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screen printing => Waterbase and Discharge => Topic started by: Itsa Little CrOoked on June 25, 2012, 08:00:05 PM
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I tried to get it all in the subject line, but to clarify: I run a manual shop. I like WB discharge printing more and more, but on multi-color Wet On Wet runs over 60-80 pieces or so, plates 2, 3, 4 etc, pick up enough ink to cause problems. The ink "skins over" to a thick enough matrix to re-apply to my image area as visible "flecks" of half-dried ink. It is worse in hot weather of course.
I actually posted this on another forum over a year ago, and to this day, I still don't have a clue how to solve it. I call it Zombie Skin because if I don't print some sacrificial paper to partially clear the underside of the stencils from time to time, thats what it reminds me of.... Zombie Skin from a "B" movie.
Someone mentioned Silicone Spray under to plates to keep it from happening, but it just seems counter-intuitive. I used to run a sign shop and silicone and paint mix like oil and water. I guess I'm just not willing to try silicone around my WB inks unless someone I trust says so.
I am really wanting to succeed at this, BEFORE I make the jump to an auto.
Stan
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There is a lot to go over here and I have to split in a second but if you have any white discharge pigment in the mix you are going to have some buildup with wow printing. Whenever we do any wow discharge/water base white goes last!
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Speed up. Your printing to slow. ;D Seriously. We run into this when we stop and the back sides of the screens start to get tacky because they are drying on the underside. Thats why once you start running make your stops as minimal as possible. If you have to stop try misting a little bit of water on the backs. Those crumbs do not affect it much through the dryer.
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Also are you using White in any of these WB/D ink? we found that that was a huge culprit for us
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Sorry for the slow response, I was on the road this evening. And oh yes, white goes down last in our shop, when we discharge. Printing white last does help, but only with that one aspect.
I know speed is important, but even going pretty hard, I have problems out past 50 pcs or so....with multi colored W.O.W. jobs. Typically on a 4 spot-color job with large solid areas, I'll load 1 (one) shirt on 1 (one) platen, and print all the colors on that one shirt.... starting with the smallest block of color first, moving to the larger design elements, then ending always with white. (CCI D-white is my favorite) I mist the flooded ink with water frequently, especially white, if any, and then I mix the water into the thirsty ink over the "inkwell" with my squeegee blade.
HOWEVER I HAVE NEVER TRIED MISTING THE UNDERSIDE of my stencils. It seems to me likely to spoil the next shirt with diluted ZFS. I've done that just with over-misting the backflood.
Once the referrenced problem with drying ink develops, I print paper, which helps (barely) but not for very long.... I rarely have the actual image area "dry-in" on any particular stencil, unless it has tiny halftone dots.
What works better, if anything...than printing on paper to clear the mess??? Can you clear the image area by printing on paper (or pellons) and dry wipe the remaining residue from the underside of the stencil?? I've actually done that a time or two, but the image area gets too dry if I'm not EXTREMELY careful.
I need an auto I guess, but not right now.
Stan
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Exactly. That was my point from an earlier post. White discharge mixed into pantone colors will have that effect sometimes. Also please remember when you move onto your auto you will have the option of higher mesh counts and printing waaaay faster. A lot of shops we talk to think 230 mesh is the highest you can go with discharge and we hit the 350 mark sometimes. Killer detail. But the higher mesh with one stroke will also help the wow printing. And silicone and water as you mentioned above? Try printing silicone ink on water resistant material! All I can say is
n i g h t m a r e
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And I also just realized any discharge job at our shop over one color and over 72 pieces goes auto, no manual. Nothing against our manual guys as they kill water base but dcharge is a different beast
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@ Brandon, I meant pure silicone spray on the underside of the plate, not silicone ink. Yikes!!
Somebody wrote, or told me.... I forget which.....that they spray silicone on the underside of their stencils to control ink pickup with discharge printing. (I just doubt that.....)
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@ Brandon, I meant pure silicone spray on the underside of the plate, not silicone ink. Yikes!!
Somebody wrote, or told me.... I forget which.....that they spray silicone on the underside of their stencils to control ink pickup with discharge printing. (I just doubt that.....)
That might be true, I am not sure. I do know with our wow plastisol printing it is not an issue with correct inks and mesh tension. Tension falls or low bleed inks you have a problem. No point for the silicone spray and according to all of our plastisol reps that stuff has not been needed in ages. But I assume as our problems/situations go away with discharge / water base / plastisol wow printing I am going to say it is all the same as above - correct ink usage with the correct mesh and tension. That does not mean I am right though, just what works for our shop
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I DO like higher mesh counts on plastisol, but 305 is my max, being I am a manual shop. DotToneDan sepped a 6 color WB discharge SIMULATED PROCESS(!) job for me a while back that came out nicely. I printed all the colors through 305, which I previously thought was impossible on a manual. WRONGO!!
You know, now that I think of it.... I don't remember the "Zombie Skin" on that 120 piece job. Maybe I just forgot. It WAS cooler weather though. Dunno.....
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we changed from Matsui discharge base and whites to CCI and we no longer have that problem
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Screenprintguy, I assume you mean Discharge bases, although the problem seems about the same with straight waterbased inks on light shirts to me.
I've not used the CCI Bases. Do the Matsui PC Pigments seem compatible with them? Do you use additives, say Printgen MG, or Fixer N?
I'd really like to know the specifics from anyone who has managed this problem successfully. I am not expecting moving to an Auto anytime in the next few months.
Stan
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I still use the printgen and the fixer to lock in the colors, just switched to cci for discharge base and discharge white. Anytime we had an issue with straight wb caking up was from either alot of air flow near the press drying the wet on wet ink on the back of the screens, or the heat from the flash on the boards causing the wb ink to dehydrate. we no longer run our flash with wet on wet wb and or discharges and have had no problems. the Matsui discharge base would cake up after 100 or so wet on wet prints and now with cci not only do we not have that issue, but the discharge is deeper in the fabric, colors are more true and it seems to cure quicker in the dryer vs the matsui. We still use the matsui pigments and activator works with the cci no issues as well.
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That is exactly what I was looking for, THANKS! I'm going to order both CCI Bases and give it a try.
I guess I do have a couple of quart samples of the CCI D-bases here...one is marked "Regular" and the second one must be the "Premium" but it isn't marked. That might be just enough to do the job I need to run by Friday.
Screenprintguy, how much Printgen MG and Fixer N do you add to your CCI D-Bases? With Matsui, I never exceed 3% of the Fixer N, but I have at times doubled that percentage of the Printgen MG....to maximize the wetting agent effect.
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That is exactly what I was looking for, THANKS! I'm going to order both CCI Bases and give it a try.
I guess I do have a couple of quart samples of the CCI D-bases here...one is marked "Regular" and the second one must be the "Premium" but it isn't marked. That might be just enough to do the job I need to run by Friday.
Screenprintguy, how much Printgen MG and Fixer N do you add to your CCI D-Bases? With Matsui, I never exceed 3% of the Fixer N, but I have at times doubled that percentage of the Printgen MG....to maximize the wetting agent effect.
You dont need Fixer for the white or base FYI.
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So why no Fixer N?? Do you mean it isn't necessary with the CCI bases? I thought it was designed to enhance wash fastness, so I've been using it in all my WB Pigmented Discharge, and straight WB jobs. I don't use it in straight discharge jobs, meaning non-pigmented.
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So why no Fixer N?? Do you mean it isn't necessary with the CCI bases? I thought it was designed to enhance wash fastness, so I've been using it in all my WB Pigmented Discharge, and straight WB jobs. I don't use it in straight discharge jobs, meaning non-pigmented.
We use it in every color but the white and discharge base. I have been told by two Reps that there is no need to add it when asked so we never have. We have not had any issues so far.
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we still add some fixer en, we probably don't need to, but we still do for covering all bases. I actually ran an inhouse line run 2 weeks ago without fixer, fist wash and dry looks just as brilliant so this will be a time test and we will continue to use the fixer untill we run out and see how several wash/wear dries go over the next couple of months. Only time will tell.
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just to add, we ran into this same issue with matsui white, but we had more of a stencil problem than ink. Our emulsion wasn't exposed properly. we went from an sbq to a dual cure and we hadn't hit the correct expoure time, so that was creating a bit of havoc for us with the dreaded "zombie skin". I know exactly what you are talking about. I bet the temp in the shop didn't help us either. I'll watch the air temp and see where we are when this issue comes up. Hopefully I can try some cci stuff and not worry about it at all.
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just to add, we ran into this same issue with matsui white, but we had more of a stencil problem than ink. Our emulsion wasn't exposed properly. we went from an sbq to a dual cure and we hadn't hit the correct expoure time, so that was creating a bit of havoc for us with the dreaded "zombie skin". I know exactly what you are talking about. I bet the temp in the shop didn't help us either. I'll watch the air temp and see where we are when this issue comes up. Hopefully I can try some cci stuff and not worry about it at all.
I talked to my CCI rep this afternoon, and he transferred me to a CCI lab tech in California. Between the two of them, they talked me into trying a gallon of CCI WR25 emulsion. Lab man suspects the ink that picks up under the stencils will be less of a problem than with my Ulano QT Discharge. And I have read good things about WR 25 here and on other forums. So we'll see......
But I ordered some more CCI D-white and both clear bases too, along with the WR 25.
I'm likely going to make the jump soon from Matsui to Sericol for PMS emulations. The CCI D-white is a clear winner over everything else I've tried so far, so I won't buy any more Sericol white.
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The WR25 is a great emulsion but I haven't ran anymore than 300 pieces thru it and re claims pretty easy as well.
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Gerry, does your WR 25 reclaim with a "stringy" texture? That is definitely something I dislike about some of the WB emulsions I've tried. The Ulano QT Discharge doesn't tend to wash off in strings. Some of the others I've tried seem to reclaim better WITH the application of a stencil hardener, which seems counter-intuitive. But without the hardener, they create a drain plugging mass of blue strings.
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No strings at all. A few minutes (like 5 or so) in the dip tank and it washes out with ease, never tried manually reclaiming though. The only time I had stringy emulsion was when using a pure photopolymer.
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Good. I'm anxious to try some. I don't use a dip tank though, and that might be part of my stringy issue with the discharge emulsions I've tried from International Coatings, and Murikami. I just spray the reclaimer out of a squirt bottle reduced
10-1 with water. I like Gemzyme from CCI, and occasionally have used their Microwash II, which is actually a solution designed for dip tank use. It supposedly has an ink degradent along with the emulsion reclaimer. I just haven't tried a dip tank. Maybe I should......
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I love the dip tank but I hear it's not so good with roller frames but I'm on static alums. CCI has a great promotion for a dip tank and solution for like $250 bucks. Killer deal
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the "stringy washout" or sometimes flaking off of emulsion is typically caused by improper exposure, or wrong emulsion selection for the print method. . .I'm liking the auquasol hv, I'm 99% sold on it for my one pot emulsion. so far so good. I have a gallon of xenon 902qdc and it still feels tacky even when dry. the 925WR sounds good too, I think a ton of guys use that. oh wait, you said CCI, I'm talking Ulano. . .too many damn emulsions to keep track of.
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Don't forget this database guys... Like Johnny 5 it needs more INPUT!
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgdPJ7c6eSh6dFZ4bVBSTFVXZzZ5eFNvX3JyVk9vQ0E#gid=0
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Had that problem, we mix white with clear base 50/50 or more.... Should help immensely
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Don't forget their Hardener X for long runs on the emulsion. Also CCI has pigment kits for $75. Base, PC, and ZFS is all you need......none of that other stuff. Thin with water. Formulas are taken straight from the Pantone books
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Don't forget their Hardener X for long runs on the emulsion. Also CCI has pigment kits for $75. Base, PC, and ZFS is all you need......none of that other stuff. Thin with water. Formulas are taken straight from the Pantone books
Since When?!?! I've pestered my rep about that promised eventuality. Didn't know they had come through....
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For at least a few weeks now. Again you take the %s from the actuaL pms books as the have formulated their PCs to match the Pantone colors such as Rubine, Transparent white etc.
BTW this is Tony Pep logging in under Kevin till our IT guys get me set up.
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That is excellent news. And good luck getting settled in, Tony.
Thanks for posting.
Stan
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Hopefully they tweaked their formulas. The CCI red I saw was unimpressive. Sericol red was much much brighter.
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I have yet tto test the CCI PCs but can attest that the Sericol products are freaking awesome especially the flos. They also have Pantone formulas.
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Hopefully they tweaked their formulas. The CCI red I saw was unimpressive. Sericol red was much much brighter.
I have been printing a pretty nice W.B. Discharge Red based on Sericol Yellow Shade Red. Best Red I have gotten to date. An example of how I've been mixing it, say....in a 200 gram batch: 100 grams Sericol Yellow Shade Red, 90 grams Matsui Bright Discharge base and 10 grams of Matsui Neo Red Pigment. To that, I'll add 6 grams of Discharge Agent, 6 grams of Matsui Fixer N, and 6 grams of Matsui PrintGen MG for a total of 218 grams. (I'm all manual, so on press, I'll mist a little water.)
I've had a problem with my reds shifting either too much towards the pink or towards orange.... or maybe even magenta. This has been working for me for nice, bright discharge red, and it seems to wash pretty well.
Having said that, I don't have the entire set of Sericol Texcharge stuff, and perhaps their red formulas will be better than what I've described above. I was actually holding off purchasing the entire Texcharge set, until I had given CCI PC pigments a shot. Looks like I can test it very soon....
Stan