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General => General Discussion and ??? => Topic started by: Inkworks on August 10, 2012, 11:27:19 PM
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I've seen many shops where guys duck under the safety cables to re-ink, adjust etc. and shudder to think what it would be like to be caught in there if someone hits the foot pedal or pushes the button at the wrong time. The closest I've seen is an 18 year old apprentice get thrown 5-6' to the ground when he turned into the danger zone while unloading a shirt. He wasn't hurt bad, but seeing someone one the wrong end of an index sure re-enforced how bad it would be to be between print heads if that happened.
Anybody have any stories?
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Duck a safety cable.. That's grounds for immediate termination under my watch and you will not get unemployment for shucking safety measures put in place to protect the employee. No amount of saving time is worth the potential injury.
The new servo driven machines will cut a man in half at the bare minimum, a broken back is guaranteed.
The older air driven servos you can hold back to get outa the way, had to do it once.
I have also been hit in the forehead by a pallet that knocked me out, old air driven challenger that I didn't duck under quick enough. Still have the scar from that one as it also cut me pretty good.
My scariest encounter was with an 18 color american, touch screen. For some reason the machine stopped mid-index. Under the carousel in the center was a hand crank wheel.. I started turning it.. a few turns then suddenly the machine indexed while my head was inside the carousel frame work... I have never ducked and hit the floor so fast in my life.
The very first auto I worked on, american centurian 8 color, chain driven was acquired in a sell off because a women was bent in half and paralyzed from the waist down when she got caught between the heads.
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since you asked, thankfully i never have been indexed. bumped a few times but nothing bad.
but thats not a real interesting story.
now once in 94-95 watching a crew run a big 16 color all over precision oval. wing pallets, so two guys loading, and the guy in, well the bad spot, was a good sized guy and somehow got himself inbetween the pallet and the first head and he mustve had his foot on his safety switch without being safe and the machine indexed. picked the guy up like a ragdoll and slammed him into the print head, which triggered the safety bumps and e-stopped the machine and let the guy just crumble onto the floor. thank god he wasnt seriously hurt, but it was enough to shut production down for the night. guy showed up to get a check a few days later and was bruised from his waist to his chest. never saw him again after that. so glad he wasnt hurt as that couldve been a really ugly scene, but ill never get that image out of my head, its burned in for life, no question.
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I met a production manager on vacation in Hawaii that no longer worked on the floor, just behind the desk. She too ignored the safety features one day and broke her back as a result. Several months in hospital/therapy and will never walk the same. Lucky she can even walk! Super nice lady, hope she is doing well
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I was under the machine adjusting the up and down shock once while the machine was indexing, I raised my back up to high and the screws that mount the pallets to the arms cut through my shirt and gashed my back open. Never did that again. Another time one of our workers got his arm caught between the screen and the pallet as it indexed, bent it in half. Scared me to death, we took him straight to the hospital. Another time at another shop I worked at, a manager that liked to stick his nose where it didnt belong, put his hip in front of a pallet as it indexed. We all laughed as he limped out of the shop.
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John, I used to have to do the same thing to our centurian, it would stop mid index and I'd have to crawl underneath it and turn that wheel. Sometimes it would take off, sometimes it wouldn't. Luckily the first time I went under there the printer at the time warned me that it might index and to keep my head down and out of the way. It might have had a bad ending if he didn't warn me, cause I had no idea about automatic equipment at that time, much less how a mosier drive worked.
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heard a story from New Buffalo. A girl was working on an older gauntlet, for some reason she leaned into the press a bit too much, got caught and she was pinned in the press with her arm on the platen, under the flash. From what he was saying, she was stuck for about 2 minutes before they could get her out . . said he just went home and wept like a baby, watching this poor girl get wrecked like that
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As of right now.. I know of only one company who has put a load limiter on their machine to help prevent index related body damage.. Sroque.
They claim that if a person happens to step in a head.. which is almost impossible with the safety bars and safety lasers.. but just in case they do, the sudden increase on the load will cause the servo to stop dead in it's tracks.
I know that when you hit the e-stop or safety cable on an M&R machine that is servo driven mid index.. the clevis fork disengages allowing the carousel to free wheel as well. How the new CH III and it's belt driven fanuc drive work, I do not know as that servo has more power behind it than some cars on the road.
The best practice is training and awareness. I always had a chat with new operators and made dead certain they understood the dangers involved with the machine. I've used a cantaloupe melon a few times to exhibit what can happen to a head or a hip should it ever get between a platen and screen holder during index.. the eyes wide open on their faces and scattered melon on the floor usually got my point across.
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I was pulling shirts on my contract printers auto and the dude loading shirts was flipped up over the pallet and almost broke his leg. Played it off before the owner came back . I couldn't help but laugh dudes face was red with embarassment. I felt like a d-bag but couldnt help it.
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our gauntlet is air driven, so not bad. that being said, there is no reason to get in the middle of a machine while it's running. I re-ink outside the platen travel area and if I am under the press, I NEVER NEVER NEVER get high enough to get in the platens. I stay low.
I've been hit in the hip while loading or unloading. It knocks you back and that alone lets you now the power of the press, even though it's not near what servo presses are, you still respect it.
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John, I believe the e stop on new M&R equipment will stop the index immediately, even in mid index. It doesn't finish the index. It's an instant stop. I know there are safety features coming that are almost ridiculous though.
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I think touting safety is a big thing and I am glad to see manufacturers going beyond the minimums.
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I think our machine has a 2.5hp motor running the servo, I don't see how it could do much damage but I'm sure it does. I've never tried to stop it from indexing so I don't know how much force it puts out, it just doesn't seem like it would be much. When you do hit the E stop, it goes into free wheel mode but I wonder if there is a force against it if it will still go as easily into free wheel?
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I think our machine has a 2.5hp motor running the servo, I don't see how it could do much damage
Gear reduction is powerful stuff! I saw mine go free-wheel when a safety cable got bumped mid-index, the thing spun about 10 full revolutions before we even wanted to attempt to slow it down. That was part of what drove home just how powerful the servo really is, to not only accelerate the whole platen hub assembly, but to slow it down too. Well that and seeing it hip-check a 200lb. guy 5'+ to the floor and not even slow down.
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On my Javelin I believe I didn't have the indexer lined up right and hit start and that sucker reversed indexed and came back free wheeling like a bat out of hell. I couldn't believe how fast that table spun.
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I think our machine has a 2.5hp motor running the servo,
It's not the HP that matters, its the torque generated from the gear reduction that sends that 1000lb carousel into space and then stops it on a dime!
Electric motors on 3 phase create gobs and gobs of torque that has to be controlled with gears and such. Look at our 'hybrid' cars.. the motors in those things are amazing.
The new M&R equip, specifically the CH III uses a Fanuc motor and belt drive from the formula's to turn the carousel.. there is no option to freewheel that baby so I'd imagine when you hit estop.. it stops dead in it's tracks. (when rich gets back from the Olympics.. I'd love to hear from him or anyone at the factory to confirm our thoughts)
When we talk about safety, think about the stuff we have in cars, all the systems now put in place to prevent accidents.. all they are really doing is taking away the focus of driving and letting us be more comfortable in the car to listen to our ipods and have plenty of places to put our large drink cup from micky d's or starfucks. Cars now will brake for you, let you know when you're driving to close and even park them selves!
Who here owns a german car.. like say a porsche or some of the older BMW's or even any European sports car that is meant to be driven, tell me how many cup holders and other attentions sucking gadgets you have at your disposal.. what you do have are all the essential controls to DRIVE the vehicle and things like radio knobs and AC controls (if you even have ac as it sucks HP from the motor that is needed to go faster) are down and to the right, even things like wiper and headlight controls are out of the way and out of eyesite as they know and realize, when you are in control of your vehicle, you are being safe.
Same goes for our equipment.. be in control and know where and how things can go wrong and you will be safe.
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You guys have seen this right?
http://youtu.be/B3FIAiJLaDw?t=2m1s (http://youtu.be/B3FIAiJLaDw?t=2m1s)
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I think our machine has a 2.5hp motor running the servo, I don't see how it could do much damage but I'm sure it does. I've never tried to stop it from indexing so I don't know how much force it puts out, it just doesn't seem like it would be much. When you do hit the E stop, it goes into free wheel mode but I wonder if there is a force against it if it will still go as easily into free wheel?
Regardless the indexer is rotating a huge amount of weight. Where the center of the carriage is it may turn let's call it 10mph but all the way out at the ends of the platens it's traveling much faster. So even if the indexer is weak it's still a huge mass with inertia behind it.
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BTW I won't even talk about being indexed by my machine that had buggy software and decided to reverse index.
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Had a great educational experience for the newer crew last week--rolling table rolls a little too close to the press, and the index smacked it hard enough to send it (and the couple cases of shirts piled out on it) several feet.
Seems like people are paying a bit more attention now.
I think John's analogy with cars is great--those are market forces at work though, right?
As a culture, (or lack thereof,) we prefer texting, listening to the stereo, and drinking overpriced coffee--driving and paying attention to the road is just this drag you HAVE to deal with to get from point A to point B.
Who wants to waste time and money training a pressman on safety, or teaching them some common sense practices for dealing with machinery?
"This is idiot proof--here's how you load, here's how you unload, now don't stop the press till break time..."
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You guys have seen this right?
[url]http://youtu.be/B3FIAiJLaDw?t=2m1s[/url] ([url]http://youtu.be/B3FIAiJLaDw?t=2m1s[/url])
for a brief second I thought it was going to end like that 1970's lathe and tooling safety training video i watched once.
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You guys have seen this right?
[url]http://youtu.be/B3FIAiJLaDw?t=2m1s[/url] ([url]http://youtu.be/B3FIAiJLaDw?t=2m1s[/url])
for a brief second I thought it was going to end like that 1970's lathe and tooling safety training video i watched once.
Yeah, that was a great job of queuing up there Chris!
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I think our machine has a 2.5hp motor running the servo,
It's not the HP that matters, its the torque generated from the gear reduction that sends that 1000lb carousel into space and then stops it on a dime!
Electric motors on 3 phase create gobs and gobs of torque that has to be controlled with gears and such. Look at our 'hybrid' cars.. the motors in those things are amazing.
The new M&R equip, specifically the CH III uses a Fanuc motor and belt drive from the formula's to turn the carousel.. there is no option to freewheel that baby so I'd imagine when you hit estop.. it stops dead in it's tracks. (when rich gets back from the Olympics.. I'd love to hear from him or anyone at the factory to confirm our thoughts)
When we talk about safety, think about the stuff we have in cars, all the systems now put in place to prevent accidents.. all they are really doing is taking away the focus of driving and letting us be more comfortable in the car to listen to our ipods and have plenty of places to put our large drink cup from micky d's or starfucks. Cars now will brake for you, let you know when you're driving to close and even park them selves!
Who here owns a german car.. like say a porsche or some of the older BMW's or even any European sports car that is meant to be driven, tell me how many cup holders and other attentions sucking gadgets you have at your disposal.. what you do have are all the essential controls to DRIVE the vehicle and things like radio knobs and AC controls (if you even have ac as it sucks HP from the motor that is needed to go faster) are down and to the right, even things like wiper and headlight controls are out of the way and out of eyesite as they know and realize, when you are in control of your vehicle, you are being safe.
Same goes for our equipment.. be in control and know where and how things can go wrong and you will be safe.
The servo system on the Challenger 3 is a Mitsubisi system and when the emergency button is pushed stops immediately . The gear ratio on the planetary gearbox allows for manual rotation when the emergency stop is activated. You can manually push the pallets but it has a lot of drag on it. There will be a new safety system,actually three different types displayed at the SGAI show on the Challenger 3D.
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You guys have seen this right?
[url]http://youtu.be/B3FIAiJLaDw?t=2m1s[/url] ([url]http://youtu.be/B3FIAiJLaDw?t=2m1s[/url])
for a brief second I thought it was going to end like that 1970's lathe and tooling safety training video i watched once.
Yeah, that was a great job of queuing up there Chris!
It's not a fair comparison as the digotex uses tiny little independent drive ac motors on each arm racing around on a track so this is not a difficult feature to add on due to that brilliant design. But, it's definitely the safest (and smartest) machine I've ever seen due to this feature.
For the rest, I really feel like SOP is paramount. Lasers, bars, cables and gates all help sure but it's all about your protocol. Like rock climbing- you're hanging yourself by your fingertips thousands of feet in the air with nothing but some cams and nuts jammed into rock cracks with rope threaded through it to save you if you slip and yet it's a safer activity than the drive to get there. Why? Because you have a system and you stick to it no matter what.
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BTW I won't even talk about being indexed by my machine that had buggy software and decided to reverse index.
Speechless at this. I would not have kept my cool if a machine did that in our shop.
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The servo system on the Challenger 3 is a Mitsubisi system and when the emergency button is pushed stops immediately . The gear ratio on the planetary gearbox allows for manual rotation when the emergency stop is activated. You can manually push the pallets but it has a lot of drag on it. There will be a new safety system,actually three different types displayed at the SGAI show on the Challenger 3D.
THANK YOU RICH!!
If things work the way I hope.. I'll see you at the show to check out the new features.
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I think our machine has a 2.5hp motor running the servo,
It's not the HP that matters, its the torque generated from the gear reduction that sends that 1000lb carousel into space and then stops it on a dime!
Electric motors on 3 phase create gobs and gobs of torque that has to be controlled with gears and such. Look at our 'hybrid' cars.. the motors in those things are amazing.
The new M&R equip, specifically the CH III uses a Fanuc motor and belt drive from the formula's to turn the carousel.. there is no option to freewheel that baby so I'd imagine when you hit estop.. it stops dead in it's tracks. (when rich gets back from the Olympics.. I'd love to hear from him or anyone at the factory to confirm our thoughts)
When we talk about safety, think about the stuff we have in cars, all the systems now put in place to prevent accidents.. all they are really doing is taking away the focus of driving and letting us be more comfortable in the car to listen to our ipods and have plenty of places to put our large drink cup from micky d's or starfucks. Cars now will brake for you, let you know when you're driving to close and even park them selves!
Who here owns a german car.. like say a porsche or some of the older BMW's or even any European sports car that is meant to be driven, tell me how many cup holders and other attentions sucking gadgets you have at your disposal.. what you do have are all the essential controls to DRIVE the vehicle and things like radio knobs and AC controls (if you even have ac as it sucks HP from the motor that is needed to go faster) are down and to the right, even things like wiper and headlight controls are out of the way and out of eyesite as they know and realize, when you are in control of your vehicle, you are being safe.
Same goes for our equipment.. be in control and know where and how things can go wrong and you will be safe.
The servo system on the Challenger 3 is a Mitsubisi system and when the emergency button is pushed stops immediately . The gear ratio on the planetary gearbox allows for manual rotation when the emergency stop is activated. You can manually push the pallets but it has a lot of drag on it. There will be a new safety system,actually three different types displayed at the SGAI show on the Challenger 3D.
Gotta see that, I will be at the SGIA show! Can't wait.
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I've done any number of incredibly stupid things, but not this one. I just don't trust anything anymore, turn the damn power off first.
Steve
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Then there is the infamous Winterland story where an op got his head crushed on a hydraulic oval operating with the safety bypassed. Sadly he died instantly. Afterward they caged off all the machines with a deadmans switch so that you could not work on the business end of the machine without the power being turned off.
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The servo system on the Challenger 3 is a Mitsubisi system and when the emergency button is pushed stops immediately . The gear ratio on the planetary gearbox allows for manual rotation when the emergency stop is activated.
Shouldn't the capture fork break to stop the machine from killing someone? ;)
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The servo system on the Challenger 3 is a Mitsubisi system and when the emergency button is pushed stops immediately . The gear ratio on the planetary gearbox allows for manual rotation when the emergency stop is activated.
Shouldn't the capture fork break to stop the machine from killing someone? ;)
Their is no fork on the CHIII, its a belt driven carousel. It would be hard to get inside that machine thanks to laser and other safety measures.
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Reference = missed
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about 10 or more years ago i was unloading on a press and we had stopped to add some ink to a screen. the press operator had his foot resting on the footswitch that started the press - the operator shifted his weight and accidentally stepped on the switch. the person adding the ink was inside the press - he barely was able to yell. the press was pneumatic and we were able to push the boards away from him. he was very lucky the press was only air operated... before we started back up we removed the footswitch. we also have a policy that before the operator is going to start the press they have to yell "clear" to make sure that body parts are not inside the press. we also have a rule that if you are under the press, you have to open the yellow cord next to where you are. if you are taping at head one, and move around the press, open the safety cord next to where you are working - ensures that someone will see you if they look for an open yellow cord.
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those are great ways. There are usually only 2 people around the press at a time, and you have to make sure the other person is clear of the press by asking them. I like the safety cable thing by where you are working. We usually offset the platens most of the time, which lets you know something is up when they get moved.
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those are great ways. There are usually only 2 people around the press at a time, and you have to make sure the other person is clear of the press by asking them. I like the safety cable thing by where you are working. We usually offset the platens most of the time, which lets you know something is up when they get moved.
sometimes there are about 20-30 employees on the production floor - sometimes two people will be taping up registration marks, or wiping screens - it can get confusing to keep track of people when working on a rush job.
we have a 12 page "press awareness" safety manual that details how to use all the safeties while working on or around any of the four presses. Everything from safety cords/safety bars, light tree (on the anatols) and pictures of where the emergency stop buttons are. also - no one can walk behind the loader and unloader while the press is running... each employee has to read and take a quiz on what they read.
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Reference = missed
I didn't miss it! Guess a few did though since there has been no mention of it.
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Reference = missed
I didn't miss it! Guess a few did though since there has been no mention of it.
Lol I thought it, just didnt type it.