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screen printing => Ink and Chemicals => Topic started by: Rocfrog on June 01, 2012, 12:09:58 PM
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Ok so leave it up to the new guy to bring up a touchy subject, but we are having a ton of issues lately of white bleeding on red/maroon/cardinal garments and it's litterly hit or mis on what does or doesn't bleed, even in the same run!
So my question is how do we prevent this? We are getting ready to run a 650pc job that is cardinal pcs with white in the design. In the past the owner has thought that we need to put an underlay of another color to prevent this but it doesn't seem to consistently work. In one job we ran the white was fine on all the pieces except for 5 of them and they bled bad. Now I have not mentioned garment types because it doesn't seem to matter, sometimes one garment will work and the next time it bleeds....
For inks we use One Stroke's "Hybrid White" for 99.9% of all our white prints. We also have One Stroke's "VersaMax White" that we hardly ever use since we got the Hybrid.
Nick
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I personally avoid this issue by never printing white on red and red related poly or 50/50. I use cad-cut whenever I can (usually for teams, so the runs are short anyway)
Otherwise, if I were you, I'd look at a poly specific white, or for colors, a gray underbase like Wilflex offers. You can also explore the pricey ultra low temp cure low bleed silicone inks that have just come on the market.
Then, of course, there's the usual warnings of carefully monitoring temps.
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how's about some details. garment type, is it a 50/50, 100% poly?
what brand?
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Wilflex ht poly white does the trick for us. I think thats what it is called. We used to have this problem all the time and are currently printing 50k pieces with it. No problems after we started using it.
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I personally avoid this issue by never printing white on red and red related poly or 50/50. I use cad-cut whenever I can (usually for teams, so the runs are short anyway)
Otherwise, if I were you, I'd look at a poly specific white, or for colors, a gray underbase like Wilflex offers. You can also explore the pricey ultra low temp cure low bleed silicone inks that have just come on the market.
Then, of course, there's the usual warnings of carefully monitoring temps.
Throw any blue in your white to where it looks like a light sky blue and you will NEVER have any bleeding. You will have to play alittle with the mix to perfect it.
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I personally avoid this issue by never printing white on red and red related poly or 50/50. I use cad-cut whenever I can (usually for teams, so the runs are short anyway)
Otherwise, if I were you, I'd look at a poly specific white, or for colors, a gray underbase like Wilflex offers. You can also explore the pricey ultra low temp cure low bleed silicone inks that have just come on the market.
Then, of course, there's the usual warnings of carefully monitoring temps.
Throw blue in your white to where it looks light a light sky blue and you will NEVER hav any bleeding. You will have to play alittle with the mix to perfect it.
You can buy this already done if you get Wilflex Quick White. It has a slight tint to it to make it brighter. We have never had an issue using this on any of those colors. We do a lot of cardinal for a big university here in Southern California.
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I personally avoid this issue by never printing white on red and red related poly or 50/50. I use cad-cut whenever I can (usually for teams, so the runs are short anyway)
Otherwise, if I were you, I'd look at a poly specific white, or for colors, a gray underbase like Wilflex offers. You can also explore the pricey ultra low temp cure low bleed silicone inks that have just come on the market.
Then, of course, there's the usual warnings of carefully monitoring temps.
Throw any blue in your white to where it looks like a light sky blue and you will NEVER have any bleeding. You will have to play alittle with the mix to perfect it.
"Never" is a pretty all-inclusive, limiting word to use with today's crappy and inconsistent offshore dye jobs we can see. Years ago, like twenty, I championed the blue trick (not dissimilar to the blueing agents used in white laundry) and still had a batch of red 50/50's bleed albeit more of a violet shade rather than pink. The fact that the bleeding took ten days helped me make my somewhat cowardly decision.
I've been able to avoid them since
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I personally avoid this issue by never printing white on red and red related poly or 50/50. I use cad-cut whenever I can (usually for teams, so the runs are short anyway)
Otherwise, if I were you, I'd look at a poly specific white, or for colors, a gray underbase like Wilflex offers. You can also explore the pricey ultra low temp cure low bleed silicone inks that have just come on the market.
Then, of course, there's the usual warnings of carefully monitoring temps.
Throw any blue in your white to where it looks like a light sky blue and you will NEVER have any bleeding. You will have to play alittle with the mix to perfect it.
"Never" is a pretty all-inclusive, limiting word to use with today's crappy and inconsistent offshore dye jobs we can see. Years ago, like twenty, I championed the blue trick (not dissimilar to the blueing agents used in white laundry) and still had a batch of red 50/50's bleed albeit more of a violet shade rather than pink. The fact that the bleeding took ten days helped me make my somewhat cowardly decision.
I've been able to avoid them since
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I works for us and maybe it will help somebody else.
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As I said, "blueing" is a great old trick, but with the wrong ink, at the wrong temp, on the wrong shirt, (or sometimes only one of these factors) poop occurs!
Hell, someone even posted that they have had black ink take on the color of a green poly jersey!
Your participation and observations and experiences are welcomed.
My point was merely, "never say never". Mr Murphy is dying for a shot to prove you wrong, often late on a Friday before a tournament requiring the shirts the next day.
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how's about some details. garment type, is it a 50/50, 100% poly?
what brand?
Like I said it has been all over the board, not just one brand or mix. We've had some Gildan 50/50, underarmor both 50/50 and poly, A4, I think the last round was majestic pieces (can't remember the blend on those. And the current ones coming in I haven't seen yet so I do not know what they are, they might be the A4 50/50 moisture management things from talking with the sales person.....
I personally avoid this issue by never printing white on red and red related poly or 50/50. I use cad-cut whenever I can (usually for teams, so the runs are short anyway)
Otherwise, if I were you, I'd look at a poly specific white, or for colors, a gray underbase like Wilflex offers. You can also explore the pricey ultra low temp cure low bleed silicone inks that have just come on the market.
Then, of course, there's the usual warnings of carefully monitoring temps.
I would love to completely avoid this problem but a lot of our business is schools and most of their colors are made up of Red's and white somehow.
Can you please elaborate on the "monitoring temps" comment because that has been a discussion around the shop but me being somewhat of a newbe I'm unsure of what is actually needed......
Nick
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Sure. Bleeding, or dye migration usually occurs at 340 or above, so very careful monitoring of actual ink layer temp is crucial, and used to be enough to pretty much ensure a good job. However, even the ink companies know enough to call most inks used for 50/50 "low bleed" rather than "no-bleed" because they don't want to stick their necks out any further than necessary, making promises that they can't keep.
Add to this the fact that almost all garments are now coming in from offshore, and dyed in the country of manufacture, and across the board are not nearly as consistent as they used to be.
True poly-specific inks have always been recommenced for pure poly, and now, with the advent of the low temp silicone inks, we may have turned the corner.
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Ok so what your basically saying is that if we keep our ink cure temps just below 340* we have a better chance of not having "bleeding" issues.....???
Nick
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I personally avoid this issue by never printing white on red and red related poly or 50/50. I use cad-cut whenever I can (usually for teams, so the runs are short anyway)
Otherwise, if I were you, I'd look at a poly specific white, or for colors, a gray underbase like Wilflex offers. You can also explore the pricey ultra low temp cure low bleed silicone inks that have just come on the market.
Then, of course, there's the usual warnings of carefully monitoring temps.
Throw blue in your white to where it looks light a light sky blue and you will NEVER hav any bleeding. You will have to play alittle with the mix to perfect it.
You can buy this already done if you get Wilflex Quick White. It has a slight tint to it to make it brighter. We have never had an issue using this on any of those colors. We do a lot of cardinal for a big university here in Southern California.
My last few batches of Quick have not been blueish. My first gallon was so blue I had a customer even point it out after printing. I love quick white. I have never had a issue with it. Flashes fast and prints smooth.
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Ok so what your basically saying is that if we keep our ink cure temps just below 340* we have a better chance of not having "bleeding" issues.....???
Nick
If your dryer is way too hot you will have issues like your talking about with almost any white ink. I would guess your way over heating the shirts. If your ink has puff in it the white will also puff up like crazy if your too hot. Is your white puffing up?
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Your having trouble across the board I would be looking at two things. Dryer temps and ink. I am leaning more towards the ink. Like I said we run Wilflex QW and we also use their Poly White with no issues yet that we have seen. Get yourself a sample of someones low bleed and start isolating. I have gotten a few samples of ink from One Stroke and I cant say I am a fan.
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Jason, love your Ben Franklin quote.
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Ok so what your basically saying is that if we keep our ink cure temps just below 340* we have a better chance of not having "bleeding" issues.....???
Nick
If your dryer is way too hot you will have issues like your talking about with almost any white ink. I would guess your way over heating the shirts. If your ink has puff in it the white will also puff up like crazy if your too hot. Is your white puffing up?
It is on the blueish side if you hold it up to the others. Its a very light tint if that. Small amount of blue makes it optically brighter to the eye. The same effect is done on Corvettes with their white paint.
LOL I saw that quote and it going to go in the lobby...
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Temp is first as it's what causes the migration of the dye out of the poly. So after triple checking that your temp is as low as possible and consistent... (it could be that those few pcs with issues got over flashed or over cured just a touch)
Next try a low cure temp, dye blocking ink. Wfx Epic Performance is what we use for this. I personally think the print and finish characteristics kinda suck but there has to be trade offs when you go for a dye-blocking ink, otherwise all but the cotton only inks would be dye-blocking right?
They also make a ub grey blocker in the Performance line that is a good barrier from dye migration but it's too dark for me and I cut Performance white into it for our UBs on 100% poly. It is exceeding difficult to print unless you warm it up and maybe add few drops of QEC viscosity buster.
That said, I see similar issues, even on black Ts using the low-cure, dye blocking inks above with that ub recipe and watching temps very closely. The cheaper the garment the more issues it seems and yes, there is no rhyme or reason to it on our end, it's totally rando for all intents and purposes.
In the end, you may have to settle for over ordering garments, printing the run, wash test a few, wait and QC on the way out after as many days as you can afford to wait to catch the worst ones.
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Ok so talking to one of my printers we think the white is "puffing" a little bit but not a lot. I'm not a huge fan of One Stoke inks as well but unfortunetly I'm not in control of who or where we purchase from I can only make suggestions and hope they listen.
As far as dryer temps go we think we might be a little on the high side but I'll check with the temp gun later when we are printing again. But our dryer is so old that it might not be able to keep a consistent temp and then it also depends on if w have the big door open or not.....
Nick
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With quick white I can tell I am too hot by checking if it puffed. You really should not be able to tell that it puffed on a low bleed white ink. (ok if your printing bullet proof prints you can...my prints are very thin and smooth) I will defiantly say your too hot and that is your main problem. Your other problems are your employees are opening "the big door" and not checking the dryer after doing it. Changing something like that will affect your dryer times. I also would look into a new dryer if it is that old. Just the power savings alone is worth it. Lastly stop buying white ink based on price. White ink is the only ink that you should buy on performance. Buy one low bleed white ink and stay with it.
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Ok so now this was today but now I'm kind of confused.....
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/Screen%20Print/DryerTemp.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/Screen%20Print/WhiteNumber.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/Rocfrog/Screen%20Print/WhiteNumbercloseup.jpg)
Now this was not on a red garment, but this is our white (One Stroke Hybrid White) on 100% polyester. p/f/p/dryer......
Nick
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With quick white I can tell I am too hot by checking if it puffed. You really should not be able to tell that it puffed on a low bleed white ink. (ok if your printing bullet proof prints you can...my prints are very thin and smooth) I will defiantly say your too hot and that is your main problem. Your other problems are your employees are opening "the big door" and not checking the dryer after doing it. Changing something like that will affect your dryer times. I also would look into a new dryer if it is that old. Just the power savings alone is worth it. Lastly stop buying white ink based on price. White ink is the only ink that you should buy on performance. Buy one low bleed white ink and stay with it.
Jon,
As far as I know QW does not have any blowing agent in it. However QW will blister easily and that might be what you are seeing.
Rocfrog stick your hand way in there to get a reading. You have to get up under that curtain and get the reading as close as possible.
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With quick white I can tell I am too hot by checking if it puffed. You really should not be able to tell that it puffed on a low bleed white ink. (ok if your printing bullet proof prints you can...my prints are very thin and smooth) I will defiantly say your too hot and that is your main problem. Your other problems are your employees are opening "the big door" and not checking the dryer after doing it. Changing something like that will affect your dryer times. I also would look into a new dryer if it is that old. Just the power savings alone is worth it. Lastly stop buying white ink based on price. White ink is the only ink that you should buy on performance. Buy one low bleed white ink and stay with it.
Jon,
As far as I know QW does not have any blowing agent in it. However QW will blister easily and that might be what you are seeing.
Rocfrog stick your hand way in there to get a reading. You have to get up under that curtain and get the reading as close as possible.
It has to have some puff in it. Blister not even sure what that looks like.
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Rocfrog stick your hand way in there to get a reading. You have to get up under that curtain and get the reading as close as possible.
Ok I can do that on Monday, wasn't sure so I just got it as it was coming out.
Nick
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quick white has ZERO puff agent, i did some beta testing on it years ago and thats one of my priorities.
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What you need to watch for is that the print may look fine right out of the dryer but come the next day or two you will see the bleeding. That's what was happening to us before.
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What you need to watch for is that the print may look fine right out of the dryer but come the next day or two you will see the bleeding. That's what was happening to us before.
It can actually take longer, way longer to rear its ugly head.
My worst experience with the 50/50 "pinkies" took more than a week.
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Ya we've had some change right away and then we've had some that the client brings back weeks later.
Nick
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There are at least a half dozen really good poly whites out there right now and you need to find one and when you have a job with any poly in the garment you print with the poly white, it's that simple. You can also try to dial in your dryer settings so that you keep the bleeding to a minimum but with some of the poly whites available, you don't really have to mess with the dryer. I'd recommend Sonny's Xenon white for 50/50's but I never tried it on 100% poly garments but I tried like hell to make it bleed and it passed the red 50/50's with great results. Another poly ink we use right now is Rutland's Poly White. And someone mentioned above the ultimate in bleed blocker is the Wilflex Underbase Grey. By itself it is impossible to get bleeding and we have always cut it in half with another low bleed white like QCM 158 or 159 so you can actually print it and have never had any bleeding issues. The UB Grey is very difficult to print with by itself so that's why I recommend mixing in another creamy, easy to print low bleed white ink. I think another great mixture would be the Wilflex UB Grey mixed 50/50 with Xenon white. The UB Grey is very expensive but if used/cut correctly it will last a long time and be worth the money.
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Wilflex performance white out performs ANYTHING on the market IMO!