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screen printing => Ink and Chemicals => Topic started by: Fresh Baked Printing on May 05, 2011, 08:13:45 AM
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So I'm printing my first 100% poly job (Sport-Tek? - Competitor? Tee. ST350). They also get numbers from Transfer Express.
Transfer Express says the the procedure is the same for poly shirts as it is on cotton shirts regarding their screened transfer number application
Printing black ink on a gold color shirt so I'm assuming the regular black should be no problem.
Do I cure the shirt just as I would a cotton shirt?
Pretty much business as usual with these 100% poly shirts getting the regular black ink?
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I print on polyester 'stuff' all the time, much to my dislike.
Jerseys, under-armor style garments, blends, etc.
White ink requires a low-bleed mix, but regular old black ink works just fine.
Watch your first garments going through the dryer carefully.
Many poly garments require the belt to be sped up some, as they will shrink,
or even 'scortch' faster than cotton.
Find the sweet spot and you should be golden.
Hope that helps.
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So I'm printing my first 100% poly job (Sport-Tek? - Competitor? Tee. ST350). They also get numbers from Transfer Express.
Transfer Express says the the procedure is the same for poly shirts as it is on cotton shirts regarding their screened transfer number application
Printing black ink on a gold color shirt so I'm assuming the regular black should be no problem.
Do I cure the shirt just as I would a cotton shirt?
Pretty much business as usual with these 100% poly shirts getting the regular black ink?
also, make sure you have somebody catching them. They will wrinkle if left in the bin and you will have to send them through again.
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good tips, also, use more tack especially for multi color, they just don't stick quite as well. Plain old black should do fine.
Steve
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All great tips. Thanks everybody!
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Though I think black ink on gold will not be a problem, watch out for ghosting especially with light ink colors on darks, when you stack them hot say front side just printed and facing down sometimes the image will ghost onto the shirt below. We stack in small piles, like 6-12 at a time and let them cool before putting them back in one big pile (especially in hot summer months). I know it sounds crazy but we've had the problem happen more times than I want to remember.
Don't pack them hot either, let them cool. I've opened 2 week old cases that were packed hot and they migrated horribly, if you let them cool, it will help a lot.
One more reason I hate polyester.
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Oh yeah..
we have a cool down box on the end of our one dryer ( proper name escapes me ).
The other one doesn't, so we set up a fan blowing across the garments as they come out.
No a cure all, but it does help if you forget to catch them.
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All good suggestions.
While we're on the poly subject I'll add that we run any poly through the dryer before we print. It helps with shrinkage if we are printing anything that requires flashing and seems to help with sublimation problems... dye migrating into light color inks, ghosting, etc.
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All good suggestions.
While we're on the poly subject I'll add that we run any poly through the dryer before we print. It helps with shrinkage if we are printing anything that requires flashing and seems to help with sublimation problems... dye migrating into light color inks, ghosting, etc.
I run Poly and nylon through the dryer to deal with shrinkage, but I challenge the process as helping in poly dye sublimation/dye migration in the slightest.
From what I understand, if anything, it can actually exacerbate the problem by exciting those little molecule fellas.
Run 'em down to pre-shrink, cool 'em off, print away, and watch your temps.
I am willing to listen to anyone with repeatable, quantifiable evidence to the contrary. I am still learning.
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I would love to know an expert's take on this as well. Dye migration is a huge problem and with onset in popularity of 100% poly gear, it would serve us all to know as much as possible on the subject.
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To further my previous post, in case it wasn't obvious I was trying to suggest, can we get an industry pro to talk shop about dye migration and have a good discussion on the subject, not discounting in anyway all suggestions made previously.
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One thing I didn't see mentioned here is an ink with a low cure temp so you can ensure a good cure without melting the garment or aggravating the dyes too much. If it's 100% poly I reach for the "athletic" inks every time and they haven't done us wrong yet.
I'm with frog on running them through the dryer once or pre-flashing if it's multicolor but am highly skeptical that heating up the garments is going to somehow help prevent migration of the dyes into the print. I don't see the logic there, the more I think about it.
One thing that's frustrating about dye migration to me is that it's out of our hands often no matter what we do as printers. From the little I know, both garment manufacturers and dye houses don't use consistent product as it isn't economically feasible to do so. That leaves us stuck dealing with whatever mix of whatever sort of polyester they used and whichever sorts of dyes they mixed up to dip that lot into. It's little wonder the variables are all over the road.
On the sunnier side, we've had the pleasure of added migration blocking from the phthalate-free inks we use. I guess they block dyes better than standard plastisols. I didn't know this until recently and just figured we were doing everything right.
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After printing, is it the wash cycle or the clothes dryer that causes them to bleed? Can following specific laundry instructions after they're in the customers hands help?
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After printing, is it the wash cycle or the clothes dryer that causes them to bleed? Can following specific laundry instructions after they're in the customers hands help?
Twenty years ago, I had an order of 50/50 reds printed white turn pink two weeks later. Some laundered, some not. In this instance, at least, it was neither the washing nor the drying cycles.
I have avoided this combination like the plague since then
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After printing, is it the wash cycle or the clothes dryer that causes them to bleed? Can following specific laundry instructions after they're in the customers hands help?
Like Frog said. It can be neither but and it can also be all three, Dwell time/heat, Time in the heat in a store/on shelves, Drying in a dryer.. I remember seeing an order go through the shop perfect and a few weeks later, they started complaining about them turning pink (on the shelves/hangers). Time/heat can also turn them if the due is not blocked well.
I did just notice a shirt today that Jerzees gave out at the show ---a few months back Maybe Jan/Feb. and I know it's been washed at least 5 times. Still bright as the first day Solid white on Red 50/50 I happened to pick at it today for some reason.
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Its no secret that dye migration is attributed to the dyes releasing gas when subjected to heat. Its also no secret that there is no one cure all solution to the problem to to all the mitigating factors. Take the dreaded Dickies workshirt. In my opinion one of the worst blanks to print on with regards to this problem; most likely due to the sheer mass of dyed fabric. I've found that adding a catalyst to the ink and curing at lower temperature; then leaving the garments to finish curing overnight (unstacked) solved the problem quite well. I know its a PITA but those garments are expensive! I like to keep a variety of polywhites, underbase grays, and a nylobond catalyst around for these occaisions and generally can arrive at a solution.
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Here comes the buzz-kill Frog again!
The downside of the Nylobond trick, is a decrease in suppleness (an increase in brittleness)
Can be real funky on thin, somewhat stretchy garments, but probably less of an issue on thicker work shirts like the dreaded Dickies.
Though not allowing temps as low as catalyst does, ink companies do have additives to lower cure temps, like this 3804 from International Coatings (http://www.iccink.com/pdfs/3804%20Low%20Cure%20Additive-10-06-10.pdf)
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I think the point about using a poly ink with a lower than average cure temp sounds like a really good idea. Our mainstay wilflex polywhite cures at 320, so what we're doing now post the latest migration nightmare is probing the ink and making sure we stay as close as possible to 320 at the end of the dryer. I'm allowing a 20 degree window on cure temps for poly and poly blends, so 320-340. I'm not sure how effective that will be, but for the interim that's the plan.
I'd sure like to know if someone could recommend a polywhite with exceptional bleed resistance that can cure at a lower temp as itt seems to me that the extent of migration is directly related to excessive heat as many have mentioned, but also prolonged exposure to heat, i.e. hot stacked or packed garments.
My first bad experience was probably about 12 or so years ago on a 2K pc run of royal 50/50's...I can't remember exactly what white it was, but I seem to remember it being one of the performance whites that supposedly had anti migration agents in it, well...aparently not enough because the shirts bled badly. Since then on poly and poly blends, we have always used only whites we know are highly resistant to bleeding, the unfortunate part in my experience is these whites are thick and heavy, and a PITA to print.
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Just off the phone with Polyone, here's a new series of low cure and low bleed (290 degrees) white, ub grey and a base for mixing colors with wilflex PC's. Polyone says the bleed resistance is as good as polywhite.
Sounds really good, I'm going to get a sample and see what I think.
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Well, ordered the sample, but list price on gallons of the white (epic performace white) is $119!
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As I said, I avoid colored 50/50 T's whenever possible, but in the past, sometimes clients wanted them for the nickel or dime less in price. There goes that savings! lol!
Interestingly, the Jersey girl tells me that 50/50 is all they want there, while, fortunately, out here on the left coast, its almost all cotton for me.
I rarely get requests for 50/50 , and when I do, it's usually easy to explain and change to cotton.
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I have not repeat not tried this but the Lancer Group has a couple of products of interest. An LCA (low cure additive) and an LBA (low bleed additive). The LCA reportably enables a standard plastisol to cure at temperatures between 260 and 275 degrees. So what would happen if you added this (they say around 5%) to a really kick ass poly white?
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I used Unions low bleed but it's a bear to pull the squeeze with. Thick.
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I have not repeat not tried this but the Lancer Group has a couple of products of interest. An LCA (low cure additive) and an LBA (low bleed additive). The LCA reportably enables a standard plastisol to cure at temperatures between 260 and 275 degrees. So what would happen if you added this (they say around 5%) to a really kick ass poly white?
Tony, where were you (or the Lancer Excaliber people) when we just started here a few weeks back? Pierre was asking about a low bleed additive, and we couldn't come up with one! This is a first, as far as I know.
Of course, Excaliber is not widely distributed in my end of the continent. I was quite happy with their Arctic White for cotton that I got as a bonus from the now defunct AArons.
Lancer stuff (http://www.lancergroup.com/lancer/ink_catalog/additives_bases/catalog5.html#low_cure_additive)
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Sorry Andy..........Sometimes I have actual work to do!
Cheers tp
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The athletic ink we've used in the past are qcm's ATP series in stock colors and once in awhile I'll add a bit of pigment base to the white to get a certain color. They've worked out very well on a lot of different substrates and definitely are weird as all get out to print. The white is super runny yet impossible to stroke clear in one hit somehow, it's like a science demonstration for kids or something but what the demonstration is I'm not sure. I cure garments printed with this stuff at around 320 or so on the ray gun.
We are going to be switching over to the Epic Performance this month it looks like, or next time we get a job requiring it. I like that it's a base so you just pick up a gallon of that and maybe a gallon of the performance ub grey and you can mix whatever you need with the pc pigments. Like everything in the epic series the price is a bitch but so far it's been worth every penny in my opinion just for the consistency and peace of mind.
Again, the phthalate-free might be making the difference. I don't know since I've never printed with phthalate-laden inks but it makes sense that some plasticizers invite dye more than others.
One more thing, I've yet to get a brittle nylobond print. I still have this gym bag from the first time I ever printed nylon for a soccer team and it's as supple as could be, actually feels a bit softer than my regular prints.
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One more thing, I've yet to get a brittle nylobond print. I still have this gym bag from the first time I ever printed nylon for a soccer team and it's as supple as could be, actually feels a bit softer than my regular prints.
Fortunately, the one thin pass usually needed on water proofed nylon probably helps this, but from experience (and advice from Union techs), as a fixit on problem T's and the unnecessary use on nylon jerseys, it can be a different situation. Those applications need to stretch more.
Using too much is probably another contributing factor.
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Here's the final print on the Gold 100% poly shirts I did.
I did take the applicable tips for dealing with these, like making sure they weren't stacked hot, etc.
The Transfer Express screened numbers came out great and feel like they're not even there. Really smooth.
(http://www.freshbakedprinting.com/temp/Minneapolis-20110510-00134_2.jpg)
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One stroke for white, red, ath gold, reg. black works well. biggest thing is speed dryer up and LET THEM COOL BEFORE STACKING!!!! Nice print ;)
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Well just got order for 50 ST478 100% poly red, custy wants black ink only, after reading this I should be ok yeah?? Aside from dont stack, let cool preshrink ect. no special ink needed is that correct?
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Yes the bottom line is that the biggest usual concern is dye migration and with this color combination, you are in the clear.
And as I have said before, I love the look of black on red.
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Thanks for the quick feed back.