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screen printing => Ink and Chemicals => Topic started by: Prosperi-Tees on June 15, 2012, 12:48:15 AM
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What yall think?
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If the container is a little bigger, and leaves room for mixing, I'd say it's a good thing.
On the other hand, if it's a 45A bucket from Kirk Containers (look on the bottom), it is not as full as the IC Navy I just bought.
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Is it at the bottom fill line? They could also have packed it by weight... if there is more flake in this batch it could be heavier by volume...
Some metallics will gas over time.... I don't know about I.C. formulations.... So I am not sure if that is the reasoning here.
I would still feel a bit gyped though.
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i know they ship gallons by weight....a gallon is a gallon...just depends on what that gallon is...just a like a pound of feathers is a lot larger than a pound of bricks...
sam
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You know.. I almost did the same thing here by post a pic of my last gallon of ink I purchased. I bought a gallon of Wilflex White Buffalo and truly felt like there was about quart to a quart and half missing from the bucket. I called the supplier and they claimed that all the buckets were filled that way and that they were filled by weight. As much as I tried to pry the info from her, she couldn't / wouldn't tell me how much a full gallon of ink should weigh.
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i know they ship gallons by weight....a gallon is a gallon...just depends on what that gallon is...just a like a pound of feathers is a lot larger than a pound of bricks...
sam
Galon is a measure for volume and not weight.
If you sell something as a gallon, it should be filled to the same height/line in every color, it should not matter how heavy it is.
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Sorry but thats not how it is with ink and many other chemicals. Manufacturers and distributors use the term "gallon" as a user friendly description intended for the end user. In actuality each component is sold by weight. A "gallon" of Marine blue does not weigh the same as one of mixing yellow, for instance. Most or all ink manufacturers have a given weight attributed to each ink or additive per "gallon". That isn't to say they don't occaisonally have a "butchers thumb" on the scale at times but assuming everyone is practicing ethical business standards you are getting what you pay for.
It's the cereal box analogy......sold by weight not volume, contents may settle.
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Sorry but thats not how it is with ink and many other chemicals. Manufacturers and distributors use the term "gallon" as a user friendly description intended for the end user. In actuality each component is sold by weight. A "gallon" of Marine blue does not weigh the same as one of mixing yellow, for instance. Most or all ink manufacturers have a given weight attributed to each ink or additive per "gallon". That isn't to say they don't occaisonally have a "butchers thumb" on the scale at times but assuming everyone is practicing ethical business standards you are getting what you pay for.
It's the cereal box analogy......sold by weight not volume, contents may settle.
I understand that, but at least, they should mark the gallon buckets as "1 Gallon" with " ", so there would not be posts like this :)
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this came up before and the manufacturer's reps that chimed in explained that you are buying a specific weight in a "Gallon" container. As Colin siad, I know this and still don't like it, but at least understanding why makes it easier to cope with . . .
pierre
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Agreed but that would hold them to higher standards wouldn't it? :P
In all fairness having visited the Polyone facility in Kennessaw I personally witnessed how they package the ink. It is done with extreme precision and accuracy. Can't speak for the others but I'd like to think they are all on board. Maybe it's my new rose colored glasses!
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It does not matter what the "standard" is, you got ripped off.......A gallon should be a gallon.....Put in a protest to your credit card company..
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And good luck with that!
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I bought an IC red a few months ago that was just above 1/2 way full ,their excuse was that the ink settled.
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i know they ship gallons by weight....a gallon is a gallon...just depends on what that gallon is...just a like a pound of feathers is a lot larger than a pound of bricks...
sam
Galon is a measure for volume and not weight.
If you sell something as a gallon, it should be filled to the same height/line in every color, it should not matter how heavy it is.
Agreed sounds like to me as an excuse to cheapskate the customer. I bought some older IC inks from an ink sale and a few newer ones in the clear IC buckets, the newer inks are not filled as high. Could this have something to do with the economy? I've noticed food portions in packaged foods at the super market have also shrunk in size but inflated in price. Union inks still sell true gallons. BTW I love how Ryonet relables everything as Ryonet.
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I bought an IC red a few months ago that was just above 1/2 way full ,their excuse was that the ink settled.
You and reds just dont get along.
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ink companies don't buy pigment by volume, they buy it by weight, so it would make sense to sell it that way. Tony is right, it's an easier measurement than 9 lbs.
9lbs doesn't tell you crap frankly, but a gallon does.
Also, eggs aren't sold by the dozen either, they are sold by weight. Not all eggs are equal size, so they group them together as close as they can by weight.
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So we are to weigh each gallon that comes in but will manus let you know what weight that's supposed to be?
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That would be awesome but unlikely. It's like when we used to buy white in 200 gallon totes. They would weigh the tote before and after filling and you were charged by weight not volume. Unless you're standing there at the ink facility you are forced to trust them.
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I'm not sure if you have weights and measure standards down there , but if you are scaling anything in Canada the scales have to be checked every year or 2 by a government certification, spot checks are standard? . I worked at a liquid soap factory and scales were checked certified regularly.
If it is labeled a liquid measure of "gallon" or "litre" it has to be that volume not weight.
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But what about the "ice cream" factor?
Ever leave a half gallon (or even a newer 1.5 quart) container of ice cream out til it melts? With most commercial offerings., you'd be lucky to have half of the container still full.
Some inks, seem to me to also be "fluffier". Weight is more honest with ice cream and ink, though I'll agree, a bucket labeled as a gallon, should be a gallon, or at least should have been when packed.
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Send it back to them. See if they dont return it because so much ink is missing.
We as consumers can make this stop. Demand that you get the rest of the ink or send it back. Buy from another company that fills their buckets. Filling by weight is not an excuse . All companies fill by weight that does not mean they can short you.
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To expand a little on what I had posted:
Prelude: When an ink is manufactured and when it is a brand new ink, they go through the process of determining it's density as part of it's QC process.
When an ink is new, ink companies will fill a gallon in between those two "fill lines" that you see on every gallon bucket. They will then weigh that ink to determine what it's "weight per gallon" is. This will go down as the standard from then on. They allow a small margin for error when filling each gallon.
Now, if the next time that ink is made it's density is less... then the ink will fill up more of the container and look like it's really full.
Conversely, if the ink is even denser than the "control" it will end up looking like it filled less of the container... making it look like you got gyped.
Trust me, the ink companies would love to sell us ink by weight, not by gallon....
Yes, there are some times when ink volumes are messed up... more often than not those are shipping mistakes (a partial gallon used to send samples that got mixed in on accident type of problems), not mistakes on the part of the guy packing the ink.
You will see "off volume gallons" most often with a distributor that is re-labeling or skimming the top of a gallon to send out extra samples.
:)
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If density is changing so much from the control then wouldn't the ink properties and coverage change also?
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If density is changing so much from the control then wouldn't the ink properties and coverage change also?
I was thinking the same thing. Something like shimmer I can see a settling problem when taking a batch from a large container to smaller ones. I am sure that is the problem with this bucket.
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If density is changing so much from the control then wouldn't the ink properties and coverage change also?
The short answer is: yes.
The long answer is: yes, but, you should not notice the differences unless you are printing through very high mesh counts laying down a very very thin deposit.
It's most notable on the heavier inks. Platinums, shimmers, high pigment white inks, etc... At it's greatest discrepancy it would be about 1 pint at most.
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Everywhere but the US sells ink by the kilo...
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It does not matter what the "standard" is, you got ripped off.......A gallon should be a gallon.....Put in a protest to your credit card company..
thats why credit card rates get so high. trigger happy users that pull that crap. its not like he didnt get the product or it was bad.
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and beside, first contact the vendor.
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I thought he already contacted the vendor and got some "lame" excuse....
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I will update this topic when I hear back from the vendor.
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There is a VERY easy test do the math
The volume of a gallon of water is .... one gallon! A gallon is a volumetric measurement.
One US gallon is 0.133681 cubic feet, or 3.785411 litres, or 0.832674 UK gallons.
One UK gallon is 0.160544 cubic feet, or 4.54609 litres, or 1.20095 US gallons.
Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_volume_of_one_gallon_of_water#ixzz1y3erNo93 (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_volume_of_one_gallon_of_water#ixzz1y3erNo93)
mooseman
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Well they aknowledged that it looked short and offered replacement product or an in store credit.
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Well they aknowledged that it looked short and offered replacement product or an in store credit.
They offered a replacement, that would have ment retuirn shipping and delivery shipping of the replacement lots of $$ on their part.
in store credit, give yourself a chance to get half of what they owe you.
The body language in this says they disagree with you or simply do not care. logically they would have sent you a quart of the same ink so you could get the GALLON YOU PAID FOR, or better yet if you are are good customer send you another gallon of ink at no charge, that is what I would have done if I short shipped.
At least they didn't try to tell you it was SHORT BODIED white
pretty cheeeeeeezy if you ask me
mooseman
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If they are crediting him the entire gallon then that would be acceptable as well. Hell, if they credited him HALF a gallon that would be ok.
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Seems the most simple and logical way for this to play out is for the seller to tell him what the weight is supposed to be after all we have learned that inks are sold in weights not true gallons. He then should be able to weigh his gallon and relay that back to the seller, if off then they are responsible.
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Two words might shine some light on this or perhaps further confuse.
Specific Gravity.
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Unfortunately specific gravity is not it. SG is a measure of density unless they are dispensing the produvt by weight and not volume SG has absolutely no bearing.
Here is an example
a gallon of water specific gravity of 1.0 weighs about 8.3 pounds / gallon
gasoline has a specific gravity of .76 so one gallon of gasoline weighs 8.3 x .76 or 6.3 pounds / gallon.
brine solution has a SG of 1.12 so a gallon there weighs 9.3 pounds / gallon
Volumetrically speaking a gallon of water, gas and brine are going to fill to EXACTLY the same level in any given container even though they weigh very differently due to SG differences, a gallon = a gallon = a gallon.
mooseman
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Unfortunately specific gravity is not it. SG is a measure of density unless they are dispensing the produvt by weight and not volume SG has absolutely no bearing.
Here is an example
a gallon of water specific gravity of 1.0 weighs about 8.3 pounds / gallon
gasoline has a specific gravity of .76 so one gallon of gasoline weighs 8.3 x .76 or 6.3 pounds / gallon.
brine solution has a SG of 1.12 so a gallon there weighs 9.3 pounds / gallon
Volumetrically speaking a gallon of water, gas and brine are going to fill to EXACTLY the same level in any given container even though they weigh very differently due to SG differences, a gallon = a gallon = a gallon.
mooseman
This is the same as a pound of bricks and a pound of feathers. It does not matter if the gallon of ink weighs a thousand pounds if it doesn't fill the gallon. If they are selling a gallon of ink it should be a full gallon of ink. Now if they are selling 8 pounds of ink then it does not matter if it only fills half the gallon they sold you 8 pounds. Now you have to ask what did they sell? I see on their website gallon of ink with the price next to it. That would sound like it is a gallon for that price.
It does not matter if they weigh the ink to measure out a gallon. If they made the ink wrong (too heavy) and it weighs more they have to change the weigh needed to fill the bucket to a gallon for that batch of ink. Its not your problem they messed up.
We don’t lay down 5 grams of ink on a shirt if it needs 10 grams to cover the shirt.
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Why doesn't the damn ink companies list what their weights are along side the gallon pricing. Of course they can include a small +/- over under to keep the penny wise from screaming every time they are off a gram. If we all knew what weights to expect from our inks when purchased then we could tell if some one has a butchers thumb.
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... then we could tell if some one has a butchers thumb.
Your butch has thumbs?! ;)
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You should absolutely be able to get a specific gravity or weight per gallon for your inks. I know Wilflex provides that. Most manufacturers do fill to a weight -- the reason is that the ink is so viscous, that if you went to a volume fill line, you would have a "coning" effect and have to tamp the container to flatten it -- definitely not production efficient.
Therefore each ink has a target wpg - and scales are used to fill to that weight. Colors with a lot of white (titanium) are much heavier than say fluorescents. You could see a color in the 10lb per gallon range; where a printing white (i.e. Wilflex Quick White) is 13.5 #/gal.
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Why doesn't the damn ink companies list what their weights are along side the gallon pricing. Of course they can include a small +/- over under to keep the penny wise from screaming every time they are off a gram. If we all knew what weights to expect from our inks when purchased then we could tell if some one has a butchers thumb.
At QCM we were doing that before Rutland purchased us. I believe it is still on each label...