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screen printing => General Screen Printing => Topic started by: Doug S on April 27, 2012, 07:17:50 PM
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Just wondering what your opinions are on the shurloc frames as opposed to Newman Roller frames. In the last year, I've purchased 24 shurloc frames ready to assemble and 24 conversion kits. Myself, I like the frames ready to assemble, but I'm not so happy with the conversion kits due to how thick it makes the frame itself. The 110 mesh stretched to 40 newtons and has settled after approximately 50 jobs to 32 newtons which I consider acceptable. The 156 mesh stretched to 38 newtons and has settled at 30. However, the 230 and 305 mesh stretched to 28 and has settled at 23. All of these frames were stretched the same day about 11 months ago.
I guess what I'm trying to ask after all of that is, would it be worth moving to Newmans? Would it increase ink lay down and quality of the print that much to justify the initial investment? I figured some of you seasoned veterans could help me out with this one.
Thanks, Doug
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Just wondering what your opinions are on the shurloc frames as opposed to Newman Roller frames. In the last year, I've purchased 24 shurloc frames ready to assemble and 24 conversion kits. Myself, I like the frames ready to assemble, but I'm not so happy with the conversion kits due to how thick it makes the frame itself. The 110 mesh stretched to 40 newtons and has settled after approximately 50 jobs to 32 newtons which I consider acceptable. The 156 mesh stretched to 38 newtons and has settled at 30. However, the 230 and 305 mesh stretched to 28 and has settled at 23. All of these frames were stretched the same day about 11 months ago.
I guess what I'm trying to ask after all of that is, would it be worth moving to Newmans? Would it increase ink lay down and quality of the print that much to justify the initial investment? I figured some of you seasoned veterans help me out with this one.
Thanks, Doug
I have thought about the same issues and am curious to hear too!
pierre
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What kind of mesh are you stretching onto those EZs Doug?
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What kind of mesh are you stretching onto those EZs Doug?
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Mostly Saati mesh for the 110, 156, 230, and 305's. I have about 5 150's of the muramaki mesh.
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I don't have any problem with statics, or frames resembling them, but I feel I'd have to have a seriously massive stock of them to be able to match up multicolor jobs like I do with less than a hundred NRF's. --Unless their QC is to the point where they all stabilize at the same tension per mesh type, which would make them pretty unusually sweet. Any of you guys running EZ's have numbers on where they stabilize/how consistent they are panel-to-panel?
The only thing that strikes me functionally about the EZ frames would be matching tension on process or other high-tolerance jobs. I love the fact I can tweak my rollers to get within a newton of each other, and I know they will register properly.
I know some people have issues getting into doing bolt mesh on rollers--there is a bit of a learning curve, but being able to stretch a frame for five bucks (or less) and a bit of labor is great IMO.
If you're not having registration issues, and you can hold good tensions on what you're using, probably not much reason to change. The EZ frames certainly look as if they take less time than rollers.
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What kind of mesh are you stretching onto those EZs Doug?
Mostly Saati mesh for the 110, 156, 230, and 305's. I have about 5 150's of the muramaki mesh.
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Well, I'd say the answer to your question lies in whether or not the EZ system can take your chosen mesh up to the optimal tension for each particular variety and hold it within your own tolerances once there.
I don't have numbers for Saati or know what thread diameters you are using but those look like they may be a touch low for standard thread thickness'. Every mesh has it's sweet spot regarding tension where the openings are nice and square and stress/strain across the screen is balanced. (fancy terms gleaned from Joe Clark's many enumerations on screen variables)
From what you've recorded, I would probably be alright with EZs running all S mesh provided, like Foo noted, they had each panel dialed. And they better for the price of those suckers. I don't think I'd save any time and labor though considering that you need to put each frame in the jig and stretch each side of the frame, let sit, and complete the stretching. In that time, I could have built a roller frame from bolt mesh while one was on the table tensioning. That's me though, not everyone likes loading bolt mesh into rollers or is comfortable with and fast at doing it and not everyone has or wants to make the investment in a roller master which is what makes the process efficient and consistent- you build one frame while the other is tensioning.
Rather than arguing one way or the other I'd say it comes down to how badly you want or need that finer control that only rollers can deliver. I couldn't really say if the work I put into our screens is called for on most of our print jobs, it probably isn't, but I will say I never have to worry about the technicality of the job in terms of the screen itself. I can't recall every having moire' in fact. Any issues with the higher-end work are typically in other areas outside the screen, like my rip/films, my inks, my exposure process, etc.
Some might find that a compromise is in order with statics or EZs for most jobs and rollers for those high mesh, close tolerance runs. I just hate running multiple frame types so we do it all the same way.
Happy Saturday folks, hope you all aren't slaving away like me.
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Just wanted to say thanks for the insight. I'm not having much trouble with the shurlocs other than the cost of the panels and the PIA of the conversion frames. I just want to do the best quality work possible and wanted to make sure my choice of frames wasn't keeping me from doing better than I am. Thanks again.
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My opinion is, if you want to do your best work, go to retensionables. Just saying.
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for what it's worth, ive gone from statics, to panel frames and now i'm changing everything over to M3s. I wish I started with them, I'd have a nice collection, instead I've got a shop full of panel frames and a slowly growing collection of rollers. I quit messing around with "seems simple and cheap" type of things and our prints are 1k x better. It took a lot of time, money and aggravation for me to realize saving a buck on a screen is foolish -when you are a SCREEN printer, it's the most important part of the equation. It's a piece of equipment, one that I can control and eliminate from my problem solving when there is an issue. .I avoided rollers for so long due to cost and the dreaded learning curve, I was more afraid of them than anything. . .but they are easier than you'd think with the proper tools. . .but that's just my past experience . . .
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Worst part of rollers is the maintenance to take full advantage, but there's nothin' like pulling out a nice tight screen to coat with emulsion and for next to no off-contact in your setup. The convenience of being able to re-mesh quickly after busting a screen is a plus, too.
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I worked in a large shop for 14 years and recently opened my own place. All I knew were M3s, but when I opened my own place I couldnt afford them so I thought I would try statics. Guess what, I PROBABLY WOULD NEVER GO BACK TO ROLLERS AGAIN! THAT SIMPLE! I was used to doing 12 to 14 color sim process jobs on rollers and I can do it just as easy on statics. They are easier to clean, last longer, and I dont have to remesh them. Some people are gonna disagree and I understand, this is my opinion and have TONS of experience with both.
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My opinion is, if you want to do your best work, go to retensionables. Just saying.
I heard there was some fool close to you that uses easy fames. :-*
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I worked in a large shop for 14 years and recently opened my own place. All I knew were M3s, but when I opened my own place I couldnt afford them so I thought I would try statics. Guess what, I PROBABLY WOULD NEVER GO BACK TO ROLLERS AGAIN! THAT SIMPLE! I was used to doing 12 to 14 color sim process jobs on rollers and I can do it just as easy on statics. They are easier to clean, last longer, and I dont have to remesh them. Some people are gonna disagree and I understand, this is my opinion and have TONS of experience with both.
I've got a good bit of experience with both and I have the exact opposite opinion, but that's what is great about screen printing. I don't know how one could print with newmans that were properly stretched then go to statics and like them, but oh well, I'd quit before I went back to low tension screens.
I've got about 60 EZ frames in production and most of them are starting their 3rd year, some are on their 2nd year so I know them well. I think they are great, but they are not as good as properly used Newman rollers. They will be good for that shop that wants something more that statics can't provide but don't want to fully commit to the effort that rollers have to have to work to their potential. I'll write more on the EZ's later, right now I'm typing all this on my iPhone while traveling back from Dallas.
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This is a "there is no one answer" thread. I'm in a different niche than most. I do mostly retail and catalog a butt load of screens. Most of my designs are 6 and seven color sim process. I can not afford to catalog rollers or easy frames in my line of work. Statics work well for what I do. Having said that, I do have about 40 easy frames that I use for work that are "one timers" I really like them.
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I worked in a large shop for 14 years and recently opened my own place. All I knew were M3s, but when I opened my own place I couldnt afford them so I thought I would try statics. Guess what, I PROBABLY WOULD NEVER GO BACK TO ROLLERS AGAIN! THAT SIMPLE! I was used to doing 12 to 14 color sim process jobs on rollers and I can do it just as easy on statics. They are easier to clean, last longer, and I dont have to remesh them. Some people are gonna disagree and I understand, this is my opinion and have TONS of experience with both.
Not going to disagree at all--seems like a lot of people (especially those short on time) are better off paying a little more to get good statics and keep them properly remeshed. I should have mentioned, I have just as many statics as rollers, myself, and I don't have a problem with reasonably high-tolerance jobs with them--and they are easier to clean and prep for mesh than rollers, for sure.
The 'last longer' comment is really interesting to me though--I've never heard of anyone getting more useful life out of a static than a roller.
Or maybe it's like paraphrasing the old smoking adage--rollers take twenty jobs off the life of your screen--the crappy ones at the end? :)
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I have no experience either way so I should keep my mouth shut, but you guys know that isn't my style.
The decision to me came down to "in the long run they (rollers) will be cheaper if treated decently (don't bust your mesh being stupid) and in the process I will get screens that are supposed to be better."
Not often in life do you get the "BETTER" product for actually LESS money (albeit, a little more work.)
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I started buying the EZ frames in 09' and bought about 10 at a time to get our inventory up without killing us financially. The tension levels between like mesh counts are really close, within 2 newtons of each other so all of our 156's have settled in at 30-32 newtons after several years of use. I love the lack of maintenance that the ez's require and they work great with most everything you'd want to print. I'd certainly not mind having a shop full of them but I've got about 150 newmans right now and only 75 being good and in production, the rest of them need to be cleaned and stretched. I really like the ez's, but for the higher end work I always lean on the newmans because they are just better in every category except maintenance.
If your shop doesn't have the time to deal with newmans then the ez's will be a much better option than statics. I know our shop has really benefitted from higher tension screens and the debate about statics versus retens/high tension frames will always rage on. The benefits of high tension screens may not be that noticeable to some shops, others won't print without them, it's pretty shop specific. I know that I struggle setting jobs up with 15 newton screens and I have to add significantly to the print pressure and when I do that, it screws up everything else I'm trying to do. If we did a ton of light colored garments or just discharge WB prints then I'd probably lean towards a screen that is maintenance free because I don't think tension is as big of a variable to control when doing that type of work. Now when printing on darks with plastisol ink, I think that screen tension is the difference between a great print and one that simply finds it's way into the box and out the door.
One of the reasons why I'm one of those guys who pushes high tension is because I've seen the difference from going from static alums to newman/shurloc ez's in our shop and I really observed the changes closely. I paid so much attention to this change simply to make sure that it was really necessary. I didn't want to invest all the time and money on high tension if I didn't have to. At the time we made the change I was the printer, supervisor, part time screen tech, etc. so I saw the changes the whole way through the process and as busy as we are, all the things that become easier and faster with higher tension add up to less hours per week to do the same production versus low tension screens. It's one of the main reasons why we have doubled our production capabilities since making the change. Granted, we are better at everything compared to 4 years ago and all that comes into play, but there is no doubt in my mind the role that the newmans and shurloc ez frames played. That is why I'm so passionate about it, but I'm also one of those guys who used static alums exclusively for several years and made some nice prints with them. We still have a small supply of statics here that we use for really easy jobs so I'm not totally against using them.
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Just to revive this topic. Anyone else have any new experiences with the EZ system?
Side note. What were people using as a permanent block out around the edge of their frames?