TSB
screen printing => Screen Making => Topic started by: sweetts on September 28, 2012, 09:11:30 AM
-
So all the roller frame guys and gals do you use bulk mesh, Newman panels or shurloc panels? What do you base your choice on? Cost, longevity, ease of use, wear, performance, Max tension? Have you tried all three?
Sent from samsung gem(the worst smart phone ever)
-
i use bulk mesh, as it's pretty easy!
-
I just picked up some panels to try Dennis (DK) is a big fan of them
Sent from samsung gem(the worst smart phone ever)
-
I just picked up some panels to try Dennis (DK) is a big fan of them
Sent from samsung gem(the worst smart phone ever)
I like them. I use Shurloc, but some people swear by Newman brand panels. I guess that you can get better tension with them.
Unless I have issues with Shurloc, I'm nor switching
-
Stop by when you have a chance to take a look :)
-
I picked up some Newman's so I LLC let you know. Next time I am out west I will
Sent from samsung gem(the worst smart phone ever)
-
I do bulk mesh too. I've tried a couple of shur-loc panels, never tried newman.
They really weren't any different than bulk, but for how fast I can stretch bolt mesh, twenty bucks is way too much for a panel. It may be quite a different cost breakdown if you're buying by the yard.
I think my 305/34 costs just under five bucks a screen in mesh, that's the most expensive count I have a bolt of...
-
Shur-loc is the way to go in MY shop...we have a table and M3's....all of our screens are at the same newtons for each mesh count...just one less thing to minimize....
Plus we can do a screen in about 2 min....it is more about the cost of printing vs. the cost of mesh....we need great screens vs good screens....
just the way we do it.
sam
-
Was just about to edit my post but Sam had already posted and brings up a great point, if no one ever paid you to spend weeks stretching mesh from a bolt, or you don't pick up on technique quickly, you may never get a return on bolt mesh. I slip, stretch, and stage tension a screen in about fifteen minutes--not to say I wouldn't like an L2 to forego the stage tensioning part, but at fifteen bucks a screen or so extra for panels, that's sixty bucks an hour without a roller table.
Don't expect to do it fast until you've done more than a few dozen screens, just work on doing it right.
-
Was just about to edit my post but Sam had already posted and brings up a great point, if no one ever paid you to spend weeks stretching mesh from a bolt, or you don't pick up on technique quickly, you may never get a return on bolt mesh. I slip, stretch, and stage tension a screen in about fifteen minutes--not to say I wouldn't like an L2 to forego the stage tensioning part, but at fifteen bucks a screen or so extra for panels, that's sixty bucks an hour without a roller table.
Don't expect to do it fast until you've done more than a few dozen screens, just work on doing it right.
That is a reason I picked up the panels. I do not want to mess with the bolt mesh, and each panel comes the same and there is no guesswork.
I'm done stretching screen in 6-7 minutes, and with having only 24 Newman frames, I decided to go all panels.
-
Another cost is the locking strips 85 bucks a roll, crazy
Sent from samsung gem(the worst smart phone ever)
-
I use bulk mesh because I live outside the USA.
I have problems with alignment clips when I use high mesh count. The alignment clip can cut the mesh while putting it into the grooves, or when I am doing corner softening.
-
I use all shur-loc and have for the past 6 or 7 years.
-
You'll get a different answer from everyone and everyone is right when you think about it. I've always said you can pay yourself and/or your employees to load your mesh or you can pay shurloc to do it...choice is yours.
If you have the time, start with bolt and learn it. Make a system you can train someone else to learn on and do it as well.
No time to learn? Employees not going for this? Don't want to learn this junk, just want to print at higher tension? Go with panels.
The only thing you give up with panels is control and then some extra cash out of your budget. Stretching a shur-loc on a roller master is deeeluxe, very easy to do and a low rate of failure.
Stretching bolt mesh is easy too and, personally, I enjoy doing it.
abchung - sand and polish your alignment clips. insert with care, allowing them to expand slowly, and never slide them in the channel
-
abchung - sand and polish your alignment clips. insert with care, allowing them to expand slowly, and never slide them in the channel
Remove with care too.
Last time I nicked mesh it was taking a clip out stretching some 390... ouch.
And remember, you only need to buy locking strips when you screw them up. ;)
-
I've got some sefar panels coming in next week so I'll be able to compare them to all the others I've used.
-
I've got some sefar panels coming in next week so I'll be able to compare them to all the others I've used.
Hey Guys,
We did get a dozen 156/64's of the Sefar panels in and tensioned, retensioned, and are on the production floor now. Will be checking their tensions again on Friday and see how they hold up for a third tensioning. If they need it. Right off the bat I liked them because they are stitched in instead of glued in. Even though we use Franmar "clean" diptank solution I still believe the solution eats away at the panels that are glued in. But hell, I don't make them so please let me know if I am wrong. That's all I got. Wish I had more info!
-
I got my panels in this morning but they were the panel frame panels instead of the roller frame panel. Maybe the third time at sending me these panels will be the charm.
-
Mine wont be here till tomorrow but plan on using putting them I this weekend
Sent from samsung gem(the worst smart phone ever)
-
I have used all 3. I use shurloc for the most part. I hated bulk mesh. I though it was too time consuming. I did not notice enough of a difference between the newman and shurloc. When I really started newman was not offering panels (to my knowledge). Now everyone here knows the color code for mesh counts with the shurloc system. I think it is easier to leave it alone.
Matt
-
I got my panels in this morning but they were the panel frame panels instead of the roller frame panel. Maybe the third time at sending me these panels will be the charm.
Yea i feel your pain. Panel frames and system is now a complete joke and Nazdar should do them selves a favor and dump it. I finally got the correct panels in my shop but guess what, two broke and the remaining four could only be partly stretched, what i mean is you cant turn the locking strip 180 like your supposed to, on one end you have to leave it straight up, now i have four screens with uneven tension. I am done with Panels and the head aches and complete lack of consistency.
-
Yea i feel your pain. Panel frames and system is now a complete joke and Nazdar should do them selves a favor and dump it. I finally got the correct panels in my shop but guess what, two broke and the remaining four could only be partly stretched, what i mean is you cant turn the locking strip 180 like your supposed to, on one end you have to leave it straight up, now i have four screens with uneven tension. I am done with Panels and the head aches and complete lack of consistency.
That sucks, I really thought they had a great product, or more so a great idea for a product. Theoretically it's a perfect compromise to newmans or statics. Forget about the benefits of taking the panels in and out for repeat one color jobs, just the price for a screen and the tension you could achieve is enough. I've still got our 3 frames but I don't know if it would be worth it to snap these panels in there or not. I might as well put them in and get some usage out of them I guess.
-
Panels are nice, work great, hold great tension and are fast to install. But, for their cost, bulk mesh is the way we will stay. If we were stretching every single day a dozen or more screens per day, panels may be the way, but bulk mesh is half the price and with a roller master table I don't see enough of a time savings to pay double for a screen panel that may easily pop in the hustle a bustle of a days work. If you soften your corners really good and do a mass cutting of your bulk mesh in some down time, it's only a couple more minutes per frame to put your own mesh in with strips.
-
Yea i feel your pain. Panel frames and system is now a complete joke and Nazdar should do them selves a favor and dump it. I finally got the correct panels in my shop but guess what, two broke and the remaining four could only be partly stretched, what i mean is you cant turn the locking strip 180 like your supposed to, on one end you have to leave it straight up, now i have four screens with uneven tension. I am done with Panels and the head aches and complete lack of consistency.
That sucks, I really thought they had a great product, or more so a great idea for a product. Theoretically it's a perfect compromise to newmans or statics. Forget about the benefits of taking the panels in and out for repeat one color jobs, just the price for a screen and the tension you could achieve is enough. I've still got our 3 frames but I don't know if it would be worth it to snap these panels in there or not. I might as well put them in and get some usage out of them I guess.
Hey guys, maybe I missed the boat on something. A "perfect compromise to newmans or statics." So we are talking about a whole different system here? My bad. The panels I were referring to a few posts ago just snap into our newmans. We are trying them in place of our shurlocs. We received a bundle as a promo and so far they are great and extremely cheap if we do decide to purchase.
-
Hey guys, maybe I missed the boat on something. A "perfect compromise to newmans or statics." So we are talking about a whole different system here? My bad. The panels I were referring to a few posts ago just snap into our newmans. We are trying them in place of our shurlocs. We received a bundle as a promo and so far they are great and extremely cheap if we do decide to purchase.
You're right on track, I just got off track a little bit when I mentioned they sent me the panels for the old "panel frame" product instead of what you are talking about I got the sefar panels for m3 roller frames in just a few minutes ago. I'll be stretching some screens up within the hour so stay tuned.
-
Bulk mesh here. Panels are pricey and since we have a mix of rollers/static I can't use panels on my stretch and glue Accustrech.
-
I've got some sefar panels coming in next week so I'll be able to compare them to all the others I've used.
Hey Guys,
We did get a dozen 156/64's of the Sefar panels in and tensioned, retensioned, and are on the production floor now. Will be checking their tensions again on Friday and see how they hold up for a third tensioning. If they need it. Right off the bat I liked them because they are stitched in instead of glued in. Even though we use Franmar "clean" diptank solution I still believe the solution eats away at the panels that are glued in. But hell, I don't make them so please let me know if I am wrong. That's all I got. Wish I had more info!
So after about 2 weeks on the production floor they all fell between 5 and 10 newtons. Going to retension tomorrow for a third time. See how it goes and shall report. But they are about half the cost of the shurlocs if that helps.
-
Just stretched two Newman panels 166 took them up to 40 last night, checked before I left today looks like they dropped to 34 will retention tonight and report back. I gotta say I will be switching To panels so much easier and quicker
Sent from samsung gem(the worst smart phone ever)
-
Sweets...i think you just nailed it...they are faster...now if you spend less time on screens and more time on press wouldn't shurlocs cost less in the big picture? If you take what you can produce off a press in 5 min vs. making a bulk mesh frame you are way ahead...
just sayin
-
That all depends Sam. If you have someone with nothing to do for 20 mins, they can cut several panels. If they have that happen a few times a week, your ready to go pre-cuts are waiting. It takes all of 2 mins to insert mesh and soften corners. Do several insert/softening and have them waiting for the table to stretch. Double the cost for a shurloc, or newman pane, to me, isn't worth it for us. But that doesn't mean it's not a good way to go for another shop. Like yesterday. I had a little down time waiting on an approval, sliced 12 panels from bulk mesh, inserted the mesh and softened, had 3 frames stretched and taped, and now today 9 are waiting for the table and the extra time to gettum done. Just sayin, for us, they are not cost effective right now, but I will admit, if you are really limited on time and in need of quick paneling, they are pretty awesome. I find Murakami mesh to also be alot stronger and durable than what are being used on the econo panels from shurloc and less expensive in bulk.
-
Mike
if you have guys in the back of the house sitting around doing nothing then the front of the house needs cleaning...NOONE in the back should ever be just waiting for something...if so, Management and the front end has failed...
sam
-
welllll, if we are cutting and stretching mesh we ain't sittin now are we. hehhee I know what you mean. I know the time will come soon where it will make sense for the expense, but you yourself have given the advice to us, spend only what you need to. :D
-
I stretched up 3 sefar panels on Weds and I must say I really like them. I'm crunching the numbers and I have a price in mind where they need to be to make it cost effective to use the panels versus bolt mesh. The shurloc panels were 3 times the cost of a similar bolt mesh and according to my numbers it only makes sense to use panels if they are around 2 times the cost or slightly less.
I took the 195/55's up to 40 newtons and then wrote down the tension levels every couple hours to see how well they held initial tension. They all settled in around 33-34 newtons after sitting around for 24 hours. From what I can tell, the corners are a little tighter than shurloc makes theres, and I was nervous getting the sefar panel up to 40 cause the corners were starting to scream.
-
Alan, how deep do you pull your fabric when you soften the corners. I started leaving less excess mesh so that the rollers are about 1/4 inch of mesh all around once stretched, and for softening, I go 4" in on each corner and then soften the mesh the entire thickness of the roller till it touches the table. By doing that, I've been able to stretch to 50, and then after they relax from a use in production, re-stretch back to 50 and be safe from popping.
-
I push the mesh down till it touches the roller master with really high tension mesh, on the ones that can't get above 30, I don't soften quite as much. Do you use the channel clamps to hold the mesh at the corners so you don't soften too far? I only got 3.5" from the corner, measuring from where the roller tube enters the corner piece. I'm not sure how much .5" will change things but I got the 3.5" from Don and Bill so I've never strayed from that. It sounds like we are almost identical in stretch technique with the 3.5 and 4 being the only difference.
-
I stretched up 3 sefar panels on Weds and I must say I really like them. I'm crunching the numbers and I have a price in mind where they need to be to make it cost effective to use the panels versus bolt mesh. The shurloc panels were 3 times the cost of a similar bolt mesh and according to my numbers it only makes sense to use panels if they are around 2 times the cost or slightly less.
I took the 195/55's up to 40 newtons and then wrote down the tension levels every couple hours to see how well they held initial tension. They all settled in around 33-34 newtons after sitting around for 24 hours. From what I can tell, the corners are a little tighter than shurloc makes theres, and I was nervous getting the sefar panel up to 40 cause the corners were starting to scream.
Did they drop most of the tension the first couple hours?
I'm wondering if you have a set time for relaxation before you torque bolts--what little experience I have with pneumatic stretching says there will be a huge difference in stability if you stretch and immediately lock down/glue vs. waiting ten or twenty minutes.
Screenprintguy: I do pretty much what you're saying for 75% of what I stretch, high mesh I do that initially, and give it just a little more softening after a few cycles, but before I tape it up. Never measured how far in to go--I just use the half vinyl squeegee and do it like I'm 'chopping carrots', as they say, to let out more mesh near the corner than the other end of the tool. Rarely have the mesh slipping past the end.
-
I was going to do a video of me stretching but I think the videos of the newman guys doing it is exactly how I do it. It takes me 10-12 minutes to do one with bolt mesh. It takes me less than 4 minutes with a shurloc panel and about 4 minutes to do a sefar panel. It takes a few minutes to get the mesh in the panels perfectly and then I take my time with getting the tension up. I don't just hit the switches and then I'm done, I gradually bring it up to tension. If you watch the video of John doing one I am slightly slower than that. I takes me longer to soften the corners and I bring the mesh up to tension a bit slower and "walk" the rollers outward.
-
Alan, I just measured where you are talking about and it ends up 3.5", I was counting the extra space, but you are right, it's really from where the mesh locks in. I usually put the clips in at the ending point like the Newman videos show, but I've gotten to where I can put a finger on the mesh and press where that clip would go and hold for a couple jiggles of the softening tool. I just use a 3m squeegee that you would use for vinyl sign application. I noticed though, I have two back there and 1 is a little shorter than the other. I notice once over 180 mesh, gotta be a little more careful, but I'm not trying to achieve a 60 newton stretch. With my Diamondback press and how it likes to fight itself between chopper pressure and the boards and print arms flexing, 40 newtons is a nice tension, even 30 works, but 40 keeps things nice for prints that are not more than 14" wide, if I go wider, gotta go to a sloppy screen in the 15-20 newton range from the flex of the composite pallets. We are going to change and order a new set of aluminum pallets to replace those after new years, just not sure if we want to go with the heavy M&R boards or honey combed alum boards from action. I lean to the M&R boards for the guarantee and all.
-
You'll get a different answer from everyone and everyone is right when you think about it. I've always said you can pay yourself and/or your employees to load your mesh or you can pay shurloc to do it...choice is yours.
If you have the time, start with bolt and learn it. Make a system you can train someone else to learn on and do it as well.
No time to learn? Employees not going for this? Don't want to learn this junk, just want to print at higher tension? Go with panels.
The only thing you give up with panels is control and then some extra cash out of your budget. Stretching a shur-loc on a roller master is deeeluxe, very easy to do and a low rate of failure.
Stretching bolt mesh is easy too and, personally, I enjoy doing it.
Nothing to add really other than a +10
I like to load bolt mesh personally as well. This removes a number of variables from my pre-press equation.
-
Bolt mesh for us only. We tried the panels and they are way to expensive. We did a comparison with my screen maker. His time to build a frame with mesh and one to build a panel. It was way cheaper to build from bolt mesh figuring in his time and product materials.
This is based on our shop and not anyone else. Everyone has a different opinion on this subject and what works for your shop.