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screen printing => General Screen Printing => Topic started by: GraphicDisorder on August 26, 2012, 07:08:15 PM
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We ran this job today, Shelly and I had a discussion about this job and I wanted to get some outside opinions on how you would have printed it. (print order, how many flashes, wet on wet, etc)
It's 2 blues, orange, white ub, and white highlight.
We have a 8 color press, so please comment as if you have 8 color machine.
(http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/253844_433675690006801_15400586_n.jpg)
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Never printed on an auto so I don't know how well this would work, but I'll give it a go.
Head 1: White UB (150 S-Thread)
Head 2: Flash
Head 3: cool down
Head 4: cool down
Head 5: First Blue (305)
Head 6: Second Blue (305)
Head 7: Orange (305)
Head 8: Highlight White (305)
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It's hard to say just by looking at your final. The original art may suggest a different story to me. While prints can look great when we see them here, they could be dead on or they could be slightly off or worse...from the original.
This seems somewhat cut n dry on the surface and the print looks great. Nothing to compare to outside of that so its hard to say how we would decide to do it.
It could be done well in multiple ways and all would be right if the customer was happy.
Myself, my first choice is to do as high of a mesh count as I could get away with.
Many can't imagine it, but I would consider under basing the colors with a white on a 290-310 mesh. By goal us to achieve as little ink lay down as can be nrasrsaru to both underbase the top cord (enough) and to support making my top white bright as well.
All other colors would also be on 290-310 also.
I would flash the white in this most often, but on occasions, even on black garment, you can get away with no flash...depending on your art needs. Some jobs won't allow you to do that. For example, a wet underbase on the job even at high mesh would make your blue too pastel as you got into production.
More commonly, for everyone else, I do 230 base, flash and use high mesh on top...like between 290-310.
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Static frames you'd still suggest same Dan?
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FOR Platisol and traditional meshes:
1- UB White 230
2- Flash
3- HL White 230
4- L. Blue 230
5- Orange 200
6- Flash
7- Cool down
8- Dark Blue 230 to open up any distressed detail lost in wow of previous colours.
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230 base, 305 top colors:
WB
Flash
cool
blue
blue
orange
flash
HW
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Static frames you'd still suggest same Dan?
Nothing wrong with static frames and being able to do a job the way I described since we are focusing in on one job (as long as your static frames had a high tension at that time). 25n is 25n no matter static or Retentionables. For the most part, Retens are better than static simply because you can bring them back up to par and be more precise for re orders through documentation. With static, it is what it is and you hope it's currently high enough. I have seen a few shops buy pre stretched screens that come in with low tent ion. Can't always trust it's good enough. For wet on wet, you do need the best tension, off contact and peel. Ink type can also toss in a wrench.
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230 base, 305 top colors:
WB
Flash
cool
blue
blue
orange
flash
HW
This is the print order I would have used.
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I think we could do this particular job without 2 whites, but this is the first option if the highlight white screen is needed:
1. UB, 150/48 or 180/48, one stroke
2. Flash
3.
4. Light blue, 225/40
5. Dark blue, 225/40
6. Orange, 205 Newman roller mesh
7. Flash
8. Highlight white
If the highlight white screen is popping because of the lack of a cool down, then you can do the revolver mode, same mesh counts:
1st round:
1. UB
2. Flash
3.
4. Light Blue
5. Highlight White
6. Flash
7.
8.
2nd Round
1.
2.
3.Dark Blue
4.
5.
6. Flash
7.
8. Orange
This option would be with one white screen. I'd use one of several different mesh counts for the UB/white, a 110/71, 102 newman roller mesh, or a 135/48 could do it. Stencil thickness would play a huge role here, a thick stencil could provide you with the ink deposit required to get that white to look good.
1. UB, 110/71, 102 newman roller mesh, or a 135/48
2. Flash
3.
4. Light Blue
5. Dark Blue
6. Flash
7.
8. Orange
I think this would be a perfect candidate for a discharge underbase:
1. Straight Discharge Base
2. Short Flash
3. Light Blue
4. Dark Blue
5. Orange
6. Flash
7.
8. Highlight White
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I think this would be a perfect candidate for a discharge underbase:
1. Straight Discharge Base
2. Short Flash
3. Light Blue
4. Dark Blue
5. Orange
6. Flash
7.
8. Highlight White
Al's got it here too, however I don't think I would run the second flash after the orange. Proper tension of course.
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Most here answered similar how I suspected. So how did we print it?
Done with 2 rotations flashing between each color using 2 different flashes. We had no puller today anyway and it was a Sunday, but over all. I'd like to get into more wet on wet printing, we simply don't do a lot of it.
It is to the point we are doing a few jobs a week that end up revolver for one reason or another varying from not being used to wet on wet, poor planning, or various other reasons. For me it's time to correct that because it's eating up a lot of time when we have to do that. So it's learn wet on wet. Or buy a press with more colors.
So do I need newmans to really be serious about wet on wet?
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No you don't, but it will help. We print all the time wet on wet, you will need statics with good tension though. the stuff that comes out of your shop is top notch. Seriously, the only thing you will gain with newmans is better production. I don't really see your prints improving that much, there isn't much room to move up.
The biggest thing with wet on wet is mesh selection. also using the perfect amount of pressure on all heads. that is critical. a print can go from great to really bad if you crank the pressure down on a wet on wet overprint.
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Amateur question - where is the 2nd blue in this print?
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it's not an amateur question, i was wondering the same thing.
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Inside the shark.
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Some good suggestions by many and like Dan said it's hard to know exactly without seeing the original art but since you seem to have a handle on that it's a non issue just looking at the print. With that said here's my suggestions which I don't believe has been mentioned. With as much sim process and nice blend work we do in our shop, we still struggle with "must be super opaque, solid color designs" so I feel your pain on this. I recently purchased 150 used newman's and an L2 stretching table that we are currently using to get these into production. The final verdict of static frames vs newmans is still out since we have not work hardened many yet or ran many jobs with a full set of newmans but I will tell you I'm noticing a pretty big difference(very good) in all production stages. The newman's reclaim much nicer, setup quicker on press(less mesh pull), less squeegee pressure needed, etc etc etc. The benefits I'm seeing so far with nice tensioned newmans vs our statics are really beneficial. We printed a 10 color spot color job on all different color shirts last week in which I printed the base, flash, and all colors WOW after that. Before newmans and doing a halftone underbase(I feel it's really important so the color has some shirt to adhere to) we would never be able to pull that off. All the colors were bright primary colors so having pickup issues would create a major problem. Proper inks, tension, underbase, and underbase flash time are probably the major things I believe which can make or break a solid spot color print on dark shirts.
I'm a big supporter of whenever I have 2 blues that blend together to put a flash between them. Blues always seem to look muted when printed wow in my opinion, so we always try to flash between blues if the job has 2. Here's how I'd setup that print..... BTW one of our presses is an 8 color diamondback xl which I would be confident printing this on not revolving.
1. Base White - 230 mesh
2. Flash
3. Light Blue - 230 mesh - I'd setup this station with a slow flood stroke, fast and hard print stroke to crush the base into the shirt. If it's a large qty run setup a fan to blow on the shirt.
4. Orange - 230 mesh
5. Flash
6. Cool Station
7. Dark Blue - 230 or 305 mesh
8. Highlight White - 230 mesh
That's how we would setup the job initially to see how it looked and just keep an eye on flash times......... Once we get all these newmans stretched I will let you guys know what my opinion is then. We are getting the new lawson express jet cts direct to screen system within the next two weeks so my goal is to have all our newmans ready for that new addition.
Badass print/design by the way, nice work again!
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Amateur question - where is the 2nd blue in this print?
The flash blew out the image. Light blue is th majority of the design. Teeth and eyes are the only white ink showing.
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No you don't, but it will help. We print all the time wet on wet, you will need statics with good tension though. the stuff that comes out of your shop is top notch. Seriously, the only thing you will gain with newmans is better production. I don't really see your prints improving that much, there isn't much room to move up.
The biggest thing with wet on wet is mesh selection. also using the perfect amount of pressure on all heads. that is critical. a print can go from great to really bad if you crank the pressure down on a wet on wet overprint.
Thanks for the nice comments. I know we can learn wet on wet it's just a matter of doing it. We have done some of it but not massive amounts. So we lack confidence there.
Newmans is something I behave wanted to do for awhile anyway. So I am considering that any way you shake it. If it improves set up or makes anything at all easier then it's almost a no brainer for me. Like I said I am at a fork in the road. Stop using revolver one way or another. So more wet on wet or bigger press. One obviously costs more than the other.
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yeah, you should be able to print wet on wet on most designs. you are killing your production with revolver. we have a 6 color press and maybe once a week we have to run things around twice.
i see the light blue now, it took a bit.
what meshes are you using for this?
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it's not an amateur question, i was wondering the same thing.
Me too, looks like the shirt to me. I have White underbase, flash, cool, blue, orange, flash, cool, highlight white as a 4 color, if I had the the dark blue, it would be printed 1st, in front of the underbase white... A very straight ahead job I think, done thousands like it over the years.
Steve
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yeah, you should be able to print wet on wet on most designs. you are killing your production with revolver. we have a 6 color press and maybe once a week we have to run things around twice.
i see the light blue now, it took a bit.
what meshes are you using for this?
I agree, Shelly isn't comfy with it and I need to get her to the point where we only using revolver when its impossible to print otherwise or the job is super small and doesn't make sense to burn 2 whites or something. But this job Sunday was 144pcs. Took way longer than it should have and I want to move away from that because we could have avoided it.
Underbase was 196. I think top colors where 158's. It wasn't ideal but we had a huge week and where out of screens for Sunday's Job.
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yeah, your mesh selection is jacked on that. I would have done what homer and others said, 230's and 305 top or 230's all the way around.
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it's not an amateur question, i was wondering the same thing.
Me too, looks like the shirt to me. I have White underbase, flash, cool, blue, orange, flash, cool, highlight white as a 4 color, if I had the the dark blue, it would be printed 1st, in front of the underbase white... A very straight ahead job I think, done thousands like it over the years.
Steve
The only white on the shirt is the Teeth and the Sharks eyes. Everything else you think is white was light blue. The flash on the pic blew it out. There are 2 blues.
Attached is the pre-press artwork.
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yeah, your mesh selection is jacked on that. I would have done what homer and others said, 230's and 305 top or 230's all the way around.
Yes I agree, as I said, not normal. We use a lot of 230's. Come down to this job and we were simply out of screens and it was a Sunday lol.
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depending on the inks you used and I was really pressed for time and screens - I would possibly entertain the thought of using the light blue as a base
or
if you discharged it, I would ditch the HW, but not a clear discharge base, maybe a 50/50 mix to achieve some white in there. fifty ways to run it and I bet all would look great.
This brings up a thought I had a long time ago. What if we had Dan the Sep man come up with a design. we as printers go ahead with our method of sep'n (in house, send out, whatever) print and trade each other our finished product along with all the details. I bet we could all learn a few new tricks...
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depending on the inks you used and I was really pressed for time and screens - I would possibly entertain the thought of using the light blue as a base
or
if you discharged it, I would ditch the HW, but not a clear discharge base, maybe a 50/50 mix to achieve some white in there. fifty ways to run it and I bet all would look great.
This brings up a thought I had a long time ago. What if we had Dan the Sep man come up with a design. we as printers go ahead with our method of sep'n (in house, send out, whatever) print and trade each other our finished product along with all the details. I bet we could all learn a few new tricks...
Still haven't tried discharge. Really want to.
Over all I am clearly admitting we didn't print this the most ideal. What I want to help Shelly see or get comfy with is that we can do more wet and wet.... In other words my main concern here on this one was the extra time spent on a Sunday of all days. We gotta get away from using revolver unless its just impossible.
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For that little area of white especially surrounded by other colors you could have possibly ditched the hi lite white altogether, if needed double stroke the white.
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especially on a distressed print
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Ya may have been able to ditch it.
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it's not an amateur question, i was wondering the same thing.
Me too, looks like the shirt to me. I have White underbase, flash, cool, blue, orange, flash, cool, highlight white as a 4 color, if I had the the dark blue, it would be printed 1st, in front of the underbase white... A very straight ahead job I think, done thousands like it over the years.
Steve
The only white on the shirt is the Teeth and the Sharks eyes. Everything else you think is white was light blue. The flash on the pic blew it out. There are 2 blues.
Attached is the pre-press artwork.
Well then, white under, flash, cool, dk. blue, lt. blue, orange, flash, highlight white. Still pretty straight ahead.
Steve
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it's not an amateur question, i was wondering the same thing.
Me too, looks like the shirt to me. I have White underbase, flash, cool, blue, orange, flash, cool, highlight white as a 4 color, if I had the the dark blue, it would be printed 1st, in front of the underbase white... A very straight ahead job I think, done thousands like it over the years.
Steve
The only white on the shirt is the Teeth and the Sharks eyes. Everything else you think is white was light blue. The flash on the pic blew it out. There are 2 blues.
Attached is the pre-press artwork.
Well then, white under, flash, cool, dk. blue, lt. blue, orange, flash, highlight white. Still pretty straight ahead.
Steve
Ya thats how I wanted to run it but Shelly wasn't comfy with wet on wet. I need to just force it to be that way. Haha.
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This brings up a thought I had a long time ago. What if we had Dan the Sep man come up with a design. we as printers go ahead with our method of sep'n (in house, send out, whatever) print and trade each other our finished product along with all the details. I bet we could all learn a few new tricks...
We talked about doing this at one point and drifted away from it. Although, I think when we talked about it, we were going to use just my own seps and compare how people approach printing it. If we let everyone sep it how they might themselves, it would not be any real comparison other than to say, look how different we can get.
It would be a good thing to compare to (to have the same art file and same set of seps). I bet you'd get the same look of print quality with three different approaches. You'd also get a few extreme differences.
We could use one of my stock designs. I'd hate to take the time to do a special design and separate it just for the test comparison.
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Ya thats how I wanted to run it but Shelly wasn't comfy with wet on wet. I need to just force it to be that way. Haha.
W.o.w. takes a bit of a learning curve. Flashing after every colour makes it easy, but as you know it's a production killer on bigger runs. I think getting comfy with w.o.w. is the toughest part of going from manual to auto. I sure suggest having at least 2 flash cure stations for anyone buying an auto, It may not be needed if you do a lot of sim process and index colour/half tone printing, but for bread and butter multi color spot printing it's a great help.
The one thing I noticed from almost all the answers was how just about everybody was flashing right after the orange. Some colours just react better to having 2-3 other screens step on them w.o.w. than others.
ps: I thought you were printing a dark navy blue and the shark belly/brow and design background were all white. I'd change my answer in light of them being light blue.
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Ya thats how I wanted to run it but Shelly wasn't comfy with wet on wet. I need to just force it to be that way. Haha.
W.o.w. takes a bit of a learning curve. Flashing after every colour makes it easy, but as you know it's a production killer on bigger runs. I think getting comfy with w.o.w. is the toughest part of going from manual to auto. I sure suggest having at least 2 flash cure stations for anyone buying an auto, It may not be needed if you do a lot of sim process and index colour/half tone printing, but for bread and butter multi color spot printing it's a great help.
The one thing I noticed from almost all the answers was how just about everybody was flashing right after the orange. Some colours just react better to having 2-3 other screens step on them w.o.w. than others.
ps: I thought you were printing a dark navy blue and the shark belly/brow and design background were all white. I'd change my answer in light of them being light blue.
We have 2 flashes, one M&R Cayenne 18x22 and a Vastex 18x24. Actually we even have a 3rd that is a Vastex 16x18 but it has trouble keeping up so we don't often use it.
I simply need to force wet on wet printing, even if it kills us in for now it will be for the best in the end. It is killing production at times now.
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As a side note, Target Graphics, (the award winning 4 color process on black garments guy) flashes in between each color. I think he has a very large press with a flash at every 3rd stations. He is not allowing his inks to mix. They print side by side and over top...but your eye needs to do the blending. Thats why he shoots for such a fine halftone dot. He's also the guy who touts printing 85 and 100 line screen, but of the dots, they are always hard, sharp, clean and well defined dots.
It's a trade off. While he has very bright cmyk images with very clean images on darks, they do have hand. That is the negative of flashing between colors. Rubber. Even tho he's using very high mesh on each screen, he's still compounding that. Plastic dots over plastic dots eventually build a plastic hand feel. I believe he is strictly ASI and contract. So his SMYK on darks take as long as someone's 10 color on lights I'd think.
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Which is why true discharge sim process WOW works so well. I'll have something to show in the next couple of weeks which is a sim process photographic design 10 colors wow no flash no UB. I printed this an the Caribbean a few ys ago and just now was able to retrieve the files.
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Just gotta say THANKS to everyone chiming in on this topic. I'm a rookie when it comes to using an Auto. Today will be my second day. Also, rookie in printing WOW. I learn so much from you all here! Thanks!
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if you live through it, tomorrow will be your third. Be patient, if we're doing it, it's because it can be done, and you can do it too.
Steve
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BTW Sorry for baiting you all into answering how I knew you would. LOL. I had to give you a fair question to answer it this way so I could show Shelly that wet on wet is the way to go. I gotta make it happen, I want to buy a larger press as well but we could get by a little while with what we have. But I expect in the next 12 months one way or another we will be doing a CH3. I would rather wait on that than say get a 12 color EXG right now which is in the budget easily. But I am trying to focus on winter that is coming. I know I am going to need more embroidery machines soon.
Joys of 53% growth....LOL.
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wouldn't it have just been easier to print it wet on wet on the press to show her? Now you drag a bunch of guys in on how to do things this way, while you are saying "Shelly wants to do it her way and i want to prove her wrong in front of everybody." That's a recipe for healthy relationship. ;)
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Just punch her in the mouth and tell her how it is!
(http://www.socialnatural.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Caveman-Drags-Woman-Social-Natural.jpg)
You got a beard don't you Brandt? ;)
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Just punch her in the mouth and tell her how it is!
You got a beard don't you Brandt? ;)
Damn, that is one way of solving the problem! But do you have to have a beard to beat on your old lady?
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usually just a goatee. people with goatees are one of 3 things...assholes, child molesters or major league baseball players
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usually just a goatee. people with goatees are one of 3 things...assholes, child molesters or major league baseball players
Well I am not a child molester and for sure not a major league baseball player otherwise I wouldnt be here so.... hmmm
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well that only leaves 1. ;)
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Hmmm my wife says that ALOT about me....
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wouldn't it have just been easier to print it wet on wet on the press to show her? Now you drag a bunch of guys in on how to do things this way, while you are saying "Shelly wants to do it her way and i want to prove her wrong in front of everybody." That's a recipe for healthy relationship. ;)
She welcomed me to post it. LOL I think she knows it should be this way as well. Its just a matter of doing it.
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usually just a goatee. people with goatees are one of 3 things...assholes, child molesters or major league baseball players
Maybe down in Atlanta Brad but up here goatees are common and yes I have one!
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Maybe down in Atlanta Brad but up here goatees are common and yes I have one! (http://Maybe down in Atlanta Brad but up here goatees are common and yes I have one!)
POINT PROVEN!!! ;D Just kidding.
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BWHAHA... you did walk right into that. ;)
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THats ok Brad comes from the land of dueling banjos and we all know what goes on in the woods when no one is watching.
SSSSSSSSSSSQQQQQQQQEEEEEAL!
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there is such a bad joke I could make with how this whole thread went, but I would like to stay a member.
on a side note, i've been to where deliverance was filmed...it's also the same place Walenda walked over the gorge.
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there is such a bad joke I could make with how this whole thread went, but I would like to stay a member.
on a side note, i've been to where deliverance was filmed...it's also the same place Walenda walked over the gorge.
Walenda's a douche. he walked the falls a few months ago, such a tool.
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no, this was the dead one...the dad. does the son have a goatee?
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no, this was the dead one...the dad. does the son have a goatee?
The one that died walking between two buildings and caught on camera?
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Yeah, I think it was back in the 80's maybe. Let me wiki this.
Yup, that one, he was 73 when he died. That might be a little old to be out tightrope walking.
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Goatee's are like the modern version of a mullet. The only one that thinks he looks good is the guy that has it........ ;)
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I would have done:
1. wb
2. flash
3. cool
4. dark blue
5. orange
6. flash
7. light blue
8. hl white
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THats ok Brad comes from the land of dueling banjos and we all know what goes on in the woods when no one is watching.
SSSSSSSSSSSQQQQQQQQEEEEEAL!
Talk about a movie you only have to see once...
Steve
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Ya sho gotta purty mouf!
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Burton Milo Reynolds Jr, what a badass!!!