TSB
screen printing => Waterbase and Discharge => Topic started by: alan802 on March 14, 2012, 06:42:04 PM
-
Why the hell am I just now trying this stuff? I just printed a few samples of the standard yellow and the red that is closer to a warm red than blood red and this s hi t is freaking awesome. Why the hell would anyone rather have a thick plastisol red with a white underbase when they could have what I just got through printing? I'm making the switch, one way or the other. It's so damn easy. I mixed them both with 4% activator and the color is bright as anything we print and the shades are right on with our standard golden yellow and about 75% of all of the basic reds that are requested. I'll get pics uploaded sometime in the next 24 hours, but I am flat out impressed by the color and the ease of use.
-
Yep.
Now you'll start hating any garments/colors that don't discharge.
-
cant wait to see it, I want to try some, but they won't return my emails.
-
We are surrounded by shops up here that refuse to use water base / discharge ink. They think it is a "fad." But since they have been in business for various lengths of time (and long ones at that) they believe if it's not broke why fix it. But they don't realize you are giving the client a better shirt and your profit margin is way better. Fine with me. More business for us as the public awareness grows.
-
It will take a couple days J. And Alan that stuff is freaking awesome. My only concern is when it gets 110 in the shop how's it gonna act.
it will also make you hate requests for 50/50s!
-
Retarder or PrintGen or whatever for the dog days.
We've actually had a fair bit of work come in based on someone seeing a
discharge print we did for someone else. Hell if the public knows what it's
called, but they like it.
Careful using it on the biker/construction worker/landscaper types though.
If it ain't bulletproof it ain't a printed shirt with them.
-
I actually sell those on the fact that the shirt will breathe better. Around here when its 110 they love the way that sounds!
-
Heres one with a all standard right out of the bucket ink from Sericol. Yellow was at 5% and the others were at 3% with a little fixer added in.
(http://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt25/Inkwerksspd/Riseup.jpg)
-
i love that, got to get my samples.
-
I'm washing the shirts as we speak but I took pics beforehand.
First pic is a standard brite red plastisol print on the left and the sericol discharge on the right.
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr211/alan802/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_1158.jpg)
The rest of these are sericol discharge with one stroke through 123's @ 35 newtons.
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr211/alan802/Mobile%20Uploads/EC09F317-1DCA-4D82-A460-952E428CAD32.jpg)
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr211/alan802/Mobile%20Uploads/76F52DC8-AE78-4F20-B602-1811D7E8AC31.jpg)
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr211/alan802/Mobile%20Uploads/73B603ED-30D8-4E01-8DC5-943FE0A1631F.jpg)
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr211/alan802/Mobile%20Uploads/11968A50-2BED-4E0D-B75A-FE19F22FFDE3.jpg)
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr211/alan802/Mobile%20Uploads/BF6A73E0-1BCD-43EA-ACEB-72112AF187A6.jpg)
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr211/alan802/Mobile%20Uploads/8D471D1A-9EDB-4946-AF0F-8F05BB3BF7F5.jpg)
-
Alan, what red is it? Ironically, I just called Sericol today about the their WB Discharge system, since I've been dissatisfied with my Mataui Red Discharge. After a year of fiddling, I've only run a handfull of suitable BRIGHT RED Discharge Jobs. I've tried 185, 186, 1935 and tweaked and tweaked. Yet I've always been underwhelmed.
The Sericol Lab is who fielded my call, and suggested the SMS ink system for me. 10 printable, dischargeable colors that can also be combined for PMS colors.
Stan
-
That's the one Stan. Great stuff
-
Alan, what red is it? Ironically, I just called Sericol today about the their WB Discharge system, since I've been dissatisfied with my Mataui Red Discharge. After a year of fiddling, I've only run a handfull of suitable BRIGHT RED Discharge Jobs. I've tried 185, 186, 1935 and tweaked and tweaked. Yet I've always been underwhelmed.
The Sericol Lab is who fielded my call, and suggested the SMS ink system for me. 10 printable, dischargeable colors that can also be combined for PMS colors.
Stan
We use Matsui pigments for our water base and discharge. After years of working them we have our own mixing system for pretty much everything. To get a true red or 185, 186 or whatever you have to use their Neon Red. Want a bright ass yellow? Add white discharge. Will pop off the shirt. Want a real, matt dark as night black? Use their Jet Black Paste. They sell a lot of stuff their distros don't even rep. Don't know why but that's how it is with them and their distros. Just call or email them. With any water base system you are going to have to tweak it to your shop.
-
I guess my point is with any ink company regardless of water base or plastisol contact them. They make it so they should and usually have the answer to your situation.
-
Sericol is part of the Fujifilm network 800-255-4562 this will get you in touch with your nearest rep
tp
-
awesome looking prints
if we switch to the emulsion I want in the near future I could see us doing a lot more waterbase discharge for the 1 color stuff that is otherwise usually underbased
is it possible to do a yellow water base discharge(used as underbase too) and a color after it say red waterbase (non discharge)? I would assume so but have only done white and base discharge so far
-
Alan, I didn't see your post-washing impressions. What did you think?
I too received Sericol Texcharge samples and discharged some really BRIGHT red test prints, right out of the can (except for 3% discharge agent.)
I just completed my 2nd test wash, and my samples still look good and bright, with maybe only a 2-3% loss of "pop" when compared side by side with a fresh print. No measuring here, just observation.
The TC-122 SMS Red YS does look a little more orange than I'd like, but its waaaaay better than a print that "pinks up" after a few trips through the washer.
It makes me wonder about compatibility issues, like....what if I added a little Matsui Red Neo pigment. I guess I can test it myself, and do some trips through the washer.
My reds have just been poor.
Stan
PS And thanks to TonyP and Prosperi-Tees for the Sericol contact info. With Kansas City being so close to Wichita, we got the samples the very next day.
-
hi everyone
those print looks sharp no doubt about it
i my concern is the odor
how much ventilation do you need to run these types of inks
i only have printed plastisol because allergies to fumes like air dry inks
how bad are the fumes coming out of these inks
Thanks
Gabe
-
The fumes are not that bad although I am probably not the most sensitive to those types of things. I spent over 10 years in the industrial coatings industry smelling laquers, epoxies and urethanes all day.
Hey this is my 1000th post! What do I win? lol.
-
I spent over 10 years in the industrial coatings industry smelling laquers, epoxies and urethanes all day.
That explains a lot.... ;D
-
Lol yes it does! Sometimes I dont know whether im coming or going.
-
I washed everything and I am still very impressed. The color softened a very slight bit, but they are still so bright and I'm very pleased with the results. I will be buying the other shade of red, blue and green one gallon at at time over the next few months. I've got a few jobs in line that I'm going to use the red, yellow and CCI D-white on and I'll keep everyone up to date on the results.
-
Check out their flourescents they are very very good.
Also you can download The entire PMS formulas from their website. They are "starter" formulas but relatively accurate and you can adjust as necessary and record. Its about seventy odd pages and I have it saved to my desktop
tp
-
Yes the flouros are nice. Here is the green, looks much brighter in person.
-
sericol still wont respond to me :(
-
Sent you a PM J
-
I have been telling you guys to give sericol a shot over the last several months with almost no response other than how killer the cci products are. sericol has been making this product for over 20 years and are the best discharge products on the market hands down.
sericol direct-913.342.4060 reed is the contact
-
I am very happy with my earlier test print results, and I'm about to pull the trigger on a set of these mixing inks: Sericol Matching System (SMS) Texcharge Waterbase and Discharge.
I was hesitant at first, because my understanding of the Matsui stuff I've been using was that 6 months shelf life on those Matsui bases was usual. I've never had any of the Matsui Bases go bad or separate, because 6 months was PLENTY for us. We use it.
But with the Sericol Texcharge, I didn't think I could get all 10 gallons of premixed colors + Flourescents used up in 6 months with only one press, and we still print with some plastisol.
BUT THEN.... I discovered the Texcharge use by date on the cans out to 2 YEARS!! I talked to my rep and he said that's right. REALLY?!? (I haven't even been discharging that long....)
Here's my question to you Sericol WB Texcharge users: Have you had problems with shelf life of pre-activated product? I am aware that Fujifilm Sericol caters to the larger plants (which I am NOT) but still, you probably have a feel for the shelf life.
I'm willing to toss a certain, small, percentage of ink I guess. But if it really goes two years, sheesh. That's probably good enough.
Stan
-
Atlas Screen Supply offers them in qts if that is a concern. I am contemplating myself whether to go qts or gallons.
-
Atlas Screen Supply offers them in qts if that is a concern. I am contemplating myself whether to go qts or gallons.
By "them" do you mean Matsui pigments? Your post was unclear to me anyway.
-
Oh, them means Sericol
-
Well good deal. For some colors, that might still make more sense.
Thanks!
-
got my sample gallons in today, cant wait to try them. :)
-
My Sericol rep says "they" are thinking "they're" missing the boat by not promoting product to some of the smaller to medium sized printers, and developing that market. It's just a tiny slice of Fujifilm, but in this economy.....well, you know. And look for them to begin phasing in the Fujufilm name, over Sericol. To that, I say okay, whatever....
I'm still watching this thread, and calling printers I know use the stuff.
-
I've shown the printed samples to a dozen customers over the last week and I've gotten a great response. I'm ready to phase this ink into production but I've got a sales staff that you can tell them things 100 times and they still won't get it. I've told them all about discharge inks and the garments and colors that work best for months now but when I'm showing the samples to their customers they still have no idea that not all garments are dischargeable. I can just see it now, a customer will want the discharge soft hand feel and order 50/50 royal blue shirts and our sales staff won't remember a word I've told them.
-
Alan, you almost need to make a brochure of sorts explaining all the different processes that you offer and the limitations of them as well. I'm thinking of doing the same thing because sometimes I forget to offer other services to our customers such as business cards, banners, promotional items etc etc.
-
I've shown the printed samples to a dozen customers over the last week and I've gotten a great response. I'm ready to phase this ink into production but I've got a sales staff that you can tell them things 100 times and they still won't get it. I've told them all about discharge inks and the garments and colors that work best for months now but when I'm showing the samples to their customers they still have no idea that not all garments are dischargeable. I can just see it now, a customer will want the discharge soft hand feel and order 50/50 royal blue shirts and our sales staff won't remember a word I've told them.
Alan do you have the Gildan Discharge Chart?
I got one emailed to me. It shows a large number of dye colors and their discharge-ability rating. Not exactly their current color offerings, but its a starting place.
Stan
-
sericol yellow rs, printed today.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/jlansdell/sericolyellowred.jpg)
-
I'm having some issues with this sericol stuff. We just ran a 3 color print, HO white base, texcharge red, then a plastisol on top of that. . .it was HO white, mixed 50/50 with base, 5 % activator 3% retarder. . it plugs the screen really fast, I would say in under 10 seconds. we had it on a 160 mesh, roller frame. . the underside of my screen after the white turned into a gummy mess, but the ink was flaking off into the design, almost in chunks. We ended up flashing after the WB, that fixed it from picking up on the other screen but not what i wanted to do. And then the red turned into this same gummy consistency, it would not flood at all after about 12 prints. The red was straight out of the bucket, 4.5 % activator, maybe a little less. . . we have matsui inks here too so I will be using those for the next few jobs but what am I missing here? We are using the right emulsion on all the screens. . .it was a little hot back there today, maybe we need to mist the screen with water every once in a while?. . .
-
See if Sericol offers a retarder or something similar.
Matsui has Printgen uhhh, M I think. Or C.
Really helps on hot days and hot shops.
A splash of water helps too.
-
I asked my rep the same thing and that's why I'm waiting to get the complete texcharge system. But he did say the retarder works well and shops in hot south America use a ton of it. I want to see how it is when it's 115+ in the shop.
-
I use it and have never had a problem. we run light flood pressure and mist with water when we stop. as far as the build up we run a 80/20 base/white mixture for the underbase and a highlight white. Under cured screens can also contribute big time to the problem jay is having with build up.also the reds and yellows only need 3% activator. anymore will disrupt the color. I think with the right mix on your underbase and go to 5% retarder and check your exposure times you will eliminate alot of these issues.
-
we just switched emulsion, so that may be it Rick. we were probably a little too heavy on the flood as well. . in the data sheet, it said reds and flo colors need 4.5%, maybe I'll jump down to 3 and see if that was it. Hopefully I can dial in the mix a little better.
Pros, you have the same thing with your red? the gummy consistency?
Eb, I have the retarder, I put in 3%... maybe I'll go a little more, touch of water on the really steamin days.
-
jay, are you using the sericol dirisol 916 emulsion? if so the exposure window in huge(even with halftones. We over exspose screens used on discharge and waterbase designs. any stickyness will cause problems. thin even/thin coating is the ticket and will really help this. unlike plastisol you dont need the thicker coat. just sayin
-
I wouldnt call it gummy ,but it does seem a little strange in consistency in the bucket, its hard to explain but I add just a dash of water after mixing in the agent.
-
Perhaps this question should have it's own thread, but I'll give it a shot here.
Do the Sericol DISCHARGE Fluorescents (say Texcharge TC-053 Fluorescent Yellow, or TC-137 Fluorescent Red) work like plastisol fluorescents, that light up under a black light?
I have a customer for whom we use Tri-Flex Fluorescent Red, Wilflex Fluorescent Pink, and Tri-Flex Fluorescent Yellow, over a solid, bright white, plastisol underbase. If the Sericol Discharge would work like that, I'd jump at the chance to try it out.
Stan
-
Are you sure your not talking about glow in the dark ink? In the few years I have been printing i didnt know flour colors did that.
-
Are you sure your not talking about glow in the dark ink? In the few years I have been printing i didnt know flour colors did that.
Nope. Not sure about much of anything!
When we bought this shop nearing 5 years ago, we inherited a customer that periodically orders, glow-under-blacklight-shirts. Red, Green and Yellow on black shirts, and we hate them. The ink gets thick and is hard to print and the underbase is PFP through 110. We'd like to minimize the hand and find ink that prints easier, but still performs as well.
I just got off the phone with my very knowledgable vendor who told me, that he thought the Sericol Fluorescent would "FLUORESCE..." under black light just fine, even though they don't sell the product.
Rick, I'm going to check around some more, but maybe we will both learn something, and we both just might like it!
Stay Tuned...
-
I just stuck my neck out on those fluorescent colors. I didn't think I could justify a half a day of phone calls, emails and "well, who might know then?" for 100 bucks. So I'm picking up the 3 quarts I need at the UPS terminal at the crack of dawn Monday, and I'll run a couple of shirts, then wash test. I have a blacklight somewhere..... Where did I put that stupid thing?!!
But I think it just might work.
I will post back. The job has to go out Monday either way.
Stan
-
thanks. I would like to know
-
Sericol Texcharge Fluorescent Discharge Red and Yellow definitely, and beyond any shadow of a doubt do fluoresce under blacklight. I printed a small job today on black PC 61 with those two fluoros plus Green. Wash test was good.
Some observations: 4.5% discharge agent is max. I'm all manual, and both "drying in", and "picking up" problems are definitely there. Don't let any grass grow under your feet. And do NOT under any circumstances mix more ink than you can print in 4 hours. It loses its punch. I asked cust service about it, and they were right. 4 hours. The "glow" performance associated with Fluorescent Ink is strong, but not quite equal to the TriFlex plastisol I'd been using. Perhaps 97% as bright? Just guessing....
-
thanks for the info on printing with the waterbase flourecents. good to know about the black light glow..
-
What do you know, in my part of e world Sericol does not offer discharge inks that alan be used straight from the pot. We have to get the base and the pigments. Just wondering if the guys at Sericol will tell me how to match their standard discharge colors by using their base and pigments.