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screen printing => Newbie => Topic started by: Shanarchy on May 14, 2011, 09:58:26 AM
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I seriously want to throw the towel in right now. I ran a job of 150 shirts on the auto last night. My first time printing with the auto. 2 color front (pink and teal) on black tees. I used opaque inks and print-flash printed each color. I know that way made the job take way longer time wise, but I did not want to play with an underbase on my first run. I was hoping for less variables to need to fine tune. I used 160 mesh Newmans 32n and triple duro squeegees. These shirts look like pure crap. These are almost as bad as the first job I ever printed on a manual. I honestly do not know how I am going to give these to the customer tomorrow (event is Sunday), let alone charge them.
I do not even know where to begin to ask for help. But the colors covered awful and the pink ink kept creeping under the screen where I would have to constantly wipe the under side of the screen. So the end result was a very muddy spotty looking print.
So I guess my first question is why would I have the ink building up so bad beneath the screen? When printing manually it would usually be from too low of a squeegee angle. But I really played around to find what setting would give me the most opaque smooth print I could.
Anyways, I am totally lost right now. I don't know what I should be adjusting. Is there any kind of a troubleshooting guide for auto printers out there?
I am going to head back to the shop now. It was a late night and I hope I was being over critical. But they are definitely not the same quality as when I print on the manual.
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I think that's par for the course. I could not get the white ink down for ever! 'kept thinking I was going backwards with the print quality.
you will get there, give it some time. In the meanwhile, do what needs to be done, which ever way you can. It would not hurt to contact somebody who knows the press (BBB actually joined here) and ask some questions. At least there are plenty of Anatol owners/reps around.
hang in!
pierre
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Hey buddy, didn't you do a test print?
If the test looked like crap why did you keep going..?
maybe you should have saved the first run for during the week when you could have replaced the shirts at least instead of the situation that has occurred..
I'm sorry I know I am not helping any and you already know this.
you could always try to get ahold of some shirts somehow and redo on the manual..
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Yes it is almost like learning all over again.
Its hard to get in the mind set to use the higher meshes.
Sounds like the squeegee pressure was to much for 1 thing.
If you have to "160" ink deposit and hit the next color the next color squeegee...pancakes the last color on the shirt and spread it out.
Then you get blurred and pop. I hate pop. Get some Pam cooking spray or silicon spray and spray the printside of the screens and just pat dry.
I would never try to print pink on darks with out an underbase. Even after the shirt comes out the other end of the dryer (for me anyway) still gases to a different color
in the next hour or 2.
I call it auto frustration.
There are many days that an auto job starts to print right on the last shirt.
The hardest thing for me is to take the time to heat up the tables first...MAKES A HUGE DIFFERENCE.
Then the phone rings and you have to start all over again.
Yes heat up again.
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First I hope the shirts weren't 50/50's.
I know you said you didn't want to mess with an UB, but I doubt I would do it any other way.
Here's my thought process on this, and I'll assume you have one flash.
I'd look at the UB and determine the lowest mesh count that can hold the amount of detail in the design (lowest within reason, 110 max probably).
Then I would look at the amount of coverage on the two overprinting colors as well as make a judgement as which of the two is the least translucent color. I'd choose the lowest coverage and/or most opaque of the colors to go down on the base first.
I'd put the first color down on the base through a finer mesh like 230 maybe, the second on a more open mesh if needed for coverage or opacity, like a 160 or thereabouts.
I'd put the 230 color on a the head right after the flash and the other a couple heads later to allow cooling, and make sure the pallets are very warm, hot before starting. I'd run a round of defectives to make sure the ink in the print that's getting stepped on does not smear or stick excessively on the last screen. Fine tune your squeegee pressure/angles to bear minimum, steeper anlges mean less ink down, less smearing.
We use this method daily, but you do need an ink that won't build up too badly. Wilflex MX ink is what we'd use for the colors. I'm not saying this is the only way to do it, but what works very well for us. Keep trying, you'll get it.
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Underbase....Underbase.... Underbase. I know its too late now but you have to base a pink on a black shirt. There is no way to make that look good without it. That sucks you have the situation your in but you would have been better off stopping and adding a base to the print.
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Don't be afraid to base or reduce the inks down some.
And it even helps you use a higher mesh.
You get a cleaner break or shear of the ink load in the screen.
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I don't have an auto, so I should not even be typing on this thread, but the one thing that caught my eye was -
the pink ink kept creeping under the screen where I would have to constantly wipe the under side of the screen
Could that be from too hard (or too steep angle) on the flood stroke?
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Oh man, that sucks. Best scenario, like the other folks, 160 white base, choked around the edges so it doesn't peek out from under the pink and teal, flashed, teal 2nd (because it's darker and doesn't need a flash) then the pink. The pink stays bright because it doesn't get stepped on, and the teal should be fine even stepped on without a flash. At least it works here that way. Top colors on 230, maybe as low as 200, but that's starting to get thick. So sorry bud...
Steve
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Hi guys,
OK, so I am looking at the shirts again. They are not as bad as I thought. Or are they? They are definitely not on to par to with my standard quality. Now I am trying to determine how passable are they, do I offer the customer a discount, etc.
I think the biggest issue may be no underbase.
I am going to pop the screens on the manual and see how they print. I have p-f-p these colors on the manual before for one color stuff and they usually look great. But, that may help me determine where the issue is stemming from.
Here is how I printed this, and yes, I know this is crazy, but... pink p-f-p-f teal p-f-p. So, yes you are reading this correct, I sent it around 4 times. My reasoning was I don't care how long it takes, I just want to get my feet wet and no under base eliminates a factor.
In hindsight I should have printed them on the manual and waited for a job being printed on lights, but too late for that now. At first I didn't think they looked that bad, but after I was very disappointed.
So I guess my first question for going forward is where should I have flood stroke angle, speed and pressure.
Squeegee angle, pressure and speed.
So it looks like I have 2 main factors; squeegee and flood. Which is the more important variable to play with first?
Also, how do I adjust squeegee pressure? Anatol horizon (all air). The chopper cylinder turns, one on each side but which way adds more pressure? The tech told me to start at 10 and adjust from there. I am assuming the higher the number the more pressure?
Pierre, That is great that Bill (bbb) is on here! He is a great guy and no one would know that press better than him! I will definitely be in touch with him soon.
Side thought, I was thinking about starting a 'manual to auto' thread to consolidate all my millions of future questions in. In think this could serve as a nice reference thread down the line for anyone who is making that transition and i would all be in one place. Good idea? Bad idea?
Please keep the feedback coming!
Thanks guys (and gals)!
Shane
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If it makes you feel any better, my first job on an auto was a 6 color front, 6 color back on dark shirts with two flashes. 400 pieces, and about 100 of them weren't passable. I drove 6 hours to deliver, then drove 8 hours back stopping at two suppliers to pick up f'ed up shirts, came back to the shop, printed the replacements and drove 6 hours back to deliver them. It gets better quickly. Took me about two weeks to get somewhat comfortable printing on an auto...and even to this day, I find it more difficult than manual printing. But thats mainly because mine is out of whack right now.
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Rightie tightie...leftie loosie
In most cases
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If it makes you feel any better, my first job on an auto was a 6 color front, 6 color back on dark shirts with two flashes. 400 pieces, and about 100 of them weren't passable. I drove 6 hours to deliver, then drove 8 hours back stopping at two suppliers to pick up f'ed up shirts, came back to the shop, printed the replacements and drove 6 hours back to deliver them.
WOW!!!
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My first auto job was a 6 color on black. Had all the wrong meshes and did not look good either.
I still hear that pop in my sleep. :-*
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I just want to get my feet wet and no under base eliminates a factor.
Heres where you went wrong. You did not eliminate a factor you caused several more that do not work for you. Most of the time taking the shortcut bites you in the ass. Had you set it up properly it would have been one trip around with a nice print.
What you can do is go on youtube and watch how some of the autos are printing. You can get a feeling of speed, angles and pressure. If you know the mechanics behind printing you will get it down pretty quickly.
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If it makes you feel any better, my first job on an auto was a 6 color front, 6 color back on dark shirts with two flashes. 400 pieces, and about 100 of them weren't passable. I drove 6 hours to deliver, then drove 8 hours back stopping at two suppliers to pick up f'ed up shirts, came back to the shop, printed the replacements and drove 6 hours back to deliver them. It gets better quickly. Took me about two weeks to get somewhat comfortable printing on an auto...and even to this day, I find it more difficult than manual printing. But thats mainly because mine is out of whack right now.
What, no couriers? Damn, that's a lot of driving...
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Sorry your having such trouble..most of the people hear are right. You should have underbased. I set the machine up quite a bit, but usually James ran it. Im pretty sure turning the controls on top clockwise lower, or increase squegee presssure. Must have had a lot of ink on bottom sending them around 4 times .. and all that flashing would make those pallets hot enough to semi cure the ink on contact .Donnie Miller runs the same machine..maybe he can help more than me. But not UB was the problem and printed and flashed too much. Your agjustable squegee works just like a manual, straight up, less ink put down, more angle, more ink. Slower speed will put more ink down. sorry you had problems, but try something easier on next job. You'll get it..
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email me Ill give you my hm phone
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A few items that were suggested to me when I started on an auto...................
Make sure you boards are at least 150 degrees. It all works better when boards are warm.
Then on the other hand, be sure your shirt has time to cool after flashing. You might want to have an empty station after the flash. Sometimes I add a small fan to help cool the print.
One day you will look back at this and say "What was I thinking".
Good luck
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Sorry your having such trouble..most of the people hear are right. You should have underbased. I set the machine up quite a bit, but usually James ran it. Im pretty sure turning the controls on top clockwise lower, or increase squegee presssure. Must have had a lot of ink on bottom sending them around 4 times .. and all that flashing would make those pallets hot enough to semi cure the ink on contact .Donnie Miller runs the same machine..maybe he can help more than me. But not UB was the problem and printed and flashed too much. Your agjustable squegee works just like a manual, straight up, less ink put down, more angle, more ink. Slower speed will put more ink down. sorry you had problems, but try something easier on next job. You'll get it..
Hi Bill!
Great to see you on here. How has everything been? Do you remember about what kind of angle you would keep your squeegee and flood bars at?
you can e-mail me at mackie_shane@yahoo.com
The more I think about it the more I think the lack of underbase killed me on this one.
Live and learn.
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I think that your right. Flashing that much got those pallets pretty hot. I'm doin fine, (not worrying about a job due tomorrow)lol. You'll get it right, just start out on something easier, and dont try black with no UB. Angle of squegee varies job and screen to job and screen. Thats why its adjustable. Like I said, use your manual experience to guide you. I rember trying more upright, the better. Just watch the flood bar doesnt push thru the screen...Nothing to do about this job, but at least watch it the first few shirts, and if you have problems, fix them or go to manual, before 150 are done...will write you on email. Nice to hear from you
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I would love to see a manual to auto thread! I have been so busy I have not even been able to move my javlin into place yet. Hopefully I will have some downtime this week to start setting things up.
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Screen printing ink is designed to stay put - this is why you can turn a bucket upside down, and the ink won't pour. Slow shearing force doesn't help the ink spread across the shirt to produce a uniform deposit.
Many drug induced printers, grasp for a chemical additive that reduces viscosity - BUT that defeats what the ink designer was aiming at because the ink will penetrate the shirt and you won't get a film or coating.
Fast blade speed, low off-contact, high mesh tension and a blade that stands up to the resistant forces (thick ink and mesh tension).
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Screen printing ink is designed to stay put - this is why you can turn a bucket upside down, and the ink won't pour. Slow shearing force doesn't help the ink spread across the shirt to produce a uniform deposit.
Many drug inducer printers grasp for a chemical additive that reduces viscosity - BUT that defeats what the ink designer was aiming at because the ink will penetrate the shirt and you won't get a film or coating.
Fast blade speed, low off-contact, high mesh tension and a blade that stands up to the resistant forces (thick ink and mesh tension).
Thanks... I'll be trying a faster blade speed. I've been guilty of reducing ink and also of double stroking to get the mesh cleared.
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Give me a call Shane.... (580-748-0601) No need to reinvent the wheel. We've all been there and I made a few calls myself along the way.
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I don't know how in the hell I missed this thread, just now saw it. I would have loved to have been involved with this when it was relevant. I wish there was a horizon here in town that I could go look at to get a good feel of the angles, speed, pressure and all that stuff so I could also help you out.
Pink on black, even the most opaque pink I've ever seen wouldn't have looked good pfp without a good base. I would probably go lower on the underbase than most are suggesting, just because of the poor opacity in most pink inks, maybe 110-137. And I've been slowly speeding up our print speeds lately and we are printing 3-4 times faster today than we were a month ago. And it doesn't make sense, but the ink deposit is much better at those faster speeds as well.
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Set your flood bars at 0 angle and your squeegee at 15 degrees. Dial the food bar depth to where the bar makes a slight noise on the screen when you drag it across the screen. Don't mess with the pressure gauge on the front of the head. It won't hurt if you do but a much better way to increase or decrease the squeegee pressure is to dial it up up or down. A good point to start at is around 15 on the bar. If you are printing half tones, this may be a bit much.
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so you guys are saying MORE ink deposit with a faster print stroke? we have always thought faster print stroke = less ink deposit and less dot gain. I have to try this out Monday. Or tomorrow if I can't wait. I am switching back to Quick white and that is pretty thick compared to the xenon white we were using, I will have to play around with squeegies again, I hate like hell to add some reducer to it. This squeegie from Pierre seems to be badass so far.
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so you guys are saying MORE ink deposit with a faster print stroke? we have always thought faster print stroke = less ink deposit and less dot gain. I have to try this out Monday. Or tomorrow if I can't wait. I am switching back to Quick white and that is pretty thick compared to the xenon white we were using, I will have to play around with squeegies again, I hate like hell to add some reducer to it. This squeegie from Pierre seems to be badass so far.
I don't think anyone would really argue that slower print speed will deposit more ink, but I think that when printing plastisol it's more about getting the best ink deposit and not the most ink deposited. Depending on the ink your printing with, it is possible to get a "better" ink deposit by speeding up the stroke and ejecting (shearing) the ink ONTO the shirt instead of pushing the ink through the stencil and INTO the shirt So with a good white ink, like quick white, I think you'll find that giving a hard flood and filling the stencil with ink, then using a faster print stroke will yield you a better ink deposit, more opaque, smoother, etc. than using a slower print stroke.
I was encouraged to try this technique by Bill Hood a while back and I've slowly increased our print speed and have noticed a better overall ink deposit. I've known for a long time the goal is to print plastisol ink on top of the shirt and not into the shirt, but for whatever reason, I was stuck in the thought process of printing slow to deposit more ink and get enough opacity for the top colors to pop.
I will warn you that this technique may not work using a thick thread, low percentage open area mesh count, and a really thick, long bodied ink. It takes the right combo of ink and mesh count to get that perfect shear or ejection of ink onto the shirt. Your squeegee angle will be very upright, and will act as a tool to basically cut the ink from the stencil.
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Not necessarily MORE ink, but all the ink 'metered' by the mesh + stencil thickness. Speed helps the ink flow easily but the mesh thickness determines ink deposit. Granted, because shirts are porous, ink can go INTO the shirt and even print the platen. This is a waste of money.
Wetting, is the ability of a liquid to spread across the surface of a shirt to produce a uniform, continuous film or clear the mesh. If the ink doesn't flow easily, it won't clean out of the mesh - that's why we double stroke. That's why it takes a few strokes to get ink flowing after we let rest for a while.
The straighter the blade, the better it can resist hydroplaning or floating on top, rather than scraping the ink across the mesh. No blade contact with the inside of the screen, no transfer of ink through the holes in the mesh.
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Wow im glad i read this before breaking my cherry on my auto, i didnt even realize it was you Shane. Glad to see you my brotha.
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Hey Shane how is the priinting going on the auto? I am close to getting a 6/8 all air Horizon myself and wondering if you have an update for us.