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screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: ZooCity on March 19, 2012, 05:14:39 PM
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I'm considering a `97 Gauntlet S. All options, all air. Serviced by M&R techs only, single owner. Sounds like as fine a specimen of this machine as you might find.
So condition not being a large concern ( I do need to check on impression count, though I hear these units go forever), what are your opinions on the trusty old Gauntlet?
I have no delusions of grandeur even though this is our first textile auto and don't expect the machine to setup as easily or have the options of newer models and can fully embrace it's limitations. Even the most primitive of automatics will help me through 70-80% of my workload and be a worthwhile investment given that I have the space and capacity.
My concerns right now are:
- Screen size. My man tells me it can run 25"x30" M3s, our current stock size, but not 36" length. Confirmation on this? And why exactly is this the case? Not enough screen holder adjustment room? I want to run 36" long not for increased image area, 16x18 is fine, but rather to have lead in/out for the squeegee and flood and room for the ink well.
- M&R/"x-y"micros. I think they suck. I've rebuilt and re-set them on a Chameleon myself and doing this confirmed my opinion. Just not a smart design. Are they manageable on the autos or even more of a problem?
- Parts and service? Not expecting a problem here of course but there's always those little things that are no longer being made by anyone. This is a 15yo machine after all.
- Range of squeegee/flood pressure adjustment- I have almost nothing but S mesh in the house and want to keep it that way. It requires comparatively light, perfectly even fill and stroke pressure. Any machine I bring in needs to be capable of this.
I know that MK, Tony P and Homer have or have ran these machines as well as others on here so I'd love to hear your sage advice if you're willing to lend it.
Thanks in advance and I hope this thread can become a nice tome of info on these old standby's for others.
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I sold my Gauntlet S about 5 years ago. I believe it was a '98. I still get to visit my baby, as I do PM and other service on the machine. It's about an hour and a half from me. I never would have sold it, but our market demands higher colors than this press could do. I know this machine is still running every day. My main concerns would be , are you still able to bet the Bimba cylinders for the print/flood stroke. I know my friend has got them within the last year or two.
I really wish I had a use for that press. The damn thing ran to beat hell.
I probably didn't answer your questions. If I had a need for a press that size, I'd grab that thing up, almost sight unseen. I miss my baby.
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no matter what you do -pay for a real tech to install it. . .
the micros blow. . you'll need a reg unit. . .
air locks - you will need to upgrade to the bar newman style or use the damn shims like we do.
set up time is slow due to the manual clamps, not air - although I don't know this machine -maybe a '97 model has air clamps.
Squeegie/ flood regulators -we have the old school knob style, PITA>
I don't know zoo, I don't think you will be 100 % satisfied with it - We are keeping ours because we need it, it's paid for, I won't get anything for it but I can not wait to get a new machine. . .I'll freakin sleep with it. . .I'd buy new - avoid the down time from break downs. . .that's just my opinion from running mine. . .or buy a refurb from CGS. . .
Oh and parts- don't worry about that, you can make almost anything on these old air machines, or get it from grainger.
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We run a '94 6/8. It needs maintenance once a year, about $1200 last year, but it runs and runs well. It's not our main machine (MHM 10/12) but it does an excellent job. How much cake do they want? And what Homer says, get a real tech, with a Z-bar, to set it up for you, it's well worth it.
Steve
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Well, if Dave says it's a good machine then I'd bet anything that it is.
I know it's your first auto, and there are many things that aren't concerns to you as far as some features and options like servo and AC heads. BUT, I know your level of commitment to the quality of your work, and I just know that there are going to be things that will eat you up with those air print heads. Your shop is probably one of, if not the top manual shop as far as quality goes and I personally think that you are going to want ALL the control that you can get and some of those features that you may be willing to overlook will give you that control that you are used to having. The air indexer is not going to affect the print quality at all, but I do believe that the air print heads are harder to get the quality of ink deposit that AC heads give you. I'm not saying you can't get a print that is just as good with an air head as an AC head, but I do think you can do more in much less time and the limitations won't be there. The quality likely won't suffer to the average printer's eye, but just knowing you Zoo, I think you're gonna want AC print heads.
Just my thoughts Zoo, I think to the average shop that all air press would be a fantastic starter auto, but you've surpassed average a long time ago and I'd suggest holding out for an AC print head machine.
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Bimba cylinders - this unit has, what my guy has referred to as the large choppers. Are these the Bimba's? I don't see a major issue with replacing them all with something more modern if the machine's price is right.
Homer- this S model has every option available at the time from my understanding, including screen frame locks. By shims do you mean the Newman clamp adapters? I have a set of those and we run the pin-lock as well. To clarify, I don't expect to be wowed by a 15 year old machine, no matter how well it was kept or how good the price. I expect to have a machine that can reliably crank prints out 4-6 times faster than I can with a similar amount of setup time. And also a press that I can setup and easily teach someone to run for me while I tend to other work. If I was looking for 100% satisfaction I'd be leasing an MHM.
This would only be installed by an M&R tech, I wouldn't consider any other route. Full parts warranty from the seller. My singular concern would be having to pay to keep the tech around for an extra day or three to wait for any needed parts to arrive and then install them, presuming if I couldn't myself. It's a single-owner machine only serviced by M&R so I see little issue overall in this department.
So far we have a big vote for the S from bimmridder and a sort of thumbs down from Homer. The picture I'm forming here is that they run like champs but are lacking features to make setup and adjustments easy and may be limited in what can be adjusted overall. I'm ok with that, we still would have the manual when needed. I'm not ok with fighting the press on every setup so to speak. I had a little bit of that with the Chameleon, mostly due to it's off contact feature and those damn x-y micros jumping out of reg when locking after adjustments and often during print runs. If the old S has similar issues, that is a deal breaker for me.
What did you love about the S specifically?
What do you hate about it?
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Alan, jeez you're making me blush over here.
That is some serious food for thought on the AC heads. It was in the back of my mind as a potential issue. Logic tells me that I can make it work with extreme diligence on the maintenance and overall setup but I agree, AC would be so, so much easier just going off the simple physics of it all.
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I have a 99. It's a good press. Not great, not bad, but good. I would take this press any day over manual printing.
I used to use aero-inc for parts, he sold to seritech, there is a link to the old site:
http://aero-inc.com/ (http://aero-inc.com/)
M&R also sells a lot of parts on their site.
The choppers are easy to source. Put the 1" on the squeegee and 3/4" on the flood
Change out the stroke shocks with the rubber grommet-type that aero sells.
31" screens fit fine, I don't think a 36" will fit.
Change the block of MAC valves, there should be 8 if it's a 6 color press.
Is the price pretty good? I would jump on it personally if it's a good price. It's a great starter auto.
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If the price is in the 8k-9k range with a flash jump on it immediatly. those machines print excellent and parts are readily available from m&r. as far as set-up times...WELL, COME ON YOUR MANUALLY PRINTING. These presses set-up fast and tear down fast. set up properly with a m/r tech those babys run a smooth 700 hr. plus and are VERY dependable.Standard screen size is 23x31.I'M guessing it has air locks and central off contact if its a 98', both great features.I wouldnt worry about the number of impressions. as you said its been well serviced by certified m/r techs..
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@MK - what's preventing a 36" long frame from going in there exactly? I'm actually working with Bill Foust on it so the warranty parts would be from that Aero stock.
@RStefanick - I laughed out loud at the caps statement. That's a good point there. This press has all the options available in '97 so yes, central O.C., rear stroke adjustment, no shirt detector, etc.
Do either of you bump into limitations with the air heads? I print on a wide variety of substrates and need serious control of the flood and print strokes to manage this. I use what is probably exceedingly light print pressure and full-on fill strokes. After Alan brought it up it's my main concern. The central o.c. and general integrity of the machine with proper setup and maintenance will help me compensate for enough but without a perfectly even, light stroke and the ability to hard flood I'm not going to be able to make enough use of the machine. For plastisol I'll likely use a squeegee as the flood bar a' la the Dr.J from Joe Clarke on at least a few heads every run. I'm anal about this stuff.
The price is about double what you are throwing out there and yes, comes with flash though I already have a red chili 20x24 at the new shop. The unit sounds like it is in such ridiculously pristine condition that it justifies a higher price but I'm not sure what's too high here.
Still mulling and very thankful for all the feedback.
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the micros blow. . you'll need a reg unit. . .
Homer when you say this do you mean you have to use a reg unit and hit it dead on upon clamping?
I'm guessing these micros jump your reg when you lock down after making any adjustments. I still don't get why they use that design. The press I'm printing with currently has the ability to make a true linear adjustment along the x axis which is typically how my screens are out when using the Pin-Lock. This design has it's flaws still as it can screw up your o.c. after an adjustment on occasion but I've saved probably a few hours a week, no joke, by getting x-y style micros out of the shop, not too keen on bringing them back in there.
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the micros aren't great, but you know what? It's still better than manually printing. As long as you know how to work them, you are fine. I can make most adjustments in 1 or 2 tries.
The holders are front and back holders, you can't move the back ones back far enough to get an extra 4". You might be able to, but you only have a 17" stroke, so why would you need a longer frame? I would go standard size and rock it.
The air heads are fine. If they were that bad, if they were they wouldn't get used.
To be honest, there isn't much to mull. If you get it at a good price, buy it, it will save you time and money. Keep the manual for the jobs that won't be run on the auto. You won't use the manual much though, I promise.
You will print faster, more consistently, and with less effort than before.
It's the difference between a bike and a car.
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Great Little Machine!
I have seen some beautifull printing done on these machine!
Best Bang for the Buck on Any Used Machine!
It will get you automated, and you will get a good ROI. (cash cow)
Easy to work on,good parts availability.
Dependable!
Bill Foust is a Good Person to buy from. He has integrety!
Winston
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A well maintained press of this make and model will serve you well. The micros work fine if they haven't been abused and I would keep an extra Bimba (or Tolematic) around and maybe a safety cord and some prox switches. That said Bill usually has these in stock. Air indexers require a little care and maintenance, especially when switching platens as you have to find the sweet spot combo of index speed, de-cell and shock. BE SURE THE TECH SHOWS YOU THIS! Theres more but I have to go. If you research it and stick with someone like Bill it should make enough money to finance an upgrade in a relatively short period of time. Sure the newer machines are awesome but those little guys can be quite the profit center. And don't think you can't produce first rate quality, many an award has been one on these. It's often more about the pre-press engineering than the brand of press.
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Sorry that I've thrown a wrench into the decision, but a few weeks ago I went to a shop to help them set a tough job up and I struggled with the air heads. I'm not used to them so that's the main reason, but I did have to add a good bit of pressure on the thicker inks where the squeegee stroke was jumping a little. The only experience I have with air print heads is when I go into another shop and I am so used to AC that it's frustrating for me, but honestly I always get the results I'm looking for, more or less. It just takes me a lot longer to get the end result but I know if I had to do it every day, I'd master it and be able to deal with any shortcomings. You still get the downward pressure but the inconsistent speed and finer line art and thicker inks play a bigger role in the overall scheme of things, and those variables are not an issue so much on an AC head machine. Because you are who you are, I have no doubt that you'll get the results you're looking for and when you do get the next auto, you can opt for the AC heads and then you'll be able to see what I'm talking about with the added control. It's all about eliminating variables and going auto will help you tremendously and you'll probably not miss the AC heads until you get them so I say if the price is right, go for it.
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don't get me wrong -it beats the hell out of manual printing any day of the week - I would just hold out for something a little fancier. . you will out grow it within a few months. but it comes down to price too, if you can drop the cash, like Rick said 8/9k - that's a no brainer, start clearing a spot. .if you can hold off for a machine you really want -then wait. . .I still can't stand the micros, I love the MHM style, no need to unlock, that's the bees knees.
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Alan, jeez you're making me blush over here.
That is some serious food for thought on the AC heads. It was in the back of my mind as a potential issue. Logic tells me that I can make it work with extreme diligence on the maintenance and overall setup but I agree, AC would be so, so much easier just going off the simple physics of it all.
I have been told on many occasions and am a firm believer of getting a new (or nearly new) press for a first auto. You really want to learn on something that works rather than trying to figure out if it's the press or you doing something wrong. Take the step and get a new press, you will not regret it!
pierre
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I would say that the biggest issue with these machines is platen deflection, which, if the pre-press issues are not under control, can result in slightly weaker ink coverage on the top edges of the platen. Most obvious on process and sim process.
tp
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maybe, but if it's installed properly and you are properly trained, it can be a great learning experience.
I disagree with buying a nearly new auto. It's like buying a house. My first house was a small 1200 sq ft ranch with no basement. It was fine, I was 22 and single. But I learned living there that I wanted different things in a house. Now on my second house, there are things I would do differently on my 3rd house. If I started out living in my dream home, I would quickly realize that it wasn't. There would be thing I would want or would do differently. I think an auto is a great example of this. We started with a Jav, then moved to a couple of used gauntlets before buying our "new" one in 1999.
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I'm with some of the earlier sentiments--if you can get it for 8 or 9K, get it. If you know it's in good shape and everything works properly, it will make you money, and be a great learning experience.
I haven't used any "nice" auto micros, but with regular maintenance, I never thought they were hard to dial in. Maybe I need to check out the market more. :)
The GT-8 I started printing auto on I took from 700K to 1.4M, (it's over 2M now) and the only downtime was for moving, and a couple prox sensors. The RS I run now is getting close to 2M. I love 'em, although I would point out that Pierre and Alan both have great points--if you have the cash to spend, and you're looking for whats best, perhaps some more research would be in order. If you have 15-30K to get an auto set up, and this thing is running well, in your budget, and you can get it set up and calibrated, I'd do it. If you have 60-100K to do it... well... you wouldn't have started this thread, right? ;)
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I can help you put together a good parts stash too. There are some things that must be on hand just in case.
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I agree with Pierre, buy new if you can, but my first 2 presses were used, and we used them to make money, then about a year or so after the second one, we bought new, MHM Synchroprint S-Type. Huge difference of course, but our '94 Gauntlet still makes us money, and is a very useful press.
Steve
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I own a '95 Gauntlet. I have never had any issues with screen air clamps or the micros. Go watch it in production. It really comes down to price and condition. Everything is negotiable. Do not forget to factor in installation, compressor... That $8000.00 machine will end up costing $12,000 or more. I was going to buy a new press this winter but i was just too busy to get my act together and actually do it. I will try again this fall. The only reason for me selling the Gauntlet would be for 2 extra colors and some added features like servo drive and print/flood adjustments and of course the age of the press. Like someone said before, you see a lot of Gauntlets as second or third presses for companies.
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Oatmeal is better than no meal.
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i learned to print auto in one of those puppys gauntlet
they have special place no doubt
just get a 7/16 rachet put it in your back pocket and print your life away dude
life is good :)
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(http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad253/Z00_CITY/DSCN0224.jpg)
(http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad253/Z00_CITY/DSC02646.jpg)
(http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad253/Z00_CITY/DSC02643.jpg)
Condition seems good all around. Not sure if this justifies the price tag though? I'm hearing 8-9 from you all but the ask price is 2x that.
@MK- It's not about image area : screen size. I'd just rather go ahead and stock up 25x36 as I add screens than more 25x30, which is what I use now. We run 25" wide screens and have for quite a few years now, the whole workflow is setup for it.
I guess I need to sit down and decide if clanky old auto press with air heads is going to be able to maintain our quality of prints. I'm confident I can run it. I won't be super happy doing it and agree that a new machine eliminates the press as a variable while learning but doubling our production speed would put a smile on my face.
Is anyone running S mesh on one of these or similar? This is bugging me, that the air heads will need too much downward pressure to clear the screens and defeat the purpose of using the thin thread mesh. Not a concern with WB but it would make our plastisol prints look like crap.
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Actually, to follow up on that screen length topic, looking at the manual I received from M&R, they call from 6" up top and 9" in the back, going from the o.d. That leaves you with 15" of image area by the manual's terms. You would need to fudge your flood and squeegee angles just to get 16x16 out of it or so it seems and this press has a max image area of 16x18. Seems like a 33" long would be in order here if you want to run that 16x18 and that explains why roller frames come in that odd length. I always wondered about that.
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I would say that the biggest issue with these machines is platen deflection, which, if the pre-press issues are not under control, can result in slightly weaker ink coverage on the top edges of the platen. Most obvious on process and sim process.
tp
Tony I know you're busy but are you telling me that I'll need to adjust art to consider that the front chopper is going to bend my platens out plane when it comes down?
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I would not pay $16-$18,000 for that press. Go look at the a new Diamnodback with servo, revolver...
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Yeah with the new Dback with servo going brand new for 22 I wouldnt touch that old of a press for 16-18. If it were 8-9 maybe.
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I would not pay $16-$18,000 for that press. Go look at the a new Diamnodback with servo, revolver...
completely agree. . .it's a perfect second / back up machine. . .leave it at that.
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With the printing on the platens like that, I'd wonder whether it's SOP to crank the pressure out, if it's out of calibration, or both. Did you check out the platens for warp?
Those frame air locks aren't too much fun--you need adapters, or a chunk of angle iron to span the corners, and it looks like manual clamps for squeegees and floods--that's about an extra minute per head right there on setups.
I'd say 16-18K would be out of the question,even if the thing's absolutely frickin' perfect with a huge stock of spares. And the adjective 'clanky' would make me wonder about that...
On the plus side--I wish they never would have taken the front/rear and single/double off the panel. That is quite a bit more convenient than hitting buttons repeatedly to put a cursor somewhere to change it on each head individually, IMHO.
Did you ever find out how many impressions it has?
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Is anyone running S mesh on one of these or similar? This is bugging me, that the air heads will need too much downward pressure to clear the screens and defeat the purpose of using the thin thread mesh. Not a concern with WB but it would make our plastisol prints look like crap.
I'm using S mesh on a Diamondback. Last week I printed at 22psi through a 150S discharge underbase. Print with 25-30 psi for plastisol quite often. Used 20psi on an 80S for foil adhesive that came out awesome. I don't have experience with A/C heads but wish we had them...
Also I wouldn't go with the press you are looking at because of that asking price and with it's age the setup times will be too long and bothersome. Definitely go for air locks and better frame locks...
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too much money. if it was under $10, it would be perfect!
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if you really want it, 8k cash - slap it on his desk. . .people get funny seeing that many one's stacked up. . .I bet you get it.
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$8k in singles? that's a lot of money.
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I would say that the biggest issue with these machines is platen deflection, which, if the pre-press issues are not under control, can result in slightly weaker ink coverage on the top edges of the platen. Most obvious on process and sim process.
tp
Tony I know you're busy but are you telling me that I'll need to adjust art to consider that the front chopper is going to bend my platens out plane when it comes down?
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No not at all. Usually this is complicated by operator error using the wrong durometer, mesh count, etc where the press op compensates by cranking the pressure. When that happens the deflection is visible. In a perfect world the deflection should be zero.
This deficiency should affect less than one percent of what most people print on a daily basis.
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if you are willing to $pend 16-18k in this press
i would put it towards a new press.
just my 2 cents
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Hey, thanks to all for the input, especially those who took time to call or pm me. Great advice and lot's of food for thought.
My conclusion:
- It's true, I am going to want a more sophisticated servo/ac press given the print methods I insist on using.
- It's also true that, at the right price, and $17k is not the right price I would agree, this would be a fine stepping stone toward the above referenced machine.
My going plan is to stub out for an auto in the new shop, find the max amount we can afford in monthly payments and then a machine that will serve our needs and fits the price tag when financed. I would've likely grabbed this one at about half the ask price as many of you were encouraging, you could make back that price quickly and then some. Double that?...not so much. But it looks like Bill has buyers lined up anyhow so that's good for him.
@Tony - gotcha. It's funny, I read a copy of the manual for this vintage of Gauntlet and it actually recommends you reg a little above due to this issue. With the thin thread mesh I've learned well the art of using the least amount of pressure possible with my hands and wouldn't forget those lessons transitioning to the auto.
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Posting onto this thread to keep info about these presses in one place.
Got a line locally on a 1992 Gauntlet. Owner pulled it out of production b/c when it was last tuned the tech informed him the "chip" needs replaced. If I can overcome this I'm grabbing this machine.
I want to say this is that Mitsubishi controller that I heard was no longer manufactured. Putting my feelers out to see if I can find one but curious if anyone knows what can or can't be done if the right part cannot be found.
thx in advance.
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hmm, the one that new the most about that would have been rick at aero. He's out of the business. I would check with bill foust or even M&R themselves. You might be able to put a newer plc in them if the guts are the same.
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Emails in to both. Dude that is selling is taking off for a week so I've got time to figure it out.
eb introduced me to some crazy hardware/software device thing that you can use - arduino.
http://www.arduino.cc/ (http://www.arduino.cc/)
Honestly, I'll work with whatever I have to seeing how convenient this would be to get an auto for a 5 min drive. The thought of the 800 pcs - DC white I'm printing next week makes just about anything automated sound dreamy.
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The Raspberry Pi is one I thought about as well--but you have to keep in mind, however, those processors are not made to hold up to the shock and vibration of machines, and I doubt they would for long.
The other rough part with this would probably be how much work it would be to actually program another controller like that, along with HW interfacing many, many I/O lines.
That being said, I'd love to help, if I get the chance to see someone try. ;D
The other thing it may be worth checkin on is WHY the chip is "bad". I ran a similar year GT-8 that liked to take a dump on revolver mode, but ran standard mode like a champ.
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I want to say this is that Mitsubishi controller that I heard was no longer manufactured. Putting my feelers out to see if I can find one but curious if anyone knows what can or can't be done if the right part cannot be found.
with a bad controller or program.. you have an elegant paperweight.
the program is long gone as well as those mitsu controllers. I've heard of a few out there sitting on shelves as spares.
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Picking up a '92 locally first thing in March. I'm pumped. The press is in amazing shape considering it's age, insane deal and even has a no shirt detector. The Omron microprocessor is fine from my inspection, it's a simple issue with the sensor that signals it to start the next cycle when the carriage drops/raises. Once again reviving this thread in the interest of keeping a lot of info on these machines in one place.
mk, and others, you mentioned having a certain set of parts on hand at all times. Care to post and share that list here? I'm lucky in that I have a spare mosier indexer cylinder and a couple of spare carriage bumpers, etc. coming with the machine but I'm sure there's much more to acquire for backup.
The only 3 upgrades I'm planning on making, right out of the gates are: putting kip levers on all squeegee/flood angle adjustments, installing air squeegee and flood clamps and, here's the one that may/may not be possible...
...has anyone reworked one of these to allow the squeegee and flood bars to lift at rest, rather than maintaining pressure on the screen all the time? If I go down that road of installing new valves to allow this I'll probably also want to program it to flood at rest rather than flooding after the dwell is complete. Not necessary for wb on an auto if you are moving fast enough but would be very, very nice to have.
And one more ?: it looks like I have room to fit my 25x30 M3s in this press but it looks close, anyone run 25" wide on these. I know that the max length is 31" and can always buy new 23x31 rollers with the cash I'm saving but would rather just use our current stock.
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Picking up a '92 locally first thing in March. I'm pumped. The press is in amazing shape considering it's age, insane deal and even has a no shirt detector. The Omron microprocessor is fine from my inspection, it's a simple issue with the sensor that signals it to start the next cycle when the carriage drops/raises. Once again reviving this thread in the interest of keeping a lot of info on these machines in one place.
mk, and others, you mentioned having a certain set of parts on hand at all times. Care to post and share that list here? I'm lucky in that I have a spare mosier indexer cylinder and a couple of spare carriage bumpers, etc. coming with the machine but I'm sure there's much more to acquire for backup.
The only 3 upgrades I'm planning on making, right out of the gates are: putting kip levers on all squeegee/flood angle adjustments, installing air squeegee and flood clamps and, here's the one that may/may not be possible...
As to parts, Bill Foust bought out Rick at Aero. Handle is danilsade. As to the other issue....call....you know who....Winston. ;D ;D 904-343-0848
...has anyone reworked one of these to allow the squeegee and flood bars to lift at rest, rather than maintaining pressure on the screen all the time? If I go down that road of installing new valves to allow this I'll probably also want to program it to flood at rest rather than flooding after the dwell is complete. Not necessary for wb on an auto if you are moving fast enough but would be very, very nice to have.
And one more ?: it looks like I have room to fit my 25x30 M3s in this press but it looks close, anyone run 25" wide on these. I know that the max length is 31" and can always buy new 23x31 rollers with the cash I'm saving but would rather just use our current stock.
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Prox sensors...1 or 2
Chopper cylinders... a few of those will do. You can also use the bigger 1" for the squeegee and 1/2 or 3/4" for the flood.
I would also replace the head shocks with the rubber stoppers. They last a long freaking time.
That should do it.
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25x 30 frames every other head possible but you need to make sure you have a large enough flash which, if it fits, chews up heads. Air clamps for sq/fld are either a. impossible or b. really really expensive. Same for the squeegee rest but if you find a solution to that let me know. Kips? Probable and cheap. My last 6/8 has all of those deficiences but I still love it. It can generate thousands of $ in gross revenue a day
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Congratulations man, 'bout friggin time!
Air screen clamps? Roller frame bars/clamps? The adapter clamp things are annoying, but
let me know if you need any, I think I have a few.
The sq/flood chop at rest would likely require re-programming as well as a different valve,
3 way if I'm not mistaken. You might be able to finagle something using the signal (or even air) that goes to the
stroke cylinder, IE chop when flood stroke starts.
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...has anyone reworked one of these to allow the squeegee and flood bars to lift at rest, rather than maintaining pressure on the screen all the time? If I go down that road of installing new valves to allow this I'll probably also want to program it to flood at rest rather than flooding after the dwell is complete. Not necessary for wb on an auto if you are moving fast enough but would be very, very nice to have.
that's been my bitch for the past 3 years...have fun using the micros! actually they aren't too bad once you learn how to counter act the force of the squeegies....I would suggest to get those kits that go on the head that dumps the air out of the choppers, that way you don't have to monkey with the squeeg/flood pressure as much...I'll go take a pic of them in a minute.
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Ohhh...every other head? It looks so close from my measurement! They just don't fit then?
It comes with a little Omni flash but I'll be using our 20x24 red chili with it. I use 25" wide to print standard image sizes b/c I like the increases "sweet spot" you get with a wider roller frame. Not noticeable until you run a 6 color sim pro job close to full size but it does make a difference there.
I was trolling the M&R parts store and, yes, it would be probably around $200-250/head by the time I had it all installed using one of their assys for the clamps so probably not going to happen unless I have someone make the extrusions for me cheaper locally and get more affordable air cylinders for the project. I don't mind the manual clamps too much. Will have to think about if the $1500 to do that upgrade would be worth it... Ironically, their manual clamps on the parts store ain't much cheaper than the air assy.
mk, do you know the part # for the bigger, 1" cylinders. I plan on keeping "upgrade" backups for all the cylinders rather than the same. They all look a bit skinny to me.
Tony, how do you over come the constant pressure from the flood or the squeegee on the screen. Homer brought this up as major issue as well. It's not a deal breaker for me but I know it will be a pain in my rear. Then again, if I had the press in the shop this week it would be bangin out (4) 200-800 pc 1co DC orders, a 100 pc 2co DC and a 100pc 4co DC. All of which would play fine with that situation. It would likely not play well with the 6 color sim pro plastisol job on canvas totes. Having that blade pressure preventing clean peel on WOW plastisol prints sounds like a trip to downtown trouble town to me.
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Congratulations man, 'bout friggin time!
I know, right?!
We have a whole bucket of M3 clamp adapters if needed, thx though. I think you are barking up the right tree with the different air switch and then getting into the program and sort of tweaking that part of the cycle. The big obstacle, or so it appears to me from watching this thing work for 10 minutes, is that it's all setup to: End Print - Dwell - Table Down - Index/Flood - Table Up/Print. Would have to put the thinking cap on to get that reworked.
Jason, show me that upgrade and where to get them. That would be huge to just dump air and let the blades rise up for micros and loading/unloading.
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Yeah, pretty simple when you get down to it. It's the NOT allowing the thing to index/print
unless the proxies are reading right that's the hard part.
As for dropping the sq/fl pressure off, should be as simple as a manual three way exhausting valve?
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There are three fixes to the squeegee rest. a. brute force that puppy in there, bshut off and drain the air, or c. raise it as high as it goes then lower. Major design flaw
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Yeah, I don't know what they were thinking when they engineered it that way. I like adding an easy switch to dump air. When you dump air, does it naturally lift the carriages or do they just hang there?
Talking out my ass here but, the dwell obviously has some sort of counting/metering to it. If you could program it to send a signal out at different points in the dwell count you might be able to add functions at the beginning of the dwell clock. Maybe you could install the three ways and have them fire on the first "unit" or "second" of the dwell count? This presumes a command is not already being used there. I need to get an interface for the Omron to mess with this.
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Oh man, ladder programming PLC logic? May the force be with you...
Generally speaking when you dump air from a chopper system it will hang where it is.
Wonder if it is possible to put in another valve that will pressurize both sq and fl at the same time,
balancing them out.
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They just hang there and you can lift them freely
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I don't think there's any way of putting the Sq and Fl up at the same time--it's an A/B mac that is hooked up crossed over--if the squeegees down, the flood is up, and vice versa.
Dump the air, and they drop because of gravity--although personally, I think it's easier to put the squeegee in with air on, the flood is easier to put in, while in the flood position. (if that makes sense)
You bugged M&R yet about the program and whether or not they have a WB style program for those older guys?
Even with just plastisol the F/R control comes in handy when you have money-persons who don't want to pay to fix the seal that leaks in the rear position.... ::)
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as far as I know, and after talking to the Hoff, it is not possible to reprogram these older units. One other thing Zoo, check the internal battery on the main control unit. It's a tiny little thing, cost about 15.00 @ radio shack....if that battery goes dead, you will loose the entire program and then have to send it in to M&R to get reprogrammed for 250.00......the battery lasts about 3-4 years...once again, ask me how I know. :P
Pics in a sec.
the whole kit, I have one more here to install
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u27/Homer__/zoo1_zpsb445c5a3.jpg)
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u27/Homer__/zoo2_zpsab08199f.jpg)
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if you find out if they have a wb program please let me know! we just bought a 6/8, and realized that we might not be able to to run WB because of this.
BUT! i am tempted to set some of the heads as flashes, and see if that would work
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part number 1.200901478B
on this website...
http://www.aero-inc.com/oldsite/gauntlet.html (http://www.aero-inc.com/oldsite/gauntlet.html)
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if you find out if they have a wb program please let me know! we just bought a 6/8, and realized that we might not be able to to run WB because of this.
BUT! i am tempted to set some of the heads as flashes, and see if that would work
No worries all we ever print on the 6/8 is WB
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I figure you just gotta keep it moving with the WB. Textile WB inks are so incredibly forgiving with dry in that I don't perceive we'll have a big issue running, especially once I get our big swamp cooler running this summer. Probably will be more stressful for setting up/test printing 6 co sim pro DC/WB through those 330 screens though. You can always flip the heads off and hit the top button on each head to get it to flood on that head.
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Sorry that won't work at least on mine. So we run the high mesh discharge on the challengers as they have the front/rear option
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Congratulations Chris... took you long enough. ;)