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screen printing => Waterbase and Discharge => Topic started by: Screened Gear on September 18, 2012, 03:24:50 PM
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Is it possible? I have a very detailed design that I want to do with discharge. Or should I use a 230.
Its for 100 black Nextlevel 100% cotton shirts.
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Yes here's one from a few months back
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Just CCI white and activator? Did you thin it out with water? I have 6 designs that I have to do that are really detailed if its easier I could put them on 230 but I don't want to use a lower LPI if I don't have to. I was thinking about doing a 45 to 50 LPI. (I am afraid to go higher)
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Yes that is one screen two passes. Maybe about 5%water added. Actually it is 60% base or binder and 40% white for softer hand and more subtle look. Sorry just remembered.
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Ok so will 100 white print just as well in a 305 screen with 2 passes. I can (clear) base it down some if you think it will print better that way. I know nothing when it comes to discharge. I just don't want to mess up a bunch of shirts this job is 5 designs 100 shirts each and they need them in 2 days. ($$$).
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Thin the D-White with water for sure. You need not only the discharge itself but enough of the white pigment to penetrate those shirts, if the base gets through but the white pig is floating up top on the fabric they won't wash well.
Hopefully you sourced something with a nice, tight weave on the face for this. EDIT: I see you have next level, didn't someone say they won't discharge? Swab test one asap. A poorly discharging shirt would fubar a job like this I think.
As far as adding D-Base (clear), that's going to depend on the art and how "white" it needs to be but it will absolutely make the ink easier to pass through yer 305 mesh.
We've had great results up to 225 w. 55lpi and D-White, straight up with probably about as much water as activator by weight, so 6%ish, to thin. I like to use the warm water from a teakettle to dissolve the activator and then stir that mixture in at high speed, activating and thinning all at once.
Thin too much and your opacity drops as does the print quality with the runny ink but if the white pigment is flusterclucking in the mesh openings then it may actually increase opacity. Got to find that sweet spot for the job.
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good info. Now what LPI? whats the limitations on LPI with waterbase? is there any or is ti just like plastisol.
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Yes that is one screen two passes. Maybe about 5%water added. Actually it is 60% base or binder and 40% white for softer hand and more subtle look. Sorry just remembered.
Printing over the collars like these show, did you use spongy plattens? I've never felt that printing intricate art on my spongy shirtboard covers would yield much in the way of consistency of halftones. I use doubled neoprene wetsuit material, much like a mousepad. Results are mediocre, except with solid blocks of spot color. ESPECIALLY mediocre when using a double hit.
Stan
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Thin the D-White with water for sure. You need not only the discharge itself but enough of the white pigment to penetrate those shirts, if the base gets through but the white pig is floating up top on the fabric they won't wash well.
Hopefully you sourced something with a nice, tight weave on the face for this. EDIT: I see you have next level, didn't someone say they won't discharge? Swab test one asap. A poorly discharging shirt would fubar a job like this I think.
As far as adding D-Base (clear), that's going to depend on the art and how "white" it needs to be but it will absolutely make the ink easier to pass through yer 305 mesh.
We've had great results up to 225 w. 55lpi and D-White, straight up with probably about as much water as activator by weight, so 6%ish, to thin. I like to use the warm water from a teakettle to dissolve the activator and then stir that mixture in at high speed, activating and thinning all at once.
Thin too much and your opacity drops as does the print quality with the runny ink but if the white pigment is flusterclucking in the mesh openings then it may actually increase opacity. Got to find that sweet spot for the job.
Hey, we discharge on 300+ plus mesh. Of course every design is different and we only use what is required for the art. And yes, Next Levels are not the best for discharge. Take a look at that photo again. Two NL styles side by side. Both black substrates but different black and same for the discharge white due to the different black dye ratio. Awesome print but the press operator and the ink department is not at fault for that. And it works for this design but try doing it in say a bright lemon yellow or a bright neon green on those NL's and see what happens. I did a bunch of band shirts for a dude awhile ago and took everything out of our black stock. Ports, Gildan, AA's, NL's, FOL, Hanes, and the NL's were the dullest followed by Hanes and Ports. But that was for yellow not white and it really doesn't matter anyway as when the dye house mixes black at any of those brands facilities they use all of the leftover dyes combined to mix it up. Makes sense to not waste. We do that with plastisol, correct? If not you should and offer it as an "off black" to certain clients. Perfectly good ink and not wasting it. But to get back to the point it does make it really hard to make exact discharge matches every run for the same client in between weeks or months or even days sometimes.
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And I just looked at that photo again! Hahaha. Looks like a 100% cotton next to a blended v-neck. Something about v-necks and the material blends just doesn't do it for me. I just don't have the confidence to rock one!
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This print is eight ys old. Black WB plus three colors discharge. 60 line 305 meshPrinted a few thou on this without stencil breakdown or the dreaded "sliming" I keep hearing about
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This print is eight ys old. Black WB plus three colors discharge. 60 line 305 meshPrinted a few thou on this without stencil breakdown or the dreaded "sliming" I keep hearing about
Hey Tony,
I don't think the pic is popping up. And what is the "sliming" people are talking about? I must have missed it. I'll do a search.
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Sorry low camera battery.
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Try this
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Pat B! Awesome. Here is one for Vicci Martinez. Not as cool as Pat but a good print
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So how did it turn out Jon? Pics?
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haven't done them yet. I will not get to them until tomorrow. You know the customers get the yes we can get them done then takes their time with the approvals and dropping the shirts off. I will post what I can when they are done.
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haven't done them yet. I will not get to them until tomorrow. You know the customers get the yes we can get them done then takes their time with the approvals and dropping the shirts off. I will post what I can when they are done.
I've always been puzzled by this behavior.
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Hurry up and wait!
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Ok I got the jobs done. I did 5 jobs with 1 color front and 2 color back discharge on black (white front white and red back). There was some gildan 2000's, bellas, nextlevels and even some 50/50 hoodies. I figured I was in trouble but it was a rush and had to be done. All the designs had detailed fronts. The one below is just one of five. I did them all on 305 mesh at 50 LPI (a little afraid to go higher).
All the shirts discharged fine except the Nextlevels. Some did and some didn't so much. They still looked ok but was about 20 percent less white then the gildans. The 50/50 was brighter than the nextlevels. I added some white pigment from the CCi kit to bump up the white. (not sure if this was a good idea or not) It worked. The NL shirts brightened by about 5 percent. I added about 2 to 3 percent white to the mix. I used 6 percent activator. I ran them through the dryer a second time to make sure they were discharging fully and the color did not change.
I have to say on press it was headache free. No flash just wet on wet. Even the back 2 color print went smooth.
I wish the files were sharper than they were but all in all the print came out better then I expected.
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Nice work Jon!
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The customer picked up and was very happy. I did wash testing on them and they stayed bright and now have no hand.
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I finally got a good picture in daylight today. The other pic was taken under florescent and looked alot more yellow then the print really was. the picture below was done after the first wash under the skylights in the shop. The second pic is the inside of the shirt. It shows how much ink penetration I got with a 305 screen.
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Looks pretty good except I don't see any dots in there that would require a 305. From the pic I'd have run this 45 lpi on a 225.
How did they wash? I'm curious if the added white pigment just washes out or if it bonds.
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Zoocity,
This design is all halftone dots. It was a rush and the customer had lower res files. The files were all increased in size at one point so everything was blurry or just dirty and I couldn't clean then up enough in time so I just made what they had work. RUSH = best work for time given. Below is a shot of the face. It could have been done with a lower mesh and with a lower LPI but I didn't want to lose any detail.
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zoo,
sorry forgot to answer the white pigment question. I have no idea if it stayed on or not. I only printed 2 samples of this design. The only way I could tell is keep a nextlevel that didn't discharge very well in the beginning to one from the end of the run after I added the white. Then cut each in half washing one half then compare. I wish I did because a few others have wanted to know also. I know it penetrated very well so I would have to guess some of that white pigment would have stayed. It didn't brighten the shirts up a ton only about 5 percent. I only added 3 percent to the D-white. I didn't know if even that much was "OK". I think this is a question for Tony or maybe CCI. Its all new to me.
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It's hard to tell with the pigment because:
- Who knows how much you thinned with water, maybe adding back the pigment just brought it up to "out of the bucket" levels.
- The extra pig may have wound up too far on top of the fabric and looked opaque out the dryer but rinsed away over a few washings, bringing it back down to pre-pigment loading brightness.
Kind of the rub with discharge printing. I would imagine CCI beefed it's D-White up with all the pigment it can hold right out of the bucket but hard tellin' not knowin'. As a comparison I would never, ever, add WFX PC White to my Quick White for fear of crocking issues. But again, only the mfg could tell us regarding this.
Here's a quick pic of a monochrome we just ran on AA BB401 50/50s believe it or not. Sericol inks, 45lpi through a 225/48 S, one hit with the manny squeegee. Had to back off the activator to keep it tonal as the AA 50/50s discharge surprisingly well. In the mega close up you can see some of that 'melting' Tony refers to going on. The effect is amplified by the tonal ink of course and wouldn't apply to solid white as much but it still happens on white prints, I'll try to find a pic of the last white print we ran through 225 S with 55lpi tones. The only thing a higher tpi would get ya is some more of those lower % dots (if they are, in fact, needed) in most of these cases.
BTW, why the hell is it so hard to take a good pic of a printed shirt? They never seem to look right.
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zoo, I usually just run a plastisol white that is based down. I work with levels depending on what I am looking for, I go around 60% white/ 40% base. That seems to work well.
Less finicky than trying to run discharge and ending up with a specific color.
I do this trick a lot with colors as well. One of my favorite prints has columbia blue based way down on a navy shirt. really looks nice.
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zoo, I usually just run a plastisol white that is based down. I work with levels depending on what I am looking for, I go around 60% white/ 40% base. That seems to work well.
Less finicky than trying to run discharge and ending up with a specific color.
I do this trick a lot with colors as well. One of my favorite prints has columbia blue based way down on a navy shirt. really looks nice.
Used to do the same but man, the hand on these is unreal and the print will look better for longer. And, you don't get the dot 'melting' with plastisol.
It would also be as much or maybe more challenging to get the vivid minty-blue with plastisol. It's really no more work to mix up the discharge and test out than it is the plastisol. Theres the activating step but that ain't bad. My printer prefers plastisol generally though.
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Heres a fun one. On Eternal Apparel sheer. The burlesque girl is three colors and the type is on separate plates. Notice how white the white is. Added a slurry spray for effect.
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Tony, what are your thoughts on adding CCI white pig to the CCI D-White?
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Haven't done it with the CCI brand but in the past no noticeable difference. Also I try to leave the white PC out of most formulas for colors that are clean and deeply hued.