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screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: ZooCity on February 14, 2012, 11:50:42 PM
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This has been on my mind for awhile as I keep seeing decent looking American machines pop up. I know that some (many?) here have used these machines in the past prior to upgrading. Everytime I see one I consider doing the same. So I gotta ask for opinions and ask a few ?s if you all will oblige me here:
- Overall is it a good move to have one of these v. no auto and saving for a new one later would you say?
- Roller frames?
- Any major deal breakers to look out for?
- Would you say they are worth shipping on the whole?
I picked up a Tempo and Cameo as well as a Tex Air last year and they all seem like good, reliable machines with simple engineering though I have yet to run them in any serious capacity. My thoughts were why not automate next time I can free up 3-5k and at least save myself from manually printing a good chunk of our work? Interested to hear the thoughts of others on this notion, looking at it in hindsight.
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I am very familiar with the Centurian and it's got a special place in my heart. A newer (mid 90's to present) would be one of, if not the best options for an older used auto in my opinion. I would buy a mid or even early 90's centurian before I would buy any other auto on the market of the same year. They are absolute workhorses and they only lack the little things like squeegee and screen air locks, and they don't have tool less adjustments like changing the squeegee angle, but aside from that, they have way more features than similar aged presses and are on par with many early 2000's autos. They were ahead of their time no doubt about it. They are intimidating to work on but they are very simple, there are just so many electrical components but if you are somewhat handy with a multimeter, you can troubleshoot any issue with the right technician on the phone.
The multiprinter is similar to the centurian in engineering and build, they just don't have as many features. The centurian has a touch screen main control panel, at least the early 90's had them and the multiprinter is all knobs and toggle switches. I saw a very clean mulitprinter on DS yesterday, and if they took care of it like they cleaned it, it would be a great first auto.
The centurians have AC heads, squeegee pressure regulators, they are very strong when it comes to doing most any type of printing. The only drawbacks I can say about them is the lack of central off contact and lack of tool less print setting changes. You have to use an allen wrench to change squeegee angle but you get really fast at doing that and I always had that wrench on me so I didn't have to search for it and waste time. Changing the individual print head off contact takes a wrench but it's done fairly quickly, you just have to change each head when going back and forth from shirts to sweats or totes. Changing pallets also takes a wrench and is a lot more time consuming than today's presses.
I think if you had the "want to" you could retro-fit the print head to tool less with some kip levers installed on the squeegee bar and you could also install screen locks and maybe even squeegee and floodbar locks.
I think that if you are going to buy an older used auto, the centurian would be a fantastic press, and the multiprinter a close second. I trust those machines and know what they can do and they can do it all for a very long time. They are reliable as can be and with a multimeter in hand they are easy to fix.
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I'm in the same situation Chris... I keep seeing those presses on DS and thinking that they might not be a bad move.
Good topic, thanks for the reply Alan!
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I wholeheartedly advocate automating as soon as you have the space and I recommend American presses
as an inexpensive option. I had an Auto-Rototex 2 and loved it. Good solid machine capable of producing
high quality work. They just aren't fun to setup jobs on due to the reasons Alan described. I also
think a little ingenuity could go a long way in making adjustments easier.
Only weak spot on these that I know of is the Geneva indexer. Watch it as the press indexes and look
for any loseness or stuttering. Not a deal breaker, as they can be welded etc, but can require a bit of work.
The forces there are pretty extreme.
They do tend to have larger print areas than modern presses, which equates to larger footprints. Shipping
these beasts could be a bit extreme. You would want to see the press in action before purchasing so I would
be wary of any long distance deals. That said, these things are all over the country so it would be likely you
could find one near you.
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Thanks guys.
I started with an American Rototex manual and I agree on the "needs a wrench for everything" design being a bit of a pain. But a lot of this can be easily modified as suggested with kip levers and whatnot. I had used wingnuts rather than hex nuts on my platen mount for example for quicker platen adjustments. I'm not overly concerned about no air locks on the squeegee and floods, I don't mind the U clamps so far at all, and screen locks could be added easily it's true.
The other side of that coin is that, having used pretty much all the different manual press designs over these years, I now have a lot more respect for a press that may be hard to adjust on the fly but holds it's ground. The more I consider it, the less necessary I see many of the adjustment features provided you have an attentive pre-press regimen. In the end this saves time when you aren't messing with every little adjustment every time you put a job on press. And besides, we'd still have the manual for the odd placements and jobs that aren't worth re-setting the auto for.
As an example, I've come around to deciding that I never want a manual press with the knob style off-contact adjustment again. None of them hold it consistently without walking and it wastes time on press. I think a tall screen clamp with a shim system would be superior. You parallel your press at the lowest o.c. setting you'll ever use and use a set of 4-5 graduated shims under the screen to raise o.c. The shims could have a simple clip system so as not to be a pain. Done. No messing around with o.c. and camber adjustments. If the head is out of plane then you stop and get the wrenches and set it straight. Come to think of it, that aforementioned Roto had no micros, no o.c. adjustment and nothing that didn't use a wrench. Even learning on it, it never once went out of reg on a single job. I can't say that about any other model out there that I've used. But anyways....
I have space but not enough for some of the American machines I've inquired about over the last year. Some of these truly are monsters. But everyone wants that bigger image area right?
Forgot to ask- is there any possible way to use a pre-reg like the pin-lock on these? I would imagine a simple mitering out of the screen holders would do it.
I think I'm going to start planning for one of these machines and sit tight until one pops up close enough to drive to. Any other caveats, I'd love to hear 'em.
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They are ready to go with the newman pin lock system, well, at least our centurian was. I bet that the older ones would need some adjustments or some cutting to accommodate the triloc jig.
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Crazy.. the Centurian was the first auto press I ever used.. and also the first auto that got me fired.. HAHA!!
I'd buy one had I the place to put it. Put some rollers in there and I'm sure it would outperform almost any machine from the 90's with a little tlc, a tool box and small machine shop out back to fabricate some upgrades.
They're tanks for sure. Will cost a pretty penny in freight as each head is independent of the base and then dis/assembly.. wrench for everything holds true there as well. where you place it has to be pretty level to begin with and no wooden or 2nd floor installs as well. The forces generated on index are insane as well as when the heads come down. This was a mans machines built by men with plenty of common sense on their minds. If you hesitated or got in the wrong place at the wrong time.. major injury ensued. The machine I stared on, was gotten from a company that went under when the operator zigged rather than zagged and got bent in two, breaking her back and paralyzed her from the chest down.
As for a workhorse.. in 91 when I started pulling shirts off, it had one speed.. 700 shirts an hour. The owner maintained it like a watch as it was all chain driven. Loudest press I've ever worked on.. an 8 color full size print was like listening to a symphony of whirs and buzz's and clicks and clacks.
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Wow John. Good stories. Now I'm scared of the press. :o
So how did you get fired 'cause of the Centurian?
Oh and we do have wood floors but 1st level and also built by men in the days of manliness and old growth timber. We have a smaller, pickup truck height dock and overhead door. I'll have to start doing some planning on this.
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old growth timber
Zoo,
Where are you at? The only time I have heard people talking about old growth wood is people from Humboldt California.
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Missoula, Montana
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Missoula, Montana
BTW, I checked out the geotag on a pic you sent me and that looks like an AWESOME town you live in there. Must be quite a few on clear days and must look cool driving in and out of town.
Also, I am curious about the firing myself... I'm with you though Zoo... that press sounds scary now! Still extremely tempting giving the prices of those guys.
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old growth timber
Zoo,
Where are you at? The only time I have heard people talking about old growth wood is people from Humboldt California.
Or the northeast.. I made this from long leaf northern pine I reclaimed from the mill the old wood shop was located in. We counted some rings and got some material in the 350 year old range. I've never smelled wood as good as that. Even being so old, it still gummed up my tooling and had to be stickered when I planked that timber.
As for the firing.. I was the unloader when the other guy got yelled at and quit and didn't know about lint balls yet.
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Resurrecting this thread!
I've struggled and lost the battle so far trying to print TW 5500 series (a very fast drying, gnarly, but awesome flatstock ink) with our American Tempo for the simple reason that you cannot set the machine to flood at rest. No flood at rest + Montana's lack of humidity = instant dry in.
Now, I have big ass swamp cooler that I picked up for the shop and I our textile WB inks are nowhere even close to being as squirrelly as the TW. I'm sure the Texcharge, CCI and Matsui inks could be ok without flooding at rest provided we were moving quickly, which we do anyway, and we could always test print the head and stop it or jog it until it's flooded for breaks or stoppages... but as I still see these darn American textile machines going for beans (and now one within driving distance) I need to ask:
Can you print WB on these? Or am I crazy to even try it?
Talking about what looks like a Multiprinter with no "squeegeelizers".
If the action is identical to the tempo, and the heads look identical to me, I don't feel like it's an option. There's no way to modify it to avoid the screen being wide open at rest that I can imagine and I've thought about it pretty hard, it's just part of the engineering.
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We have a M&M Xpress, a step between the multi printer and the centurian, and we run rollers, with WB and Discharge all day on it!
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We have a M&M Xpress, a step between the multi printer and the centurian, and we run rollers, with WB and Discharge all day on it!
Can it flood at rest? pics?
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We have a M&M Xpress, a step between the multi printer and the centurian, and we run rollers, with WB and Discharge all day on it!
Can it flood at rest? pics?
i'm not sure what that means, but it can stay flooded if you choose.
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Well, the multi's and our Tempo have this motion where the flood is in the back when they are in the up position, it floods on the way down, prints and then lifts back up with the screen un-flooded. That's the big issue I have is the screens not being flooded.
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This video is long but you can see what I'm talking about here with the cycles of the print heads. They rest in that up position with the screen open, un-flooded. Unless there's a feature to get it to half cycle on the head it could be a no-go for wb. Then again getting it to half cycle might not be impossible so long as it holds the screen high enough above the platen.
http://youtu.be/C3_THyNjh8Y (http://youtu.be/C3_THyNjh8Y)
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I found this video of someone printing discharge on one.
http://youtu.be/OdbGJEAeTGs (http://youtu.be/OdbGJEAeTGs)
It appears they have it resting at the flood somehow. I actually, I think, found the same press on digitsmiths old posts when I was hunting for pictures of the controls:
http://www.digitsmith.com/jumbo-american-multiprinter-15684.html (http://www.digitsmith.com/jumbo-american-multiprinter-15684.html)
enemybender? I recognize Patt Finn there. Anyways, I emailed the dude via digitsmith to see if he might be down to show me the ways. My guess is you just flip something around in there and you can get away with it because it's high enough over the platens as they index.
I troubleshot doing this with the Tempo and no dice since there would be no room to load the flatstock with the head down that far but it would be a non-issue on the multi with open stations for loading/unloading.
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I was able to set the heads on my Rototex 2 to stop in the flooded position. They (and I think the Multiprinters?)
use a cam with a roller switch to determine flood/squeegee position. It was as simple is loosening the
cam set screw and rotating until it was where I wanted it.
I bet you could do it on the Tempo, but there's that whole loading space issue. i am a bit surprised
that it's not possible though. Refresh my memory, are the screen up/down and carriage movement
controlled by one attachment from the motor?
I don't see why you couldn't print posters with one of these. I've heard of it being done. Single color only of course.
Not sure I would buy one (and the space it takes up) just for posters though.
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On our old Filbar flat stock printer, if we wanted to flood so we can go to the head, then we'd kill the power before it started the print stroke. Barbaric, but perfectly effective.
Steve
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Mixing up a couple threads here, one with the Tempo and one with these Arrow Multiprinters but same fundamentals.
Refresh my memory, are the screen up/down and carriage movement
controlled by one attachment from the motor?
I don't see why you couldn't print posters with one of these. I've heard of it being done. Single color only of course.
Not sure I would buy one (and the space it takes up) just for posters though.
I believe they are controlled by one attachment. It's really obvious on old cameos but I think the same is true on the tempo, I could be wrong.
I got them for doing all variety of flatstock, including plastisol transfers but it's a no-go with the TW 5500 series in this climate. That ink needs to be flooded at rest. Textile WB inks are way more forgiving here.
eb, why single color only? The Tempo looks like it would hold excellent registration with the front gate setup the way it is.
Steve, we tried something similar with the Tempo, using the safety cage but it's too low at flood to get your hands under there and load a piece of stock.
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I was referring to single color on the Centurians or Rototexes. Is that
what you were asking about? Am I lost here? Where's my coffee cup?
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Haha. We have a Tempo and a Cameo in the house right now.
I'm looking at buying an American Arrow Multi Printer 6/8.
I was seeing about setting the heads to flood at rest on the Arrow, which like you said, is doable by adjusting the cam.
We could probably do the same thing on the Tempo but no room for loading stock. The trick works on the Arrow because it's still hovering above the platens just enough that they can swing around under there.
Hope that makes more sense. I need more coffee too. Thought it would be beer-thirty by now but not even close.
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Perfectly clear, and correct on the Arrow. I just can't believe
the Tempo can't do it.
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Perfectly clear, and correct on the Arrow. I just can't believe
the Tempo can't do it.
haha. I think it can, the heads are almost identical to the arrow. But that mechanical motion doesn't allow for a flood with the clamshell in the up position, which would be weird and sloppy anyhow, dragging ink uphill. I might be able to angle the flood just right and use oversized screens, place images very far back on the screen, so that the image is flooded but the screen is only halfway down, leaving room to load/unload. Have to experiment a little more.
I heard back in the day that the solvent inks could be slowed with little or no limitations so this wasn't an issue but I wonder how people worked with this. No matter how crazy fast I work on the tempo black TW 5500 locks into the screen. It barely makes through a test print before dry in. No real issues on the manual though where I'm flooding instantly after print.
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They had waterbased back then, and some of the solvent inks are worse for drying in than the TW is.
That's what I mean by I can't believe it won't stay in the flooded position with the screen up.
Maybe just keep it on zero dwell and uhhh, move real quick. Real quick.
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They had waterbased back then, and some of the solvent inks are worse for drying in than the TW is.
That's what I mean by I can't believe it won't stay in the flooded position with the screen up.
Maybe just keep it on zero dwell and uhhh, move real quick. Real quick.
Yeah, I think it's weird too. My understanding from hearsay is that you could mess with solvent inks to retard them far more than you can with WB...and let's be frank, WB is just a water bourne glycerin solvent ink.
Tried moving super fast and no dice. Maybe with heavy humidifying right next to the press (I don't dry on racks but force dry through the texair with the air warmed to around 100º F) and switching over to speedball or the like but, dammit, I love that TW flat and can hand print it just fine.
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Is it common that shirt dryers can run at ~100º? I was thinking about this a while ago because I thought it would be cool use for sticker printing with solvent inks so I could do a quick turnaround to the next color. The inks take about 15 minutes to dry on vinyl in 70º temps, but less than a minute at 115º I think.
Speaking of retarding inks, I use 9700 series nazdar inks and it has to be over 80º before I use retarder. When I was first starting out, I decided that I needed to use retarder because I wasn't fast enough at pulling at the time. I swear, the ink took forever to dry and it was nowhere near the upper limit on percent thinner!
I have a lawson geniette that I have started to restore to working condition. It works with a cam system, which is similar to the cameos and tempos from what I have heard. It does the same non-flood thing as well, but the cycle is just controlled by a microswitch that is triggered by a ring on the driveshaft so everytime the shaft makes a full turn, it trips the relay or whatever it is and stops the head. I haven't done it yet, but I am certain that I can get it to stay flooded if I just turn that ring 180º.
I am really glad to find this thread as I am also thinking of buying an arrow multiprinter. Am I correct that the micros adjust the screen frame from the back of the head? What size print area does an 8/6 have?
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Stu,
I think any conveyor dryer should be able to run fairly low and then you could speed up the belt. The only reason I warm our air is to run the belt a little faster when I'm really moving on hand printing, it really the airflow that gets the job done.
Word of caution- I hear that some vinyl inks do not take well to being force dried. I have no experience with these however.
I'm wondering now if I can't get the Tempo to flood at half down. I guess you would have to get it to start it's flood cycle on the chopper but halve the cycle that lowers the screen and head down. Then teach it to stop right before switching over the carriage from flood to print. Or you could just hit the safety bar but if you forget to do that you'll be printing air and probably splashing ink all over.
I agree that anything should be 'retardable' to the point where it takes all day to dry and never locks into the screen but I've had no luck thinning with both water, retarder and even slow retarder to the max on these TW inks. Fine for hand prints, but even then it will start to lock in on me from time to time.
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Word of caution- I hear that some vinyl inks do not take well to being force dried. I have no experience with these however.
Any vinyl ink I've used has been fine with heat drying, usually it's the media being printed that determines max temp, not the vinyl ink. Depending on the size of the sheet good you're printing, you do need to be careful about letting it cool down before laying on subsequent colours or the residual heat can cause the sheet to grow enough to cause registration problems, for some big sheet goods we would rack them after heat drying to cool them down to room temp, but then we were printing some pretty big stuff.
Of course the flip side is heating sheet goods up to the point that some will shrink if they are not heat stabilized. Gotta watch that too.
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The datasheet for the 9700 series has a note about forced drying. I can't recall the specifics off the top of my head, but it would be neat to just have prints stack up after being printed. It would have to be a pretty long chamber come to think of it.
I just thought of another thing. I sent an email, but no response yet, so… What is the footprint of an arrow multiprinter 8/6? Come to think of it, I forgot to ask in the email anyway.
I also have issues with waterbased locking in the screen, the only time I get bad haze is from waterbased inks. I can wash out the solvent ink no problem and with a little work, even when it's dried.
EDIT: Sent another email with my number in it, got a call an hour later. I wish people wouldbe specific how they would like to be contacted. Whatever, The guy was cool and was able to answer al of my questions off the top of his head.
If anyone is curious, the specs that he gave me on the 6/8 arrow multiprinter was a width of 14', each head is 30"x4' and it takes 25x36 screens. He figures that it has enough pressure to go wider, we shall see I guess. I have wider screens that are 36" the short side. Now I just need to find out the power requirements. I am guessing it is 220 single phase.
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Force drying vinyl and most solvent inks can "skin" the top layer sealing in the solvent beneath, and never fully drying.
Doable, but be careful.
Multiprinter should have no problem printing wider in terms of pressure, but watch for the head flexing.
Is it the version with the lock in pallet tips and heads?
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We printed with Inktech (http://www.inktech-international.com) vinyl inks, which were the old Ink Dezyne formulations after they acquired by Nazdar, this was for nameplate and membrane switch graphics onto sticker stock, polyester and polycarbonate. Never ever had problems with curing, they couldn't be simpler. We used conveyor drying 95% of the time, and usually used stack-catchers at the end of the oven. A sniff test was standard, if the vinyl solvent smell was gone, they were good to stack, as long as they weren't too hot or on stock that wasn't hard coated and needed slip-sheeting for display windows and the like. We cured them up to 200ºF depending on the sheet stocks heat tolerance. Occasionally for large flood coatings of background colours or temp sensitive sheet stocks you really need a drying rack on hand.
I still print Inktech Vinyl inks onto Avery A-6 a-9 vinyl and contour cut it for bullet-proof outdoor stickers. Vinyl ink on vinyl stock make great bumper stickers and window decals.
With Nazdars expertize in inks I would expect their vinyl inks to be just as good or better.
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Hey Stu, I wonder if we are talking about the exact same press?
That's about right on the specs. The issue with these machines, to me at least, is they have way too big a footprint. We can fit up to 15' diam in our space but no bigger which rules out pretty much all Centurians, Arrow Multi Printers and the like that are larger than 6/8.
I think with force drying the vinyl inks you're probably cool if it's low/slow enough. If you don't get carried away with heat and speed and the dryer has lots of air flow it's only expediting the drying process in my mind. That skinning issue makes sense as to why I heard this, I bet folks tend to run to hot and fast or maybe too much deposit. I found that, with wb, force drying in the Vastex = extremely long final dry time on the prints. I bet it was doing the same skinning thing more or less and trapping moisture in so it took longer to release from the prints.
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It's quite possible we are talking about the same one. Is it in bellevue? There's a guy couple of miles from me that has one for sale, but will only sell it as part of a giant package. I have room for the press, but fitting two dryers, two manuals, a small cameo, a large format clamshell, one arm squeegee table, a 7' tall vacuum frame and whole load of other stuff just isn't in the cards for me. In fact, I wonder what kind of person would buy a large shop's worth of stuff all at once. Unless you had buyers lined up, it would end up costing a bit just to store.
Regarding skinning, I have found that I can't even put too thick of a layer of ink on the vinyl or it will scratch off over time. Not right away, much to my surprise. At least that is what I think is going on.
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I bought a lot of gear from a shop least year that initially had two items I wanted and I just wound up taking it all because the price was right. That's how we got the Tempo and Cameo. I hear ya on the floor space...there's never enough.
Are you using the Cameo with WB inks for flatstock at all?
FYI, you can rig up Cameos to be single color shirt printers. Either DIY, I think Sbrem mentioned this in the past?, or AWT/GPI has a drop-in kit for $650. I'm going to try it with ours if we don't wind up with an multi color auto real soon.
Also, regarding this flooding business on the Tempo I spoke with Jim at AWT earlier, who was super helpful and knowledgable and he is of the same opinion as I that no, you can't get the Tempo to flood at rest and still load stock. The newer AWT presses like the micro have this option on the front panel and they simply lower the screen a few inches and flood.
I was checking out they're Screen-Eze I think it's called, a manual flatstock printer with parallel lift and side clamps as that would be way better suited to what I'm doing here- serigraphs with a lot of split fountains and the like. It's $1700-2000 new, depending on format size which is hard to justify as the gig posters aren't paying the bills around here.
One more note for posterity, it doesn't appear that GPI offers a retrofit kit for the upgrading heads to squeegelizers. This guy thought it would be cost prohibitive on a multi-color press and that's probably why it's not offered. Anyone ever upgraded a Tempo or Arrow Multi with the squeegelizers?
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I go back and forth with the WB and Solvents. I really like the way that the solvents behave, but don't like the VOC's. I keep trying the WB inks, and every time I get a little better, but I still use solvent most of the time. Even though I don't have a cameo/tempo, my semi auto does the same open on dry cycle.
I originally wanted to buy a cameo from the guy with a ton of equipment as of right now. He had a list of each items value, as he saw it and it added up to quite a bit to be honest, 44k to be exact and he is only asking 8k. I sent him an email asking to buy the cameo for the price listed in the perceived value breakdown and no response. I suppose he wants to sell it all or nothing, but at least say so in the ad or email me back to tell me no.
As far as automated presses go, I only have a geniette that is ok for one color and large format multicolor. I mostly hand pull but would like to go bigger and registration on a press with no micros is becoming a gigantic pain.
I only do flatstock as of now. If I got the multiprinter, it would be to do flat stock and to start getting into shirts. The guy says that he will sell one head if I want, but I would like to take the whole thing if I can swing it. I mostly was interested initially because of the micros. I am so desperate to stop having to register with a stick. Not that I can't do it, I once did a six color print butt registered on accident. I forgot to trap anything.
So I take it it isn't the same multiprinter? Anyone interested in going in on buying a couple of shops worth of equipment with me?
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A Cameo 30 or 38 is on my wish list..... ;D
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A Cameo 30 or 38 is on my wish list..... ;D
Want ours if I don't turn it into a one-banger shirt printer? We're in Western, MT. I'll cut you a deal mang.
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Is it a 30 or 38?
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Cameo's are great, my only complaint is stroke length adjustment.
Adjusting the cam and throw arm for stroke length is a PITA. DC
motors and proximity sensors is the bees knees.
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Oh, and Zoo, if Inkworks wants your Cameo do you want my Eclipse?
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Oh, and Zoo, if Inkworks wants your Cameo do you want my Eclipse?
Ohhh, yeah maybe. I'd have to sell off the two clams I have to make some space. chris - zoocityapparel.com, shoot me details.
The Tempo we have just has a crank on the side for back stroke length adjust, pretty straight ahead. Haven't ran the Cameo yet so no clue there but I notice you need wrench to adjust flood and blade height/pressure. I think the Cameos are meant to be setup once and that's where you leave it, every job.
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Put it here, anyone that's interested can contact me.
Eclipse 1
30x40 print area
Couple sets of squeegee's/floods
Operationally fine, has seen better days aesthetically speaking,
probably needs $30 in various knobs and levers to be back to perfect.
Mods, if this needs to go to the classifieds, just let me know.
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Our Cameo has a 22x30 vac area. Not sure on model as it did not come with it's back panel. It's the more worn looking of the two presses I picked up.
So I just went out there to take a look at it and run it for sec and lo and effing behold - I think I can load stock with it flooded. The action is different from the Tempo. I lose a little bit up front on the screen but not much more than you already lose to the carriage at all- about 6" up front to have it stop where I want it. I can just use bigger than needed screens and set the stroke length to the max on the back side. Speaking of, how do you adjust the back stroke length on a Cameo?
I was about to tell you to make an offer on the Cameo Inkworks but, interested in a 25x38 Tempo instead?