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screen printing => General Screen Printing => Topic started by: jason-23 on October 29, 2012, 09:00:41 PM
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Because I won't print the word f!ck on a shirt because it well reflect negatively on my and my Christian based business. She really got offended that I brought religion into it and she thought I was insinuating that I thought she was a bad person which is not the case. I just don't print bad language or nudity. I mean really what do people want from a Christian based business. I know she has been to my site and seen my scripture verses, really! And to boot it's a copy right issue, she also wants them at $1.50 a shirt printed, and by Saturday... Stupid!!!
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you didn't loose that job, you chose not to do it. . .move on, never let the customer dictate YOUR price. I always say, who the fk is you to tell me waht to charge? do you know my bills? nope, then shut it.
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Same here lost a job allso because I refuse to do a redraw of crappy art for free....dig this they faxed it over and if your fax is like mine, fax machine please...who does not have a jpg of there logo please!!!!
Darryl
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Did I hear someone say............Custom Ink?? LOL
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You should've told her to "get the f!ck out of my shop" when she got pissed . . . :P
Like Homer said, you chose not to do it.
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As I've said before in other threads, up here in Jacksonville there is a city ordinance which
makes public display of obscenity illegal. I'm sure there are other places with similar laws.
Ask her if she would take the chance of being sued by someone who wore one of the questionable
shirts and got a hefty ticket. She also might be guilty of distribution of obscene material. Hell, she
could sue YOU! Let someone else take that chance- some fly-by-night internet company will be
ignorant enough to print it.
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Because I won't print the word f!ck on a shirt because it well reflect negatively on my and my Christian based business. She really got offended that I brought religion into it and she thought I was insinuating that I thought she was a bad person which is not the case. I just don't print bad language or nudity. I mean really what do people want from a Christian based business. I know she has been to my site and seen my scripture verses, really! And to boot it's a copy right issue, she also wants them at $1.50 a shirt printed, and by Saturday... Stupid!!!
now you will get 7 jobs to replace it..we would have done the same thing
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We've been on here many times over talking about (What would you do) and it's probably more that would do it then not. I for sure would not. I've turned down a few jobs each year due to not meeting my own criteria. I lost one customer completely. He figured it was not work his time to try and remember if I would do this or that so he just uses someone else. I'm ok with that, However, I would print a scantily clad vixen on a motorcycle. Not nekit but seductively well done.
Hold your ground and do what you think it right. Then also keep in mind, not to be too "religious" about things. There is honoring Gods word and then there is "religious acts" coming from "people" that do not necessarily align with Gods word. My definition of honoring Gods word falls inline with not printing that word on shirts.
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Nice! The problem with the world is people moved from following their moral compass. Stick to what you believe and do what you feel is correct.
Sent from samsung gem(the worst smart phone ever)
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I always find it amusing that our faith based line is called OSDS..............
Our Shirts Don't Suck. Guess the meaning of "Suck" has been watered down over the years.
(There's one for you Pierre!)
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There are some printers out there that will print anything for a buck, it use to be one on the old boards and that dude could piss folks off, but you have to stick with your guns.
Darryl
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My father in law prints in texas...he said " i won't print anything that i would not want my grandkids to see" lol...
I'm not that hardcore, but yea theres enough people out there to print that stuff.
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My father in law prints in texas...he said " i won't print anything that i would not want my grandkids to see" lol...
I'm not that hardcore, but yea theres enough people out there to print that stuff.
Go to Walmart. There's people out there that WEAR that stuff.
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ok - printing it is one thing, you do it to make money. but who WEARS this thing? what type of white trash is going to walk around wearing a shirt w F*Ck on it?
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ok - printing it is one thing, you do it to make money. but who WEARS this thing? what type of white trash is going to walk around wearing a shirt w F*Ck on it?
WOW! I have wore many of shirts with less than respectable prints and meanings, but I never thought I was white trash. Just because it does not suit you to wear it that those who do are any less of a person than yourself.
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F*CK. . you would wear a shirt with F*CK on it for MY kids to see? not cool at all. . .making a statement is one thing but that line is crossed right there.
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ok - printing it is one thing, you do it to make money. but who WEARS this thing? what type of white trash is going to walk around wearing a shirt w F*Ck on it?
a customer refered me to this person through Facebook. Her father is a cancer survivor and she is doing a fundraiser event this Saturday. The first image she sends me is the SU2C logo which is a big outfit and has copyrights all over the place. I tell her no I can do that but I well do something like it just change the wording and font.Remember she busted my nuts on price, needs them in her hands by Friday and wants them to be cool looking and not cheap looking... So after hooking her up at $3.55 per shirt printed and shipped to her she still complained about the price and then wanted to do a split order of the the two different images, different color shirts, color changes and a few one offs of a totally different image. Then she sends me another image that says f*ck cancer with a Jolly Roger in place of the u, I told her no on the language and she didn't understand why not so I explained my business to her and she got totally bent that I brought religion into it and felt like I was insenuating that she and her family were bad people.
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I'm sorry aa, I apologize, I haven't had any coffee and I am friggen brutal today. . .holy smokes, I apologize. . .
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F*CK. . you would wear a shirt with F*CK on it for MY kids to see? not cool at all. . .making a statement is one thing but that line is crossed right there.
who says a person wearing a shirt like that is making a statement. Plus there are appropriate time to wear a shirt with objectionable material and then there is not. But to just label people who choose to wear the shirt as white trash is what I was WOW about.
I do have a few shirts with F*ck on them and dick and others various names. i wear them to bars or concerts so if you bring your kids to the concerts and the bars which I go to then you are imposing your kids on my lifestyle not the other way around.
Also some people from different religions are offended by other religions statements so are those to be banned and the people who wear them white trash?
just was shocked by the name calling, I had thought we have moved passed labeling people trash and other demeaning labels.
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C'mom now. We all have "a little bit" of white trash in us. ;D
I argued this point of someone (wearing that in front of my kids) on the street a few years back. I still feel the same but I see their stance and that is to show free speech. WHY, I don't know. It's free speech (they say) Ok, but why? They are just expressing their intense emotions over a subject matter and lack other skills to emphasize that position. I think it would be funnier to say....
Expletive CANER!
(Copyright Dot-Tone-Designs)
People get it.
Many of the same people wearing the F*CK tees complain about people wearing "JESUS" shirts. It offends them.
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I don't consider those that wear offensive stuff trash just a a disrespectful to other people around them, there's places you wearstuff like that and the other people around youdon't mine, but to bust off in Mickey D's, Walmart, the mall goes a little far. The peole that do this wants the attenion thats why they do it... some people love drama in their life.
Darryl
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we print just about anything here. its never bothered any of our employees or customers - most of our customers want it on their shirts.
I dont listen to the bands that we print for, but ill wear a Cannibal Corpse shirt to work. Dead babies hanging from meat hooks while a skeleton is butchering a woman, i personally think its silly, but it pays my bills... i wore it to the grocery store once, got some weird looks from some kids. now i turn my shirt inside out when i go shopping after work.
my personal favorite, which we print and i do wear would be Dead Kennedys - In God We Trust, Inc. it has jesus on a cross of dollar bills.
a lot of the groups that are against the Cannibal Corpse shirts are religious groups - there is more gore in the bible than on one Cannibal Corpse shirt.
to each their own.
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I always find it amusing that our faith based line is called OSDS..............
Our Shirts Don't Suck. Guess the meaning of "Suck" has been watered down over the years.
(There's one for you Pierre!)
Here's a whole different subject; the lowering of standards in everyday language. A limited vocabulary has made everything from a tornado, to a coveted skateboard deck, to God's glory, or a win on the field, or a nice crayon rendering of the family cat by your six year old "awesome".
"Suck" definitely has its roots in homophobic fellatio, while "wuss" is a combination of wimp and pussy. These recently evolved words allow "nice" folks to use otherwise crass terms, and not feel guilty.
While language is always evolving, like the push for Ebonics a few years back, it does not always move forward.
Myself, I taught my kid at an early age to save expletives for the right moment. If everything is f*ck this, or f*ckin' that, what are you going to yell when you hit your finger with a hammer?
Oh, and would I wear or print f*ck on a shirt? It depends on the context.
This has always been one of my favorites.
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I printed a one off for a male with just the word in really bold lettering BUKKAKE on the front. I had no clue what it meant but when I looked it up oh boy, never knew if the shirt was for his GF, wife or him self.
For those not in the know, google the word.
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ok - printing it is one thing, you do it to make money. but who WEARS this thing? what type of white trash is going to walk around wearing a shirt w F*Ck on it?
Seriously.
People have run ideas through here and we've even printed some and I'm like "ain't no one in their right mind
gonna wear this".
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That's killer Andy. Any copyright on that?
I once wore my "This Bike is a Pipe Bomb" shirt through an airport. That didn't go over so well.
We will print anything here as well.
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Expletive CANER!
(Copyright Dot-Tone-Designs)
What the hell did Caner ever do to you?
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we print just about anything here. its never bothered any of our employees or customers - most of our customers want it on their shirts.
I dont listen to the bands that we print for, but ill wear a Cannibal Corpse shirt to work. Dead babies hanging from meat hooks while a skeleton is butchering a woman, i personally think its silly, but it pays my bills... i wore it to the grocery store once, got some weird looks from some kids. now i turn my shirt inside out when i go shopping after work.
my personal favorite, which we print and i do wear would be Dead Kennedys - In God We Trust, Inc. it has jesus on a cross of dollar bills.
a lot of the groups that are against the Cannibal Corpse shirts are religious groups - there is more gore in the bible than on one Cannibal Corpse shirt.
to each their own.
We are the same here. I will print whatever walks in the door to a point. Thats what we do. We print shirts. Whether it has the word Fck, I love Jesus, God Damn it!, Jesus Fng Christ, I love you, Im gay, I like sheep, or any other saying its all good as long as they pay. If they want to look like a dumbass walking around its no skin off my nose.
One other thing I find funny is when the religious person says the word "Frick" in place of the word "F@ck" What the hell is that about? I love asking them why did they use frick because you know they were thinking the other word and just trying to be cool......lol
This link explains it all. It is why it is one of my favorite words.
the word freak (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26UA578yQ5g#)
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One other thing I find funny is when the religious person says the word "Frick" in place of the word "F@ck" What the hell is that about? I love asking them why did they use frick because you know they were thinking the other word and just trying to be cool......lol
Well...son of a gun! I learnt that years before the "Son of a B#@#h". Danged blasted & confounded anyways.
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Spring Break, Cancun Mexico, 1999, I wore a white t-shirt with a black print that said "F ck Y'all, I'm from Texas" in big bold font on the front. I'm embarrased that I wore that shirt now, but things were different for me when I was in college. I didn't wear it through the airport, to the mall, restaurant or anything like that, I just put it on the first night there and I'll be honest, it was a huge, enormous hit with pretty much everyone, especially the ladies...if you know what I mean. I wouldn't wear something like that these days, no disrespect to those who do, to each their own.
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One other thing I find funny is when the religious person says the word "Frick" in place of the word "F@ck" What the hell is that about? I love asking them why did they use frick because you know they were thinking the other word and just trying to be cool......lol
Well...son of a gun! I learnt that years before the "Son of a B#@#h". Danged blasted & confounded anyways.
Dan b!tch is not a bad word. You know that........ ;D I do not wear shirts that say Fck on it. I dont have any even though I have printed plenty of them. I just find it funny that it is just a word and people get so offended over a word that most of them probably use any ways.
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One other thing I find funny is when the religious person says the word "Frick" in place of the word "F@ck" What the hell is that about? I love asking them why did they use frick because you know they were thinking the other word and just trying to be cool......lol
Well...son of a gun! I learnt that years before the "Son of a B#@#h". Danged blasted & confounded anyways.
Dan b!tch is not a bad word. You know that........ ;D I do not wear shirts that say Fck on it. I dont have any even though I have printed plenty of them. I just find it funny that it is just a word and people get so offended over a word that most of them probably use any ways.
How it was originally used in conversation is not like it is used today. Like for instance, "I would like to breed your bitch with my german Shepherd". Then, it was became used in a derogatory manor. As in "You SON OF A B!TCH". Meaning, son of a female dog.
http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/16/messages/875.html (http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/16/messages/875.html)
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some folks like to dis-respect people around them, some have class. I was in a supermarket last year, and some d-bag has it 12 x 12 on the back of his shirt. Absolutely classless, and I say it probably a couple hundred times a day, but not in children's faces. You could see any number of dads wanting to take him to task. Jason, live your life your way, and don't make excuses for doing what you think is right.
Steve
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we print just about anything here. its never bothered any of our employees or customers - most of our customers want it on their shirts.
I dont listen to the bands that we print for, but ill wear a Cannibal Corpse shirt to work. Dead babies hanging from meat hooks while a skeleton is butchering a woman, i personally think its silly, but it pays my bills... i wore it to the grocery store once, got some weird looks from some kids. now i turn my shirt inside out when i go shopping after work.
my personal favorite, which we print and i do wear would be Dead Kennedys - In God We Trust, Inc. it has jesus on a cross of dollar bills.
Duane I always liked the "If you don't like Ingvay Malmstien eat a Steaming Bag of crap" print
Doesn't pull any punches, straight and to the point.
a lot of the groups that are against the Cannibal Corpse shirts are religious groups - there is more gore in the bible than on one Cannibal Corpse shirt.
to each their own.
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im just a guilty as the next sinner when it comes to using the F bomb, i mean I was a stealing, cheating, pirate of a auto tech in a prior time in my life. Its the hardest when your kid asks "what does that mean" or "you say it why cant I". Here is a good example of a rebellious kid. I saw a teenager wearing a Halloween Horror nights t-shirt into church which was pretty graphic and in very poor taste in my opinion but no one, to my knowledge, said anything to him and this kid is a regular active member in our church of 5000.
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Never mind
Probably too offensive for here........
Ruin my squeaky clean image, lol.
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While freelancing (during some hard times too I might add) I turned down a lucrative deal to do a shirt line for a group that turned out to be white supremist organization. Sometimes it is hard to stand on your principles but in the end you are a better person for it.
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While freelancing (during some hard times too I might add) I turned down a lucrative deal to do a shirt line for a group that turned out to be white supremist organization. Sometimes it is hard to stand on your principles but in the end you are a better person for it.
Yeah, I turned down a job for the local GOP too! ;D
appropriate sound effect (http://instantrimshot.com/classic/?sound=rimshot)
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In my opinion you did the right thing. It is harder to stand up for what is right and what you believe in sometimes for backlash of what others might say or think. I see little kids questioning right from wrong more than some adults I know including myself. A year ago I would probably do any artwork or digitizing someone would order but I think there comes a time in your life where you have the courage to say, it isn't what I believe and a couple bucks isn't going to buy that from me. I also believe I don't have to apologize for it. If in my heart I believe I am doing the right thing and following my moral compass and as Homer was saying trying to protect his children from it why apologize if it is what you believe in. A baby hanging from a hook is not cool, it is disgusting no matter how you want to put a spin on it. So, it's a band, so what.
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I can see the mindset here, but how many 'acceptable' designs and logos are sourced and pushed by companies that may literally enable or encourage the equivalent of putting babies on hooks?
This all comes down to what you pay attention to... if your perception is that metal, punk, and hip hop is ruining the world, and petroleum, fast food, and bottled water companies are making the world a better place, that's your choice--and you are always creating your own world.
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I can see the mindset here, but how many 'acceptable' designs and logos are sourced and pushed by companies that may literally enable or encourage the equivalent of putting babies on hooks?
This all comes down to what you pay attention to... if your perception is that metal, punk, and hip hop is ruining the world, and petroleum, fast food, and bottled water companies are making the world a better place, that's your choice--and you are always creating your own world.
I think that one would be hard pressed to equate an image of a water company's mountain stream (whether factual or representative of the true source or not) to that of babies on meat hooks in various states of butchery.
This brings to mind the decision of Capitol records to change the original version of the Beatles' Yesterday and Today cover. It was merely a matter of image, and target market.
Today's corpses sell well to a market much more accustomed to gore and violence as acceptable entertainment. In fact, the cover is quite tame, merely not how the nice boys with shaggy hair were usually thought of.
(http://media.screened.com/uploads/0/4570/437388-beatlesbutcher.jpeg)
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I think Foo is referring to the actual physical effect the companies or bands have on our world, not just visually.
As in while Cannibal Corpse may have inspired about a billion long haired hessians to rock the eff
out in their mini-truck and attempt to be as offensive as possible, they certainly are not responsible
for about a zillion 6 ounce water bottles washing up on our shores and choking birds and whatnot.
Hell, the actual visual of a slaughterhouse probably pales in comparison to any of their artwork. But I'm going
to go eat a hamburger and not think about it.
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While freelancing (during some hard times too I might add) I turned down a lucrative deal to do a shirt line for a group that turned out to be white supremist organization. Sometimes it is hard to stand on your principles but in the end you are a better person for it.
We had a guy come in a few years ago asking if we could recreate is Adolf Hitler World Tour '38 - '44. Where do they come from? Who here would have printed it for them? Probably fellow socialists...
Steve
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I think there are obvious moral principles we can apply in these situations, but whether or not we apply them fairly, disinterested in what we have to pecuniarily gain, or justify our actions to make a $ is where the fallen will starts dictating the fallen intellect. I think the real problem here, screenfoo, is that you are a moral relativist.
Come now -- you don't really believe what you said, do you? "You are always creating your own world"??????? "If your pereption..."?????
If that's your position -- the prevalent relativistic, borderline solipsistic one that says that what is right and wrong is created (Protagoras' old adage, "Man is the measure of all things" [as the moderns and postmoderns like to say with such indignation and "Chronological Snobbery" - that's so "ancient" "pre-modern" and "passe") and "different strokes for different folks", etc. etc. -- then don't start badmouthing that Bin Laden was wrong - you can only say you don't like what he did - him being wrong is only "your perception". Don't complain that what the child molesters and human traffickers are doing is really wrong, just something you don't fancy. And, when a thief comes and burns your office down and steals all of your money from your account, don't start whining that he did something - ghasp! wheeze! spit! - "wrong" or "evil" or "un-just" (which is why I also wonder why relativists don't also want to eliminate laws, as laws are merely extensions/conclusions of people's moral positions that are apparently "made up" by some other person, so they're not applicable to me) - for, you've precluded the possibility for such reality; you and he just differ on your "created worlds." OOhh ooh , can I be your banker or investor - I bet I can show you you don't believe moral truths are "created" -- that you really do believe in right and wrong? As Aristotle made clear thousands of years ago in his Nichomachean Ethics, you can think relativism, but you can't live it. Moreover, only if you believe in moral absolutes (i.e., we are NOT creating our own world), can you call something wrong and ban it and not any of this silly, childish "what's right for you is not necessarily right for me" rubbish. That's why moral absolutes provide for progress and why moral relativism is a stuck-in-the-mud regressive philosophy. Your position reminds me of a childish, little man named Josef Stalin, who needed nothing short of a good whuppin'. His world -- one that I certainly want no part of -- is one that you would have to permit, since who are we to impose our values on anyone else's "created world," since that's all we are doing -- not discovering and abiding by moral truths, but simply "creating values" or "transvaluating values" (Nietzsche, another philosophical wimp, would be so proud!) in our created worlds? (It would also do well to check out the 1st chapter of C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity on how this very discussion you're having here, defending a moral relativistic worldview of "creating your own world" (obviously by it you mean "moral world" given the context), is self-contradictory, not just in practice, but in theory as well)... On to Messieur Stalin:
"Everything I have said and done in these last years is relativism by intuition.... If relativism signifies contempt for fixed categories and men who claim to be the bearers of an objective, immortal truth... then there is nothing more relativistic than fascistic attitudes and activity. From the fact that all ideologies are of equal value, that all ideologies are mere fictions, the modern relativist infers that everybody has the right to create for himself his own ideology and to attempt to enforce it with all the energy of which he is capable" (From Mussolini's Diuturna, 374-77).
Peace out homie.
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Urban Outfitters has several f-bomb graphic tees BTW
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HA! remember that one that I think it was Abercrombie & Fitch put out. "Two WONGS don't make a WHITE".
They caught a lot of flack for that one but goes to show, the mighty can do no harm. They were not scathed.
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Hell it was only as recent as the 80's that the below picture and album name by Metallica was not allowed and they had to change the album name to Kill Em All.
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I can see the mindset here, but how many 'acceptable' designs and logos are sourced and pushed by companies that may literally enable or encourage the equivalent of putting babies on hooks?
This all comes down to what you pay attention to... if your perception is that metal, punk, and hip hop is ruining the world, and petroleum, fast food, and bottled water companies are making the world a better place, that's your choice--and you are always creating your own world.
Interesting. No one is saying any of those bands are ruining the world. I don't remember stating anything of that sort or anyone else for that matter. Just that they are just a band nothing more, nothing less. So, having a disgusting image is cool because it is for a band? Just don't see it. If you have taken care of sick babies the way I have your perception may be different on how you would view an image of a child. Also, if you have to turn your shirt inside out because it may be offensive to some, maybe it isn't worth wearing. Just saying.
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I can see the mindset here, but how many 'acceptable' designs and logos are sourced and pushed by companies that may literally enable or encourage the equivalent of putting babies on hooks?
This all comes down to what you pay attention to... if your perception is that metal, punk, and hip hop is ruining the world, and petroleum, fast food, and bottled water companies are making the world a better place, that's your choice--and you are always creating your own world.
Interesting. No one is saying any of those bands are ruining the world. I don't remember stating anything of that sort or anyone else for that matter. Just that they are just a band nothing more, nothing less. So, having a disgusting image is cool because it is for a band? Just don't see it. If you have taken care of sick babies the way I have your perception may be different on how you would view an image of a child. Also, if you have to turn your shirt inside out because it may be offensive to some, maybe it isn't worth wearing. Just saying.
i guess i wont post a pic of the Cannibal Corpse shirt we printed yesterday - its a 4 color - printed on a 2003 10 color gauntlet with 36x42 M3 frames onto anvil 976 using action engineering "all over supreme" platens. sure the print isnt for everyone, but it pays the bills.
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I can see the mindset here, but how many 'acceptable' designs and logos are sourced and pushed by companies that may literally enable or encourage the equivalent of putting babies on hooks?
This all comes down to what you pay attention to... if your perception is that metal, punk, and hip hop is ruining the world, and petroleum, fast food, and bottled water companies are making the world a better place, that's your choice--and you are always creating your own world.
Interesting. No one is saying any of those bands are ruining the world. I don't remember stating anything of that sort or anyone else for that matter. Just that they are just a band nothing more, nothing less. So, having a disgusting image is cool because it is for a band? Just don't see it. If you have taken care of sick babies the way I have your perception may be different on how you would view an image of a child. Also, if you have to turn your shirt inside out because it may be offensive to some, maybe it isn't worth wearing. Just saying.
Having been a weekend warrior musician since the mid Sixties, it always amazes me how full of themselves so many self described musicians are, as though they have some kind of answers, when they are usually pretty ignorant, even in there own field of music. Most of the rockers I've met can only do what they know, and can't step outside there self-made box. Imagine a visual artist that doesn't know what Red or Blue is. Yet these "artists" somehow have carte blanche to offend everyone else's stupid sensibilities. Damn, this thread has put me into an ugly place...
Steve
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One word Steve, "marketing"
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Steve that is true for a lot of bands but not all of them.
Take a band like Helmet (granted, not one of my favorites or overly offensive (if any)). They play some pretty mindless "heavy rock" (some might call it "metal")... but are all graduated jazz majors.
I know plenty of rock musicians that have an insane amount of musical knowledge, from counter point melody to jazz comp. Yet when done with their schooling they just go crank out some buck cherry esque "stupid rock".
One of my friends once would make random dots on a fret board and then learn that as a scale and then when he wanted some off the wall sounding stuff to play over something he would use that "scale". You would listen in awe as the beautiful noise that came out made no sense but at the same time made all the sense in the world when he played.
Then there are groups like Slayer that had to take guitar lessons just to even learn what they were already playing at an arena level because they were completely clueless and just knew how to "market" (like andy said) to a bunch of ignorant kids.
One of my favorite bands is Faith No More... many times on B-Sides or whatever you will find songs in "off genres" that seem to be there just for the sake of saying "in case you didn't know, we could play this if we wanted to... and play it well."
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One of my favorite bands is Faith No More... many times on B-Sides or whatever you will find songs in "off genres" that seem to be there just for the sake of saying "in case you didn't know, we could play this if we wanted to... and play it well."
What is the digital equivalent of a "B" side? Just a cut that didn't get any air play?
Playing with my "Some Girls" cover yesterday, I once again lamented the loss of a true art form that today's youngsters just will probably not experience, even with the mini-encore of vinyl.
And, btw, I don't have that much jam any more either. ;)
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I think there are obvious moral principles we can apply in these situations, but whether or not we apply them fairly, disinterested in what we have to pecuniarily gain, or justify our actions to make a $ is where the fallen will starts dictating the fallen intellect. I think the real problem here, screenfoo, is that you are a moral relativist.
Come now -- you don't really believe what you said, do you? "You are always creating your own world"??????? "If your pereption..."?????
If that's your position -- the prevalent relativistic, borderline solipsistic one that says that what is right and wrong is created (Protagoras' old adage, "Man is the measure of all things" [as the moderns and postmoderns like to say with such indignation and "Chronological Snobbery" - that's so "ancient" "pre-modern" and "passe") and "different strokes for different folks", etc. etc. -- then don't start badmouthing that Bin Laden was wrong - you can only say you don't like what he did - him being wrong is only "your perception". Don't complain that what the child molesters and human traffickers are doing is really wrong, just something you don't fancy. And, when a thief comes and burns your office down and steals all of your money from your account, don't start whining that he did something - ghasp! wheeze! spit! - "wrong" or "evil" or "un-just" (which is why I also wonder why relativists don't also want to eliminate laws, as laws are merely extensions/conclusions of people's moral positions that are apparently "made up" by some other person, so they're not applicable to me) - for, you've precluded the possibility for such reality; you and he just differ on your "created worlds." OOhh ooh , can I be your banker or investor - I bet I can show you you don't believe moral truths are "created" -- that you really do believe in right and wrong? As Aristotle made clear thousands of years ago in his Nichomachean Ethics, you can think relativism, but you can't live it. Moreover, only if you believe in moral absolutes (i.e., we are NOT creating our own world), can you call something wrong and ban it and not any of this silly, childish "what's right for you is not necessarily right for me" rubbish. That's why moral absolutes provide for progress and why moral relativism is a stuck-in-the-mud regressive philosophy. Your position reminds me of a childish, little man named Josef Stalin, who needed nothing short of a good whuppin'. His world -- one that I certainly want no part of -- is one that you would have to permit, since who are we to impose our values on anyone else's "created world," since that's all we are doing -- not discovering and abiding by moral truths, but simply "creating values" or "transvaluating values" (Nietzsche, another philosophical wimp, would be so proud!) in our created worlds? (It would also do well to check out the 1st chapter of C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity on how this very discussion you're having here, defending a moral relativistic worldview of "creating your own world" (obviously by it you mean "moral world" given the context), is self-contradictory, not just in practice, but in theory as well)... On to Messieur Stalin:
"Everything I have said and done in these last years is relativism by intuition.... If relativism signifies contempt for fixed categories and men who claim to be the bearers of an objective, immortal truth... then there is nothing more relativistic than fascistic attitudes and activity. From the fact that all ideologies are of equal value, that all ideologies are mere fictions, the modern relativist infers that everybody has the right to create for himself his own ideology and to attempt to enforce it with all the energy of which he is capable" (From Mussolini's Diuturna, 374-77).
Peace out homie.
I only made a statement--to make another, I've read Ayn Rand too, but I found her 'theories' to be unusually far from fact even while claiming to be the only fact--no matter how she presents them.
I'll keep it short and quote Jimi--"It's all in your mind" ;D
And truly, I'm not trying to say musicians are all that great--didn't mean to come off like that, but seems like there are groups that would have you think musicians are doing much worse things than anyone else is capable of... Seems odd to me.
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One of my friends once would make random dots on a fret board and then learn that as a scale and then when he wanted some off the wall sounding stuff to play over something he would use that "scale". You would listen in awe as the beautiful noise that came out made no sense but at the same time made all the sense in the world when he played.
I cant wrap my head around this Kevin, while I am not an overly talented musician I am capable in several instruments and quite proficient in reading music and understanding musical theory. But when you play random notes all over the fret board it is and will be out of key completely, so how on earth can this be made to sound good?
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One of my favorite bands is Faith No More... many times on B-Sides or whatever you will find songs in "off genres" that seem to be there just for the sake of saying "in case you didn't know, we could play this if we wanted to... and play it well."
What is the digital equivalent of a "B" side? Just a cut that didn't get any air play?
Playing with my "Some Girls" cover yesterday, I once again lamented the loss of a true art form that today's youngsters just will probably not experience, even with the mini-encore of vinyl.
And, btw, I don't have that much jam any more either. ;)
I'm not that young... there were "singles" released on cd's as well as EP's and such that didn't "hit the charts".
To answer your question more directly, I think bands put out songs that aren't on the "album".
BTW, that record cleaning vid I posted a while back was found because I came across a DIY "burn" your own vinyl video. ;)
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i guess i wont post a pic of the Cannibal Corpse shirt we printed yesterday - its a 4 color - printed on a 2003 10 color gauntlet with 36x42 M3 frames onto anvil 976 using action engineering "all over supreme" platens. sure the print isnt for everyone, but it pays the bills.
Those guys still play??? Those shirts are not for everyone to see (If they did not change in last 15-20 years, and I doubt that:))
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One of my friends once would make random dots on a fret board and then learn that as a scale and then when he wanted some off the wall sounding stuff to play over something he would use that "scale". You would listen in awe as the beautiful noise that came out made no sense but at the same time made all the sense in the world when he played.
I cant wrap my head around this Kevin, while I am not an overly talented musician I am capable in several instruments and quite proficient in reading music and understanding musical theory. But when you play random notes all over the fret board it is and will be out of key completely, so how on earth can this be made to sound good?
And that is the genius of his playing. I don't think you could give that "scale" to just anyone and have them play it and it sound good. But when put in the right context at the right moment... and over the right piece of music, it "worked".
Again, it also wasn't meant to sound like traditional music or "solo'ing"... it was meant to be off... but it was off in a uniformed manner that made sense.
Think of NIN, Downward Spiral... I can't remember the track but he went in the other room put on the headphones and started sound checking the drums by just kind randomly wailing on them. He then decided to keep it. It sounds very odd but it works.
The drum "solo" on 46 and 2 by Tool has a similar odd feel that puts you off but comes together in the end.
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Your examples still follow keys for the most part. I know where you are coming from just listen to Dub Step. It is as random as can be but yet appealing to some my self included.
The thing that throws me is let say your buddy is playing random notes falling out of key but the back ground music lets say the base is on key it should sound terrible, just like hitting two notes out of key at the same time blah!
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What is the digital equivalent of a "B" side? Just a cut that didn't get any air play?
Playing with my "Some Girls" cover yesterday, I once again lamented the loss of a true art form that today's youngsters just will probably not experience, even with the mini-encore of vinyl.
And, btw, I don't have that much jam any more either. ;)
I'm not that young... there were "singles" released on cd's as well as EP's and such that didn't "hit the charts".
To answer your question more directly, I think bands put out songs that aren't on the "album".
BTW, that record cleaning vid I posted a while back was found because I came across a DIY "burn" your own vinyl video. ;)
I am a somewhat literal guy. The last B "sides" I saw were rather clumsy cassettes with, literally one song on the "A" side, and one on the "B".
Just as "typing" is an archaic term today with very few of us using typewriters, so is "side", for the most part.
Now, if the new generation of music fans so dubs them, fine. I rely on you young'uns (and not-so-young'uns) for that, as I am much out of the loop on today's terminology.
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i guess i wont post a pic of the Cannibal Corpse shirt we printed yesterday - its a 4 color - printed on a 2003 10 color gauntlet with 36x42 M3 frames onto anvil 976 using action engineering "all over supreme" platens. sure the print isnt for everyone, but it pays the bills.
Those guys still play??? Those shirts are not for everyone to see (If they did not change in last 15-20 years, and I doubt that:))
their website shows a bunch of 2012 tour dates, although the shirts that we printed yesterday were for retail...
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Zeko,
I love that art on the NETHERWORLD PUMPKIN CARVER.
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Zeko,
I love that art on the NETHERWORLD PUMPKIN CARVER.
Our own artist - John Huff created that one. i hear he carved an actual pumpkin this year - ill ask him for a pic.
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Your examples still follow keys for the most part. I know where you are coming from just listen to Dub Step. It is as random as can be but yet appealing to some my self included.
The thing that throws me is let say your buddy is playing random notes falling out of key but the back ground music lets say the base is on key it should sound terrible, just like hitting two notes out of key at the same time blah!
No one said he was playing a minor 2nd to the current notes.
Look at a blues scale, it uses the tri-tone and that is what makes it "blue"... but played incorrectly and it sounds atrocious.
Or the Melodic Minor scale. Ascending it contains a flatted 6th and 7th when descending... these are "technically" out of key by "traditional" standards... yet jazz musicians have been "making them work" for years.
My buddy Chris just took it to the HNL (Hole... Nudder... Level!)
What was really insane is he would finger tap to this "scale".... loop it and the shift up and tap a "harmony" on top of it. Beautiful chaos.
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Steve that is true for a lot of bands but not all of them.
Take a band like Helmet (granted, not one of my favorites or overly offensive (if any)). They play some pretty mindless "heavy rock" (some might call it "metal")... but are all graduated jazz majors.
I know plenty of rock musicians that have an insane amount of musical knowledge, from counter point melody to jazz comp. Yet when done with their schooling they just go crank out some buck cherry esque "stupid rock".
One of my friends once would make random dots on a fret board and then learn that as a scale and then when he wanted some off the wall sounding stuff to play over something he would use that "scale". You would listen in awe as the beautiful noise that came out made no sense but at the same time made all the sense in the world when he played.
Then there are groups like Slayer that had to take guitar lessons just to even learn what they were already playing at an arena level because they were completely clueless and just knew how to "market" (like andy said) to a bunch of ignorant kids.
One of my favorite bands is Faith No More... many times on B-Sides or whatever you will find songs in "off genres" that seem to be there just for the sake of saying "in case you didn't know, we could play this if we wanted to... and play it well."
Didn't get a chance to get back to this the other day... I did say "most of the rockers I know", it's not a blanket statement. Obviously, there are players who know their stuff and choose to play whatever. I have friends who play real classical guitar, and metal, my point is that they are credible, knowledgeable craftspeople, who can play by ear, or read. In other words, they did their homework.
One of my friends once would make random dots on a fret board and then learn that as a scale and then when he wanted some off the wall sounding stuff to play over something he would use that "scale". You would listen in awe as the beautiful noise that came out made no sense but at the same time made all the sense in the world when he played.
I cant wrap my head around this Kevin, while I am not an overly talented musician I am capable in several instruments and quite proficient in reading music and understanding musical theory. But when you play random notes all over the fret board it is and will be out of key completely, so how on earth can this be made to sound good?
And that is the genius of his playing. I don't think you could give that "scale" to just anyone and have them play it and it sound good. But when put in the right context at the right moment... and over the right piece of music, it "worked".
Again, it also wasn't meant to sound like traditional music or "solo'ing"... it was meant to be off... but it was off in a uniformed manner that made sense.
Think of NIN, Downward Spiral... I can't remember the track but he went in the other room put on the headphones and started sound checking the drums by just kind randomly wailing on them. He then decided to keep it. It sounds very odd but it works.
The drum "solo" on 46 and 2 by Tool has a similar odd feel that puts you off but comes together in the end.