when its possible.
As far as not doing what is advertised, you might have MHM confused with another brand! What exactly are you talking about here?
My post wasn't really directed at MHM, more a generalization of the drama some have to go through with overseas press suppliers. This post is a example of that. No need to read into it, just a observation. MHM has always been a fine manufacture. I never said any differently.
There is a waiting period for a lot of stuff out there. MHM presses are in stock and can be delivered pretty quickly unless something has to be custom made. I will give you that if it has to be shipped from Austria it will take longer to get here, but for the most part press purchases are not an impulse buy and are delivered when needed. What do you know about ppl waiting? I'd like to know. I am planning on another press soon and based on my experiences there is no doubt what I am getting, but again, I am a sample of one and would like to know what somebody else had issues with.
Again my post was a generalization of overseas press suppliers. Seems many of them are 8-12 weeks at best, a year or more, or never at worst. I think that in itself is enough to make me stay away. I am a small timer and I printed enough in the time some have waited for their press that I could have paid for mine in cash in that time frame. So it's food for thought. MHM I am sure is on the up and up though and presses are actually delivered when ordered and roughly on time.
There might not be much hard evidence out there, but ppl I talked to, even if they were not running MHM's, agreed that it is the most reliable press on the market. That translates into less down time than anybody else and if you add the shorter setup times it does produce more per dollar than the competition. I will absolutely agree that in a case of some catastrophic failure it might take longer to get it back up, but those are so rare that I have not heard of one ever. All of the issues we have heard of before this one are caused by the operators rather than the press/manufacturer. The customer with the press that was dropped is the first ever I heard that it was MHM's fault. This is not to say that their product is perfect, as nobody's is, but as far as reliability they beat anything else on the market. Your personal choice then becomes, do you want a press that will break more often and the support is going to be faster or something that will break less and there is a short delay in getting the support.
pierre
I don't think anyone has any hard data to say who is the most reliable. But M&R is always in that discussion near or at the top to anyone I talk to. Also when deciding who is most reliable, it would fail me to not take into consideration who can repair a issue the fastest. M&R has more support staff than anyone...period. M&R's support team is larger than many press manufacture companies probably......
I think you know my over all point, and its not directly about MHM. Don't have to defend them so hard. I think they are a great press, it was even the first press I looked at.
thank you for taking the time to answer this and 'am glad we cleared up the important issues.
pierre
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Brandt,
Real quick as this is cell post..
MHM has a warehouse in TN fully stocked with parts and machines.
I can see everyone clearly missed the actual point of my post. The post was barely about MHM.....
I will try to be more obvious...lol.
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I can see everyone clearly missed the actual point of my post. The post was barely about MHM.....
I will try to be more obvious...lol.
Yeah, but you see what posts praising M&R spawn!
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Here is a little input from a competitor. MHM as a whole have been a viable competitor here and abroad. They as the norm have not used false statements to push their wares and from what we see usually deliver somewhat close to their delivery dates. Just like here at M&R getting parts to another country can at times be an issue due to customs, duties, and freight schedules. That is why we build machines for Europe in Europe and follow metrics in the countries that are using them. Finding an air cylinder or fitting, etc that is metric in the States is not impossible but not as easy as US standard. The old MHM was a fair competitor and through Hirsch did a reasonable job servicing their customers. The new owners I have no idea how they will be. Am I biased about M&R absolutely and truly believe we are the best there is in this industry when it comes to equipment, service, and performance. When looking at all the other players I would say MHM is #2 with all the others a great distance behind. Just my opinion for what its worth.
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I can see everyone clearly missed the actual point of my post. The post was barely about MHM.....
I will try to be more obvious...lol.
Yeah, but you see what posts praising M&R spawn!
LOL.
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Here is a little input from a competitor. MHM as a whole have been a viable competitor here and abroad. They as the norm have not used false statements to push their wares and from what we see usually deliver somewhat close to their delivery dates. Just like here at M&R getting parts to another country can at times be an issue due to customs, duties, and freight schedules. That is why we build machines for Europe in Europe and follow metrics in the countries that are using them. Finding an air cylinder or fitting, etc that is metric in the States is not impossible but not as easy as US standard. The old MHM was a fair competitor and through Hirsch did a reasonable job servicing their customers. The new owners I have no idea how they will be. Am I biased about M&R absolutely and truly believe we are the best there is in this industry when it comes to equipment, service, and performance. When looking at all the other players I would say MHM is #2 with all the others a great distance behind. Just my opinion for what its worth.
Rich,
I think we can all recognize, you are clearly an upstanding individual and we thank you for your contribution here.
Dot-Tone-Dan
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PC! MAC! FORD! CHEVY!
Opposite of buyers remorse (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-purchase_rationalization)
Jeez what did I do. People really get their panties in a bunch over this sort of thing. A critique on your purchase or your posession is not an attack on your personally. What is the spill on aisle 5 I missed?
My main point was that even the dude from Austria couldn't fix the problem. This is a 1 press shop, and they had
already dismantled their old press (TAS) to make room for the new one. Obviously disconcerting enough that the guy was calling around to other MHM shops to ask opinions. I said straight up if you never want to be in this situation again buy an M&R. It's the same logic as not buying a rare Yugoslavian truck to deliver lumber in the US every day. Even if the truck is badass and makes cool noises. Common as dirt can be a very good thing.
I'll post more when not tapping on a phone.
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I would bet that in any manufacturing business not just ours that every major player has had issues with a product on site, its machinery and S H I T happens. Rich is a stand up guy and I would think he would admit some where in their long history of equipment sales a bad piece went out the door. Hell I know of a press down in GA sold by barnes that was bad on delivery and never was replaced. It sounds to me like MHM is bending over backwards to right the wrong to the point of now losing money let alone making any profit off the original sale.
EB is right tho i learned the hard way there is a lot to be said dealing with a American company with a long history of support and reliability backing it up.
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I said straight up if you never want to be in this situation again buy an M&R. It's the same logic as not buying a rare Yugoslavian truck to deliver lumber in the US every day. Even if the truck is badass and makes cool noises. Common as dirt can be a very good thing.
This makes way to much sense, people will ignore it. :o
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I am amazed at you guys and the way your acting about this situation. Even if I didn't have a MHM I would not look at this as a bad mark on MHM. We really shouldn't even be talking about it unless the guy in California is here. We don't have all the facts. We have to be very careful about what we say on a open forum like this. You can hurt a manufacture for a long time by saying the wrong thing. I am not saying to lie or not tell the facts. Just don't say things you know nothing about. Saying MHM can't service a machine because parts come from over seas. Many of the Press have over sea parts even the ones made here. It has been pointed out that MHM has plenty of parts here in the US to cover any day to day issues that their presses may have.
Why whenever there is a post about autos all we hear is how great M&R's service is and we should buy them because M&R can fix what they make.
This was a post about a situation a guy is having with a MHM. In this same situation what would M&R do different?
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This was a post about a situation a guy is having with a MHM.
I seen the post more like:
This was a post about a situation a guy is having with getting exactly what he ordered from a overseas manufacture and to make it more complicated the manufacture has visited and after 2 presses its still not right. I didn't even use MHM in my original reply, nor do I think they are a bad company in any way, never said anything remotely like that. However, there seems to be a lot of issues with presses coming from overseas (not specifically MHM but in general). Be it sales/service/support/or the actual press working like it's suppose to. So I was just touching on that.
Distance clearly complicates things......
I think the reason you see a lot of M&R posting is because thats what most people use. Laws of averages. If as a whole the world sells more red cars, you will see more red cars. If M&R sells the most presses and those customers are happy, I am sure you will hear a lot about that.
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This was a post about a situation a guy is having with a MHM.
I seen the post more like:
This was a post about a situation a guy is having with getting exactly what he ordered from a overseas manufacture and to make it more complicated the manufacture has visited and after 2 presses its still not right. I didn't even use MHM in my original reply, nor do I think they are a bad company in any way, never said anything remotely like that. However, there seems to be a lot of issues with presses coming from overseas (not specifically MHM but in general). Be it sales/service/support/or the actual press working like it's suppose to. So I was just touching on that.
Distance clearly complicates things......
I think the reason you see a lot of M&R posting is because thats what most people use. Laws of averages. If as a whole the world sells more red cars, you will see more red cars. If M&R sells the most presses and those customers are happy, I am sure you will hear a lot about that.
Brandt,
I am not trying to start anything here. I am just curious, You sound like you know M&Rs service really well. What would M&R do different with their local service?
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Also note, that the "spill in Isle 5 was pertaining to a certain beast to "who shall not be named" that registered under a fake name again but has been captured and euthanized. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/euthanize) That might be where you are reading of some pooh pooh. Nobody else is rally saying anything horrible. The bad man in gone now.
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Most any press manufacturer can make a bad apple. One that gives the customer, dealer AND the manufacturer an ulcer. Unfortunately for MHM it sounds like a bad apple was sent to replace a busted machine. Perfect crap-storm.
No to say that a company like M&R could ever prevent this, I think most any manufacturer is vulnerable in this regard. It's how quick the problem gets resolved that separates the true competitors from the posers. If required you could have a small army of M&R techs at your door for the cost of flying in a single Austrian specialist.
This is the same reason I use (and endorse) DW drums and hardware - they are the best possible option out there. Great sound, consistent build quality, reliable and parts can be had at most any drum shop on earth. Not the cheapest (AT ALL) but for the cost of a good custom built boutique kit you also have world wide product support.
Not to mention they make the top end drums from scratch right here in California. I've even toured the factory. Much harder to do this with Japanese or German brands.
Also, not unlike M&R, they understand a systems-built approach to their product line. One stop shopping.
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Also note, that the "spill in Isle 5 was pertaining to a certain beast to "who shall not be named" that registered under a fake name again but has been captured and euthanized. ([url]http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/euthanize[/url]) That might be where you are reading of some pooh pooh. Nobody else is rally saying anything horrible. The bad man in gone now.
Thanks for keeping lookout with an internet dart gun at hand.
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This was a post about a situation a guy is having with a MHM.
I seen the post more like:
This was a post about a situation a guy is having with getting exactly what he ordered from a overseas manufacture and to make it more complicated the manufacture has visited and after 2 presses its still not right. I didn't even use MHM in my original reply, nor do I think they are a bad company in any way, never said anything remotely like that. However, there seems to be a lot of issues with presses coming from overseas (not specifically MHM but in general). Be it sales/service/support/or the actual press working like it's suppose to. So I was just touching on that.
Distance clearly complicates things......
I think the reason you see a lot of M&R posting is because thats what most people use. Laws of averages. If as a whole the world sells more red cars, you will see more red cars. If M&R sells the most presses and those customers are happy, I am sure you will hear a lot about that.
Brandt,
I am not trying to start anything here. I am just curious, You sound like you know M&Rs service really well. What would M&R do different with their local service?
I spent a considerable amount of time talking to shops before a made my press purchase. My largest question for all of these people other than how did they like the machines, was how was the service/support. I talked to more than one shop from each manufacture I had on my list, some manufactures I called several shops each, double digits on some even. I couldn't find a single unhappy M&R Customer, I am sure some exist, don't doubt it for a second. I didn't find one though, and the service/support question was all rave reviews. In contrast, one thing that was consistent for many of the shops I talked to with overseas presses was "we love/like our press, but when it breaks we have to wait, or they service is harder to reach than id like" or similar type answers. Again a generalization, but heard over and over again.
So take it for whatever you like, but I did my homework on this the best I could. I didn't take any manufacture at their word, I didn't call shops they wanted me to call, I called people I wanted to call. Most very helpful!
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I can say when I was researching autos for those few years, I thought the best thing I did was talk to other shops about their auto and how they liked it. I still have those notes I took somewhere in my messy desk and I could go back through those notes and tell you exactly which brands got the better marks on service after the sale. Two companies in particular were repeat offenders with the issue of getting technical help when they needed it, but we'll just leave that alone as to not ruffle any more feathers. And I'll go ahead and disclose that I've heard from several different people that RPM wasn't the greatest about tech support after the sale but I've called Rick probably 50 times over the past 2.5 years, 2 of them needing technical support and the other 48 were just to shoot the crap or a mentoring type conversation and I've never not gotten to talk to him right away or at least within an hour or two. And he's pretty much just a 1 man show trying to do too much and I've never gotten the impression that I wouldn't be taken care of in a hurry if I needed it. I guess if it went down at 2am then I'd have to wait a while but thankfully we aren't that kind of shop yet so 24 hour support isn't something I'm going to be concerned about any time soon. The other 2 companies that have issues with support should not have any excuses to not give great support after the sale, especially the larger of the two companies.
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I said straight up if you never want to be in this situation again buy an M&R. It's the same logic as not buying a rare Yugoslavian truck to deliver lumber in the US every day. Even if the truck is badass and makes cool noises. Common as dirt can be a very good thing.
This makes way to much sense, people will ignore it. :o
a little too simplistic, I've had US companies fail me no matter how much they have in stock or how many technicians they have. I compared the MHM we have dead on to the M&R at buying time, and there was nothing to think about, get the MHM. And I do think M&R makes a great product, with great service. But in comparing the 2, it was no-brainer. Again, the film placement unit makes the Trilock a joke, even though it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, if you have the M&R... ;D
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If you have more than one MHM press try registering the screens in one press and then switch them to your other press and see how big of a joke the Triloc is. Might make you think twice about the Triloc .no attachments for the frames, any type of frame works,can set up and test print on the Chameleon or Sidewinder, figure out what sequence you want to print in after pulling a few samples in about two minutes, and then throw the screens into the auto without cleaning out the ink and be up and running in a couple minutes. Thats no joke in my book!
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I'd bet ten bucks that M&R under the same circumstances would have had the problem solved in 1 maybe 2 days. And the tech wouldn't have to check his passport.
And Brandt, while I generally agree with what you're saying, before you go getting all gung ho about your brand/purchase, one of these days when I don't feel like fishing I'll make a video of the things my press can do that others can't.
I would also be very surprised if there are print arms, supports or any other major mechanical parts for any MHM press stocked in the US. Hell what type of cylinders/proxy sensors are they using on the E-Types?
As for the FPU vs the Triloc, I think MHM wins on this one solely due to usability. I can't tell you how many shops I've seen where the Triloc sits dusty in the corner. It's just that there is so much more involved with the carrier sheets and pallet that most people think it's too much extra work. Which is of course false and their loss, but the path of least resistance is usually most followed. The FPU system is simple and elegant and requires no further materials or processes than would be required to simply tape a film to a screen.
M&R should buy MHM and the Challenger S-type would leave very little doubt.
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M&R should buy MHM and the Challenger S-type would leave very little doubt.
flip up print heads on the challengers with single lever actuated squeegee/flood angles and 3" of vertical screen travel.. we can dream right
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I can't tell you how many shops I've seen where the Triloc sits dusty in the corner. It's just that there is so much more involved with the carrier sheets and pallet that most people think it's too much extra work.
Actually I think the Achilles heal of the Tri-Loc is that many shops (heck...most?) don't keep the damn presses dialed in enough to make it work properly. If you take the initial time and care to streamline and refine your process, the Tri-Loc works amazingly well. Carrier sheets are really a non-issue - in fact, if you like to catalog films and not screens, they rock. (register a repeat job correctly ONCE, and it will always burn registered)
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If you have more than one MHM press try registering the screens in one press and then switch them to your other press and see how big of a joke the Triloc is. Might make you think twice about the Triloc .no attachments for the frames, any type of frame works,can set up and test print on the Chameleon or Sidewinder, figure out what sequence you want to print in after pulling a few samples in about two minutes, and then throw the screens into the auto without cleaning out the ink and be up and running in a couple minutes. Thats no joke in my book!
I don't know a thing about fixing presses or what one is best, but I do know that when I worked at Park Printing before it was bought out by Fortune Fashion, we sampled everything on a chameleon and from there, it went on to any one of our 4 other M&R presses. We could even take one job down, walk over and set it up on a another press if we needed to at a very decent time. We were horrible at setup times before we had a 'come to Jesus" moment. We knew our setup times were bad.
While setting up another new press, Rich and about 5 crew were with us and they taught every one of our setup people how to use the tri-loc system accurately. It cut our times in half. I'm not 100% sure, but I think we got down to about 20-25 min to set up a 14 color print, give or take 5 min due to not being involved in that closely. I don't know if thats good for other people and different processes or not. Not knowing what the MHM does. Pierre told me, but I don't remember the specifics.
I remember when I first came to Park Printing, and the plant Mgr telling me we used to take 80-120 minutes for a 14 color setup till the law was laid down. I think tho, that they (M&R crew) had set it up faster than the 20-25 min. but our people were not as good at it. Most were little middle aged ladies that just wanted to make a buck and go home.
You could tho, take any set of screens and run it over to another press and re-setup to complete and order. Maybe even duplicate it and run it on two presses at the same time. We would juggle orders and presses at times when accommodating rush orders.
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This can put 14 color setups in perspective for some..
At last time mesaure.. It takes us 11.38 minutes to 'make' a screen ready for press. This includes every step in pre-press before a printers hand loads the screen in press. It took an hour at best to set those 14 screens then regi for a test print. Usually it took upwards of 2 hours.
That's over 4.5 hrs of labor and materials into the job, just to set it up.
It now takes 2.85 minutes per screen to set up and print with triloc. This is from screen in head to printed image. They can't get the old job out of the way quick enough to load the new one. It's created it's own set of problems but that's a different story.
Our time now is 3.3 hrs of labor. That's one heck of a time savings for just one job in one day.. do that twice a day for a week and you just gained an entire day worth of printing time!
Oh yeah.. let me add that we needed to sample the order first. Print then take screens out, print other jobs while proofed, re-do 2 screens for the approval and re-set with inky and new clean screens and was back up and printing in 2.85 min per screen.
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And Brandt, while I generally agree with what you're saying, before you go getting all gung ho about your brand/purchase, one of these days when I don't feel like fishing I'll make a video of the things my press can do that others can't.
That's just it, it's not even me being gung ho so much about my purchase as it's just seeing this same theme over and over again with other purchases that the common thing is overseas manufacture. Over the last couple of years, publicly we have seen a lot of drama with some overseas manufactures.
As far as what your press can do that others can't, I have probably already seen it. All I really care about in my shop is that my press runs day in and day out and its fast to set up, fast to tear down, and I have support team behind it if I ever need it. My press does that, it wasn't dropped off a truck, it wasn't shipped with wrong pallets, it prints the size or more that it was suppose to, it was on time or early, it was the price it was suppose to be, it prints shirts..... Which all seems like what we all should be able to say. Apparently not everyone can though, that's a shame.
Again I am sure MHM is making the situation right, they seem like a upstanding company. My postings haven't really been about MHM....more so a generalization.
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I love the MHM FPU so I made one that works like it but uses the triloc stop points. I like the triloc pallet jig so I made one similar and I married the two together to make a system that takes the best of both worlds and it works better than I could have imagined. I still have to make adjustments on it so that it will last forever, I just made a working prototype to test it out and see if and where it needed additional refinement. I'd love to see M&R with all of their badass tools and engineers take what I did and manufacture one like it. It would be a killer product. Imagine having a triloc system where it takes 5 seconds or so to attach the film to the screen.
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If you have more than one MHM press try registering the screens in one press and then switch them to your other press and see how big of a joke the Triloc is. Might make you think twice about the Triloc .no attachments for the frames, any type of frame works,can set up and test print on the Chameleon or Sidewinder, figure out what sequence you want to print in after pulling a few samples in about two minutes, and then throw the screens into the auto without cleaning out the ink and be up and running in a couple minutes. Thats no joke in my book!
Hi Rich, I guess using the word "joke" was in poor taste, and I apologize for that. Now, I can figure out print order without setting it up on another press first, and if I do have to change the order, the screens change over in a few seconds, no jive. Also, I don't have a second MHM, but if I did, I would simply get the FPU for it and be done. We do have an older Gauntlet, and like it very much, but when we're slower in the winter, it doesn't get turned on, not that it's a fair comparison (the MHM is 10 years newer) other than the machine that sets up faster gets the nod. Again, sorry for the poor choice of words...
Steve
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If you have more than one MHM press try registering the screens in one press and then switch them to your other press and see how big of a joke the Triloc is.
Rich am I missing something here? You use the same FPU for all MHM presses. If both presses are set to all Zeros you should be able to move a job off one and to the next with no registration problems. I can move a screen from head 1 to head 2 without the registration being messed up. There is no difference in another head on my one press to another press if they are set up right and are on all zeros.
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If you have more than one MHM press try registering the screens in one press and then switch them to your other press and see how big of a joke the Triloc is.
Rich am I missing something here? You use the same FPU for all MHM presses. If both presses are set to all Zeros you should be able to move a job off one and to the next with no registration problems. I can move a screen from head 1 to head 2 without the registration being messed up. There is no difference in another head on my one press to another press if they are set up right and are on all zeros.
I think Rich may have been pointing out the benefit of using a platen jig. Wherever you take that jig well, there it is, exact same point(s) of contact on any machine, any arm. I know most see using a platen jig as an inconvenience but it probably shines on multiple machines because of this point. Provided, of course, that your machines are all somewhat calibrated to one another.
I imagine MHM's are built to tolerance that allows you to swap screens machine to machine with the bushing system. Most machines probably are not however and a platen jig makes much more sense.
One really good point about the tri-lock is how freaking versatile the simple 3 point system is. Our Newman Pin-lock can't be used with anything but newmans (unless you did some serious modifying to other frames), the MHM bushings only work on MHM autos. That single tri-lock platen can run all over the shop. In fact, I've though about it and if we had an MHM I would actually require a tri-lock type jig as a secondary system to use for manual sampling or if you had any other brand of auto in the house. You could align films with the FPU and use the 3 point jig to register on the non-MHMs.
BTW, this has turned into an excellent thread, very glad I decided to read it.
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I'm not too sure how you would mount the triloc on an MHM, since the frames are locked into place in the frameholders, no need for the triloc there. My point is that the MHM fpu is so easy, that you wouldn't use the triloc on it (even if there was some way to do that) it would be more work. If you had both presses and both registration units, and one job that wouldn't be affected in any way by which press was used, would you really use a carrier sheet system? The MHM fpu and frameholder on the machine IS a triloc, sort of, just different. What I've really learned most from this discussion (besides remembering to mind my manners and not refer to someone's piece of equipment as a joke, still sorry about that) is that I would most likely only buy MHM or M&R, and none of the others.
Steve
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I'm not too sure how you would mount the triloc on an MHM, since the frames are locked into place in the frameholders, no need for the triloc there. My point is that the MHM fpu is so easy, that you wouldn't use the triloc on it (even if there was some way to do that) it would be more work. If you had both presses and both registration units, and one job that wouldn't be affected in any way by which press was used, would you really use a carrier sheet system? The MHM fpu and frameholder on the machine IS a triloc, sort of, just different. What I've really learned most from this discussion (besides remembering to mind my manners and not refer to someone's piece of equipment as a joke, still sorry about that) is that I would most likely only buy MHM or M&R, and none of the others.
Steve
I was talking about the other way around: you align all films using the MHM FPU since all your screens have the bushings. If you need to run those screens on a manual or an M&R machine you could use a 3 point registrations platen similar to or even an actual tri-lock to do so. It would just be a way to use the FPU aligned screens on all types of presses in your shop since the films were aligned relative to each other. If you had three press types with three platen mounting styles you could even make additional 3 point jigs for each and still reap the benefits of the MHM FPU system.
I hope that made sense. I was just pointing out that, regardless of the carrier sheets and other pre-press in the system used to place the films that the simple 3 point, reg to the platen system is the most versatile of the bunch when it comes to loading screens in the press as it can move around from press to press as a static, independent point of alignment.
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I'm not too sure how you would mount the triloc on an MHM, since the frames are locked into place in the frameholders, no need for the triloc there. My point is that the MHM fpu is so easy, that you wouldn't use the triloc on it (even if there was some way to do that) it would be more work. If you had both presses and both registration units, and one job that wouldn't be affected in any way by which press was used, would you really use a carrier sheet system? The MHM fpu and frameholder on the machine IS a triloc, sort of, just different. What I've really learned most from this discussion (besides remembering to mind my manners and not refer to someone's piece of equipment as a joke, still sorry about that) is that I would most likely only buy MHM or M&R, and none of the others.
Steve
I was talking about the other way around: you align all films using the MHM FPU since all your screens have the bushings. If you need to run those screens on a manual or an M&R machine you could use a 3 point registrations platen similar to or even an actual tri-lock to do so. It would just be a way to use the FPU aligned screens on all types of presses in your shop since the films were aligned relative to each other. If you had three press types with three platen mounting styles you could even make additional 3 point jigs for each and still reap the benefits of the MHM FPU system.
I hope that made sense. I was just pointing out that, regardless of the carrier sheets and other pre-press in the system used to place the films that the simple 3 point, reg to the platen system is the most versatile of the bunch when it comes to loading screens in the press as it can move around from press to press as a static, independent point of alignment.
Yep, it does make sense. We do on very rare occasion put 23 x 31 on our Rototex 8c manual.
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I was just to curious how this situation ended for this guy so I called him (I know I should just stay out of this but I wanted to make sure he was taken care of.)
He is now a member of this forum so I hope he adds to this short update.
Robert now is a proud owner of a MHM 10 color S-type for a great deal. It is installed and running perfectly. Way to go Hirsch and MHM.