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screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: Screened Gear on February 15, 2012, 01:34:47 AM
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Hey guys,
So this is the third AUTO WARS post. This one is all about your Squeegees and Flood Bars. What do they look like, how do they go on the press and how do you adjust them. If you have an auto press show us your squeegees and floods, please make a video. The more videos we can get the better, even if your press is exactly like another, we want to see it. Thanks for everyone that is making the videos. I also want to thank everyone for being so positive about these posts. I think we are all learning alot.
Feel free to comment on the videos and ask questions.
Thanks,
Jon
UPDATE
These are the AUTO WARS so far
AUTO WARS 1 - Micro Registration
http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,2830.0.html (http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,2830.0.html)
AUTO WARS 2 - Screen Holders
http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,2868.0.html (http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,2868.0.html)
AUTO WARS 3 - Squeegees & Flood Bars
http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,2914.0.html (http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,2914.0.html)
AUTO WARS 4 - Pallets
http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,3018.0.html (http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,3018.0.html)
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This is my MHM e-type
MHM e type squeegees (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PUb-fiY-Os#)
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Very nice. I like the self leveling squeegee system, I've recently come around on it. I used to not like it but there is no doubt behind it's theory and it works great when you have a calibrated press which I'm sure you do.
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Nice..
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Very nice. I like the self leveling squeegee system, I've recently come around on it. I used to not like it but there is no doubt behind it's theory and it works great when you have a calibrated press which I'm sure you do.
Alan,
To be honest with you I would have never known that is why it did that unless I asked someone. It does make a lot of sense. The pallets on a MHM are also just connected in the middle of the pallet so they work as a system. The more I figure out on this thing the more I am impresses with the engineering that went into it. That is a big part of why I started this AUTO WARS series. I wanted to see how other presses work so I can compare it to mine. Not that is matters if another press does something better. It’s not like I am going to sell mine and get another any time soon. But it is nice to know how your press stacks up so when time comes to get another press you know what you’re options are. Now let’s see that RPM’s Squeegees and Floods.
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I'll have a video up later this afternoon. Our's is just the basic M&R setup, no real twists to it except the digital control over squeegee pressure.
I've got some testing to do on our new triloc system. I finally got it set up this morning and have 2 little 2 color jobs with an underbase to try it out. I made a tiny little adjustment to bypass the carrier sheets which I know isn't advised but I'm always looking for an edge.
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I made a tiny little adjustment to bypass the carrier sheets which I know isn't advised but I'm always looking for an edge.
I would Realy like to see a Vid of the changes you made.
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I made a tiny little adjustment to bypass the carrier sheets which I know isn't advised but I'm always looking for an edge.
I would Realy like to see a Vid of the changes you made.
If it works properly then I'll do it. It's not proven yet, I've got some testing to do.
Ok, here's my video(s), I had to do an extra one because I forgot to go over the angle changing and readout.
RPM Squeegee/Floodbar Assembly (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkyRoeQzdyY#ws)
RPM Squeegee/Floodbar Assembly 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfRWXG2L8zQ#ws)
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Nice video Alan. I was wondering how the squeegees worked on your press. You said it’s the same as the M&R? That looks simple to use. I also like the digital read out. You can really dial it in that way, maybe a little of a over kill but nice to know the number exactly. I was wondering. How much of the squeegee sticks out of your holder? I know on my press I don't have nearing the same amount of squeegee coming out. (My squeegee blade goes further into the holder) Can you measure that for me?
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I guess I meant it's similar to M&R in they use the same chopper bars and hold the same squeegees and floodbars. Their are differences in the assembly as a whole but it's a chopper style where the sq. and fb's are interchangeable. The rubber comes out 1-1/8". Different duro squeegees are going to act a little differently from your press to mine if there is that much difference in how much rubber is coming out of the holder. I know the tip of an 80 is always an 80 but my blade will bend significantly more and change the shear action. That's good to know because I may swear by a 70 duro blade and they might not be worth a damn on another squeegee holder and print more like an 80.
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I guess I meant it's similar to M&R in they use the same chopper bars and hold the same squeegees and floodbars. Their are differences in the assembly as a whole but it's a chopper style where the sq. and fb's are interchangeable. The rubber comes out 1-1/8". Different duro squeegees are going to act a little differently from your press to mine if there is that much difference in how much rubber is coming out of the holder. I know the tip of an 80 is always an 80 but my blade will bend significantly more and change the shear action. That's good to know because I may swear by a 70 duro blade and they might not be worth a damn on another squeegee holder and print more like an 80.
I am right at one inch showing on a brand new 2 inch wide blade. Not that 1/8th is that big of a deal. I would guess it does play a part in what blade I have to use and what kind of bend I get. Interesting, good to know.
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Ok, here's my video(s), I had to do an extra one because I forgot to go over the angle changing and readout.
How could you forget such an amazing feature. ;)
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Where's everyone else at with their vids? Busy I guess, which is always a good thing. I'm interested in the Anatol and TUF. I wonder how close the TUF is to the MHM with it being a center connected, self leveling blade. We haven't had many/any M&R vids have we?
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Where's everyone else at with their vids? Busy I guess, which is always a good thing. I'm interested in the Anatol and TUF. I wonder how close the TUF is to the MHM with it being a center connected, self leveling blade. We haven't had many/any M&R vids have we?
I picked up an iPhone this week and will make some videos to put up here of the Anatol mini horizon.
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Where's everyone else at with their vids? Busy I guess, which is always a good thing. I'm interested in the Anatol and TUF. I wonder how close the TUF is to the MHM with it being a center connected, self leveling blade. We haven't had many/any M&R vids have we?
I picked up an iPhone this week and will make some videos to put up here of the Anatol mini horizon.
Shanarchy, That will be good to see. I know alot of guys really like the Anatol presses. There is alot of you guys on this forum. Can't wait to see it. Thanks for Joining in.
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I will defer to Shanarchy for this one.
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Where's everyone else at with their vids? Busy I guess, which is always a good thing. I'm interested in the Anatol and TUF. I wonder how close the TUF is to the MHM with it being a center connected, self leveling blade. We haven't had many/any M&R vids have we?
I would like to see some of the older presses also. This is not just about what brand does it better.
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The similarity between the tuf and the Mhm stops at the self leveling. On the Mhm it still uses individual flood and squeegee and it uses the common chopper style, the tuf is a v system that is well different to say the least. I operated a javelins for many years it was not till I went to a chopper system did I realize how frustrating the v squeegee system is.
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Well 3 Hoodies short and cant finish till tomorrow... So I went ahead.
Anatol Sqeegee and Flood Bars (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHRUAQujrIE#)
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But that is an addon or an option right?
Default they have those hanger clamp things right? The one that I've seen was like that at least.
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If you are referring to the quick release, no. Every Anatol comes with this.
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Hmm, when did they start that? Maybe the one I've seen is just older?
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I would like to see some of the older presses also. This is not just about what brand does it better.
If it's not just about that, perhaps you should not title your poll, "What press has the best Squeegees & Flood Bars?" lol!
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I gotta ask- what is the difference between the squeegee pressure (pneumatic) that is universal to the printhead and the squeegee height adjustment on each chopper? How do they interact?
The digital readouts on the RPM are such a good idea to me, not overkill at all. You could ensure easy repeatability with a wide variety of operators with that sort of feature.
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But is it really that important to have your squeegee at EXACTLY 11 degrees vs "about 11"?
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But is it really that important to have your squeegee at EXACTLY 11 degrees vs "about 11"?
Probably not but it does allow you more precise control over repeating a setting and there might be certain circumstances where that one unit could make a difference. That kind of control is more about eliminating variables and it does that better than any other option. If it doesn't cost any extra to show you an exact digital number versus a dial on a gauge then I'll take the digital version.
Zoo, you don't have to do much, if any adjusting to the squeegee height once you get them set down far enough to where they will push the mesh down onto the shirt. We move ours up or down if we change the angle enough to where the blade won't reach down far enough. You use the air regulator to add or decrease the pressure within the chopper cylinders needed to shear the ink. You can have your blade set all the way down but if you don't have enough pressure in the cylinders then the ink won't clear the screen. You can also have 100 psi in the chopper cylinders but if your blades aren't set far enough down then it won't print.
They are used in unison to a degree but you could set your squeegee chopper all the way down and never change it ever again. We don't have ours maxed out but pretty close to where we don't have to mess with them much, only on rare occasions with extreme angles or a very stubborn ink. We leave a little play left in them but not enough to matter. If an ink isn't clearing a screen we just turn the regulator knob and I add just one or two psi at a time to make sure we print with minimum pressure.
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I would like to see some of the older presses also. This is not just about what brand does it better.
If it's not just about that, perhaps you should not title your poll, "What press has the best Squeegees & Flood Bars?" lol!
Let me explain what I said. "This is not "just" about what brand does it better" That means something’s are and something’s are not about what brand is better. Some parts like the voting is about what brand is better. The making videos and sharing them is not just to prove your press is better.
I started this video series so other screen printers can see what options are out there. Like me many of us will never know how our brand new press works until its in our shop. You can search the web for pictures and videos but they never show much. (trust me I searched for videos for months) The sales people will tell you everything good about them and sometimes what’s bad about other brands presses. Other screen printers will tell you what they think about their press. Many don't know enough about how other presses work to say theirs is the best or works the best. When I started this I thought it would be a really positive thing for our industry and this forum. It would let us shop for an auto press without the influence of sales people. It would let you see a lot more presses up close and personal then you ever could before. We always talk about them but seeing them and how they really work is much more productive.
Again I want to thank all the guys that have been making videos and I hope soon we can see some of the other brands. I think we are still missing a few brands people would like to see.
Thanks Jon
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But is it really that important to have your squeegee at EXACTLY 11 degrees vs "about 11"?
They are used in unison to a degree but you could set your squeegee chopper all the way down and never change it ever again. We don't have ours maxed out but pretty close to where we don't have to mess with them much, only on rare occasions with extreme angles or a very stubborn ink. We leave a little play left in them but not enough to matter. If an ink isn't clearing a screen we just turn the regulator knob and I add just one or two psi at a time to make sure we print with minimum pressure.
Alan,
This is the part I am having some issues with and talking to different printers I get different answers. Some use a steady air pressure and adjust the choppers. Then some are like you and leave the choppers alone and adjust the air pressure. I am sure there is not a right way but I would really like to hear more on this from other people. It may have to be another topic.
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But that is an addon or an option right?
Default they have those hanger clamp things right? The one that I've seen was like that at least.
Older Anatols have the hanger clamps OR air clamps so yes at some point they switched completely over to the quick release system ONLY. My circa 2004/05 Trident had membrane buttons on the head controls for squeegee and floodbar air clamps but didn't come with them installed, just hanger clamps. When my press was upgraded with Pr1ntex chopper assemblies with air clamps they put in manual toggles for the clamps rather than run solenoids, wiring, etc to make it work with the head panel buttons. It could have been done electronically but dang EACH MAC valve is $40, each head would have two, times 10 heads.
I could post a video of my chopper/squeegee clamps but I don't want to get shot in the face!
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I think a video of your machine would be in context and would be fine, but it's obviously not my decision to make. I'd like to see the Trident and how the chopper cylinders were retrofitted. I've thought about doing something similar to our machine way in the future when our cylinders start failing, but that is a long way down the road...knock on wood.
Alan,
This is the part I am having some issues with and talking to different printers I get different answers. Some use a steady air pressure and adjust the choppers. Then some are like you and leave the choppers alone and adjust the air pressure. I am sure there is not a right way but I would really like to hear more on this from other people. It may have to be another topic.
We've always relied on the air pressure regulator for the most part, and I adjusted the squeegee up and down on stubborn inks that needed something extra or really soft inks that needed very little pressure. My advice would to be to crank the squeegee all the way down, or close to it and rely on the air pressure to print with, you can really dial it in and not get into a habit of using too much pressure. I always start our psi at around 20 when setting up a job, then do a test print and adjust it higher until the ink clears. If you start low and go up then you know you'll always be printing with as little pressure as you need to clear the screen. I know a lot of printers will have the pressure regulator on 40 psi from a previous job and then they put a new screen and new ink in that printhead that doesn't need that much pressure and just continue to print and they are using about 15-20 psi too much and losing opacity and wasting ink. Try it both ways for a week and I think you'll end up using the technique that we do and very rarely will you need to mess with changing the chopper settings.
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What I do is set all my Squeegees with the choppers to just kiss the platen. I make sure I find the lowest platen to do this other wise it will not work exactly. I then do exactly as Alan does and use the air pressure to find the best sheer for the ink, I can change it for any ink property in a second. What I find is by setting the squeegee the way I do and leave it alone all I then do is Find the best adjustments on all the other variables, like air pressure, speed, angle, etc. The old days for me on the Jav was add more squeegee pressure till the screen cleared lets just say the detail was not always the best.
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ok, so the chopper adjustments on either side raise/lower the blades and the air regulates how much downward force is behind the assembly?
So if you set the air at zero but the choppers were down in the right place and tried to run some white through a 310 the blade would probably just skip over the top of the stencil, not clearing it?
I think I've got it.
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ok, so the chopper adjustments on either side raise/lower the blades and the air regulates how much downward force is behind the assembly?
So if you set the air at zero but the choppers were down in the right place and tried to run some white through a 310 the blade would probably just skip over the top of the stencil, not clearing it?
I think I've got it.
With the air set to zero the squeegees would not even come down to print. The air pressure controls or drives the choppers movement. You need at least some pressure just to make the squeegee move down. It is really a very precise dance you do with the air pressure and the chopper setting. Someday I will get it just right. I think it is easier to just set the air or the choppers at one setting and then control everything with the other. I think that is how everyone is doing it.
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Got it. I guess I was comparing this visually to the only autos I have which are a pair of American flatstock presses. On those you simply adjust the squeegee down and lock it. No other pressure controls that I can see. I think it has one "pressure" and then you raise/lower your blades around that. No air runs to the machines.
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Lets look at it this way.
place a squeegee in the squeegee holder with no screen in the head raise the table and lower the squeegee to printing position. Now using the chopper knobs set your squeegee depth to just kissing the palette even on both sides. You may think ok that is it the thing will always print that depth wrong. Put a screen in now really high tension with a thick white ink. Drop your squeegee down to print position at a very low air pressure, well because of the screen tension it will need more air pressure, so you increase, you do this for all ink types they dont all require the same amount of pressure as others and all screens have different tensions as well. Now the real beauty here is no matter how much pressure you add with air you are not going to drive the squeegee any deeper into the palette, the choppers mechanically stop that.
My thinking is if you set your choppers to allow the squeegee to just touch the palette and you are having an issue clearing the screen it has nothing to do with the depth of the squeegee but most definitely one of the other variables, speed, air pressure, angle. Find the sweet spot in them and you will have good prints with much much less fibrillation.
By setting the squeegee to a certain depth and convince your self to never adjust that it will force you to consider the other variables to get a good print, the old way was MORE PRESSURE! Not anymore for me.
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Thanks inkman that clarifies it for me. The chopper adjustments set the depth, like stop points. Then you set your pressure where you need it.
So I guess on these old American units without any air it's one pressure and all you get to adjust is the height of the squeegee and flood. And it sounds like for the newer machines, most do it the other way around- set the blade heights and adjust pressure.
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Zoo, our old centurian had a squeegee pressure air regulator just like the modern presses have. I'm not sure if the multiprinters have that or not. I'm telling you, those old centurians were ahead of the game way back in the late 80's, early 90's.
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Zoo, our old centurian had a squeegee pressure air regulator just like the modern presses have. I'm not sure if the multiprinters have that or not. I'm telling you, those old centurians were ahead of the game way back in the late 80's, early 90's.
Some do, some don't. Same goes for the flatstock presses like the Tempo, I've seen them both ways. All our gear doesn't have it. I'm not sure if there's a certain vintage where they started adding it standard but it's probably unnecessary on some of the models like the Cameos that were out there kicking out membrane panels of the same thickall day every day, you just don't have much to adjust there. I would imagine you could retrofit this on with some parts from GPI though, maybe just upgrade the ub head since white is such a finicky ink that shifts its rheology on you during the run.
Getting off topic but Alan how did you manage parts & service with that Centurian? AWT-GPI has one of the weirdest ordering systems out there and 9/10 times you don't get what you needed so that kinda is a deterrent for me.
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I went through the equipment services group at GSG in Dallas. Those guys know the centurian better than most, maybe even better than the AWT people. They always got me parts the next day so they must be plentiful.
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I went through the equipment services group at GSG in Dallas. Those guys know the centurian better than most, maybe even better than the AWT people. They always got me parts the next day so they must be plentiful.
Noted, thx Alan
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Anyone else want to post a video? We are still missing quite a few of the big manufactures here like TAS, M&R, Brown, Lawson, Progressive / Falcon.
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Yes, come on people, need more videos. Not one single M&R press out there? Don't tell me everyone is too busy printing on them to have time to post a 2 minute video. If I can do it with the last few weeks going on anybody should.
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Killer has a Brown press that I would love to see.