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screen printing => Screen Making => Topic started by: alan802 on August 30, 2012, 10:50:16 PM
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I was putting together a frame with 205 newman roller mesh today and got it up to I think the highest tension I've ever successfully got on a production screen. I think I've messed around and hit 70 newtons one time but the mesh blew up within a few seconds of me hitting the high mark. I'm going to coat this screen with a super thick stencil on one end, normal on the other and play with a few new squeegees I got today, maybe something amazing will happen...maybe not. It's been a while since I've stretched anything but S threads so I made the most out of it while I had the chance. Hopefully it will survive through the night so I can cost it in the morning.
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr211/alan802/SRI%20Pics/A18161D8-54EC-431F-972A-03DB4A22EA81.jpg)
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Why stop there Alan, there was still more numbers on the dial. ;)
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"they" say 62 newtons is maximum for that 205 so I figured 65 was plenty.
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jeeeezzeeee that is tight. Did you hear any noise while stretching cuz those thread are screaming
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Any updates did the ultra high tension provide noticeable difference in print quality? Do you notable changes say over 40nm
Sent from samsung gem(the worst smart phone ever)
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We were working on some screens the other day and were hitting 60 newtons on our white 110's, they print like a DREAM too. Great opacity, one stroke, on darks.
We've been bringing our yellow mesh 255's up around 42 and 45 and I was nervous then.. I'd have a break down at 65 alan!!
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It'll hold. The popped screen was probably from not enough corner softening. You need to index the roller down a lot further in toward the frame so they have enough travel and also soften further. You know this though. I popped a bunch when I first tried hi-ten and folks at M&R boards helped me out with those two tips. Once I dialed it in, I marked the corner softening distance down on a clear ruler for reference and checked each corner every time I built a screen.
The only thing I didn't like about the 65 zone was the need to retension more frequently. 45 is easier for maintenance.
I think Evo best described these screens once as two thin sheets of glass with a layer of nitro gylcerin in the middle. Makes you bring out those plastic mesh protectors.
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It'll hold. The popped screen was probably from not enough corner softening. You need to index the roller down a lot further in toward the frame so they have enough travel and also soften further. You know this though. I popped a bunch when I first tried hi-ten and folks at M&R boards helped me out with those two tips. Once I dialed it in, I marked the corner softening distance down on a clear ruler for reference and checked each corner every time I built a screen.
The only thing I didn't like about the 65 zone was the need to retension more frequently. 45 is easier for maintenance.
I think Evo best described these screens once as two thin sheets of glass with a layer of nitro gylcerin in the middle. Makes you bring out those plastic mesh protectors.
but noticeable difference from a 40 nice
Sent from samsung gem(the worst smart phone ever)
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I'll comment on this later tonight or this weekend, but that particular screen did exactly what I was hoping. We were printing at 25"/sec which is extremely fast for that mesh count. I think the only drawback of tensions this high is the press calibration. To take advantage of the tension, off contact has to be low low low, and if you have a pallet out of calibration just slightly it will cause problems. 40 newtons is still a very high tension level for most shops, if all our screens were 40, I'd be happy as hell.
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if all our screens were 40, I'd be happy as hell.
An all Newman Roller Mesh setup will get you there pretty easily. When I used the Roller Mesh our set was all up there, tpi from 110N-300N. Easy maintenance as far as retensioning. The other mesh, Murakami std thread, went there in tension but did not hold it as well as Roller Mesh did and the thread diameter was almost identical. You do get something for the exorbitant cost of that mesh.
And yeah, it's an overall commitment. Not for everybody but if it was for anyone Alan, it might be you. Carefully paralleling the press (and a machine that can stay where you put it) has to be regular scheduled maintenance or it's nothing but a frustration. I think you and that RPM could take full advantage of this. If you do go for it, you'll find you can use those crazy constant force squeegees with insane results.
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do you really see a differance in these higher tensions? we have been using rollers here and there for the past year, and I have to admit at first we were like, holy sh!t, these are sweet. But as we learned more and more about squeegies, pressure, seps and mesh selection - I no longer use the rollers, they just do not fit in our model. too time consuming for a small shop like mine. not to turn this into a roller debat but honestly, does this super high tension really make a better print?
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do you really see a differance in these higher tensions? we have been using rollers here and there for the past year, and I have to admit at first we were like, holy sh!t, these are sweet. But as we learned more and more about squeegies, pressure, seps and mesh selection - I no longer use the rollers, they just do not fit in our model. too time consuming for a small shop like mine. not to turn this into a roller debat but honestly, does this super high tension really make a better print?
Often wondered this as well. You often get that reaction out of people when they first go to them. But I can't tell you how many people talk about it on these boards then a picture is posted later of some thing on their press or something and there they are, statics on the press being used. If they were the end all be all why would that be happening. I would think if in fact night and day they would phase out statics all the way.
I am at the point where we are going to do be moving to either rollers or a bigger press. Probably sooner than later. Probably both before its over with but I wonder should I do rollers first or bigger press first? We are doing so many jobs now that are 6-7 colors. I need more heads. Period. In fact its quickly becoming the more colors I will put on it the more they will pay for and seem happy to with the detailed art. But at the same time I could probably learn discharge and ditch flashing and end up picking up a head or two from not using a flash/cool down. Could band aid it for awhile. What to do..
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I think of it as controlling (removing) variables. Variables that can compound other issues or mitigate them.
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do you really see a differance in these higher tensions? we have been using rollers here and there for the past year, and I have to admit at first we were like, holy sh!t, these are sweet. But as we learned more and more about squeegies, pressure, seps and mesh selection - I no longer use the rollers, they just do not fit in our model. too time consuming for a small shop like mine. not to turn this into a roller debat but honestly, does this super high tension really make a better print?
Often wondered this as well. You often get that reaction out of people when they first go to them. But I can't tell you how many people talk about it on these boards then a picture is posted later of some thing on their press or something and there they are, statics on the press being used. If they were the end all be all why would that be happening. I would think if in fact night and day they would phase out statics all the way.
I am at the point where we are going to do be moving to either rollers or a bigger press. Probably sooner than later. Probably both before its over with but I wonder should I do rollers first or bigger press first? We are doing so many jobs now that are 6-7 colors. I need more heads. Period. In fact its quickly becoming the more colors I will put on it the more they will pay for and seem happy to with the detailed art. But at the same time I could probably learn discharge and ditch flashing and end up picking up a head or two from not using a flash/cool down. Could band aid it for awhile. What to do..
Brandt, we're strictly roller frames here, no statics. I do believe that prints come out better from having rollers (as long as your tensions and what not are correct), but I believe the biggest benefit to rollers/high tension is the consistent increase in speed, less ink being used to achieve the coverage needed, and great one hit whites. I know you know all of this already, just throwing in my 2 cents here... It's not only about print quality, but about more production in less time.
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The last sentence in Tance's post is the main benefit. When I say EVERYTHING runs smoother it really is every part of the process. We have maybe 10 statics still in production now and we had as many as 150 at one time. I measured their tension and only kept the ones with 18-22 newtons which weeded out all but about 20-25. We still run some single color jobs with statics and we have a few higher mesh count statics that are high enough tension to get the benefits. We like our shurloc EZ frames and they give you that middle ground between the ultimate newman roller frame and statics. They don't give you the high tension levels that you get with newmans but they work harden in a very acceptable range of upper 20's to high 30's in some mesh counts. There is no maintenance with the EZ frames which is a plus, but if you're wanting ultimate control of the variable then you'll be lacking.
I think many of us have tried to figure out where that line of diminishing returns when it comes to tension levels. I've gone back and forth with this and what I've said or thought in the past might be different from where I'm at now with all the work I've done in trying to achieve "one hit" prints. I'm thinking that 40-50 newtons is where you'll find that getting your mesh to that tension is going to be harder than the results or the benifits you get. I was thinking that the 35 newton range was the sweet spot since getting most mesh counts there and keeping them there was fairly easy. But then there are times that I've coated a 102 newman roller mesh with a 70 micron stencil and printed a one hit khaki ink on military green shirt and printed at 25"/sec that make me think that 55 newtons is well worth it. Considering that with a 35 newton screen we have to print, flash, print that same job. Doing that a few times a week could really add up and benefit production and ink consumption.
This subject is one of my favorites.
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...I managed a shop for ten years that was strictly rollerframes, and now that I have my own shop, I dont want them. I just didnt care for the maitenance vs return on them. That high tension was a great benefit, but with it came higher mesh failure, of course.
...And remeshing these is not that easy either. We used roller panels AND had a roller table, so inserting new mesh and tensioning was easy....but getting blown mesh out and prepping the frame for new mesh can be a real time-consumer. First, removing the protective tape off the frames is a hassle, then geting the locking strips out cleanly amost never happened. Then, clean the frame, check and usually remove burrs from the channels. Finally you get to remesh the frame, and reapply the protective tape. There was just a lot of little hidden time/cost.
...That being said, there are time when I think it would be nice to have a few around, with maybe some 125 mesh cranked WAY high for those kickass underbases.
...I will start a new thread on my new thought on statics and tensions, I dont want to derail Alans thread here. Gimme a few.....
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I certainly have no problem discussing anything here MrTees. You don't have to start a new thread if you don't want to. We can do it all here. I like hearing why others who have used both types say why they prefer one or the other. Guys who have very limited use of one or the other and not both can chime in too but without extensive knowledge of both low and high tension you can't really give much of a comparison, just your own personal experience in using one or the other.
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..Thanks Alan, but I just started another one. I dont want Andy the Thread-Nazi on my ass..... ;D
...check it out and let me know what you think. I also need to send you a PM when I get some real time, I have a Tri-Loc idea you might be interested in.
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do you really see a differance in these higher tensions? we have been using rollers here and there for the past year, and I have to admit at first we were like, holy sh!t, these are sweet. But as we learned more and more about squeegies, pressure, seps and mesh selection - I no longer use the rollers, they just do not fit in our model. too time consuming for a small shop like mine. not to turn this into a roller debat but honestly, does this super high tension really make a better print?
Often wondered this as well. You often get that reaction out of people when they first go to them. But I can't tell you how many people talk about it on these boards then a picture is posted later of some thing on their press or something and there they are, statics on the press being used. If they were the end all be all why would that be happening. I would think if in fact night and day they would phase out statics all the way.
I am at the point where we are going to do be moving to either rollers or a bigger press. Probably sooner than later. Probably both before its over with but I wonder should I do rollers first or bigger press first? We are doing so many jobs now that are 6-7 colors. I need more heads. Period. In fact its quickly becoming the more colors I will put on it the more they will pay for and seem happy to with the detailed art. But at the same time I could probably learn discharge and ditch flashing and end up picking up a head or two from not using a flash/cool down. Could band aid it for awhile. What to do..
Brandt, we're strictly roller frames here, no statics. I do believe that prints come out better from having rollers (as long as your tensions and what not are correct), but I believe the biggest benefit to rollers/high tension is the consistent increase in speed, less ink being used to achieve the coverage needed, and great one hit whites. I know you know all of this already, just throwing in my 2 cents here... It's not only about print quality, but about more production in less time.
Faster printing would certainly be a nice side effect of course. I got a lot to think about.
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Something has been bugging me about this for some time, wouldn't stretching mesh to really high tension reduce the TPI considerably?
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but honestly, does this super high tension really make a better print?
Honestly, no. This has been addressed previously, but I just wanted to reinforce it. High tension does NOT result in a better print than static screens. No more than an automatic press results in a better print than a manual.
What high tension does, much like an auto vs. manual, is offer a more consistent print and increases speed in some areas, such as eliminating the need for multiple print stroke or in some cases, eliminating the need for p/f/p. WOW printing is also often easier, crisper, and faster with high tension screens.
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We're all roller frames and roller mesh at 45n.
We have better registration, ink coverage, more speed and just higher quality prints over the statics. Would it be easier just to order statics? Sure would! Is it worth it? Nope. Not for us.
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I do see a better quality print on high tension screens, especially with white prints on darks. With a 6 color on white shirts, no difference with the human eye. 6 color sim process on black, I'd bet there would be a noticeable difference in print quality. You'll never know until you print the job side by side with both screens but I know what our prints looked like 4 years ago versus now, high tension played a role in that change.
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for us - and I'm probably alone in this boat- we run rollers and panelframes, no glued statics. we ran a job on rollers about 3 months ago, just ran it again this past week on panels with new seps and different squeegies and the prints looked way better. So for me, I believe the tension is just a part of the puzzle. It helps make a great print, faster setup (not sold on that yet), more consistant images, however, I think this can also be achieved with other screen systems. As long as you have a system in place. We are going to track our panels and replace them more often. We need to find that sweet spot for tension, whatever it is, and maintain that. I get faster set ups with panel frames because my reg devices are geared towards that system. I do see what happens with low tension screens, but what is the magic number for optimal tension? I think that will change with every shop.
I couldn't print a screen at these 50+ newtons, my press couldn't handle that tight calibration and off contact.
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do you really see a differance in these higher tensions? we have been using rollers here and there for the past year, and I have to admit at first we were like, holy sh!t, these are sweet. But as we learned more and more about squeegies, pressure, seps and mesh selection - I no longer use the rollers, they just do not fit in our model. too time consuming for a small shop like mine. not to turn this into a roller debat but honestly, does this super high tension really make a better print?
Often wondered this as well. You often get that reaction out of people when they first go to them. But I can't tell you how many people talk about it on these boards then a picture is posted later of some thing on their press or something and there they are, statics on the press being used. If they were the end all be all why would that be happening. I would think if in fact night and day they would phase out statics all the way.
I am at the point where we are going to do be moving to either rollers or a bigger press. Probably sooner than later. Probably both before its over with but I wonder should I do rollers first or bigger press first? We are doing so many jobs now that are 6-7 colors. I need more heads. Period. In fact its quickly becoming the more colors I will put on it the more they will pay for and seem happy to with the detailed art. But at the same time I could probably learn discharge and ditch flashing and end up picking up a head or two from not using a flash/cool down. Could band aid it for awhile. What to do..
Brandt, we're strictly roller frames here, no statics. I do believe that prints come out better from having rollers (as long as your tensions and what not are correct), but I believe the biggest benefit to rollers/high tension is the consistent increase in speed, less ink being used to achieve the coverage needed, and great one hit whites. I know you know all of this already, just throwing in my 2 cents here... It's not only about print quality, but about more production in less time.
Faster printing would certainly be a nice side effect of course. I got a lot to think about.
We were like you as far as a press goes. We had a 8 color and found we didnt have enough heads We just brought in a 12 color with another quartz flash (all M&R) and could not be happier. We strictly use roller frames.(We have the stretching table and bolts of mesh)
Once you have a system down it doesnt take long to mesh frames and get ready for press. I would get the frames first then the press. You have a nice press now and would benifit from roller frames. Keep a eye out for used ones, thats how I have purchased many of ours. We found many M3's in great condition for a fraction of new.
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do you really see a differance in these higher tensions? we have been using rollers here and there for the past year, and I have to admit at first we were like, holy sh!t, these are sweet. But as we learned more and more about squeegies, pressure, seps and mesh selection - I no longer use the rollers, they just do not fit in our model. too time consuming for a small shop like mine. not to turn this into a roller debat but honestly, does this super high tension really make a better print?
Often wondered this as well. You often get that reaction out of people when they first go to them. But I can't tell you how many people talk about it on these boards then a picture is posted later of some thing on their press or something and there they are, statics on the press being used. If they were the end all be all why would that be happening. I would think if in fact night and day they would phase out statics all the way.
I am at the point where we are going to do be moving to either rollers or a bigger press. Probably sooner than later. Probably both before its over with but I wonder should I do rollers first or bigger press first? We are doing so many jobs now that are 6-7 colors. I need more heads. Period. In fact its quickly becoming the more colors I will put on it the more they will pay for and seem happy to with the detailed art. But at the same time I could probably learn discharge and ditch flashing and end up picking up a head or two from not using a flash/cool down. Could band aid it for awhile. What to do..
Brandt, we're strictly roller frames here, no statics. I do believe that prints come out better from having rollers (as long as your tensions and what not are correct), but I believe the biggest benefit to rollers/high tension is the consistent increase in speed, less ink being used to achieve the coverage needed, and great one hit whites. I know you know all of this already, just throwing in my 2 cents here... It's not only about print quality, but about more production in less time.
Faster printing would certainly be a nice side effect of course. I got a lot to think about.
We were like you as far as a press goes. We had a 8 color and found we didnt have enough heads We just brought in a 12 color with another quartz flash (all M&R) and could not be happier. We strictly use roller frames.(We have the stretching table and bolts of mesh)
Once you have a system down it doesnt take long to mesh frames and get ready for press. I would get the frames first then the press. You have a nice press now and would benifit from roller frames. Keep a eye out for used ones, thats how I have purchased many of ours. We found many M3's in great condition for a fraction of new.
I am thinking 14 or 16 color when we do it next. I don't wanna run out of heads again for awhile. I will also add probably 2 more flashes as well when I do it.
For now I have to decide when to do that and when to get rollers. Then the other fun question is what size rollers. I would love to move all to 25x36's. We do a good bit of oversized printing. Sucks having 2 sizes of screens in the shop.
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You'd be surprised how many shops swear by roller frames yet don't take the time to regularly test and record tension; and re-tension as necessary. Kind of misses the point. BTW I have both statics and re-tens. Haven't noticed any advantage to printing DC on tight frames. And I have a stretching system upstairs that allows me to mesh up (2) 23x 31 frames at a clip
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I would think that there would be less benefit with higher tension when printing discharge. You don't need to shear the ink, you drive it through the stencil and into the shirt so off contact, squeegee pressure, fill pressure, etc doesn't need to be as precise as trying to print with the least amount of pressure and as fast as possible to get the ink to sit on top of the shirt. Don't you think that is the case Tony? When we print discharge it's easier because we don't have to be on top of all the variables. I just move the print head pressure regulator up to 45 and I don't really look at off contact as long as there is at least a tiny bit and I just make sure the ink clears the screen and gets into the shirt fibers and we're done.
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I have been using the triloc for quite a while now and use only statics and some panel frames, all I can say is 90% of jobs triloced are nuts on no adjustment ever needed, the few times its of its easy to see its because the frame has a little wobble in it, so what I am saying is I cant see how having rollers would ever increase our set up in any way. In fact unless you are assuring your rollers are completely flat every single frame you might have a harder time with rollers and a tri-loc. There is a shop ion town I visited that used to use rollers, everyone one of them was racked horribly, and I could bet there is hundreds of other users out there that have the same issue.
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Most statics are not flat. The welding causes warpage no matter how good the jig is.
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Anyone that chooses to use racked rollers must not care too terribly much about anything. That's so easily fixed.
Mike, our setups increased due to less off contact needed and our statics that were around 15 newtons would shift bad with squeegee direction causing prints to be out of reg vertically. At the time we were using statics predominantly, we weren't using a regi system, just manually registering jobs. Depending on how loose the screen was the more adjustments we'd have to make with the screen. We would cheat during setups and lock the screen in place a few points higher knowing that the screen would shift downward with the squeegee. I have some illustrations on how the mesh reacts with differing off contact heights, I just need to figure out how to get them from keynote on the ipad to my photobucket account.
When using statics, we would give the art a little more "play", with traps/chokes and couldn't get away with butt registration. We overlapped most every color. I'm not saying all shops have to do this but I was getting tired of having to do 12 test prints on a 6 color butt regi job. That was normal during the static days, now if we have to do 3 test prints on a 6 color then I'm pissed. As with almost every variable, things are different from shop to shop, but I'm not embellishing anything when I say that so many problems and issues simply disappeared when we started using higher tension screens. I know that not everyone will see the results we got, some might even get better results, some could possibly not even be noticeable. If a shop is having a bunch of little issues that pop up on multicolored jobs then I'd say that they would be a great candidate for using higher tension. If a shop is seemingly running smoothly and things are great with low tension statics, then it would be very hard to convince them they need to do anything differently.
My best advice would be to try high tension if you are double stroking anything lower than a 230 mesh, not able to print wet on wet for at least 2 screens between flashes, not getting your top colors to pop with a single stroked underbase, if you cannot get an opaque white print on a black shirt by one stroke, flash, one stroke, want to achieve "one hit" prints. If it's taking you more than a few minutes per color to set up a job or having to do more than 3-4 test prints for every multi-colored job then you might be a candidate for high tension. I'm sure I'm forgetting some pretty obvious issues that can be eliminated by high tension but that's a good place to start.