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screen printing => Ink and Chemicals => Topic started by: Logoman on August 17, 2012, 07:37:26 AM
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I just bought a quart of Stencil Remover 25/1 and paid $92.00 for it. This stuff is getting really expensive any other options?
LoGo
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we use CCI Envirostrip
on Nazdars website a gallon sells for 35.74 and can be diluted 10:1
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yes, Logo, that does sound very high for a quart. I thought that even the highly concentrated ones like that are usually closer to $30. What kind is it? Perhaps you should double check that you weren't charged for a gallon.
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The active ingredient in most if not all stencil removers is sodium metaperiodate. I'm sure I spelled it wrong but it was mostly sold as a dry agent before the mfgrs figured ot they could make more money by using H20 as a carrier. Soon everyone wised up and they smartly switched to "concentrates".
To be fair this may have something to to do with shipping constraints. Either way it is a fairly inexpensive product and you should shop around.
Andy might recall the days when many used bleach belive it or not!
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The use of bleach as either an emergency substitute, or cheapskate home remedy used to come up frequently on the old TSPMB (and I bet it still pops up on TSF nowadays!)
My first few years did not involve the use of direct emulsions, but rather indirect films, both knife cut and photographic like today's (though with carbon arcs, of course)
I do remember the shift away from silk to polyester and nylon because of the bleach or emulsion remover's harshness.
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The use of bleach as either an emergency substitute, or cheapskate home remedy used to come up frequently on the old TSPMB (and I bet it still pops up on TSF nowadays!)
My first few years did not involve the use of direct emulsions, but rather indirect films, both knife cut and photographic like today's (though with carbon arcs, of course)
I do remember the shift away from silk to polyester and nylon because of the bleach or emulsion remover's harshness.
Hahaha ^^ You're old! ;)
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First prints I did were knife cut and indirect film, you callin me old? ;D
The other thing about using the powdered form as opposed to a liquid is the handling--most of the powder ER's I've found have to be shipped hazmat--and there go your savings.
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powder is super cheap in the long run.
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At Xenon the price for our 25 to 1 is 58.5 per Gallon.
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You guys may want to take a look at CCI Gemzyme. About $27 a gallon it can be diluted up to 20:1.
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I buy crystals from ICC. I love it. I can not find an invoice but I know I like the price...
Matt
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Did they ship hazardous?
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We use SPA emulsion remover in our dip tank. Just did a total flush and refill of a 40 gallon dip tank, 15 gals of SPA emulsion remover, the rest water, screens dipped in this mix are ready for the pressure washer after 2 mins of dip. Pretty awesome stuff. I believe we pay about 125.00 per 5 gallon of the SPA emulsion remover. I prefer it over Franmar, and Easi-way that we've tried in the past.
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Now I'm curious if there are suppliers shipping it standard--I know the stuff from performance does, and the ICC rep gave me some samples last month and mentioned they come hazmat as well, perhaps some suppliers are not?
Back when I used ER-80, it was 20% or so periodic acid, and it was the strongest stuff I could get without weird shipping... but it could have been because of local delivery.
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Now I'm curious if there are suppliers shipping it standard--I know the stuff from performance does, and the ICC rep gave me some samples last month and mentioned they come hazmat as well, perhaps some suppliers are not?
Back when I used ER-80, it was 20% or so periodic acid, and it was the strongest stuff I could get without weird shipping... but it could have been because of local delivery.
ER-80? is that stronger than ER-35?
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Now I'm curious if there are suppliers shipping it standard--I know the stuff from performance does, and the ICC rep gave me some samples last month and mentioned they come hazmat as well, perhaps some suppliers are not?
Back when I used ER-80, it was 20% or so periodic acid, and it was the strongest stuff I could get without weird shipping... but it could have been because of local delivery.
ER-80? is that stronger than ER-35?
45 more so! ;)
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ER-35 is 1:4
ER-80 is 1:20/30. so not quite. ;D
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ER-35 is 1:4
ER-80 is 1:20/30. so not quite. ;D
Is it really that much stronger? wow I bought the rong stuff. I have 5 gallons of gr-35 here. I have a dip tank on order and I am not sure if i am going to use the Dip and Strip that it comes with or just use just Gr-35.
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that 1:20/30 is the typical strong stuff that I have seen. First I saw when I started my shop was from Autotype, A pint lasted me a long time! Then I saw that everyone had something like it. Last I got was from Kiwo.
Check pricing, figure in shipping especially, and it's usually the better deal. If you have to pay for shipping water, you want as little as possible.
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good info. Thanks Frog.
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ER-35 is 1:4
ER-80 is 1:20/30. so not quite. ;D
Is it really that much stronger? wow I bought the rong stuff. I have 5 gallons of gr-35 here. I have a dip tank on order and I am not sure if i am going to use the Dip and Strip that it comes with or just use just Gr-35.
I use the Dip n Strip in my dip tank, i like it personally. just scrape ink from screens, pull tape and they are ready to dip. cpl minutes in the tank and the ink and emulsion blow right out, good stuff. 3 gallons in about 30gal of water.
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I wish someone would convince me a dip tank is the way to go with Newmans. But that is off topic to this thread.
I have both statics and roller frames and I'm still using spray bottles. CCI Gemzyme...which works fine, I guess. I like the idea of the pure powder though. Especially if I went to a dip tank system.
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I use my newmans in the dip tank, no problems ive noticed.
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I wish someone would convince me a dip tank is the way to go with Newmans. But that is off topic to this thread.
Let me guess.. you think they'll leak because you heard some guy said his leaked once.
unless your frames are the first gen's with the black nylon end caps.. get a dip tank!
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Well, partly. The used ones I bought were SUCH a mess....from caked-on emulsion, super hardened from poor management and partial reclaiming, but also because many if them had leaked and corroded the insides. (They are not first generation frames, by the way.) Aluminum doesn't rust, of course, and the oxides that did form weren't of any concern at all. But they most assuredly HAD in fact, leaked. Several of them....
You surely will wonder how I KNEW they had leaked. Well, because they were crushed and dented so severely, I had to take them apart to straighten them...a Craigslist boo-boo, and a story for another day. I pulled the end caps with a dent puller, and "spooned" out the dents. Sheesh.
But mostly my hesitation is sediment build-up in the grooves, under the tape, mucking up the re-meshing process, and dripping out at in-opportune moments from frames not completely ready to recoat. If that is not a concern, I'm more interested.
Oh, and did I mention I've never tried a dip tank at all, even for my statics? It does intrigue me though.
The powdery mess inside the tubes is a non-event, and nobody.....but NOBODY(!) should ever have a reason to know its there, much less see it. (Nobody normal, that is.) But I guarantee, those tubes are NOT hermetically sealed on my MZX's....no, no, no!
The newer ones, at least the M-3's I've seen can be said to have a "blind" hole to accept the assembly bolts. I'm guessing an arrangement like an "acorn" nut sealed in the end-casting would approximate current spec. Those probably CAN'T leak.
Back to the topic, does the one step ink degradent/emulsion remover really pass muster?? And if not, does it require TWO tanks?
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I often wonder why some manufacturers sit on their hands when they have a good product that could be made even better with a couple of simple mods.
Specifically on the Newmans if they were my product and I was aware of the comments here i would sell the hell out of the following features especially with the onset of other retens on the market.
The bolt hole for example is in an end cap that is cast from a pettern. If the casting is not longenough to have a blind hole the patterns could easily be modified by simply adding on a extension to the patterns to add material on the inner end when cast. It would not even have to be pretty and not much more that a 1/4 or 3/8 addition in length adding virtually no cost in material.
On the tubes leaking at the joint of the tube and end caps a simple cheap o-ring added to the end cap would solve that problem.
the end caps are most likely bonded to the tubes with a thermally set adhesive that the manufacturer assumes would seal out liquid also.
a simple oring groove in the end cap would not add hardley anything to the manufacturing process especially on automated machinery.
Synthetic rubber o-rings in painfully low numbers are dirt cheap, literally 3 or 4 cents each in the size required.
If i owned stretching devices i would supply, (for a price) a hand held tool that screen junkies like me could use to slide up and down in the locking strip slot to clean out all the emulsion and other gook that builds up in there. Oddly enough it would look alot like the modified profile of a locking strip on a Sure Lock run up and down to chip / chase the gunk out.
Now my personal favorite.... Locking strips , i think i will sit on this one for a while :-X
mooseman
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Speaking of those channels.
I have some M3's that I bought used and they were in pretty good condition, the frames were clean... but the mesh was not taken care of very well. It seems like gunk has built up in the channels, under the strips and mesh and such. This makes pulling the strips/screens kind of hard and if not careful they will bind up and be almost impossible to get out. Once removed all the gunk pretty much falls out (though I wouldn't mind a tool to help clean it out like Moose was talking about.)
My question is, what is the best way to breakdown all that gunk buried in that channel to make strip removal easier?
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flat head screwdriver! thats what i use.
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Moose, if you have some newer M3's that need re-meshed, pull a bolt completely out and see of the holes are blind. (I think they are.) I only have MZX's and the specific generation I have have a hex recess machines into the casting, to which is placed a 7/16 NC Stainless Steel Hex Nut. So those threads are much "harder" than just aluminum threads, tapped in a blind hole would be. The nut could be replaced with a "closed ended" nut...like an acorn nut....thus no leakage.
And the end caps are epoxied in. I used a propane torch to warm the epoxy before disassembly. The fit is a few thousands sloppy, to allow room for the epoxy. Pretty slick, and no leakage is possible on a properly epoxied assembly. Oh and quite strong, and VERY ridgid. A modern M3 is a fairly mature product from in engineering parlance. I used Geougeon Brothers G-Flex to re-assemble mine. it is marketed under the West Systems brand as a boat building epoxy.
Giligan, I bought a jumbo eyedropper from a Science Supply Store in Wichita, and dribble Goof Off onto the channels and let it sit for 2 or 3 minutes. a little "push/pull" with a needle nose pliers has always broken loose the licking strips. Franmar has something which I believe is called Stripee Doo. (Edit: Nope. it is called Ickee Stickee Unstuck. sorry....) It doesn't dry out as bad as Goof Off, and might be a better choice. I've even used both, in sort of a one/two punch arrangement. Like I said my frames were beyond horrible.
Sheesh, I hope nobody has to do what I did. But if you do, ping me off line, and I'll walk you through it.
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Giligan, I bought a jumbo eyedropper from a Science Supply Store in Wichita, and dribble Goof Off onto the channels and let it sit for 2 or 3 minutes. a little "push/pull" with a needle nose pliers has always broken loose the licking strips. Franmar has something which I believe is called Stripee Doo. I'd doesn't dry out as bad as Goof Off, and might be a better choice. I've even used both, in sort of a one/two punch arrangement. Like I said my frames were beyond horrible.
Sheesh, I hope nobody has to do what I did. But if you do, ping me off line, and I'll walk you through it.
I'm about to place an order with those techsupportsps guys and was planning on getting some ickee stickie unstuck and maybe something else from the franmar line. Might need some stripee doo.
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Wait....it was actually Ickee Stickee Unstuck I used, not Stripee Doo...after dribbling on the Goo Gone. Sorry. I'll correct that post in a minute.
I found that if I could dribble the Goo Gone in the track, and get just the tinyest bit of movement out of one end of the stuck strip, I could work it back and forth getting more and more of the strip to free up. I employed the Ickee Stickee Unstuck as a last resort. It barely evaporates, leaving the "stuff" right where you need it for a loooong time. Needle nose pliers, or needle nose Vice Grips are invaluable.
But the whole seized-up locking strip thang....that's what I want to avoid. It seems to me that it would be worse with a dip tank, due to sediment in the tank. I could be wrong.
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Wait....it was actually Ickee Stickee Unstuck I used, not Stripee Doo...after dribbling on the Goo Gone. Sorry. I'll correct that post in a minute.
I found that if I could dribble the Goo Gone in the track, and get just the tinyest bit of movement out of one end of the stuck strip, I could work it back and forth getting more and more of the strip to free up. I employed the Ickee Stickee Unstuck as a last resort. It barely evaporates, leaving the "stuff" right where you need it for a loooong time. Needle nose pliers, or needle nose Vice Grips are invaluable.
But the whole seized-up locking strip thang....that's what I want to avoid. It seems to me that it would be worse with a dip tank, due to sediment in the tank. I could be wrong.
I thought that is what you might have meant but I wasn't gonna question success. ;)
Yeah, I have the same concerns about the dip tank... I wonder if some pvc stand offs on the bottom might help it from at least sitting directly in the muck.
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I know with static's you need a hold down cause they will float. With the weight of rollers it probably will sink by itself to the bottom
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I know with static's you need a hold down cause they will float. With the weight of rollers it probably will sink by itself to the bottom
But we want to keep it OFF the bottom. :)
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I know, hey there's an advantage to statics
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I know, hey there's an advantage to statics
If you say so Gerry. ;)
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Goop on the bottom, I made a scoop to scrape the crud off the bottom.
Stuck locking strips, PB Blaster and let it soak or slit the strip with a sharp knife and pry out. Older frames see the dip below.
Clean grove out, bent flat screw driver and Scotch Brite pad.
Stencil remover, One Stroke reclaiming powder. We haven't purchased it for a while but remember it was pretty cheap and worked well. One package of powder to five gallons of water.
Old gunk off frames, brake clean but it may remove the coating off the frames.
Gunk off old frames already missing coating or ones the coating is chipping or coming off, dip in a mild mixture of oxalic, muriatic acids and water, same solution for radiators. Dip frames for about 5 min, lightly scrub with a brush and flood with fresh water rinse.
Leaking bolts and old frames with plastic caps, seal washers. They are hard flat washers with a bonded rubber insert that will seal around the bolt and frame.