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screen printing => Ink and Chemicals => Topic started by: Rockers on June 09, 2012, 08:38:43 PM
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Unfortunately where we are based you will be charged for ink samples. Just to get a 1/8 of a gallon Max Production White ink sample of our QCM ink distributer did cost me around $20. That white was recommended to us by the distributer but I thought it's rather terrible. It's just climbing up your squeegee.
Is there not a better QCM white around? They seem to have so many different ones, it's almost not practical for us to get a sample of each, especially not at those charges. Any recommendations are welcome.
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i used to use 158 and 159, they both were great.
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We'v been using the WOW white. Not bad so far for what we've done, but we haven't done too much comparing to others yet.
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The 159 is great at everything except staying in the ink well during automatic printing. It climbs the squeegee and floodbar so badly that it's not worth dealing with. It is very opaque and flashes fast, literally everything about it is great except the climbing. We mix our 159 with Triangle Phoenix 50/50 but I've been thinking of going up to 60% on the 159. The 158 isn't as opaque as the 159 but it doesn't climb as bad, but it still climbs more than I'd like.
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what alan said, it's a climber on the manual too but great ink. hopefully it's consistently made now, it had way too much variance bucket to bucket before.
if you keep it warm most if the climbing issues become negligible
we switched to wilflex epic quick which has better all around characteristics and us very consistent but it's not quite as optically bright.
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"climbers" can be helped with the addition of a little reducer or soft base, but, of course, can lose a bit of opacity in the deal.
Even on a manual, it can be annoying, on an auto, an absolute pain!
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Has anyone tried the QCM 158.1? And how does the QCM 151 stack up against what seems to be a usually promoted white in the QCM 159?
Thanks.
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I would recommend the XOLB-142 (Fast Flashing White), which was created to be a fast flashing production white. The XOLB-158/159/151 do seem prone to climbing, but some have great success with these products. The softee base is the recommended additive to help with climbing, but is a pain and extra step. I have been hearing the ink has been more consistent from printers, but if anyone has any problems or sees otherwise let me know!
Does anyone else out there have any comments to add about the XOLB-142?
Has anyone tried the QCM 158.1? And how does the QCM 151 stack up against what seems to be a usually promoted white in the QCM 159?
Thanks.
The XOLB-158.1 has not been available for at least 2 years, so if a distributor has it, chances are it is pretty old, who is the distributor? The XOLB-151 was meant to be a production version of the popular XOLB-158. The XOLB-159 is similar to the XOLB-158 however has a little more bleed resistance, a little more opacity and a little bit of a brighter white. This is usually reflected in the cost. I had been told the X-159 is like X-158 on steroids, however, I have heard several times that they have a tendency to be climbers. With that said; the XOLB-142 is not as bright as the X-158 or X-159 but seems to be more successful as a fast flashing production white, than the X-151 (previously created production version X-158).
I also had a couple of questions for Rockers:
Who is your distributor?
What are the cost associated with the sample, product? shipping?
Feel free to email me any questions about the differences in the long list of QCM white inks. Thanks!
Best Regards'
Melissa Cambra 8)
MelissaC@Rutlandinc.com
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I knew I had done some research on QCM Whites at some point and I found my notes. Their website allows you to sort the different whites by opacity, flash times, bleed resistance, cost and stretchability. This is what I came up with out of the categories I was interested in. Here is a link to the page that you can sort through and filter the ink based on the major categories that us screen printers are interested in. http://www.qcminks.com/qcm_white_inks.php (http://www.qcminks.com/qcm_white_inks.php)
I wish more ink manufacturers used something like QCM has there, I found it very informative and I would love to see it with others.
COTTON ONLY WHITES:
WOW 101:
Opacity=4/7 (4th out of the 7 cotton inks)
Flash time=6/7
HW 101 Highlight White
Opacity=3/7
Flash time=7/7
XOLB 108 Cotton White
Opacity=7/7
Flash time=4/7
XOLB 102 Cotton White
Opacity=2/7
Flash time=5/7
XOLB 109 Simply White
Opacity=6/7
Flash time=3/7
XOLB 130 Fast Flash White
Opacity=1/7
Flash time=2/7
XOLB 142 Max Production White
Opacity=5/7
Flash time=1/7
LOW BLEED WHITES:
XOLB 150 Original Glacier White
Opacity=5/6
Flash time=5/6
Bleed resistance=6/6
XOLB 151 Glacier Max White
Opacity=2/6
Flash time=4/6
Bleed resistance=2/6
XOLB 158 Creamy Glacier White
Opacity=6/6
Flash time=1/6
Bleed resistance=4/6
XOLB 158.1 New Glacier White
Opacity=4/6
Flash time=3/6
Bleed resistance=5/6
XOLB 159 Glacier Plus White
Opacity=3/6
Flash time=2/6
Bleed resistance=3/6
XOLB Polar White
Opacity=1/6
Flash time=6/6
Bleed resistance=1/6
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Alan,
Do you bi-locate with your spare time? I hate you.
:P
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I wish I could that, I'd get a lot more stuff done and I could take more than a 2 day vacation some day.
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Thanks for the notes, Alan. Saving us all a lot of web-button jockeying.
I've only done the 109, 158, and 159, and although the 109 seemed like pretty good ink, the 158 was good, and I just got samples of the 159--and I think they were either a bad batch, heat damaged, or some such horrible fate befell them before they got into my hands.
The 109 I've run a bit of, and I like it--doesn't climb too bad, and we didn't have flash time problems. I'd definitely try it out if you're doing lots of cotton.
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I ordered a gal of the 130 today. I talked to a rep from the supplier I get my qcm from and he was asking me why I wanted the 130 and that no other printers were requesting it but he was being rude about it like I was some idiot printer (entirely possible) and I should be buying the 158 & 159 like every other shop in town was doing. I hate it when suppliers act like they know everything but I was asking him questions that I knew the answers to and he wasn't even close to being right with all the different qcm whites and their characteristics.
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I would recommend the XOLB-142 (Fast Flashing White), which was created to be a fast flashing production white. The XOLB-158/159/151 do seem prone to climbing, but some have great success with these products. The softee base is the recommended additive to help with climbing, but is a pain and extra step. I have been hearing the ink has been more consistent from printers, but if anyone has any problems or sees otherwise let me know!
Does anyone else out there have any comments to add about the XOLB-142?
Has anyone tried the QCM 158.1? And how does the QCM 151 stack up against what seems to be a usually promoted white in the QCM 159?
Thanks.
The XOLB-158.1 has not been available for at least 2 years, so if a distributor has it, chances are it is pretty old, who is the distributor? The XOLB-151 was meant to be a production version of the popular XOLB-158. The XOLB-159 is similar to the XOLB-158 however has a little more bleed resistance, a little more opacity and a little bit of a brighter white. This is usually reflected in the cost. I had been told the X-159 is like X-158 on steroids, however, I have heard several times that they have a tendency to be climbers. With that said; the XOLB-142 is not as bright as the X-158 or X-159 but seems to be more successful as a fast flashing production white, than the X-151 (previously created production version X-158).
I also had a couple of questions for Rockers:
Who is your distributor?
What are the cost associated with the sample, product? shipping?
Feel free to email me any questions about the differences in the long list of QCM white inks. Thanks!
Best Regards'
Melissa Cambra 8)
MelissaC@Rutlandinc.com
Our distributer is Prism in Tokyo. They charge for every sample which is not even a qt. at least US$20 + delivery of course. The XLOB-142 was recommended by them but that too climbs a lot. Might try the 130 as Alan said.
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Alan, what you did with testing those inks is what every rep oughta be doing if the ink mfg doesn't provide sufficient data on their own.
That's some serious diligence! We tried like three QCM whites I think, 159 seemed best and so we printed with it for 4 years. I have the love for but not the time and gumption for the comparisons you're doing and I'm impressed.
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I ordered a gal of the 130 today. I talked to a rep from the supplier I get my qcm from and he was asking me why I wanted the 130 and that no other printers were requesting it but he was being rude about it like I was some idiot printer (entirely possible) and I should be buying the 158 & 159 like every other shop in town was doing. I hate it when suppliers act like they know everything but I was asking him questions that I knew the answers to and he wasn't even close to being right with all the different qcm whites and their characteristics.
This is a problem everywhere. Our last rep (before he was fired) brought out some QCM and said it can do this and that. I said prove it after he told me he could run our machine with a blindfold on. Well sorry to say he could not make it print worth a crap so it did not do what he said nor could he make it do it himself. Funny thing is I could have showed him how to print it the right way and make it look good but it was more entertaining watching him make a fool of himself in front of his boss.
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Hearing that story makes me sooo sad.... I pride myself on being able to walk in and actually be able to figure out how to make anything work in someones shop... Especially ink I am trying to pitch.
And here I can't even get past frikin HR at most companies.
Alan, as much as you like that ink selection guide I wrote at QCM, it's 1/4 of what we wanted to make initially. Darn bureaucracy ;)
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I'd be willing to do some more spread sheet compiling on google docs to go along with my (much neglected) emulsion database.
Say the word and what you want on it and I'll structure it. I can make it sort and dance and twirl, hell I'll put in some pie charts and graphs if you guys want and fill it up with some data for me to manipulate!
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Well, my qcm supplier called today and said the 130 was discontinued, awesome. I'm really wondering what other factors all these print shops that dictate what qcm makes and what they discontinue are looking at when selecting a white ink. According to the freaking people who made the ink, the 130 was more opaque and flashed faster than any other cotton white yet it sold so poorly they just scrapped it. And same thing for the low bleed whites, there are better performers in the three main categories, opacity, flash time and bleed resistance than the 158 and 159 yet it's their best sellers by far from what my supplier was saying. I've got a gallon of the Miami Screen Print Supply Superior white coming in on Thursday so if it's as good or better than their smooth white then I may have found me a winner. The smooth is a great white ink so far, and the superior is supposed to have more opacity so I can't wait to test it out. And the fact it's like $170 for a 5 gal makes it almost too good to be true.
Colin, that guide is freaking awesome, and I found it to be spot on with my findings and when comparing the qcm whites I've tried, so I trusted it 100%. Which makes me even more angry now that I think that the best overall performing cotton white they made never sold so they are getting rid of it.
While on the phone today I was being told which white inks sell the best but I've never had any luck with "best sellers" because I think a lot of shops in our area buy based on price alone because their quality is craptastic and they don't give a damn that another ink will give them better results. I was asked if I wanted to try the qcm 108 and if you look at the numbers on that ink I politely declined, I think it was the worst performer in both categories. Oh well, the search continues.
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I never understood why everyone has so many damn options. Make three whites: cotton, low bleed, poly. Work to make them all the best inks on the market. The natural efficiency of large batch production will drive down the cost, keep the ink consistent and eliminate the issue of ignoramus sales staff.
Hey alan and colin lets start an ink brand, who's got the capital?
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I think the only ink manu that has it down to 3 is Triangle. I am not sure what their cotton is called but the 50/50 is Phoenix and the poly is Excel.
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I wish I had the cash to get it rolling, that would be fun to get into I think.
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I once visited small ink factory. Not much capital needed for equipment they had. Their by far greatest asset was know how. knowing which ingredients you need, where to get them and how much to put. Much like cooking. But Colin can/should correct me if underestimated cost of scaled mixer, blender and some lab stuff. Maybe i use wrong names for machinery, i just translated in my head to english.
Boris
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Actually mixing ink is not truly difficult, just time consuming :) And yes, it's very much like baking.... think of making a bread dough with anywhere from 10-20 ingredients in an industrial sized mixer. The big guys are mixing 1,000 plus gallons at a time.... others only 150 gallons at a time.
Ink chemistry is lots of fun to play with, I had a great time chatting with my chemists and learning far more than I should about ink chemistry ;) But you want a lot of capital to get an ink company started....
If we had the right chemist,a few people who can sell, coupled with the right screen printer knowledge and understanding... it could do quite well :)
Alan: The XO 108 is a cheap cotton white... which is why it ranks the way it does.
The XO 130 is not as amazing as people state...
Stats only show a small portion of what's needed to truly rank ink.... Which is why that chart is 1/4 of what I wanted it to be.
Chris: As either a Distributor or Ink Manufacturer, the biggest thing you will find when you send out white ink is the diverse opinions people will have about the same ink. Even on this board you have seen that.
I sent out the same white to several different customers and the responses ran the gamut, from it's crap to it's the best we've ever had in the shop. This was the exact same ink. A shops reaction is completely based around the people in the shop, how rigid they are in their print approach, conversely how adaptable they are with an ink that is different, what their relationship is with the distributor, whether or not the printer/production manager has their own agenda, whether the owner is looking at only cost, whether the shop is looking at ink and doesn't care what the cost is....etc etc etc
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Chris: As either a Distributor or Ink Manufacturer, the biggest thing you will find when you send out white ink is the diverse opinions people will have about the same ink. Even on this board you have seen that.
I sent out the same white to several different customers and the responses ran the gamut, from it's crap to it's the best we've ever had in the shop. This was the exact same ink. A shops reaction is completely based around the people in the shop, how rigid they are in their print approach, conversely how adaptable they are with an ink that is different, what their relationship is with the distributor, whether or not the printer/production manager has their own agenda, whether the owner is looking at only cost, whether the shop is looking at ink and doesn't care what the cost is....etc etc etc
Amen to that!!! I have given a customer a private labeled white (Wilflex White Buffalo) and he didn’t like it... Two freaking weeks later my competition gave the same customer Wilflex White Buffalo, and he loved it... WTF... :o
Another example... Back in the day we had Kiwo Poly Plus S as a private label product (Per the manufacturer’s request)... Went around selling it as a drop in replacement for the Poly Plus S... I prolly had 4 or 5 printers tell me they were not that similar, and the "labeled" Poly Plus S was better, Faster, Etc...
There are so many variables in what a printer actually wants, drives me effin nuts sometimes... ;)
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Chris: As either a Distributor or Ink Manufacturer, the biggest thing you will find when you send out white ink is the diverse opinions people will have about the same ink. Even on this board you have seen that.
We could offer a whole set of additives that actually do nothing to modify the ink in any way but offer a placebo effect that something is happening. ;)
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Chris: As either a Distributor or Ink Manufacturer, the biggest thing you will find when you send out white ink is the diverse opinions people will have about the same ink. Even on this board you have seen that.
I sent out the same white to several different customers and the responses ran the gamut, from it's crap to it's the best we've ever had in the shop. This was the exact same ink. A shops reaction is completely based around the people in the shop, how rigid they are in their print approach, conversely how adaptable they are with an ink that is different, what their relationship is with the distributor, whether or not the printer/production manager has their own agenda, whether the owner is looking at only cost, whether the shop is looking at ink and doesn't care what the cost is....etc etc etc
Amen to that!!! I have given a customer a private labeled white (Wilflex White Buffalo) and he didn’t like it... Two freaking weeks later my competition gave the same customer Wilflex White Buffalo, and he loved it... WTF... :o
Another example... Back in the day we had Kiwo Poly Plus S as a private label product (Per the manufacturer’s request)... Went around selling it as a drop in replacement for the Poly Plus S... I prolly had 4 or 5 printers tell me they were not that similar, and the "labeled" Poly Plus S was better, Faster, Etc...
There are so many variables in what a printer actually wants, drives me effin nuts sometimes... ;)
How can u private label buffalo white? I didnt think polyone allowed that. Hope I am not one of the Jackasses you speak of.
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How can u private label buffalo white? I didnt think polyone allowed that. Hope I am not one of the Jackasses you speak of.
Not sure if it was allowed..?? But we did for a time... Wasn’t my call anyway...;)
Actually you were not... And I wouldn’t call them Jack asses... It is a valuable lesson in sales and psychology. Maybe he was in a bad mood that day, maybe he let his press operator test it, maybe he just didn’t like me...??
In that situation my competition gave the customer the exact same product, with a brand name, a higher price, and won...
That day he ate my lunch (Actually dinner and desert, it was a big account >:(). Wasn’t the first time, and won’t be the last...
In retrospect I did learn something tho... That customer was a brand whore... I should have never gone in with the private label line... He would pay 4 bucks more a gallon for a $0.02 label that said Wilflex, and if I was a better salesman (at the time) I would have seen that...
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Chris: As either a Distributor or Ink Manufacturer, the biggest thing you will find when you send out white ink is the diverse opinions people will have about the same ink. Even on this board you have seen that.
We could offer a whole set of additives that actually do nothing to modify the ink in any way but offer a placebo effect that something is happening. ;)
Offer them the same product, diff label. Tell them they have to mix it in thoroughly for 5 min and make sure it reaches 80 degrees, you know, normal operating temps... charge double for it lol.
Chris: As either a Distributor or Ink Manufacturer, the biggest thing you will find when you send out white ink is the diverse opinions people will have about the same ink. Even on this board you have seen that.
I sent out the same white to several different customers and the responses ran the gamut, from it's crap to it's the best we've ever had in the shop. This was the exact same ink. A shops reaction is completely based around the people in the shop, how rigid they are in their print approach, conversely how adaptable they are with an ink that is different, what their relationship is with the distributor, whether or not the printer/production manager has their own agenda, whether the owner is looking at only cost, whether the shop is looking at ink and doesn't care what the cost is....etc etc etc
Amen to that!!! I have given a customer a private labeled white (Wilflex White Buffalo) and he didn’t like it... Two freaking weeks later my competition gave the same customer Wilflex White Buffalo, and he loved it... WTF... :o
Another example... Back in the day we had Kiwo Poly Plus S as a private label product (Per the manufacturer’s request)... Went around selling it as a drop in replacement for the Poly Plus S... I prolly had 4 or 5 printers tell me they were not that similar, and the "labeled" Poly Plus S was better, Faster, Etc...
There are so many variables in what a printer actually wants, drives me effin nuts sometimes... ;)
I can't remember how many times I sent product out for a customer (when QCM was selling supplies and ink) that was a private label "drop in" for what they were using, same product of course, and the responses went in both directions from loving it to hating it... Sigh.
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Well, my qcm supplier called today and said the 130 was discontinued, awesome. I'm really wondering what other factors all these print shops that dictate what qcm makes and what they discontinue are looking at when selecting a white ink. According to the freaking people who made the ink, the 130 was more opaque and flashed faster than any other cotton white yet it sold so poorly they just scrapped it. And same thing for the low bleed whites, there are better performers in the three main categories, opacity, flash time and bleed resistance than the 158 and 159 yet it's their best sellers by far from what my supplier was saying. I've got a gallon of the Miami Screen Print Supply Superior white coming in on Thursday so if it's as good or better than their smooth white then I may have found me a winner. The smooth is a great white ink so far, and the superior is supposed to have more opacity so I can't wait to test it out. And the fact it's like $170 for a 5 gal makes it almost too good to be true.
Colin, that guide is freaking awesome, and I found it to be spot on with my findings and when comparing the qcm whites I've tried, so I trusted it 100%. Which makes me even more angry now that I think that the best overall performing cotton white they made never sold so they are getting rid of it.
While on the phone today I was being told which white inks sell the best but I've never had any luck with "best sellers" because I think a lot of shops in our area buy based on price alone because their quality is craptastic and they don't give a damn that another ink will give them better results. I was asked if I wanted to try the qcm 108 and if you look at the numbers on that ink I politely declined, I think it was the worst performer in both categories. Oh well, the search continues.
I have never had the pleasure using any of the QCM inks before that company was sold to Rutland. Have the white inks changed in quality after the takeover? Why change a winning formula?