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Computers and Software => Computers and Software - General => Topic started by: Mr Tees!! on February 10, 2012, 01:32:55 PM
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...hey Gang! I have always just used whatever laptop I had for graphic work and such, mainly because I could carry it home every night. We feel our new location is a bit more secure, and I am thinking of getting a tower for this. I havent had to shop for a computer in a long while, so what should I even be looking for? Mainly for the standard Corel and Adobe suites, and web of course. I know they will need to be wireless, but I think thats pretty much standard nowadays. NO MACS (::))...
....anyone got any advice, or know of a good one that I can get at Staples or Best Buy or somethin'? I KNOW some of you compu-geeks on here follow this stuff...... 8)
...Thanks All!!!!
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You took my advice away from me :(
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Talk to Pierre, he tipped me off to the greatest computer in the world...well, nearly.
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...hey Gang! I have always just used whatever laptop I had for graphic work and such, mainly because I could carry it home every night. We feel our new location is a bit more secure, and I am thinking of getting a tower for this. I havent had to shop for a computer in a long while, so what should I even be looking for? Mainly for the standard Corel and Adobe suites, and web of course. I know they will need to be wireless, but I think thats pretty much standard nowadays. NO MACS (::))...
....anyone got any advice, or know of a good one that I can get at Staples or Best Buy or somethin'? I KNOW some of you compu-geeks on here follow this stuff...... 8)
...Thanks All!!!!
I don't know how to stress this enough and make you a believer. . . Go to itxchange.com and find a Thinkstation. something like this:
https://shop.itxchange.com/OA_HTML/xxtgeibeCCtdItemDetail.jsp?section=10886&item=263407&sitex=10020:22372:US
get some more RAM and buy a copy of windows 7 pro. All together about $500.
they seem to be out of grade A or open box right now, but keep looking. For about $750 you can have and open box system that is probably close to $3k new.
pierre
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personally we are switching to MACs...the PC world just cannot keep up...
sam
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I have always been a mac guy (and still am).. but i picked up a PC for gaming from this website:
http://www.ibuypower.com/ (http://www.ibuypower.com/)
You can customize the PC to fit your needs, and the performance of it will blow away anything you can get from Staples or Best Buy.
Highly Recommended.
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Talk to Pierre, he tipped me off to the greatest computer in the world...well, nearly.
that's right Brad bought one! Ask him, ask him!
They are heavy duty workstations with wider bus and more stable chipset. I normally run at least 20 windows open at the same time and it just does not care. Some of the photoshop files I work with are over 500MB in size and with cashing it will go over 2GB. Everything still moves instantaneously, no waiting. The one in above link is almost identical to what I have.
bang for the buck it just does not get any better (I've sold hundreds of IBM's workstations when I was their business partner in my previous life). I would say a high end Mac might have a slight, very slight edge, but considering you'd have to pay 10x as much, there is no comparison.
pierre
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Just build yourself one. Very easy to do. just built a BAD ASS RIG.
i7 2600k (3.4ghz)
32gb (yes 32 GIGS) of DDR3
240gb SSD Sata III
1.5TB Western Digital Black Sata III
GTX 560
Corsair Power Supply
DVD Drive
Cooler Master Case.
Sucker is a rocket.
If you are into designing and are serious about it you need 3 things.... LOTS of ram. FAST hard drives. Good graphics card.
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Just build yourself one. Very easy to do. just built a BAD ASS RIG.
i7 2600k (3.4ghz)
32gb (yes 32 GIGS) of DDR3
240gb SSD Sata III
1.5TB Western Digital Black Sata III
GTX 560
Corsair Power Supply
DVD Drive
Cooler Master Case.
Sucker is a rocket.
If you are into designing and are serious about it you need 3 things.... LOTS of ram. FAST hard drives. Good graphics card.
If you do build yourself, look into workstation motherboards. Intel used to make good stuff. As mentioned, they run faster, are more reliable and use ECC (error correction and checking) memory.
pierre
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Sam, the PC world can keep up, but a $800 Best Buy computer can't compete against a $5,000 MAC. It just isn't going to happen. The thinkstation is the only system in the shop that actually works like a computer should. There is ZERO lag on that thing.
It's impossible to compare a cheap out of the box system to a Thinkstation. It's all I will buy anymore...period.
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Just build yourself one. Very easy to do. just built a BAD ASS RIG.
i7 2600k (3.4ghz)
32gb (yes 32 GIGS) of DDR3
240gb SSD Sata III
1.5TB Western Digital Black Sata III
GTX 560
Corsair Power Supply
DVD Drive
Cooler Master Case.
Sucker is a rocket.
If you are into designing and are serious about it you need 3 things.... LOTS of ram. FAST hard drives. Good graphics card.
If you do build yourself, look into workstation motherboards. Intel used to make good stuff. As mentioned, they run faster, are more reliable and use ECC (error correction and checking) memory.
pierre
Ive built my own computers for years, had some workstation stuff, used to be a much larger gap in performance, not so much anymore. Just my opinion.
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That system is similar to mine, and I can tell you that the Thinkstation is better. Part of what makes it better is the video card. Ours has an $800 video card in it....it's just plain better than the $250 I have in mine.
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Question? What specs do you guys look for? I've had 2 computers built in the past 4 years. Told the guy it will be used for graphics ect.... and I get a SLOW @SS P.O.S. computer. I do not know anything about computers other than mine is slow as hell and p*sses me off when trying to work on it. So if I buy another computer what do I need under the hood?
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Just build yourself one. Very easy to do. just built a BAD ASS RIG.
i7 2600k (3.4ghz)
32gb (yes 32 GIGS) of DDR3
240gb SSD Sata III
1.5TB Western Digital Black Sata III
GTX 560
Corsair Power Supply
DVD Drive
Cooler Master Case.
Sucker is a rocket.
If you are into designing and are serious about it you need 3 things.... LOTS of ram. FAST hard drives. Good graphics card.
If you do build yourself, look into workstation motherboards. Intel used to make good stuff. As mentioned, they run faster, are more reliable and use ECC (error correction and checking) memory.
pierre
Ive built my own computers for years, had some workstation stuff, used to be a much larger gap in performance, not so much anymore. Just my opinion.
quite possible! I've closed the computer business few years back and have not kept up with the specs of the hadware. It would not surprise me if desktops caught up with some things. If the newer chipsets are running wider buses, they could be just as fast and possibly even faster. Workstations also have to compute the error checking which would slow them down. But even if they are slower, workstation boards are tested longer and built to higher standards. Same goes with the certified video drivers. They use similar components as the gaming cards, but the amount of testing, higher quality control and optimized drives drive the cost up significantly.
In the end, I think the Thinkstation will cost you less and give you more. Don't think you'll get anything close to it for $500 if you build it yourself . . .
pierre
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check out this site www.maingear.com (http://www.maingear.com)
they got the best custom builts machines
for every budget
i bought mine and is very stable
run ILLY. PS. COREL NO PROBLEMO
EVEN GAMING
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Just build yourself one. Very easy to do. just built a BAD ASS RIG.
i7 2600k (3.4ghz)
32gb (yes 32 GIGS) of DDR3
240gb SSD Sata III
1.5TB Western Digital Black Sata III
GTX 560
Corsair Power Supply
DVD Drive
Cooler Master Case.
Sucker is a rocket.
If you are into designing and are serious about it you need 3 things.... LOTS of ram. FAST hard drives. Good graphics card.
If you do build yourself, look into workstation motherboards. Intel used to make good stuff. As mentioned, they run faster, are more reliable and use ECC (error correction and checking) memory.
pierre
Ive built my own computers for years, had some workstation stuff, used to be a much larger gap in performance, not so much anymore. Just my opinion.
quite possible! I've closed the computer business few years back and have not kept up with the specs of the hadware. It would not surprise me if desktops caught up with some things. If the newer chipsets are running wider buses, they could be just as fast and possibly even faster. Workstations also have to compute the error checking which would slow them down. But even if they are slower, workstation boards are tested longer and built to higher standards. Same goes with the certified video drivers. They use similar components as the gaming cards, but the amount of testing, higher quality control and optimized drives drive the cost up significantly.
In the end, I think the Thinkstation will cost you less and give you more. Don't think you'll get anything close to it for $500 if you build it yourself . . .
pierre
To each their own I guess, but I haven't been impressed with most workstation stuff in several years.
There is NO substitute for read/write and amount of ram and raw processor power.
Here is a benchmark score for the processor I just bought vs the one in the one you linked (guessed a little at which c2d it was).
http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Core+i7-2600K+%40+3.40GHz (http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Core+i7-2600K+%40+3.40GHz)
http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Core2+Extreme+X9100+%40+3.06GHz (http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Core2+Extreme+X9100+%40+3.06GHz)
How would you even use that computer anyway, it only had 160gb? Id have to upgrade that quick like. LOL.
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Haven't bought a comp in years being I build my own. I have found I prefer AMD over Intel for processors, AMD has a new quad core processor (http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=685803) out now, built in graphics capabilities that will link to one of their video cards to give you a ton of graphics capability (think running dual video cards). They also have more traditional 8 core (http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1308191&Sku=A79-8150) processors too, & great front side bus speeds. Other than that preference, lots of ram, a decent video card as well as faster rpm sata 6gb hard drives are the ticket (Solid state drive are too new for my tastes).
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You guys have posted some great info here. When building a computer, I always found it was worth the money to just replace something if the drivers didn't play nice with everything else. Sometimes it's the weirdest things that trip you up.
My pops had a notebook that he though was just dead--turned out the HP software (which could have been corrupted or hacked) would literally slow down any explorer request to many seconds--if not a minute. Took that crap out-bam. Like a new computer. You never know what weird crap is going on in the war between system calls.
I'd be interested in Gilligans take--from what I've seen SSD's are friggin awesome--if you have the coin. Incredibly fast and no moving parts. I'm saving my pennies for one right now.
I always have to wonder though--I usually monitor my ram usage, my sweet newish notebook right now has six gigs of memory, and even with stupid massive files in photoshop, I can't get usage over half.
What are you guys running that takes ten or twenty or thirty gigs of memory? Photoshop, Illy, Draw, Excel, Premiere, Modern Warfare, and Skyrim at the same time? ;)
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I always have to wonder though--I usually monitor my ram usage, my sweet newish notebook right now has six gigs of memory, and even with stupid massive files in photoshop, I can't get usage over half.
A lot of that will have to do with the software and the setting you have in it. For example if its Photoshop CS3 you could have 10000 gigs of ram and it will never be able to use more than around 3.2-3.5gb of it. Its a 32 bit program. If you have CS5 you will be able to use more of the ram since it can then address more ram. Stock install though, you'd want to check your preferences, it may be scaling you back because 6gb isn't that much.
What are you guys running that takes ten or twenty or thirty gigs of memory? Photoshop, Illy, Draw, Excel, Premiere, Modern Warfare, and Skyrim at the same time? ;)
I have CS5, today I had a 1.5gb file open, Illustrator, Itunes, Outlook, AIM, Windows Calendar and so on. My computer doesn't even struggle to do this and I am on my old machine still, just a i7 with 12gb of ram and a 120gb SSD, with a few TB of other drives in it.
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Out of curiosity, what is your ram usage with all that stuff open?
I don't know, I don't even flush caches anymore since I got this thing. I am pretty old school and dealt with raster images when 4 megs of ram ran you two hundred bucks though, it might just be cautious use of resources, long ago rendered obsolete.
Oh, and I am running a quad core AMD--with the 64 bit version of Photoshop CS5. I do not deal with 32 bit pixel depth images, and rarely work with images larger than 12x18--I'm sure that's part of it. At this size, 300DPI, and a 24 bit depth, a single raster image is going to be around 55 megs, and even getting fancy pants with eight 16 bit spots I'm still under 300 megs in actual image data.
Heh, the i7 is still the fastest architecture available, from what I know (not much). I know mine is somewhere around 1/5th of the speed of their fancy i7-3960X, but just the processor costs more than my whole computer. ;)
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Right now I have several things going on right now and I am using about 8gb of ram.
I had some AMD quads a few years ago, they were fine, in fact I used to be a really big AMD fan....but Intel is just kicking their ass at this point. I noticed a serious performance increase by going that route. So I stuck with it for now.
Right now my older PC which I am on right now still has a i7, but its several years old now, its a old 920. Probably 4 years old now. But my processor usage is very low, around 25% max
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Keep in mind newer 64bit software is necessary to maximize performance. Also if you use adobe products get a processor with higher individual core speeds over total number of cores. Photoshop only has a few multithreaded processes that take advantage of multiple cores in the processor and illustrator is even worse with almost nothing utilizing multiple cores.
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Anybody recommend a good laptop?
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how about a mac classic with 28mb of ram and the 6" screen. thats what i'm gettin..
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lol.
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...hey Gang, need to resurrect this thread if you dont mind. Im ready to bite the bullet and order something. Anyone have any renewed resources, or more importantly, some specific specs/parts that I need or should add? Pierre, I dont see many options on that link for the refurb now, maybe they dont have em? I am not at all savvy in the hardware dept, so any help at all is appreciated. The $500 sounded easy, but could go $800 or so if its worth it.
...thanks so much guys!!!
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If your good with slapping the whole thing together you will come out with a very nice system for $800.
i5/7 or maybe a 6+ core AMD at least 8 gigs of ram (16 wouldn't be that much more if you had a motherboard that supported 4 sticks).
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If your good with slapping the whole thing together you will come out with a very nice system for $800.
i5/7 or maybe a 6+ core AMD at least 8 gigs of ram (16 wouldn't be that much more if you had a motherboard that supported 4 sticks).
itxchange seems to be out now, we were just looking for a system for Dan. He ended up buying a similar system from ebay for $250. ITX has a 90 day warranty and I have found theirs stuff to work with very little issues (probably on a level of few percent based on several thousand pieces purchased).
I am biased (as an ex IBM Business partner), but even if I was not running a Thinkstation, I would be running a workstation rather than a regular PC. Not everybody agrees with me, and my information is a little dated, but I did do this for living for about 15 years. The biggest difference is going to be the amount of testing done to insure the highest possible level of up time and compatibility.
If shopping on ebay, look for a Thinkstation running at at least 3.0GHz in S or D flavor (S10, S20, D10 or D20). You will need to get a copy of Windows &* to install on top of Vista, but IBM does provide the instructions and drivers you'll need on their web site. There are no compatibility issues that I am aware of.
So you spend $250 on the system, add 4GB of RAM to bump it up to 8 and get a copy of Windows 7. You should be right around $500. On ITX they are probably about $100 more. I would rather buy there, but as you said, they seem to be out.
Make sure you get a Quadro FX video card. 1700 or 4600 seem to be available. 370-380 series will work too, but the 4 digit cards are better. Once you get the system, make sure you install the photoshop drivers as they will give you some additional features and make everything run faster.
pierre
*EDIT:Windows& should be Windows 7
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Pierre has made me a believer in Thinkstations. I will never buy a different system unless I need a cheap compy for shipping or something like that. For any place else in the shop, you cannot beat a Thinkstation...period. I built my computers for years, and I can tell you that the Thinkstation I bought for $600 is better than my $1500 custom build...by a lot.
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Pierre has made me a believer in Thinkstations. I will never buy a different system unless I need a cheap compy for shipping or something like that. For any place else in the shop, you cannot beat a Thinkstation...period. I built my computers for years, and I can tell you that the Thinkstation I bought for $600 is better than my $1500 custom build...by a lot.
Obviously as a PC repair/builder/consultant I'm gonna need some convincing of this.
Can you explain how that is? I've built many of machines and RARELY have any issues... on the other hand not many brand name systems that I haven't seen issues with. Be it cheap ram or just plain odd hardware configurations that mean you can't drop in a standard replacement PSU (which is an issue of itself that I need to replace so many PSU's like that).
I'm not closed to changing my mind, I just can't see how it beats a well planned out "DIY" PC with good quality hardware.
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The proble, here is many compare these think stations to either shitty manufacture computers or DUI computers with budget parts.
I am not saying a think station is a shitty computer, but I'd jump off a cliff if I had to use one daily compared to several of our rigs.
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And that is the problem, Thinkstations are built with better parts, pure and simple. If I built a new system with the same exact parts, I could expect to spend a couple grand. Heck, my thinkstation has an $800 graphics card.
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In what 2010? Lol sorry had to.
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There is clearly no sense in trying. All I am saying is an $800 system can't compete with a used $4-5,000 system. This is the reason Macs are generally better than PC's, they are built from better components.
But hey, I am sure that the company that worked on the special effects for Transformers 3 called you to use your system, oh wait, nevermind, I think they used Thinkstations.
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There is clearly no sense in trying. All I am saying is an $800 system can't compete with a used $4-5,000 system. This is the reason Macs are generally better than PC's, they are built from better components.
This was true many years ago. Today Macs use Intels, and graphics from companies that build the same style PC components. No offense at all, but your opinoin on that is somewhat dated. But yes if you go out and buy a 4-5k built PC by Dell or HP, and you go out and buy a Mac of the same value, I would take the Mac. That's not the PC's fault though, thats the builder. Dell/HP/etc all take short cuts IMO, I know this because I have had a few really high end ones in my day. Go build one yourself with parts you know are great, it will be as or more stable than a Mac. How do I know? I have a 27 inch iMac and a MacBook Pro, 2 iPhones, and 2 iPads. I wouldn't use any of them to do my work, they are NOT powerful enough. Period. Don't pretend otherwise. Will they do the work, sure, if you like to work slower.
But hey, I am sure that the company that worked on the special effects for Transformers 3 called you to use your system, oh wait, nevermind, I think they used Thinkstations.
LOL. Special Effects on movies is done on server farms, rendering terabytes of data to built those types of films. They are not using the think station that people are suggesting people should buy for $300 bucks LOL. That's like saying they use Chevy's to pull trailers and buying a Colorado to pull 20,000lbs. LOL. Dude, wow.
BTW here is some info about the rendering farms that did Transformers 2.... The render farm is much larger now though, doubling capacity each year roughly in size due to higher demand for detail/render time.
During the height of production, ILM dedicated 80 percent of its total rendering capacity to Transformers 2, one time even hitting 83 percent. “We broke all the ILM records,” Smith says. “Everyone else squeezed into 17 percent.” How much is that? ILM’s render farm has 5700 core processors, the newest of which are dual processor and quad cores (eight cores per blade), with up to 32 GB of memory per blade. In addition, the render farm can access the 2000 core processors in the artists’ workstations, which ups the total core processors to 7700. As for data storage, the studio’s data center currently has 500 TB online. Transformers 2 sucked up 154 TB, more than seven times the 20 TB needed for 2007′s Transformers.
http://www.studiodaily.com/2009/06/ilm-builds-the-bots-for-imax-shots-in-transformers-sequel/ (http://www.studiodaily.com/2009/06/ilm-builds-the-bots-for-imax-shots-in-transformers-sequel/)
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Pierre has made me a believer in Thinkstations. I will never buy a different system unless I need a cheap compy for shipping or something like that. For any place else in the shop, you cannot beat a Thinkstation...period. I built my computers for years, and I can tell you that the Thinkstation I bought for $600 is better than my $1500 custom build...by a lot.
Obviously as a PC repair/builder/consultant I'm gonna need some convincing of this.
Can you explain how that is? I've built many of machines and RARELY have any issues... on the other hand not many brand name systems that I haven't seen issues with. Be it cheap ram or just plain odd hardware configurations that mean you can't drop in a standard replacement PSU (which is an issue of itself that I need to replace so many PSU's like that).
I'm not closed to changing my mind, I just can't see how it beats a well planned out "DIY" PC with good quality hardware.
As mentioned before, the MAIN difference is going to be in the amount of time spent insuring the compatibility. You can go and buy top of the line parts and put them together, but some of the drivers or possibly even hardware interrupts might be incompatible. Even worse, they might have sections of code that are incompatible and only throw an en error once a month. In workstations everything is analyzed and compatibility is guarantied to the highest extent possible. One of the reasons Macs are more stable than the PC's (other than the better operating system) is the fact that everything is running on their platform and has been thoroughly tested for compatibility.
Additionally, all the workstations are running ECC memory which stands for Error Correction & Checking. RAM contains two additional bits of information (in each byte) and unlike parity memory used on some systems, ECC will actually correct any false readings rather than serving you the incorrect value and notifying you that something is wrong. This in itself is worth the upgrade to workstation chipset.
Additionally, workstation chipsets are designed for higher data throughput rates than regular desktops and support processors with higher amounts of L2 and L3 cache. Same CPUs (like Intel Xeon) can run larger internal registers and have faster data transfer rates between the core and the cache. Workstation Chipsets also tend to have better communication with the video cards.
All of this translates into faster speed and more reliability. Obviously, as Brandt pointed out, dated technology get overpassed by our regular desktop stuff after some amount of time, but it does take few years and the reliability is still higher on the workstation than the DIY or or even name brand desktop PC.
The reason Thinkstations are the way to go is the fact that they depreciate fast and for very little money you can get something that just two years ago cost 10-20 times as much. Stuff returned off lease and going to ITXchange is coming from big companies in clean air conditioned environment with IT staff to support it and take care of it. These are systems that have been taken care of (companies spending $4k on the systems are usually doing high end work and ppl using them are getting paid a little more than minimum wage.) Almost all fo the workstations and servers purchased from ITX looked brand new on only occasionally had a scuff mark here and there. The insides were always dust free and in perfect condition.
So in the end, yes, my $2k video card is now selling for $250 or so. But I paid $570 for the system about two years back that has been working flawlessly and spent a fraction of what it would cost to build it now, let alone then. I have no less than 10 windows open at any time and very often 30-40. GB sized files in Photoshop zoom in smoothly, I can rotate the whole canvas, have a pixel grid when working on details all without any hiccups. All this for a fraction of what it would cost to build a similar new system with better reliability.
Convinced yet?
pierre
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There is clearly no sense in trying. All I am saying is an $800 system can't compete with a used $4-5,000 system. This is the reason Macs are generally better than PC's, they are built from better components.
But hey, I am sure that the company that worked on the special effects for Transformers 3 called you to use your system, oh wait, nevermind, I think they used Thinkstations.
Im sure i could dig out the Amiga 1000 that my dad paid $4,500 for back in the mid 80s
I will sell you the entire system plus a copy of Deluxe Paint for $800
:)
Joking aside - I could build a computer with workstation components that would equal the performance of a high end Mac. They essentially would have the same parts. The difference would be the price and the operating system.
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There is clearly no sense in trying. All I am saying is an $800 system can't compete with a used $4-5,000 system. This is the reason Macs are generally better than PC's, they are built from better components.
This was true many years ago. Today Macs use Intels, and graphics from companies that build the same style PC components. No offense at all, but your opinoin on that is somewhat dated. But yes if you go out and buy a 4-5k built PC by Dell or HP, and you go out and buy a Mac of the same value, I would take the Mac. That's not the PC's fault though, thats the builder. Dell/HP/etc all take short cuts IMO, I know this because I have had a few really high end ones in my day. Go build one yourself with parts you know are great, it will be as or more stable than a Mac. How do I know? I have a 27 inch iMac and a MacBook Pro, 2 iPhones, and 2 iPads. I wouldn't use any of them to do my work, they are NOT powerful enough. Period. Don't pretend otherwise. Will they do the work, sure, if you like to work slower.
But hey, I am sure that the company that worked on the special effects for Transformers 3 called you to use your system, oh wait, nevermind, I think they used Thinkstations.
LOL. Special Effects on movies is done on server farms, rendering terabytes of data to built those types of films. They are not using the think station that people are suggesting people should buy for $300 bucks LOL. That's like saying they use Chevy's to pull trailers and buying a Colorado to pull 20,000lbs. LOL. Dude, wow.
BTW here is some info about the rendering farms that did Transformers 2.... The render farm is much larger now though, doubling capacity each year roughly in size due to higher demand for detail/render time.
During the height of production, ILM dedicated 80 percent of its total rendering capacity to Transformers 2, one time even hitting 83 percent. “We broke all the ILM records,” Smith says. “Everyone else squeezed into 17 percent.” How much is that? ILM’s render farm has 5700 core processors, the newest of which are dual processor and quad cores (eight cores per blade), with up to 32 GB of memory per blade. In addition, the render farm can access the 2000 core processors in the artists’ workstations, which ups the total core processors to 7700. As for data storage, the studio’s data center currently has 500 TB online. Transformers 2 sucked up 154 TB, more than seven times the 20 TB needed for 2007′s Transformers.
[url]http://www.studiodaily.com/2009/06/ilm-builds-the-bots-for-imax-shots-in-transformers-sequel/[/url] ([url]http://www.studiodaily.com/2009/06/ilm-builds-the-bots-for-imax-shots-in-transformers-sequel/[/url])
your iMac is a desktop. It makes sense you would use something faster to do the work. I've had HP, Dell and IBM workstations and will take IBM over the others. I do think the Thinkstation reliability is on par with Mac if not better. Obviously, loading crap on it can make all that go away.
I see where you are coming from, and agree, you can get a lot of bang for the buck by building yourself. I used to design them, build them and support them for many years. In the end though, for 50% of what you spent on your system (or even less), I can get 90% of the performance and 120% of the reliability.
That is what makes them such a good deal!
pierre
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There is clearly no sense in trying. All I am saying is an $800 system can't compete with a used $4-5,000 system. This is the reason Macs are generally better than PC's, they are built from better components.
But hey, I am sure that the company that worked on the special effects for Transformers 3 called you to use your system, oh wait, nevermind, I think they used Thinkstations.
Im sure i could dig out the Amiga 1000 that my dad paid $4,500 for back in the mid 80s
I will sell you the entire system plus a copy of Deluxe Paint for $800
:)
Joking aside - I could build a computer with workstation components that would equal the performance of a high end Mac. They essentially would have the same parts. The difference would be the price and the operating system.
absolutely agreed, if you are going to build a system for work, use the workstation boards.
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There is clearly no sense in trying. All I am saying is an $800 system can't compete with a used $4-5,000 system. This is the reason Macs are generally better than PC's, they are built from better components.
This was true many years ago. Today Macs use Intels, and graphics from companies that build the same style PC components. No offense at all, but your opinoin on that is somewhat dated. But yes if you go out and buy a 4-5k built PC by Dell or HP, and you go out and buy a Mac of the same value, I would take the Mac. That's not the PC's fault though, thats the builder. Dell/HP/etc all take short cuts IMO, I know this because I have had a few really high end ones in my day. Go build one yourself with parts you know are great, it will be as or more stable than a Mac. How do I know? I have a 27 inch iMac and a MacBook Pro, 2 iPhones, and 2 iPads. I wouldn't use any of them to do my work, they are NOT powerful enough. Period. Don't pretend otherwise. Will they do the work, sure, if you like to work slower.
But hey, I am sure that the company that worked on the special effects for Transformers 3 called you to use your system, oh wait, nevermind, I think they used Thinkstations.
LOL. Special Effects on movies is done on server farms, rendering terabytes of data to built those types of films. They are not using the think station that people are suggesting people should buy for $300 bucks LOL. That's like saying they use Chevy's to pull trailers and buying a Colorado to pull 20,000lbs. LOL. Dude, wow.
BTW here is some info about the rendering farms that did Transformers 2.... The render farm is much larger now though, doubling capacity each year roughly in size due to higher demand for detail/render time.
During the height of production, ILM dedicated 80 percent of its total rendering capacity to Transformers 2, one time even hitting 83 percent. “We broke all the ILM records,” Smith says. “Everyone else squeezed into 17 percent.” How much is that? ILM’s render farm has 5700 core processors, the newest of which are dual processor and quad cores (eight cores per blade), with up to 32 GB of memory per blade. In addition, the render farm can access the 2000 core processors in the artists’ workstations, which ups the total core processors to 7700. As for data storage, the studio’s data center currently has 500 TB online. Transformers 2 sucked up 154 TB, more than seven times the 20 TB needed for 2007′s Transformers.
[url]http://www.studiodaily.com/2009/06/ilm-builds-the-bots-for-imax-shots-in-transformers-sequel/[/url] ([url]http://www.studiodaily.com/2009/06/ilm-builds-the-bots-for-imax-shots-in-transformers-sequel/[/url])
your iMac is a desktop. It makes sense you would use something faster to do the work. I've had HP, Dell and IBM workstations and will take IBM over the others. I do think the Thinkstation reliability is on par with Mac if not better. Obviously, loading crap on it can make all that go away.
I see where you are coming from, and agree, you can get a lot of bang for the buck by building yourself. I used to design them, build them and support them for many years. In the end though, for 50% of what you spent on your system (or even less), I can get 90% of the performance and 120% of the reliability.
That is what makes them such a good deal!
pierre
That is interesting claim. I have no stability issues. Computer is on 24/7/365. How much more reliable can you get, just curious. The last time I shut this computer down was to clean the fans off. I don't have any hanging apps, no crashing, haven't seen a blue screen in probably 10 years. Sorry but that's a fairly wild claim that you would presume to know what sort of stability I am having. This computer is only powered off for cleaning now and then and for power outages only if the UPS shuts it down. It is only restarted for forced updates for windows or anti virus. I guess if there is something more reliable than that I should rush out and get it. BTW I have 3 fully built computers here that run just like that every single day. I have built 100's of computers over my years, people often tell me they are the most stable machines they have ever had. Of course I force them to use quality parts....unlike mass manufactured crap that many manufactures stuff in their sub 1k machines.
I reviewed the specs of them, I didn't feel like they were a good deal for a designer at all...... They would have a place, but a powerhouse computer for a designer is certainly in no way on the horizon for those things.....
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That is interesting claim. I have no stability issues. Computer is on 24/7/365. How much more reliable can you get, just curious. The last time I shut this computer down was to clean the fans off. I don't have any hanging apps, no crashing, haven't seen a blue screen in probably 10 years. Sorry but that's a fairly wild claim that you would presume to know what sort of stability I am having. This computer is only powered off for cleaning now and then and for power outages only if the UPS shuts it down. It is only restarted for forced updates for windows or anti virus. I guess if there is something more reliable than that I should rush out and get it. BTW I have 3 fully built computers here that run just like that every single day. I have built 100's of computers over my years, people often tell me they are the most stable machines they have ever had. Of course I force them to use quality parts....unlike mass manufactured crap that many manufactures stuff in their sub 1k machines.
I reviewed the specs of them, I didn't feel like they were a good deal for a designer at all...... They would have a place, but a powerhouse computer for a designer is certainly in no way on the horizon for those things.....
as somebody who has built hundreds of computers you have the experience of which parts work well with others and will create least problems. Most ppl have built few and don't have the knowledge you have. They will not be able to pick as well or fine tune as you can.
and also agree, that they are not the powerhouses you can buy or build today. But they will run in stride everything you can throw at them in a screenprinting shop. Even if the hardware seems a little dated, remember, they are optimized for the type of work we need them for and the drivers are written specifically to improve the video performance and reliability.
In the end, as we agreed to disagree before, I like the Thinkstations, you prefer custom built. Both will do just fine. . .
pierre
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...love the debate and all, but can anyone help me out with maybe a place to order from, a definitive parts list, stuff like that? Many of you have said buy quality parts, but the problem is that I have NO idea what is and isnt. My background is press and screens, all the comps I have used up to this point have been off-the-shelf from big-box stores.
...to give you an idea, this is what I have been using for the last two years:
http://www.amazon.com/HP-Pavilion-DM3-1130US-13-3-Inch-Laptop/dp/B00318CG8C (http://www.amazon.com/HP-Pavilion-DM3-1130US-13-3-Inch-Laptop/dp/B00318CG8C)
...now, what I am looking for is something that will just...well, WORK FASTER. Illy and PS open painfully slow, even Corel gets hung up each move if there is a complicated contour, or if I import an Illy file that has high-node elements. You know what I mean? I guess $500-1k would be fine, and a TRUSTED refurb like Pierre mentioned would be okay too.
Oh Pierre, BTW, I did look on ebay, but there was still a lot of variation in price and specs. Again, I just dont know what exactly to look for, much less who to trust and how not to get ripped off
...sorry, I know im kind of asking you to give a man a fish instead of teaching a man to fish, but any help is GREATLY appreciated. I dont wanna hafta do this again for at least 3 years.
...Thanks again guys!!
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we just bought one from best buy yesterday,my motherboard friday afternoon in the other. what a nightmare this has been.
dell inspiron with 8gb memory, 1 tb hardrive,wireless, intel core i3 processor. came with a 21.5" hd monitor..out the door after tax for 527.00.. fast enough for me and the kids get to eat this week..
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That is interesting claim. I have no stability issues. Computer is on 24/7/365. How much more reliable can you get, just curious. The last time I shut this computer down was to clean the fans off. I don't have any hanging apps, no crashing, haven't seen a blue screen in probably 10 years. Sorry but that's a fairly wild claim that you would presume to know what sort of stability I am having. This computer is only powered off for cleaning now and then and for power outages only if the UPS shuts it down. It is only restarted for forced updates for windows or anti virus. I guess if there is something more reliable than that I should rush out and get it. BTW I have 3 fully built computers here that run just like that every single day. I have built 100's of computers over my years, people often tell me they are the most stable machines they have ever had. Of course I force them to use quality parts....unlike mass manufactured crap that many manufactures stuff in their sub 1k machines.
I reviewed the specs of them, I didn't feel like they were a good deal for a designer at all...... They would have a place, but a powerhouse computer for a designer is certainly in no way on the horizon for those things.....
as somebody who has built hundreds of computers you have the experience of which parts work well with others and will create least problems. Most ppl have built few and don't have the knowledge you have. They will not be able to pick as well or fine tune as you can.
and also agree, that they are not the powerhouses you can buy or build today. But they will run in stride everything you can throw at them in a screenprinting shop. Even if the hardware seems a little dated, remember, they are optimized for the type of work we need them for and the drivers are written specifically to improve the video performance and reliability.
In the end, as we agreed to disagree before, I like the Thinkstations, you prefer custom built. Both will do just fine. . .
pierre
No doubt about it, and id help any single one of you that wanted to build a computer. Hell for some of you id even put it together for you free just you cover shipping and all that and all parts. Building computers has been a big part of my life for a long time.
There is nothing wrong with the machine you are pushing (so hard), but I personally think its should be VERY clear to people that it is yes in fact very dated. You mention bus speed (it runs the same bus as a i7 boards from even 4 years ago just to give you a idea (I assume you are using a xeon 5160 roughly). The $2,000 video card you have in your machine is only around 200 bucks today. The Processor is not even on the list of high end processors on CPU benchmark site and its a really long list so that says something, 4mb cache vs 8mb on my proc, dual core vs quad core, and so on. The machine you talked about came with nearly no ram either. You can optimize all you want drivers, if they are slow they are still slow. I have no delay at all in video, no hang up in video, nothing. I have no idea what you think I am using over here but my 4 year old PC is still a rocket by even today's standards and the one I just built my employee Erik, smokes this thing. You are probably still using slow 3gbps 7,500rpm hard drives even in that machine. Sorry many but nothing about that machine screams performance by todays standards. You should now by now tech moves quick.
All I am getting at, is that its a mild at best machine and it is NOT a powerful machine by today's standards.
I think if you fix around on customer art then that machine would be great. If you intend to work with the machine all of the time hours on end, built it big, let it last for years and years and still be powerful. Look at what I did, I spent probably 1800 ball park 4 years ago and still today it's considered a high end machine. Had I bought a machine like you are suggesting (which would be out dated before I even bought it), it would then be 4 more years outdated by now. I mean by your same math you should be running on a precision oval or something. It just doesn't add up to me. Sorry.
We certainly disagree, the numbers dont lie.
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actually, you got some good benchmark software, we can test them? that would be fun.
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Wow, this turned into a big ol mess lol. I built my most recent machine on advice from friends/car club members who are engineers, programmers, etc. Basically, smarter than me and directed me to specific brands and parts to buy, so I did.
Put it together myself lol. "Building" computers is nothing more than turning a few screws and plugging in a few cables these days.
The biggest benefit in building your own system is price for performance, quality of parts, and NO BLOATWARE on a fresh OS install.
My advice, and this is the path I took, is to build it with current components that are no more than 6 months old. Doesn't have to be the newest processor on the street or the fastest hard drives necessarily. Shop prices, obviously one gen older processor will be much cheaper than the new gen i7 that came out this week.
Had to replace a case fan on my Dell desktop at the house, and it's less than 3 years old. I can't do Dell anymore, too many problems, qc issues etc.
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...love the debate and all, but can anyone help me out with maybe a place to order from, a definitive parts list, stuff like that? Many of you have said buy quality parts, but the problem is that I have NO idea what is and isnt. My background is press and screens, all the comps I have used up to this point have been off-the-shelf from big-box stores.
...to give you an idea, this is what I have been using for the last two years:
[url]http://www.amazon.com/HP-Pavilion-DM3-1130US-13-3-Inch-Laptop/dp/B00318CG8C[/url] ([url]http://www.amazon.com/HP-Pavilion-DM3-1130US-13-3-Inch-Laptop/dp/B00318CG8C[/url])
...now, what I am looking for is something that will just...well, WORK FASTER. Illy and PS open painfully slow, even Corel gets hung up each move if there is a complicated contour, or if I import an Illy file that has high-node elements. You know what I mean? I guess $500-1k would be fine, and a TRUSTED refurb like Pierre mentioned would be okay too.
Oh Pierre, BTW, I did look on ebay, but there was still a lot of variation in price and specs. Again, I just dont know what exactly to look for, much less who to trust and how not to get ripped off
...sorry, I know im kind of asking you to give a man a fish instead of teaching a man to fish, but any help is GREATLY appreciated. I dont wanna hafta do this again for at least 3 years.
...Thanks again guys!!
this one is an option:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lenovo-IBM-Thinkstation-S10-6483-Core-2-E6850-3ghz-4GB-146GB-SAS-FX4600-VistaB-/400293972693?pt=Desktop_PCs&hash=item5d33614ad5#ht_2057wt_763 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lenovo-IBM-Thinkstation-S10-6483-Core-2-E6850-3ghz-4GB-146GB-SAS-FX4600-VistaB-/400293972693?pt=Desktop_PCs&hash=item5d33614ad5#ht_2057wt_763)
$250 before shipping. You will need a copy of Windows 7 to install on it. Also, a little more RAM would be nice, but necessary to get going. This is exactly what I have and it is still running fine. 'should be good for few more years . . .
pierre
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Wow, this turned into a big ol mess lol. I built my most recent machine on advice from friends/car club members who are engineers, programmers, etc. Basically, smarter than me and directed me to specific brands and parts to buy, so I did.
Put it together myself lol. "Building" computers is nothing more than turning a few screws and plugging in a few cables these days.
The biggest benefit in building your own system is price for performance, quality of parts, and NO BLOATWARE on a fresh OS install.
My advice, and this is the path I took, is to build it with current components that are no more than 6 months old. Doesn't have to be the newest processor on the street or the fastest hard drives necessarily. Shop prices, obviously one gen older processor will be much cheaper than the new gen i7 that came out this week.
Had to replace a case fan on my Dell desktop at the house, and it's less than 3 years old. I can't do Dell anymore, too many problems, qc issues etc.
Exactly what I did basically. Except I did buy nearly the fastest Intel Processor you could buy at the time because I wanted something that would be future proof a good bit. ANYONE hear can build a computer with a little advice on components to go with. It is in NO way hard. If you can screen print, putting together parts in a PC is cake!
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...love the debate and all, but can anyone help me out with maybe a place to order from, a definitive parts list, stuff like that? Many of you have said buy quality parts, but the problem is that I have NO idea what is and isnt. My background is press and screens, all the comps I have used up to this point have been off-the-shelf from big-box stores.
...to give you an idea, this is what I have been using for the last two years:
[url]http://www.amazon.com/HP-Pavilion-DM3-1130US-13-3-Inch-Laptop/dp/B00318CG8C[/url] ([url]http://www.amazon.com/HP-Pavilion-DM3-1130US-13-3-Inch-Laptop/dp/B00318CG8C[/url])
...now, what I am looking for is something that will just...well, WORK FASTER. Illy and PS open painfully slow, even Corel gets hung up each move if there is a complicated contour, or if I import an Illy file that has high-node elements. You know what I mean? I guess $500-1k would be fine, and a TRUSTED refurb like Pierre mentioned would be okay too.
Oh Pierre, BTW, I did look on ebay, but there was still a lot of variation in price and specs. Again, I just dont know what exactly to look for, much less who to trust and how not to get ripped off
...sorry, I know im kind of asking you to give a man a fish instead of teaching a man to fish, but any help is GREATLY appreciated. I dont wanna hafta do this again for at least 3 years.
...Thanks again guys!!
this one is an option:
[url]http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lenovo-IBM-Thinkstation-S10-6483-Core-2-E6850-3ghz-4GB-146GB-SAS-FX4600-VistaB-/400293972693?pt=Desktop_PCs&hash=item5d33614ad5#ht_2057wt_763[/url] ([url]http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lenovo-IBM-Thinkstation-S10-6483-Core-2-E6850-3ghz-4GB-146GB-SAS-FX4600-VistaB-/400293972693?pt=Desktop_PCs&hash=item5d33614ad5#ht_2057wt_763[/url])
$250 before shipping. You will need a copy of Windows 7 to install on it. Also, a little more RAM would be nice, but necessary to get going. This is exactly what I have and it is still running fine. 'should be good for few more years . . .
pierre
Lenovo Thinkstation S10 PC
Type 648323U
CORE 2 DUO 3GHZ E6850 (I thought you said these came with Xeon procs?)
4GB RAM (go with a lot more, at least 8gb, IMO 12gb if it will hold it, what's the max on this box?).
146GB 15,000RPM SAS HARD DRIVE (Super small drive, going to be really tight on space if you dont add a second drive.)
DVDRW DRIVE
Nvidia Quadro FX4600 DUAL DVI Video Card (best spec in the box)
Card Reader
Vista Business LOADED WITH DRIVERS AND COA
UNITS MAY CONTAIN WEAR AND TEAR
$250 is a fine price for this machine, but IMO it needs upgrades just to use. Bigger or second hard drive, a lot more ram, the processor is pretty dated, not even sold on New Egg anymore that's how old it is. Thats just the basics. The Video is probably fine for now, but also a lot better out there.
Think of this computer like buying a brand new 2008 car that's been sitting on a lot and been marked down each year. That's basically the way id look at it. Some people will love that value. Others would probably want back up sensors, dual climate control, remote start, etc. LOL
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I bought that same one you just posted on and yes, I upgraded to 8gigs of ram and we put in my previous larger HD.
Still invested $about $400.00 total, with a 2 year ebay full warranty. I'm sure it will do what I need (as my older one did just that) but the Mother boards was fried due to a storm. So, my next purchase is a good PSU thingamabob.
My other choice was a $1100.00 unit that seemed to be pretty close. So, $400 or $1100? I took the $400 for obvious reasons.
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lenovo-IBM-Thinkstation-S10-6483-Core-2-E6850-3ghz-4GB-146GB-SAS-FX4600-VistaB-/400293972693?pt=Desktop_PCs&hash=item5d33614ad5#ht_2057wt_763 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lenovo-IBM-Thinkstation-S10-6483-Core-2-E6850-3ghz-4GB-146GB-SAS-FX4600-VistaB-/400293972693?pt=Desktop_PCs&hash=item5d33614ad5#ht_2057wt_763)
Looks like the linked rig maxes out at 8gb. BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO (I remember having 8gb of ram back in like 2006ish). LOL
PC3-8500 Ram also, slower than a lot of machines today.
Rockin' 24gb here of PC3-10666. 32gb PC3-12800 on my other rig.
These are differences that add up to a better experience. Some want to pay for it, some don't, but it is important to note the differences.
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yes, it is dated, that was never in dispute. That's why it is cheap. 250 for the system, 150 for the Windows and 80 for RAM will bring it up to much more than usable specs. It will be a reliable and plenty fast machine. Is your's faster? Yes it is. Is it $500? no it is not. Can you buy something comparable for that kind of money? I doubt it. In my eyes, this is a good value that will reliably perform everything one needs in a shop for next three to four years.
As far as the cars, I bought a used Audi as I thought I was getting more for the money. It is not for everyone though. To some ppl new Ford is a better choice than a used Audi. These are personal preferences.
the system on ebay is usable. For $500 it is a lot of bang for the buck. If there is more money available, an S20 would be newer and faster. I did not see any good deals on them right now. You could also look into an E30. It is an entry level workstation, and a new one with an on site warranty can be had for $750. While slightly slower, they are a fine choice too.
pierre
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and if you happen to be killing another Win 7 system, you can just use the license from that machine on the new one. Save some money.
I bought a used Camry because it was cheaper than a new Corolla...and it only had 5,000 miles on it.
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and if you happen to be killing another Win 7 system, you can just use the license from that machine on the new one. Save some money.
I bought a used Camry because it was cheaper than a new Corolla...and it only had 5,000 miles on it.
on a similar note, if you know anybody who works at Microsoft, Win 7 pro is $20 or so. If not, make sure you are buying an OEM (system builder) version, those are $139 at the local computer store (rather than double that for full retail copy). 'sure you could find them even cheaper. . .
pierre
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Pierre is right, a computer that is $500 that will do everything almost as fast as a $2000 is a better bet. There is no sense in having a super computer in this industry, we are not doing video or special effects. We are dealing in raster and vector images. It may take a few seconds less on a $2,000 rig, but guess what, it takes a long time for that to pay for itself. A long time. I would rather dump $1500 into something else that will make money faster. Like a used 7500 watt exposure unit that will cut our time from 7 minutes to under 1...and 2 screens at a time. Now we are talking serious coin.
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I will be having a used Mac Mini for sale. ;D
1.25 Ghz Power PC G4 :o
1GB DDR SDRAM. :o ::)
Slooooooow by has out lasted 2 new PC's. ;D ;D
By very very slooooow. :-[
ASKING PRICE IS $2000. It's a collectors item. :-X
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...now were gettin somewhere, thanks guys! So based on the specs of my current rig, will I see a difference? I guess more importantly, why? Which parts make the difference? I need some education in this area I suppose.
...Brandt, what would YOU do in this situation? What would you have built for the budget (500-1k)? And where is a good source? Bear in mind, the more hassle-free and out-of-the-box, the better, because clearly I have no idea what im doing in this arena.
...thanks guys, this places rules!
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YO@MK that`s a good point ;)
i spend 1200 bucks in a tower for gaming nice machine, also still have P4 3GHZ old pentium machine
with 256MB. video card almost 10 years old technology
I only see a small difference in performance between the two
when working in corel. although the new version is supposed to be able to take advantge of more resources
a 500 machine would do the job, just get a 64 bit machine
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the biggest thing that speeds us up around here is internet speed. A faster system would help with quoting and order writing. But it handles PS and corel with ease.
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...now were gettin somewhere, thanks guys! So based on the specs of my current rig, will I see a difference? I guess more importantly, why? Which parts make the difference? I need some education in this area I suppose.
...Brandt, what would YOU do in this situation? What would you have built for the budget (500-1k)? And where is a good source? Bear in mind, the more hassle-free and out-of-the-box, the better, because clearly I have no idea what im doing in this arena.
...thanks guys, this places rules!
If you had 1k budget I would spend it, the more you spend now the more relevant the computer will be for a longer time. I would buy the parts from Newegg.com
Out of the box? It wouldn't be, you'd have to assemble it. But it is in no way hard. If you can screen print you can easily build a computer. If you have zero idea, or zero open mind to figuring it out, I would not buy parts then and buy something already put together. What exactly are you going to use it for? Be specific and I will make some recommendations. What I mean by that is if you are mostly just doing email and checking customer files, then you dont need much, if you are creating art daily then you need more. Then it really matters how long you want it to be relevant.
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yes, it is dated, that was never in dispute. That's why it is cheap. 250 for the system, 150 for the Windows and 80 for RAM will bring it up to much more than usable specs.
Hmm, I am not sure where you come from or what you put on a computer but 146gb drive. That will never do for most screen printers. He will at the very least have to add a secondary hard drive and if he puts a lot of programs on his machine, or he will have to pick and choose what he installs so he will have somewhere to save new files?. Things get real tight on a drive that small.
He would need 500gb or more IMO since he mentioned he didn't want to do this again for awhile. He'd spend another $100 ball park on a drive like that roughly. This computer is already around $600 to be "usable". Hmm, by my math, id spend a few hundred more for something more powerful and has room for upgrades.
It will be a reliable and plenty fast machine. Is your's faster? Yes it is. Is it $500? no it is not. Can you buy something comparable for that kind of money? I doubt it. In my eyes, this is a good value that will reliably perform everything one needs in a shop for next three to four years.
I don't think its a bad value, but its wildly under powered compared to today's computers. Listen, this isn't a dick measuring contest but of course my machine is faster. It has drastically faster processor (4 cores with more cache and hyper threading vs 2 cores and half the cache), faster ram, more ram, faster hard drives (several of them), comparable video card (not as important as you are pushing it out to be), and so on. I think that computer you are linking out is perfect for SOME situations. In no way, shape or form, in 2012 would I recommend a computer a designer that maxs out at 8gb of ram and only has 146gb (before format) hard drive and uses a processor you can't even buy at the most common computer retailer in the world because it's so old. That's my stance, and its fair.
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Let's be fair here.
Yes, Pierre said "think Xeon" and this is FAR FAR FAR from that. Not sure how those wires got crossed but that could be looked at as some SERIOUS misleading.
But Brandt. Sure, 146gb is "small" but it's perfectly fine for an OS drive and it IS 15k RPM's... this is TWICE as fast as what you accused him of having in that system. Do you honestly suggest having a single 2TB 7200 RPM drive in a system would be better? I believe you only have a 10k RPM drive and it's your OS drive and you have other 7200 RPM drives for data and such. I got no beef with that hard drive... I put a SSD drive in the wife's monster... it's REALLY small... but it's only the OS drive. I want it to be super fast... and it is.
I think basically we have two fairly different scenarios.
$500 bucks... POSSIBLY the ebay PC maybe the better bang for buck and it's ESPECIALLY better for someone that doesn't want to pick up a screwdriver or glance at a manual to see where to plug some header cables in (all EXTREMELY easy btw).
Beyond that though... it is REALLY hard not to start dancing circles around these systems with some basic quality components for about 1k in a custom built system.
But fellas, try to keep a level head and stick to facts and be honest about those facts... I think both of you guys are kind of spreading it on a little thick in your own favor at times.
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also, 146 is fine if you have a server that stores all of your files. I have 2 1TB drives in my machine and love it, but I don't really need that anymore.
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Joking aside - I could build a computer with workstation components that would equal the performance of a high end Mac. They essentially would have the same parts. The difference would be the price and the operating system.
And technically you could make it a "hackintosh" and have nearly the EXACT same system for a fraction of the cost.
Let's face it... Macs are a good machine for the stated reasons (tested hardware... if you are able to control what goes in every pc then you can make it fit the OS better). BUT... they are hyper inflated cost wise. You are buying the name and the marketing hype and paying quite the premium on it.
If you want to walk in a store and buy a PC off the shelf it will be hard to do better than a Mac... granted, you just spent 3x what the other pc's in the store cost so you SHOULD get the best PC. If you brought that same money to me and put it down on my counter and said "This is my budget, build me a monster." I would build you an incredible machine that would rival the Mac, I'd make a decent profit and we would both go home happy.
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agreed, that the hard drive is small and additional capacity will be needed.
This is a good drive for the operating system and good enough to get started. Next step would be to add a data drive that can go inside or externally and another for backup.
As I often said before, the used computer factory stopped taking orders and they don't make any any more. You have to pick from what's available. If there is nothing there now, wait a little and try again.
pierre
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I did not say that all the thinkstations are Xeon processors, just that they can have it. This particular one did not.
I had a chance to look around a little bit and found this:
https://shop.itxchange.com/OA_HTML/xxtgeibeCCtdItemDetail.jsp?sitex=10020:22372:US&item=297098
S20, will support up to 48GB of RAM, comes with Win 7, 90 day warranty and bigger drive.
If it was my money, this is what I would be buying. One available, sitting in NC.
I would add some RAM as 4 will get you going, but more would be better.
pierre
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Let's be fair here.
Yes, Pierre said "think Xeon" and this is FAR FAR FAR from that. Not sure how those wires got crossed but that could be looked at as some SERIOUS misleading.
Exactly my point.
But Brandt. Sure, 146gb is "small" but it's perfectly fine for an OS drive and it IS 15k RPM's... this is TWICE as fast as what you accused him of having in that system.
Yes it is perfectly fine for a OS drive, however thats not how this machine is being "pimped". Some of these guys looking at it wouldn't understand that 146gb is NOT enough for anything other than OS and programs. You certainly couldn't use it for much of any storage of files. It's misleading is all. Also I haven't pointed out a weakness in drive speed since he listed it as being a 15krpm drive other than when he compared it to my system which runs SSD.
Do you honestly suggest having a single 2TB 7200 RPM drive in a system would be better?
Never said that, but as I have already pointed out 146gb is NOT enough for OS/Programs/Storage. How fast the drive is wont be important if you cant store any work on it? So they will either have to put a secondary larger drive in the machine or a larger 15krpm drive (if they want that speed), or SSD.
I believe you only have a 10k RPM drive and it's your OS drive and you have other 7200 RPM drives for data and such.
I have a SSD in my machine for OS and programs. I used to run a 10kRPM Vraptor, sucker slow as dirt compared to the SSD. My Data drives yes are WD Black 7200rpm drives.
I got no beef with that hard drive...
No beef either except its small, those that dont know the difference could assume it's enough for os/programs/storage of files, and its not. If someone doesn't say that then someone may end up with a big surprise since hard drive prices are pretty high right now.
I put a SSD drive in the wife's monster... it's REALLY small... but it's only the OS drive. I want it to be super fast... and it is.
SSD Rocks, nothing like it.
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also, 146 is fine if you have a server that stores all of your files. I have 2 1TB drives in my machine and love it, but I don't really need that anymore.
For sure, do you think many guys buying a budget system have a server though?
Just food for thought....
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I did not say that all the thinkstations are Xeon processors, just that they can have it. This particular one did not.
I had a chance to look around a little bit and found this:
https://shop.itxchange.com/OA_HTML/xxtgeibeCCtdItemDetail.jsp?sitex=10020:22372:US&item=297098
S20, will support up to 48GB of RAM, comes with Win 7, 90 day warranty and bigger drive.
If it was my money, this is what I would be buying. One available, sitting in NC.
I would add some RAM as 4 will get you going, but more would be better.
pierre
Much better computer over all.
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I did not say that all the thinkstations are Xeon processors, just that they can have it. This particular one did not.
I had a chance to look around a little bit and found this:
https://shop.itxchange.com/OA_HTML/xxtgeibeCCtdItemDetail.jsp?sitex=10020:22372:US&item=297098
S20, will support up to 48GB of RAM, comes with Win 7, 90 day warranty and bigger drive.
If it was my money, this is what I would be buying. One available, sitting in NC.
I would add some RAM as 4 will get you going, but more would be better.
pierre
Much better computer over all.
yes, I agree with you. Much more bang for the buck.
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I did not say that all the thinkstations are Xeon processors, just that they can have it. This particular one did not.
I had a chance to look around a little bit and found this:
https://shop.itxchange.com/OA_HTML/xxtgeibeCCtdItemDetail.jsp?sitex=10020:22372:US&item=297098
S20, will support up to 48GB of RAM, comes with Win 7, 90 day warranty and bigger drive.
If it was my money, this is what I would be buying. One available, sitting in NC.
I would add some RAM as 4 will get you going, but more would be better.
pierre
Much better computer over all.
yes, I agree with you. Much more bang for the buck.
Id recommend anyone buying it take it add a SSD as main drive, move the 500 to data drive, jump ram to 12 or 16gb, and you'd have a nice rig. But all of that probably puts you in a ball park of being able to build something at least as nice or nicer and not have to get something refurbished.
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NOTE if you decide for a custom built rig you don`t need to be an expert these days to do so.
you can get a computer magazine like pc world or maximum pc
they got step by step instructions for custom built machines for all kinds of budgets
actually maximum pc is the ticket, since they are more focused on hardware
good luck
Gabe
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http://www.tomshardware.com/system-configuration-recommendation-51.html (http://www.tomshardware.com/system-configuration-recommendation-51.html)
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Do you honestly suggest having a single 2TB 7200 RPM drive in a system would be better?
Never said that, but as I have already pointed out 146gb is NOT enough for OS/Programs/Storage. How fast the drive is wont be important if you cant store any work on it? So they will either have to put a secondary larger drive in the machine or a larger 15krpm drive (if they want that speed), or SSD.
But your "that drive is SUPER SMALL" and leaving it at that was also kind of misleading. It left it like "this wont' work, end of story" when the truth is that 15k drive would serve just about 95% of the people here very well as their OS drive... even on their current systems now. Granted, you are gonna shell out more money for another HD, but that doesn't change no matter what you do.
A 120gig SSD drive is over a hundred bucks alone... The 15k drives are $350 bucks new (not that I'd suggest that for anyone really).
It's hard to compare apples to apples with this systems... the CPU is super dated, the RAM is rather limited... but that HD is a smoking one for the price. I just didn't think it was fair (from either side) to choose where to poke holes while ignoring some of the facts around those "holes". Let's leave that kind of stuff up to Fox News. ;)
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WHAT ABOUT A 1986 MAC CLASSIC..?:)))
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WHAT ABOUT A 1986 MAC CLASSIC..?:)))
think different!
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Do you honestly suggest having a single 2TB 7200 RPM drive in a system would be better?
Never said that, but as I have already pointed out 146gb is NOT enough for OS/Programs/Storage. How fast the drive is wont be important if you cant store any work on it? So they will either have to put a secondary larger drive in the machine or a larger 15krpm drive (if they want that speed), or SSD.
But your "that drive is SUPER SMALL" and leaving it at that was also kind of misleading. It left it like "this wont' work, end of story" when the truth is that 15k drive would serve just about 95% of the people here very well as their OS drive... even on their current systems now. Granted, you are gonna shell out more money for another HD, but that doesn't change no matter what you do.
A 120gig SSD drive is over a hundred bucks alone... The 15k drives are $350 bucks new (not that I'd suggest that for anyone really).
It's hard to compare apples to apples with this systems... the CPU is super dated, the RAM is rather limited... but that HD is a smoking one for the price. I just didn't think it was fair (from either side) to choose where to poke holes while ignoring some of the facts around those "holes". Let's leave that kind of stuff up to Fox News. ;)
I've never mentioned the speed as a problem since it was posted what it was in the system. Size is the problem, a number of times now I've said that it would be fine for Os and programs... But that's about it. Leaves near nothing if any for storage. Maybe you missed those posts.
In fact page 4 the first reference to the system being linked out in question I reply exactly this....(copy/paste)
146GB 15,000RPM SAS HARD DRIVE (Super small drive, going to be really tight on space if you dont add a second drive.)
There is nothing at all false about that statement...
As far as SSD we both know those are faster than a 15krpm drive anyway.... So it can be $350 or $3500 for all I care, price means nothing.
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"going to be very tight on space if you don't add a second drive" is a very derogatory way of saying "it would be fine for OS and programs".
That is the point that I was speaking of.
My problem isn't what you were saying, it was the manner in which you were saying it in. You can't complain that Pierre is misleading or being disingenuous with his description of how great his $2k graphics card computer is for $250 bucks if you are going to follow up with similar language.
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"going to be very tight on space if you don't add a second drive" is a very derogatory way of saying "it would be fine for OS and programs".
That is the point that I was speaking of.
My problem isn't what you were saying, it was the manner in which you were saying it in. You can't complain that Pierre is misleading or being disingenuous with his description of how great his $2k graphics card computer is for $250 bucks if you are going to follow up with similar language.
My statement is true even for just OS/Programs. Some guys would struggle to get ALL their programs on a drive that small. So while you took it out of context the truth is my statement is accurate for some people. I know guys that fill up 2-300gig of software installs. Screen printers even. It's certainly not hard to fill up 100+. You know it, and I know it.
It would be "fine" for a lot of people, and not so fine for a lot of others. The idea was to point out its a small hard drive for those that know no better. Considering the average new computer is probably coming with 500-1000gigs many people may over look that spec and have bought in hook line and sinker to find out they need another drive.....
Facts are in this thread I have pointed out that the drive was small. The drive would work for some for OS/Programs only. A user would want to add or have additional storage solution for files. Some users will need a larger main drive and a larger data drive.