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screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: mk162 on April 25, 2012, 09:41:27 AM
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Doug shipped the unit to me and I got it Monday. I went over a couple things about the shipping with him to improve it on future orders.
He is also changing what the table is made of because of my suggestions.
My first impression was it's not much equipment, which I really like. The table is sort of flimsy, but that is being fixed and Doug is shipping me a new one when it's ready.
The bracket that mounts to the platens are very nice. Well made and sturdy. No carrier sheets or consumables that need to be purchased.
I have only done a couple 1 color jobs so far with it, but I am printing a 5 color and a couple 2 or 3 color jobs also this week. I don't expect to be perfect on the first couple jobs, there still is an element of human error that can only be removed with a direct screen imaging system.
I will post how the jobs setup for us. Doug asked me to do this, but is in no such way paying me or giving me anything to post this. He wants me to be as honest as possible...which is good.
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update #1:
even 1 color jobs setup way faster. about 1/2 to 1/4 the time it used to. no more taping out reg marks after lining the screen up. now we block them out before they hit the press. I am digging it so far.
I can't wait until the new expo unit is running as well. 7500 watts of pure sun-tanning power. Going from 1K to 7.5K should be a huge jump...and I can do 2 screens at one time.
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One comment if I may. Even with direct to screen, you can't count on perfection. You have to consider the person operating the machine, the screens you use, the tolerances you have you press set to, etc. Just think of every variable involved in your set up. I could go on and on. As a user of DTS, I believe it's worth every penny. It is great to set up an eight color job and have it nailed. But don't count on every set up being dead nuts....unless your entire system is.
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I say sell it, get tri-loc and a new msp3140
just sayin;
Sam
ahahahah
glad you are happy brad
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What kind of tape do you use on the substrate side on the regi marks? We use clear tape and cover the marks on one color jobs at our taping station. It's not a huge time saver but why tape up on press when you don't have to.
That regi system should work fine. As long as those three points don't have any "play" in them, you don't make a mistake when transfering the film to screen, or have any movement when you lock down the screens you'll be good to go.
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take some pics -where does it touch on the screen? Do you use rollers? -nevermind, you're a static guy. . .We had an on going issue of the film moving, so we now tape all 4 sides of the film to the glass. No need to tape reg marks, they are out of the squeegie zone so we just grab and go. We line up one color designs to a platen with some lines on it -way fast. . .let us see some pics of this beast. maybe Sam will buy one. . .
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The 3140 is a step up from what I use now, but a step down from what I bought.
I use clear rubber backed tape.
The unit has zero play in it. It's well built.
I think the tri-lock is an OK idea. The idea of carrier sheets is poor engineering to be honest. M&R could make that system way better if they tried.
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Can I come to your shop and check it out? You are still welcome to come to mine when you come to Rome next month.
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The triloc can be used without carrier sheets, and to be honest, I've done it both ways and the carrier sheet method was more accurate than doing it without. I used to be with you in that I thought the triloc was ok, but I have one now and I think it's better than ok.
Using the carrier sheet is faster than using double sided tape or messing with some type of glue, I timed us doing all three methods. If you use double sided tape, you have to put a barrier piece of clear scotch tape down first or the double sided tape will permanently stick to the film and it will be ruined for future use and I had issues with the glue not holding the film in place worth a damn. The carrier sheets just get a little dirty sometimes when you aren't doing that part of the process in a clean environment. I'm trying to talk my artist into moving the film-to-screen process into his department so he can do it instead of my production guys (they aren't detail oriented or bright enough to understand how a few extra minutes aligning film can pay huge dividends at the press) but he's not liking that idea. What he doesn't know is he might not have a choice.
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jason, you are more than welcome to stop by, my darkroom is a mess right now while I make the transition into a better setup.
Alan, I don't reuse film, so that isn't an issue. I've tried filing it, and for the cost of film, it's worth it to reprint jobs as they come through. frankly, I think M&R is a good company, their strong suit it service & reliability, not innovation.
MHM's setup is hands down the best film setup I have personally seen.
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our pin lock uses carrier sheets but they are short and we cut them down even further, no carrier sheet behind the positive. they do work very well and let the reg process become an off press, off screen task. the true benefit of carrier sheets is the final check over of each film to the rest. next benefit is that you have film in reg at the ready if you lose a screen along the way to completing the run. they stay in reg until you un tape them so the carrier/film combo could be stored (you would use a higher quality, more archival film) and used in lieu of filing burned screens if your screen inventory isn't enough our space is an issue.
I thought carrier sheets were lame at first too but there are serious benefits. alan's case is a perfect example- let the art dept output, reg and check films and nothing hits the floor that will cause downtime from an art issue.
Sent from my intelligent phone-a-majigger.
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Here come the facts! IF YOU USE THE TRILOC CORRECTLY, FORGET ABOUT IT, IT CAN'T BE BEAT! My artist does all the carrier work, its not done in the production area. Artists should always do it, not a choice, IMO. If one person in the process does there part wrong, FORGET ABOUT IT, its SUX! But when its right it is awesome!
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i am not trying to start a flame war here, but have you seen the FPU from MHM? That sucker is simple and faster than the Tri-Lock.
The problem I have is the expo unit I've had for ages is a top glass unit. I was looking for something compatible with that. I can use the tri-lock with the new unit I am installing, but I really didn't want to shell out $2300 for one and then continue to have to buy carrier sheets. If you are that concerned about proofing things, set up a proofing step in between film and screen by somebody other than the artist.
I also don't like pulling platens off to put the jig on. That seems like an unnecessary step as well. I am not saying the tri-lock sucks, it doesn't, but it could be better.
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funny you say that, it is rather annoying to yank a platen -it seems like such a simple thing, they pop off easy and go on easy but we are like -damn- this kinda blows.
B- when you raise the table, what is the clearance between the jig clamps and the screen? I see they are beveled and rather flat but are they just low enough where they don't touch the screen?
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I just recently started using the Triloc and i am impressed, sure you do need to yank a platen but what i have been doing is trilocking two or three jobs at one time to save on that assuming 2 or 3 color jobs. What i am curious about is how often are people reusing the carrier sheets before they get to sloppy? Plus I also figured out you must do the carrier registration in a clean dust free room because the static electricity on those sheets is brutal!
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the clamps touch the screen ever so slightly. I don't see it being a problem unless one gets a burr on it.
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At one shop we actually had a pinning department in its own room with one guy controlling the process, cleaning and re-using the sheets as nec, filed all the art, typesetting namedrops, etc. It's best not to have too many hands in the process.
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Do you guys still get crisp exposures with the carrier sheets?
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i am not trying to start a flame war here, but have you seen the FPU from MHM? That sucker is simple and faster than the Tri-Lock.
The problem I have is the expo unit I've had for ages is a top glass unit. I was looking for something compatible with that. I can use the tri-lock with the new unit I am installing, but I really didn't want to shell out $2300 for one and then continue to have to buy carrier sheets. If you are that concerned about proofing things, set up a proofing step in between film and screen by somebody other than the artist.
I also don't like pulling platens off to put the jig on. That seems like an unnecessary step as well. I am not saying the tri-lock sucks, it doesn't, but it could be better.
I have seen the MHM in action. I think it a great system as well. For us the tri-loc is also great, we often dont have to micro. Sometimes we do of course, but I think thats OUR fault in pre-press more so than the tri-loc. We can argue until blue in the face about which is better, I dont think it really matters, what matters is having a registration system of some kind in place. HUGE time saver.
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Do you guys still get crisp exposures with the carrier sheets?
The carrier sheet is above the artwork so it does not interfere with the positive at all, you do have to have enough of a gutter from the top of the art to the edge of film to work best.
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Yeah, any pre-reg is better than nothing. Even on a one color job. It forces you to take a hard look at an control a lot of variables you weren't giving attention to before.
The pin lock platen has swing-in arms. You could leave it on press if you wanted. I choose not to because the sob is heavy but it would be a non issue on an auto. Homer, yer right, it's hilarious how quick and easy a platen change is and at the same time how irritating it is to do.
For us the tri-loc is also great, we often dont have to micro.
It better be great because m&r micros are gad-awful. I think the tri-loc system is just fine and easily the most versatile of the bunch but I don't see any need to have blocks on the expo glass. That's a no-go for us as we now have large flatstock screens and require a big vac table. This would necessitate two expo units which is no fun.
The MHM style system is indeed superior to all because it was clearly engineered as a component of the entire press not an afterthought or an attempt to bring other sloppy press design elements under control. Registering the films to the screen accurately is the easy part, many ways to skin that cat. Where it gets tricky is having the press under control. On all the presses I've had the closest thing to a "zero" position has been a square bullseye sticker half-assedly and crookedly slapped on the micro plate with some little arrow pointers which is roughly no help at all. Throw in the fact that most manual presses can't hold their camber position (front o.c.) with heavy roller frames and it quickly becomes obvious that its your press not your pre-reg approach that needs some re-thinking. It's exciting to see the sroque machines offering a similar fpu and pin clamping system, maybe others are seeing the light here finally.
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How did this thing perform on the 6 color jobs you had?
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good, I wouldn't give it a very good. I really need to retune the press. I know that a couple heads are a bit off. I think one head was dropped when it came off the truck because the head has always been jacked up.
All-in-all it shaved about an hour off the setup....mind you a relative newbie is doing the setups.
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an hour? what are you setting up that takes an hour?
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I am pretty sure I stated I have a newbie doing that. I personally would have had the job setup in about the same amount of time the system took the new guy.
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quick hijack - Jason, I just ordered a gallon of the Kiwo discharge emulsion from nazdar. . looks promising, thanks for the tip.
Brad -it's those freakin squeegie /flood holders. I thought a '99 would have air clamps, but I guess not. My reg is easy, it's the rest of the set up that takes too long. . .
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No crap, those things take FOREVER. I do like air screen locks. for a newbie to setup a 6 color job in 25 minutes is pretty dang good I think. I would like to get him under 15 including inked and squeegeed.
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I need more squeegies and flood bars, that would shave off some time. I also investigated other holding devices instead of those clamps. . I think all in all, it's easier to just buy a new machine.
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agreed on that. I have cut some time by putting the clamps on the press. 3 in the top front "hinge" and one in one of the open holes in the top. All clamps are on the press at all times. It really cut out a lot.
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good, I wouldn't give it a very good. I really need to retune the press. I know that a couple heads are a bit off. I think one head was dropped when it came off the truck because the head has always been jacked up.
All-in-all it shaved about an hour off the setup....mind you a relative newbie is doing the setups.
Maybe a dumb idea, but why not put that in position 2 or wherever you have your flash?
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do you have squeegie /flood bar regulators or are you using the thumb screw kind? that is a pain constantly setting and re setting the pressures. I understand there is a conversion kit you can buy to have the pressure set, flip the switch and it dumps the air off of the squeegie.
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not a bad idea, it would probably be easier to machine a couple parts to even it out. it looks like it's bent inwards, very strange
Homer, which ones are you talking about? The switches that give pressure to the squeegee/floodbar? That itself is a half-assed aftermarket idea from M&R.
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I have 2 kits kicking around someplace. I paid like 100.00 each for these damn things and they are not what I wanted. I want the squeegies to go to a resting position after the stroke, not constant pressure on the screens. There is always pressure on the screen from the squeegie. It makes a micro adjust a battle. I never installed them - It's about 20.00 worth of parts from SMC, my buddy used to work there. . .should have returned them but it's too late.
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yeah, the constant pressure also messes up the emulsion there. I can't stand it, let me know if a kit works.
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Has this company gone out of business? I guess it did not work so well?
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I'm the creator of the registration jig. I will try to give an update this evening after I finish work.
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Has this company gone out of business? I guess it did not work so well?
I would say not out of business but in suspended mode because I never had time to get near other makes of presses whether automatic or manual to ensure it would work with them I created the Bullseye about 2 and a half years ago and have been using it every since for my preregistration. I've sold about 8 of them. I just stopped trying to market it due to lack of time with trying to run a screen printing/sign shop with just me, my wife and a part-timer. I've sold one to Brad aka mk162 and I've been meaning to call him to ask how it's working out for him. Just like any prereg system out there, how it works depends on how well the films are lined up and press calibration. For me, the original one I made, "you would have to pry it from my cold dead hands" to take it from me. I'm not going to say that I have dead on registration every time, however for me 9 out of ten jobs are perfect I will say that if the registration is a tad off that it only takes an educated guess with the micro knobs to dial it in. In fact, that's all I will have is an educated guess because I always block out my reg marks on my screens before they reach the press.
As far as improvements to the system goes, I would like to have time to get near a machinist to improve the clamping system. As it stands, if I'm really using a close off-contact, then I will have to adjust it to it's furthest distance from the screen before I register the screens to ensure the clamps don't make contact with the mesh. To me, that's a small sacrifice to make and still much quicker than manually using the micros.
It's the kind of thing that you know you have something good, but trying to reach everyone in the same field is not possible when you are the small guy. On the same note, if I had 30 screenprinters watching me go through the setup process and how quick it is that 25 would walk away with one.
Maybe Brad could chime in and give his opinion of it.
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the system is 95% there. I made some mods to mine and it's sweet. For the price, you cannot beat it. No carrier sheets, simple to use, it works on the gauntlet and RPM, no problem. I did shorten the top of the jig for the gauntlet, it wouldn't have needed anything for the RPM.
The main drawback of the system is the registration table. Doug was nice enough to send me one made of plexi...what a HUGE difference. I turned it into a vacuum table and dropped the need for double sided tape...it's made a big difference in the amount of time needed to align a film.
All in all....i would buy it again, in a heartbeat. As a matter of fact, I might buy an extra jig to leave on the table so it cuts trips to the darkroom.