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screen printing => Waterbase and Discharge => Topic started by: jasonl on November 01, 2012, 10:55:49 PM
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Havent passed a verdict yet, need to play more. Here is what we did today, white looks AWESOME and this has been washed.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/jlansdell/ccihvp.jpg)
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I have done a few jobs with them and they work good. Easy to mix I have yet to use a mixer and get smooth colors every time. I have mixed a few colors that didn't turn out perfect but they were very close to close enough. I know they have changed the pigment load in the Rubin red since I got my kit so yours may be more color accurate then mine. Let me know any pantone colors you have tried and work out. I am trying to get some standard colors worked out.
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I would like your input aswell, I tried for hours yesterday to get a good 185 red, no luck.
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Try backing off on the activator
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Thats 6%, what do you recommend?
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Sericol red calls for 4.5% activator
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Try 3
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And bump your pigment load up a bit.
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So I just spoke with a CCI rep and will be soon purchasing the pigment kit (for those interested here are the prices I was quoted):
$75 for 8 oz each of the 14 concentrates
$90 for the above plus a gallon of the Base
He said that they do not offer any PMS matching system so my question to you guys is how do you mix in order to achieve particular colors. Are you using the Matsui color matching system (if their concentrates are similar to CCI) or will the discharged shirt look similar to the base/pigment mix before going to press (assuming that you add the right amount of activator). I am sure there is a lot more to this because different shirts (brand and color) discharge differently but being that this is new to me I am not even sure where to start in order to start experimenting and honing in on what works for us.
I will now sit back and learn from the gurus!
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the CCI PMS color matching system is the formulas in your pantone book.
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...I was told by our rep that the formulas in the PMS book itself (the recipe under each square) are how you mix colors, which i thought was excellent and one of the big sell points of the system. Unless that changed, you may wanna double-check with your rep.
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Did that yellow hit the mark you were looking for?
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Correct use the % in the Pantone book. Apparently CCI has matched the Pantone ink colors such as Rubine, Rhodomine, Reflex, Trans white etc. I mentally raised an eyebrow when I was told this but in either case, expect to tweak them here and there.
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Did that yellow hit the mark you were looking for?
Interested as well. I haven't dug into it real hard yet but sericol yellows are oh so close, but not quite there. I was considering the CCI pigs simply for boosting and mixing any colors we can't nail with the texcharge.
Is it par for the course to go down to 4-5% activator on yellows as well? That was going to be my next move.
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We have done our yellows at 4-5 on the texcharge. I did it at 7% and it went a little on the green tint side. We have not done a ton of yellows though.
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I did a blue and yellow with the CCI kit and it was as dead nuts as I think you can get. I did it on a white shirt and on a black shirt and the color was almost exact. I know they are still tweaking the system but so far its good enough for my needs.
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The yellow was close, but not really what I wanted. I spent Wednesday with the sericol rep here in my shop, but havent had lots of time to play with all the texcharge stuff. I spent 4 hours with Gary from CCI yesterday printing the above sample with the pigment system and I have to admit, my samples that I did solo from Sericol IMO are a bit better. ONLY, because I havent played around with the CCI stuff enough I am guessing. Tony, Gary had a Hines Ward shirt that you did that was pretty awesome, how did you do it?
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Ican't remember what it looked like. Maybe it wasn't mine.
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I'm not super concerned about dead nuts pantones just want a real solid yellow green shade as a go to.
I suspect that most of that green tinting comes from the fact that most of the yellows we ran went down on black and just a touch of black, such as the black background the shirt may provide will push the green up in a yellow gs. I know this from mixing ink so I figure it can be solved with more penetration on the yellows on black.
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A dot or two of scarlet red PC can fight the greening
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A dot or two of scarlet red PC can fight the greening
Thanks for the tip. Will be trying that out on the next one.
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I was a little dissapointed with our first try with the CCI pigments. We were trying to hit a 1235 C. Followed the pantone guide -but it needed alot more of warm red . Maybe it was "burning off" in the dryer.
And honestly the color was Dull compaired to the matsui, However I will play with it over the next month, and see whats what.
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I was a little dissapointed with our first try with the CCI pigments. We were trying to hit a 1235 C. Followed the pantone guide -but it needed alot more of warm red . Maybe it was "burning off" in the dryer.
And honestly the color was Dull compaired to the matsui, However I will play with it over the next month, and see whats what.
How old are your pigments. I have the first version...and teh reds are all weak. I have to add about 50% more to the mix to hit the color. I know they have fixed the red by now so its not an issue for new ordered pigments.
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Also, did you lower the activator % to around 4% or so? Makes a big difference in reds.
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One thing I noticed with one red that I did it just was orange in the bucket. So If that happens you have to add more of the red pigment. If the color in the bucket is not the right color it will not change to a better red in the dryer. Make sure your formula is correct also. Its 10 percent pigment to 90 percent base.
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I had Tad from CCI in the shop last week. I got a copy of his mixing software (still in beta) through Ryonet.
Mixed up pms 7641, a real nice deep red. Looked great, printed great, washed it twice and noticed some wash out :( The white we printed with it was perfect under a loop (for thread color). Another local guy mixed up pms 168 or 166 (I forgot exact number) today and compared it to Rutlands mix. The CCI color matched better than Rutland, but at only a 10% pigment load it had some bad crocking issues. I would love to know if there was a hiccup in the base chemistry as Tad was insistent that we did not need to add anything to the base as it was all included during manufacture. It was a key selling point for him.
As for going up or down on activator %, make sure you do a test on each garment type with a clear discharge to make sure that percent of activator removes enough of the shirt color :)
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I was a little dissapointed with our first try with the CCI pigments. We were trying to hit a 1235 C. Followed the pantone guide -but it needed alot more of warm red . Maybe it was "burning off" in the dryer.
And honestly the color was Dull compaired to the matsui, However I will play with it over the next month, and see whats what.
How old are your pigments. I have the first version...and teh reds are all weak. I have to add about 50% more to the mix to hit the color. I know they have fixed the red by now so its not an issue for new ordered pigments.
brand new pigments - yes sir - weak red. I added more activactor this morning --started at 4 percent - bumped it up to 6 percent - seemed to help a good bit. - But i am dissapointed with the weak red - oh well
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We use CCI pigments with 4% activator except straight white we use 6%. If your red is weak, I'd suggest 4% activator and overloading your pigment. Here's our red we get from the most up to date CCI pigments. We found that 6% activator (as suggested by our CCI rep) actually pastels colors and dulls them way out.
Edit: Although we make a lot of our colors based on the Pantone book %s, we DO NOT make our red that way. We created, painstakingly, a proprietary recipe for our rich red.
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You guys overloading your CCI reds- how are the prints coming out after wash testing and how much are you overloading?
I know CCI has 30% as the ceiling in their lit which is pretty high.
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nice red. I am not going to ask the formula. I know what it means to painstakenly work on a pantone color. All the pantones I have mixed are very close. But with a few mins of tweaking them they are dead nuts. I only need the formulas to be close. Then I can tweak them to the brand, color and fabric of the shirt.
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Nice red! Looks like our 606 (our#) red. When we did our original formulas no pantone formulas existed. Most of my formulas contain 2-3 pigments. I know this will come across as bragging and it is.......all the ink companies instructed printers to activate everything by 6% or it wouldn't work. I was the one who informed them that this actually compromises some colors.
I said it!
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Nice red! Looks like our 606 (our#) red. When we did our original formulas no pantone formulas existed. Most of my formulas contain 2-3 pigments. I know this will come across as bragging and it is.......all the ink companies instructed printers to activate everything by 6% or it wouldn't work. I was the one who informed them that this actually compromises some colors.
I said it!
Tony I hear you also came up with the name RED for the color we now call red. That was a long time ago I'm sure no one remembers. :) :) :)
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I also invented Blue! :)
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I also invented Blue! :)
Blue is some of the best work I have ever seen. I even use the blue as one of my company colors. Great job on that one.
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"Blue" in my logo too, royalty cheque in the mail...
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secrets are coming out ;)
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You guys overloading your CCI reds- how are the prints coming out after wash testing and how much are you overloading?
I know CCI has 30% as the ceiling in their lit which is pretty high.
The wash testing we did when we first developed our red showed almost no change. Believe me, after wash number five, I was overjoyed when it was still a rich red. We overload the pigments by about 2x. We have 3 different reds and they vary slightly. Way less than 30% though. That'd be some luxury DC dumping all that pigment in!
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You guys overloading your CCI reds- how are the prints coming out after wash testing and how much are you overloading?
I know CCI has 30% as the ceiling in their lit which is pretty high.
The wash testing we did when we first developed our red showed almost no change. Believe me, after wash number five, I was overjoyed when it was still a rich red. We overload the pigments by about 2x. We have 3 different reds and they vary slightly. Way less than 30% though. That'd be some luxury DC dumping all that pigment in!
Does that mean 20 percent pigment load and 80 percent base? I did a 15 percent red and it was real nice. I would love to see that red of yours in person. It looks real good.
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You guys overloading your CCI reds- how are the prints coming out after wash testing and how much are you overloading?
I know CCI has 30% as the ceiling in their lit which is pretty high.
The wash testing we did when we first developed our red showed almost no change. Believe me, after wash number five, I was overjoyed when it was still a rich red. We overload the pigments by about 2x. We have 3 different reds and they vary slightly. Way less than 30% though. That'd be some luxury DC dumping all that pigment in!
Awesome. Sounds like they have the base dialed well with the pigments then. We use a PC system for plastisol and almost all colors we mix are at max pigment, just the way we roll most of the time. I only back it off or extend it the max pig mix out when it's frustrating wow printing or overkill such as on lights.
I have our set sitting on the ink table still unopened, looking forward to the next DC run that calls for a pigment boost so I can see how they play with the Texcharge.