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screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: whitewater on May 16, 2011, 10:26:34 AM
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I am working towards an Automatic.
I would like to hear the experiences from those of you that have them.
Did you get it used or new?
What was your experience in the learning curve?
Where did you get your info on setting it up and getting the kinks out for your particular press?
Your likes and dislikes?
Do you wish you would have went with a different manufacturer after using the one you have?
If you did get a used one do you wish you would have gotten a new one?
Sorry there are so many questions, trying to do some homework on this since I have nothing to draw from in experience.
Thanks
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I am working towards an Automatic.
Don't stop, keep going, it will change your life.
I would like to hear the experiences from those of you that have them.
I have a M&R Sportsman, I am a small fish but it has been awesome for us. We can now print what took several days before, in 1 or 2 days a week if we need to. We are now doing more jobs, larger jobs, and the prints are way more consistant.
Did you get it used or new?
New, and I wouldn't change that. I wanted someone to stand behind it if there was a problem for my first auto. Second auto I wouldn't be scared of used, but will probably do new again when the time comes.
What was your experience in the learning curve?
Sure, but honestly I expected it to be much worse than it has actually been. Biggest change for us was just moving up to higher mesh screens since we printed manual. Other than that its not really been much of a learning curve.
Where did you get your info on setting it up and getting the kinks out for your particular press?
Didn't really have any kinks or anything like that, the manufacture set up the press, trained us for a few days and thats been it.
Your likes and dislikes?
Likes, well everything. I think I wouldn't change a thing about the press other than maybe should have got 2-4 more heads. But its not been a big problem. I would say go at least 8/10, 10/12 or larger if you got it.
Do you wish you would have went with a different manufacturer after using the one you have?
Nope, very happy with our choice.
If you did get a used one do you wish you would have gotten a new one?
Bought new wouldn't change that.
Sorry there are so many questions, trying to do some homework on this since I have nothing to draw from in experience.
Thanks
Don't say sorry for having questions, you shouldn't buy until you have all your answers and only buy from the company that fits you best. I think there are several quality manufactures in the game. I don't think anyone makes a complete POS. I think there are presses and companies that fit people better than others much like Ford/Chevy/Dodge and so on. Buy what you think is the best fit for yourself. But yes do yourself the favor of shopping them all.
A side note, be ready for all the extra expenses with getting an auto. Electric upgrades, Gas, Compressor/Chiller and install of it, fork lifts/pallet jacks, so on and so on. I know myself I spent around 10k in extra's, its not hard to do before you know it. So remember when you are talking about the cost of your new equipment, dont forget the costs to run wire/air and so on for it. You will bleed money for a period of time, but worth it!
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thanks for taking the time replying...I've talked to a few that have automatics and do know about the extras...
thank you
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just a quick add . . . there are fords, chevys and dodges, but lets not forget the vw, bmw and mercedes.
My thinking is that your press will probably be similar to what you drive. ppl that prefer the american cars will probably prefer an american press. ppl driving imports will probably look in that direction. yes, it is a generalization, but most likely a rather accurate one.
get as many heads as you can. 8/10 at a minimum!
bought used, but it was only 4 months old. Would not suggest buying used for a first auto (unless it is not really used like ours).
main issue with ours is that we did not get enough heads (8/10). I am already looking into something bigger and it had barely been two years. My guess we'll upgrade soon . . .
huge learning curve, but I did not have much printing experience when we got it. If you are doing simulated process now, it will not be as big of a deal. If all you do is spot, it will be bigger. The biggest problem for me was figuring out printing on the darks. The plattens have to be wormed up and the printing speed needs to be consistent. If you fall behind, the quartz flash cools down, your shirt is not flashed and it sticks to the bottom of the next screen. Then when you turn it, it pulls of and you are in for a mess. Getting the timing down on flashing was the hardest part. Printing white will take a little too. What you have been doing by feel will now have to be done by a machine. As you printed by hand you adjusted the pressure, speed, angle and all that stuff instinctively, on the auto it has to be preset. You can speed up, reduce pressure and do the adjustments on the press, but it takes time to figure out what exactly needs to be done. . .
so much for the quick add!
pierre
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Got a brand new, (first one sold) M&R Diamondback.
Been great. My reasons:
I'm in Illinois, they are 2.
Support, none better
was told I'd get more/do more business with an auto. That was true.
Lengthly discussion, give me a call.
Terry
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I bought a used Brown Elctra 6x8. It has been good for what we do, mainly 1,2 & 3 color, spot colors.
I like this because there was no extra compresser to buy. The auto runs on 110. The flashes runs on 220.
I looked in your profile to see where you are. No information.
If you can, go to a show and see the different types of machines. Ask as many questions as you can.
Good luck
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We've bought several presses in the past. We had more problems with the used presses than the new ones. My thought is that when you buy used you run the risk of inherenting other people's problems, bad habits etc. I'd have a tech you trust check a used press before you buy.
Learning curve from manual was substantial, and even from one auto brand to another. I'd recommend bringing your first auto in during slower months if you have them to give you time to get used to it.
Set ups and kinks were worked out by the manu.
Get as many heads as you can afford/fit.
Very happy with the current machines I have (MHM E-type).
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One of my favorite topics! If it's your first auto, I'd agree with most everyone in saying buy new, or at the very least very lightly used. I think servo indexer and ac printheads are worth every penny as features and I won't buy a press without those two options, along with central off contact (or something equivalent). Those 3 features are a must for me. I took the auto buying process way more serious than most and spent years researching all the various automatics on the market. I took pages and pages of notes and then made a chart with all of the finalists and compared and contrasted all of the features of those presses and made sure I covered everything that I could. I talked to shops who ran the presses in question and tried to leave no stone unturned. There hasn't been a day go by that I haven't been happy with our purchase, it's been an unbelievable press and it was such a fun process to go through, I can't wait to do it again.
I'd try to find those features that you think will serve you the best with your shop and way of doing things. If a press is filled with features you don't find important, then move on. If a certain press doesn't have those things that you think you'd like in a press, mark it off the list. Trust me, there are way more good options for automatics available today than there ever have been and it's not even close. There is an auto to fill just about any niche. I love automatic talk.
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so alan...which one do you have?
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so alan...which one do you have?
10 color RPM Revolution.
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We bought used BUT - like most, I suggest to buy new for the reasons of: tech support aka " how the fk do I work this thing?!", installation, have a problem? they will fix it, latest and greatest technology, you will print faster, less set up time, all the bugs are worked out from the older machines, less down time, faster & better print speed, new parallel pallets, better toys -flashes, pneumatic squeegie holders all that fun stuff, longer ownership life out of the machine. . .
we went used, cash money -done- just to get into an automatic , now I know or have a better idea of what we really need. We have a 6 color, I think I may go jump Alan on a dark street and snag his 10 color because that is ideal. anything under 8 for us now -would be kinda pushing it. Monthly payment of 2k, what's that, maybe 2 -3 jobs, Terri is right, when you go auto, the flood gates will open, I don't know why but it did for us too. I guess you have more time marketing or something. . .
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I've had both used and new..... nothing but new in the future.
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I'd like to give you some features that I think are very valuable to have on any press you choose. Air activated squeegee and floodbar locks, as well as air activated screen locks. Those 2 features have saved us so much time during setups it's ridiculous. I couldn't imaging having to manually lock sq and fb's and screens now that we've done it with the flip of a switch for a few years.
Some printers might not care what kind of functionality that is available on each printhead, but I have some very strong opinions on this subject. I think having too many functions at the end of the printhead could very well have a negative affect on the setup process, but our press has more than the average press and it's been awesome to have. In the beginning, it was overwhelming to have all those buttons staring at you, but after just a few days, I was punching those buttons like it was a keyboard and I started to really appreciate all of the functions there. I think our press could do without a couple of the buttons on the printhead panel and you wouldn't lose anything, but for the most part, I use every single one of them. I'm certainly not dogging any press that is lacking in this department, but I personally prefer to have too many functions there than not enough. I think if you have test print, independent sq and fb speed, table up/down, indexing or at least free-wheel mode and sq/fb/screen locks then that is enough, but anything more than that can be a plus, but too many can also hinder the printer. Our press has a digital value set for most all of the print parameters which I find valuable, but it's not one of those things we couldn't live without. It's very nice to have and I'm a huge fan of those features. Those digital readouts really come in handy on tough jobs, I'll write down all those numbers so that when we print that job again, it's all right there on the job folder and is easily duplicated down to the minute details.
I think having a squeegee pressure regulator and gauge for each printhead to control the downward pressure the chopper cylinders is a must have, almost as valuable to me as having AC printheads and a servo indexer. We are constantly changing squeegee pressure within the chopper cylinders along with raising and lowering the squeegee to further dial in your print pressure. It's really nice to have that much control over the print pressure, and can make the difference in printing on top of the shirt or in the shirt.
The last feature that I would hate to not have is the tool-less squeegee/floodbar angle adjustments. Our old press required an allen wrench to loosen 2 bolts per squeegee to change the angle, our new press has 2 kip levers and it's done in seconds without tools. I'm one of those guys who changes print angle all the time and I hated having to carry an allen wrench around with me.
CENTRAL OFF CONTACT!, love it, will never go without it on a press ever again, unless it's a challenger III that has individual tool-less off contact adjustment. I'm not sure how other presses accomplish moving central off contact but ours is done with the pushing of a few buttons and it's sssssssssoooooooooooo valuable to have the ability to change the OC, it's another feature we use multiple times per day. Some shirts are thicker than others, tote bags and sweatshirts require a significantly different OC distance. Make sure the press you buy has this feature, and that it has a significant distance that it can move as well. A press that has central OC but it only has 1/16" of total movement isn't going to be as versatile as a press that has .5" or so of OC movement.
I'm sure I'll think of more things to add to this thread. Did I mention that I love talking automatics?
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RThanks Alan for taking the time to write that up!
I really don't have a clue but with this info it will help me a great deal!
Thanks
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I forgot to mention getting a pre-registration system with your auto. There are pros and cons to them but I think the fact that most every big time shop uses them vouches for their value. People get by without them, and even we do from time to time, but if used properly, there is no faster way to set up multi-colored jobs. Some arguments against them are valid, and it's true that you'll spend much more time aligning film to screen, but several minutes extra in the pre-press process is nothing compared to the time you'll save on setups. That was the hardest thing to explain to my screen guy. He just continued to argue that it takes way longer to put the film on but if 5 minutes extra will save 10 minutes at some point down the line, it's more than worth it. Now multiply that over every setup over the entire year and you'll see some significant time/money savings.
If you are handy with fabricating stuff, you can build a regi system for under $100. I made a ghetto system and it has worked very well for quite some time now. I've contemplated buying a used tri-loc for a few months now to see if we can benefit more with a professionally built system.
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Love our tri-loc, we often register 6-7 color jobs as fast as you can walk around the press and often need no micro or maybe 1 head a touch. I find that priceless.
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is the triloc only with the m&r?
will it work on other presses?
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The tri-loc will work with just about every auto press out there I think except for the mhm. I know it will work on ours, it should work on the anatols, at least I would think they would have made their presses to accept that tool, works on the Printex. So the one's I'm not sure about would be the Brown and Lawson and Anatol. I'm sure Paul will let us know if their presses will accept the tri-loc regi pallet.
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The tri-loc will work with just about every auto press out there I think except for the mhm. I know it will work on ours, it should work on the anatols, at least I would think they would have made their presses to accept that tool, works on the Printex. So the one's I'm not sure about would be the Brown and Lawson and Anatol. I'm sure Paul will let us know if their presses will accept the tri-loc regi pallet.
MHM will not take the trilock, but it has it's own system that is arguably the best one out there. It is much easier to use than the others and it does not slow you down at all.
Few weeks ago, when in a hurry, we tore down a 7 color job, cleaned the squeegees and floodbars, popped in the new screens, loaded the ink and registered the next 7 color job in about 8 min. Three ppl in a hurry to go home on a friday, no better motivation. Registration was within 10 thousands of an inch!
There is a little bit extra you have to spend on the bushings for the screens (abou $8 per frame) and about 2-3 min to install them. After that there are no traditional clamps to hold the screens, they are held in place by the pins and you can take the frames out and put them in without loosing the registration. Additional benefit of the system is that you can adjust the micros on the fly (very production friendly, linear adjustments just twist to move. Nothing to unlock or release, just turn the knob.).
After using the frames with the pins, I would not go any other way. If MHM went out of business, I would buy a used press with bushing system before buying anything else. It is hard to believe until you actually spend some time with it . . .
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The tri-loc will work with just about every auto press out there I think except for the mhm. I know it will work on ours, it should work on the anatols, at least I would think they would have made their presses to accept that tool, works on the Printex. So the one's I'm not sure about would be the Brown and Lawson and Anatol. I'm sure Paul will let us know if their presses will accept the tri-loc regi pallet.
MHM will not take the trilock, but it has it's own system that is arguably the best one out there. It is much easier to use than the others and it does not slow you down at all.
Few weeks ago, when in a hurry, we tore down a 7 color job, cleaned the squeegees and floodbars, popped in the new screens, loaded the ink and registered the next 7 color job in about 8 min. Three ppl in a hurry to go home on a friday, no better motivation. Registration was within 10 thousands of an inch!
There is a little bit extra you have to spend on the bushings for the screens (abou $8 per frame) and about 2-3 min to install them. After that there are no traditional clamps to hold the screens, they are held in place by the pins and you can take the frames out and put them in without loosing the registration. Additional benefit of the system is that you can adjust the micros on the fly (very production friendly, linear adjustments just twist to move. Nothing to unlock or release, just turn the knob.).
After using the frames with the pins, I would not go any other way. If MHM went out of business, I would buy a used press with bushing system before buying anything else. It is hard to believe until you actually spend some time with it . . .
can one of these systems be modified for an M&R system? pics? . .now I'm interested. . .
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Pretty sure any auto with side clamps can't take the tri-locs. Which rules out Anatol.
tp
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Pretty sure any auto with side clamps can't take the tri-locs. Which rules out Anatol.
tp
Not so. The side clamps just need a small modification.
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The tri-loc will work with just about every auto press out there I think except for the mhm. I know it will work on ours, it should work on the anatols, at least I would think they would have made their presses to accept that tool, works on the Printex. So the one's I'm not sure about would be the Brown and Lawson and Anatol. I'm sure Paul will let us know if their presses will accept the tri-loc regi pallet.
MHM will not take the trilock, but it has it's own system that is arguably the best one out there. It is much easier to use than the others and it does not slow you down at all.
Few weeks ago, when in a hurry, we tore down a 7 color job, cleaned the squeegees and floodbars, popped in the new screens, loaded the ink and registered the next 7 color job in about 8 min. Three ppl in a hurry to go home on a friday, no better motivation. Registration was within 10 thousands of an inch!
There is a little bit extra you have to spend on the bushings for the screens (abou $8 per frame) and about 2-3 min to install them. After that there are no traditional clamps to hold the screens, they are held in place by the pins and you can take the frames out and put them in without loosing the registration. Additional benefit of the system is that you can adjust the micros on the fly (very production friendly, linear adjustments just twist to move. Nothing to unlock or release, just turn the knob.).
After using the frames with the pins, I would not go any other way. If MHM went out of business, I would buy a used press with bushing system before buying anything else. It is hard to believe until you actually spend some time with it . . .
can one of these systems be modified for an M&R system? pics? . .now I'm interested. . .
tri lock is an M&R product. I would imagine it would work on your Gauntlet. Rich (244) probably has some experience with it, try PM'ing him . . .
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We don't run an auto yet but I did a lot of hard thinking on pre-reg and came to a couple conclusions:
The whole point is to do your registration off-press and keep that machine spinning. It's not necessarily any more/less time consuming to align screens on press than off, just a division of labor.
Your press needs to be accurate enough and kept so to really effectively have a pre-registration system work. Otherwise you just have a pre-alignment system and you might as well diy a quick system for that and not worry about every film being perfect. I think it's go big or go home on this- commit systemically to your pre-reg system and doing your registration off-press or don't. There's a lot more to it then the devices that align the positives and frames.
Tri-loc and the Newman Pin Lock use carrier sheets and pins to which each film is aligned. Both systems share the benefit of forcing you to examine how each film stacks up while you are registering on the light table. Another advantage of the pins/sheets is you can library those sheets (if done properly) for re-orders, throw them on the pins and go. Disadvantage on both is the carrier film causing light scatter behind the positive, which is already causing scatter. Even if you use the short sheets to avoid this it's adding some underexposed area to the screen. Shouldn't be a huge issue with post-exposure but long-run discharge/wb could exacerbate this for some.
Tri-loc has a jig that must be secured to your expo glass. The same three points from the jig are there on your registration platen.
Newman Pin Lock does not require anything on your glass and uses it's titular pin system with swing out arms mounted under a platen to align the frames on press.
Both are specific to the width of your screens.
The MHM system is freaking awesome looking to me. Built in reg system + linear micro adjustment that doesn't need locked? Yes please. The auto-reg presses they make are probably mind-altering to use I would imagine and a brilliant concept.
In our case, I couldn't find any other reg systems that can accommodate 25" wide frames or seem to be accurate enough to justify purchasing rather than fabricating yourself. I settled on the Pin Lock system but it's not cheap and the unfortunate reality for us is that our chameleon is not accurate enough to justify the expense of the system: we have side clamps but don't have air-locks, need to use M3 adapters to clamp our frames, and I've noticed that, with the weight of our screens on the press the micros will walk out of registration frequently during heavy production. We're also constantly fighting to keep everything parallel because we're indexing this heavy machine with our platens as there's no where you can grab the press that won't contribute to knocking the platens out of level.
If this lengthy post is too far off-topic, somebody could move it to a new category and we could carry on a discussion there. I'd love to hear more thoughts on this.
Thanks as well for starting this thread Whitewater, we're getting to the point where manual production ain't cutting it anymore and this thread has, in part, helped me narrow it down to the fact that I want us buying new.
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On the subject of pre-reg systems, I've built several over the years and I have half of the newman pin lock system. I have the swingout pallet arms and I have been thinking of a way to build a DIY with the pin lock system, but haven't had time to sit down and do it. Personally, I think if I can come up with a way to use that pin lock system without carrier sheets, it will be better than using a 3 point stop block system. I'll keep everyone informed on the progress of this project.
Back to auto talk.
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About Brown auto's..they are electric while m&r use a compressor....
why is one better than the other?
wouldn't it just be a lot less expensiver to just get the all electric one instead of the compressor and what not?
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About Brown auto's..they are electric while m&r use a compressor....
why is one better than the other?
wouldn't it just be a lot less expensiver to just get the all electric one instead of the compressor and what not?
I think that having an all electric press is fine and all, but I think you'd lose some control you have over the print process and the print settings. Our press uses air to lift the carousel, and it also uses air in the squeegee/floodbar chopper cylinders to control overall print pressure. I think having control of the air pressure within those chopper cylinders is very valuable to dialing in the perfect print pressure. I'm not sure how the all electric machines accomplish this.
I don't know if m&r or anyone of that caliber would be interested in building an "all electric" machine. I know this subject has been touched on before but not into much detail. Using a combination of air and electricity is the way most major manufacturers of production minded machines go about it but I'm not certain of the actual reasoning behind it. I'm sure there are factors such as cost, reliability, quality, production capabilities, all to varying degrees that have guided most manufacturers to build the machines the way they do today, I just wish I knew exactly why that is.
I'm not trying to put down the Brown Electraprint, I admire what they do and the niche they fill, but their machines aren't as heavily geared to big time production shops as m&r, rpm, progressive or anatol's full lineup of presses. I think that using the right combination of air and electricity to power the machines produces a better screen printing press, or at least what I know about automatics lends me to believe that to be true. The all electrics are perfect for that smaller shop that does "smaller" runs and has limited production space and limited air requirements. I've seen some mighty fine prints that came from a brown electraprint so I know they are fully capable to producing a quality print consistently. I certainly have no idea what kind of production numbers the brown's are capable of, or any other all electric press for that matter, but the robust numbers that air/electric presses can do are staggering and I would be willing to bet a small chunk of change that the all electrics can't produce that type of heavy production over a long period of time.
Whether or not the Brown or an all electric equivalent is the right fit is very shop specific. My comments above aren't meant to say the Brown can't handle doing thousands of prints a day, several hundred thousand prints a year because I don't know for sure, but I know for sure you could do that with a diamondback, sportsman, horizon, stratus, titan, revolution, falcon, hurricane, etc. Now would the shop considering a smaller entry level machine need that type of production capability that some of the other presses can provide? Should you consider what kind of production numbers you'll need to do in 5 years?
If the first year you have the auto you're only doing one job a day, 5-10 jobs per week, 36-72 pieces, almost any auto on the market would handle that, but in 2016 you might have a completely different business and could be doing 25-30 jobs a week, 100+ pieces per order, 5-6 colors on darks consistently, and I'm just not sure some of the smaller entry level autos would be the right choice then. I think they could probably handle that workload, but not as well as a more robust machine could.
So much to think about. So Whitewater, what type of business do you see yourself having 5 years from now? I think you can buy an auto for what you need right now, but it's such a big expense, an investment that you might want to buy based on what you think you'll need 2-3 years down the road. I know lot's of businesses never reach those goals they set for themselves, and you can always buy enough press to get you through till it's time to step up to a bigger one, and that might be the safest way to go about it. I think we bought ours with both thoughts in mind. It would handle anything we needed it to do then, and knew that it could handle a larger workload as well when we needed it to.
I realize I probably didn't clear anything up and didn't answer the question as to why one type of press is better than the other, but oh well, I love talking autos.
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I just had a Brown ElectraPrint installed last month. I am a small one man shop and the ElectraPrint is a perfect fit for me.
For production numbers, to this point I've cut my print times by about one/third. I'm still learning the ins and outs of this machine and I'm confident I will do better. It will print faster than one man can pull and load shirts, so it's only as fast as I am at any given time.
The squeegee pressure is adjusted manually with a turn knob at either side above each squeegee. Squeegee angle is adjustable by loosening 2 set screws and adjusting the angle by hand. I'm still learning optimal angles and pressures and it's getting easier/faster/more accurate with each job.
The only bad prints the ElectraPrint has produced thus far have been due to operator error. There is a slight learning curve when moving from manual to auto so make sure you have a few extra shirts for your first few orders. ;)
I have no other auto experience but in the end it's my guess that the ElectraPrint requires a little more hands on approach on for settings and adjustments than does an air assisted auto. All-in-all I am very pleased with my ElectraPrint. :)
Do your research and see as many auto's in action as you can. If you're ever in the Cleveland OH area, let me know and I'll be happy to let you take the ElectraPrint for a spin.
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Good info Sparkie
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Thanks guys...
I really don't want something I have to upgrade in a couple years. I've built my business from the basement of my apartment. I am rocking out at the moment!
Last year i had an employee work 40 hours a week on the manual, but just couldn't produce any more to make the business more profitable. So I downscaled and I am back to myself. (with a screen reclaimer). I am sucking it up and taking the money I would have spent on the employee and using it for a downpayment on an automatic.
I do have space issues at the moment but I will just have to deal.
I don't want to sell an automatic and buy another one a few years down the road...It just seems like a pain in the ass.
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In most cases.... going auto means:
-- new screens (23 X 31)
-- new dryer (to keep up with 300-700 shirts/hr)
-- air compressor / air dryer
-- sometimes a larger screen cabinet, larger exposure unit, more storage space.
Then... is there enough power to run it all (100 amps, single phase... minimum for most shops)
It's a lot to bite off at one time... unless you have the coin to do it in one big shot.
Most shops keep a manual.... so now the footprint of the shop has doubled.
I'm sure you've thought about each of those items individually.... but it really helps to put it all on paper (lay-out).
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No doubt, I would also suggest to any manual shop that is going to go to a auto at some point, to do the larger screens before the auto, get yourself upgraded in small steps if you are tight on cash.