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screen printing => Ink and Chemicals => Topic started by: shellyky on November 10, 2012, 08:40:05 AM
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Funny stuff!
I'm just shy of 2 years in to WB and Discharge, and I can tell you that every step is more time consuming and expensive than plastisol. And if you are a "manual" printer, there is some extra "stuff" you have to learn, but hang in there. You've come to the right place.
It can seem overwhelming and some shirts just don't work right, no matter what you do. You'll have to test. I try to get the sales staff to tell the custy that the colors are more subtle (although not much and with some colors not at all) and there is more variation with the shirts. And if ordering various colored shirts all with the same design, they will have to accept even more deviation.
When ordering shirts I try to get the girls to order 100% cotton tees with these 3 items stressed to the vendor: 1) Shirts in all sizes from the same country of origin, 2) reactive dyes, and 3) no overdyed items. That is mostly a pipe dream cause the staff doesn't always do it, and the vendors don't usually know or even pay attention to the request. But a big part of why I want to do that, is to educate the vendors. After a while you can tell what will discharge well and what won't. You'll develop some colors of ink that you like, and learn what percent of activator will give you the results you want. But it's harder.....
You could PM me and I *might* be able to talk you down from the ledge on an item or two. But mostly, just just have to poke around with google....like with most stuff you want to learn.
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If a dim wit like me can figure it out I'm sure you guys can. I will admit we did tons of reserch and testing and still a little uneasy with it but feeling better each time. We found the info here and from the mfg to be invaluable. Still and always will have lots to learn. Now find myself when printing plastisol thinking how much easeier and better the job would have been using the wb and discharge instead and why we didn't try this sooner.
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<snip>Now find myself when printing plastisol thinking how much easeier and better the job would have been using the wb and discharge instead and why we didn't try this sooner.<snip>
Me too! I wish it worked on everything, but alas....
I just ran 100 one color bright green discharge on 100 black Gildans (NEARLY FLUORESCENT level of brightness) with 1 screen on Thurdsay. I'm always thinking how much easier that is given the fact you don't have to underbase it. One screen, slam bam boom, box 'em up. No flash, no registration, better feel, nearly equal washability. MIGHT have been Royal Blue, Kelly Green, Kansas State Football Purple (yippee!!), or 50/50 blends---and it's probably a no-go. But we sell a lot of black Gildans, and those nearly always are gonna work.
@ShellyKY don't give up. It's worth the trouble to learn it. And custys will request it, once they "know", setting you apart from most of your local competition. PARTICULARLY on a big print with lots of coverage, it is clearly more comfortable to wear....just like your most favorite-ist saturday ugly-shoes. But you WILL have to tinker, no doubt about it. It took me a months to get a really great red.
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We are so lazy haven't even tried it past the first time yet still.
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I've been throwing a discharge print in from time to time. The white discharge on black gildans have really turned out great. I've tried the pigments and haven't been truly satisfied yet, but I think that's more user error than anything else. My problem is figuring out the temp and dwell time in the dryer. I have a mini sprint with an 8 ft chamber and have been running them through at 1 minute and 45 seconds at 355 degrees. I don't know if I should lower the temp and dwell longer or vice versa, I guess trial and error will get it right.
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Just tried discharge today WOW so easy I lOVE IT!!! see video from today
Discharge screen print (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDEqvjfN6PI#)
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I've tried to do my best to encapsulate what all goes into this (it really is not difficult at all) but it will have to wait till April/May issue of PW or do a search here
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I've tried to do my best to encapsulate what all goes into this (it really is not difficult at all) but it will have to wait till April/May issue of PW or do a search here
can't wait!!
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Brandt, that is one unhappy kitty. Wicked funny. Shelly, you'll be fine, sounds like you're thinking too much. Try it without too many expectations, and work on it from there. Our first try, way back, was a simple white, then a 3 color, then DC underbase with plastisols on top. Not that hard, really. If it doesn't work, that's when you need to get into the science more, but try simple first...
Steve
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I've been throwing a discharge print in from time to time. The white discharge on black gildans have really turned out great. I've tried the pigments and haven't been truly satisfied yet, but I think that's more user error than anything else. My problem is figuring out the temp and dwell time in the dryer. I have a mini sprint with an 8 ft chamber and have been running them through at 1 minute and 45 seconds at 355 degrees. I don't know if I should lower the temp and dwell longer or vice versa, I guess trial and error will get it right.
Wash test for color fastness. That sounds like a pretty short dwell time to me.
I've been testing a waterbased foil adhesive from Jantex with discharge or waterbased background colors. I messed up one print for a custy last week and washed it, knowing it was undercured. Long story short, the black WB Matsui 301 Base background image was NOT fully cured and it washed out UN-BELIEVABLY! for one wash/dry cycle.
Dried does NOT equal cured, and you can't tell the difference by feel.
CORRECTION, that was CCI Premium D-Base with Matsui PC Black Pigment.
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Hang in there and trust me and everyone else on here that once you get it down the amount of time you save on most jobs is amazing. And in our area it puts us ahead of a lot of much bigger shops even as they don't offer it. Don't give up! Just dedicate a solid weekend and a box of shirts to the screen printing gods for learning and it will pay off.
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I've been throwing a discharge print in from time to time. The white discharge on black gildans have really turned out great. I've tried the pigments and haven't been truly satisfied yet, but I think that's more user error than anything else. My problem is figuring out the temp and dwell time in the dryer. I have a mini sprint with an 8 ft chamber and have been running them through at 1 minute and 45 seconds at 355 degrees. I don't know if I should lower the temp and dwell longer or vice versa, I guess trial and error will get it right.
Wash test for color fastness. That sounds like a pretty short dwell time to me.
I've been testing a waterbased foil adhesive from Jantex with discharge or waterbased background colors. I messed up one print for a custy last week and washed it, knowing it was undercured. Long story short, the black WB Matsui 301 Base background image was NOT fully cured and it washed out UN-BELIEVABLY! for one wash/dry cycle.
Dried does NOT equal cured, and you can't tell the difference by feel.
CORRECTION, that was CCI Premium D-Base with Matsui PC Black Pigment.
Thanks for the advice. I'll try a longer dwell to see if that helps. The Ryonet discharge says that it cures in 60 to 90 seconds, but I just don't think they are coming out as vibrant as I would like.
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I've been throwing a discharge print in from time to time. The white discharge on black gildans have really turned out great. I've tried the pigments and haven't been truly satisfied yet, but I think that's more user error than anything else. My problem is figuring out the temp and dwell time in the dryer. I have a mini sprint with an 8 ft chamber and have been running them through at 1 minute and 45 seconds at 355 degrees. I don't know if I should lower the temp and dwell longer or vice versa, I guess trial and error will get it right.
Wash test for color fastness. That sounds like a pretty short dwell time to me.
I've been testing a waterbased foil adhesive from Jantex with discharge or waterbased background colors. I messed up one print for a custy last week and washed it, knowing it was undercured. Long story short, the black WB Matsui 301 Base background image was NOT fully cured and it washed out UN-BELIEVABLY! for one wash/dry cycle.
Dried does NOT equal cured, and you can't tell the difference by feel.
CORRECTION, that was CCI Premium D-Base with Matsui PC Black Pigment.
Thanks for the advice. I'll try a longer dwell to see if that helps. The Ryonet discharge says that it cures in 60 to 90 seconds, but I just don't think they are coming out as vibrant as I would like.
Does Ryonet's cure time take the type of dryer into consideration? All infra-red isn't the most efficient way to dry these, a gas dryer, with convection is much better, imho...
Steve
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Does Ryonet's cure time take the type of dryer into consideration? All infra-red isn't the most efficient way to dry these, a gas dryer, with convection is much better, imho...
Steve
I have no idea about Ryonet's recommendations, but they need to be considered just rough guidelines, and FAR inferior to wash testing. One of the best things I did was buying a washer and dryer and installing them in our back-shop. (Craigslist, about $300.00) Do some experimenting.
If waterbased and discharged fades out after test washing more than say..... 1-2%, your shirt is undercured. And yes, I have an infrared and I continually am walking a tight rope, between undercuring and scorching--since my chamber is only 6' of heat. I'm a manual shop, so I get by. With an auto, my dryer would just be waaaaaay too short. An infra-red conveyor oven that had 16 feet of heat might be a OK, I dunno. Gas seems to be the preferred dryer for discharge.
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gas is the preferred dryer period...it's made a HUGE difference here.
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What about length? Like how big a drier do YOU have and will it keep up with an auto at full tilt on a discharge job?
It's all about airflow, I've been told. And gas affords that, but I'm not sure how really.
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our drier will not keep up on the auto running at 100%, we could move the shirts around a bit and run it faster, but right now we run at 80% on the auto with discharge. We have a 12 foot heat chamber on the dryer.
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I have a workhorse 5217 dryer. It has 7 feet of heat and a 52 inch belt. I have printed about 400 shirts an hour discharge on it. With the wider belt I can do 2 rows of shirts. My dwell time is 105 seconds. I have done discharge underbases and straight discharge with this set up. I have wash tested about 5 jobs and they look exactly the same after the first and second washes. The dryer is not really force air but it does have a fan inside than moves the air. I know its not the ideal set up but it does work. I am looking in to a gas dryer but not for a year or so.
I have to agree that gas is the way to go the air movement is insane inside one of those.
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Its all about the efficiency of the dryer. Mainly the baffling system. One of my dryers has 20' of heat and can handle two autos wide open with WB. The other three have 12'of heat. In most cases 12 is fine
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Air movement is key to getting the water out; we run 2 Advance TexAir dryers (which might be older than some of our members). Infra red in, gas convection in the middle, and infra red boot in the ass on the way out. They will dry or cure just about anything.
Steve
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Steve, do you have to jack around with dryer settings, for your different inks?
I sure do, and it wears me out. With my infrared only, (6' of heat) I'm continulally fiddling to get waterbased to cure and not scorch---and to run them at a reasonable speed. I yearn to run a dryer with a more forgiving nature.
I know with my discharge, I'm sort of "breaking all the rules" but we all do what we have to do.
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Well we finally got around to playing with this more. Still not right IMO.
Here is what our test looked like, its not white enough for sure flash is fooling you some here. This is 70 Base/30 White / 5% activator. Then tried adding more activator which did bring it a bit brighter. This is all nearly totally eyeballing it since we have no gram scale yet. Clearly doing something wrong.
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Well we finally got around to playing with this more. Still not right IMO.
Here is what our test looked like, its not white enough for sure flash is fooling you some here. This is 70 Base/30 White / 5% activator. Then tried adding more activator which did bring it a bit brighter. This is all nearly totally eyeballing it since we have no gram scale yet. Clearly doing something wrong.
Try 90white/ 10 base. Go get a scale 39 bucks at office depot to get you started.
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This is a job we ran today. 3 color DC, 2 blues and a White. On Port PC61 Ts.
Sorry for the horrible phone pic, no flash.
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Well we finally got around to playing with this more. Still not right IMO.
Here is what our test looked like, its not white enough for sure flash is fooling you some here. This is 70 Base/30 White / 5% activator. Then tried adding more activator which did bring it a bit brighter. This is all nearly totally eyeballing it since we have no gram scale yet. Clearly doing something wrong.
Try 90white/ 10 base. Go get a scale 39 bucks at office depot to get you started.
So less white? It's not white enough, wouldn't that make it worse? (keep in mind im a infant with this discharge stuff)
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(he said 90 white, we used 30 white.)
Also, are these supposed to feel.."dry"...thats the only way i can describe it. its not exactly cracking and brittle but its just dryish texture.
Also #2, is there any problem with stacking these up fresh out the dryer? would the product do anything to the back of the next shirt on top of it?
Also #3, if this isn't fully "cured" this isn't going to bleach anything else in the customer's washing machine is it? No risk because it stops working after 8 hours?
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Are you using the CCI D-white, or Ryonet's version of it? If not, what product are you using?
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1. yes, they will feel dry and stiff but once washed will feel like an unprinted shirt.
2. as long as they are curing in the dryer, shouldnt be any problem with them piling up in the basket.
3. even not fully cured, it wont bleach anything else in anyones machine, just doesnt work like that.
and yeah 30 white/ 70 base will give a tannish white color, more white 80-90 white to 10-20 base will get a brighter white.
still wont be bright bright white like a plastisol but close and much softer once washed.
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Some shirts just don't discharge very well, I found that out while testing shirts with the sales rep one afternoon.
Darryl
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We started with the plasticharge and never liked it, always had a hand and not a brite white. Tried the CCI D-White and never looked back. Even got some greens that were not supposed to discharge well to come out nice and brite. Our biggest hurdle now is the dryer. Like Nick said it will feel stiff until t is worked or washed.
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We started with the plasticharge and never liked it, always had a hand and not a brite white. Tried the CCI D-White and never looked back. Even got some greens that were not supposed to discharge well to come out nice and brite. Our biggest hurdle now is the dryer. Like Nick said it will feel stiff until t is worked or washed.
Rebranded CCI I'm told.
Some shirts just don't discharge very well, I found that out while testing shirts with the sales rep one afternoon.
Darryl
We also tried Gildan Black.
Are you using the CCI D-white, or Ryonet's version of it? If not, what product are you using?
Ryonet's version, said to be just relabeled CCI. No idea though.
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One reason to buy direct from the supplier. No telling what your getting from rebranded inks. Unless you see them pour it in yourself who knows what the hell it is. I would try the 90/10 mix or go 100% ink and see what you get.
Can you smell the discharge agent after the shirt cools?
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I've never based down that white discharge. I'll add some water sometimes but it's just 6% activator directly into the white ink and print. I'm sure the more experienced DC guys will chime in but I always assumed if you wanted DC white, you just added activator to the CCI D-white and got after it, no need to base it down unless you wanted a more muted white or needed to stretch a gallon out a little more. TONY!!!! Where you at?
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just my opinion and whats works for me, but when i use white discharge i do mix about 15% base to it, usually by eye, and a bit of extra binder, mix, then activator. to me the extra base helps the penetration and dye discharge of the shirt, basically, taking more of the dye out of the shirt and making the white thats there appear brighter. again, just what works for me.
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I've never based down that white discharge. I'll add some water sometimes but it's just 6% activator directly into the white ink and print. I'm sure the more experienced DC guys will chime in but I always assumed if you wanted DC white, you just added activator to the CCI D-white and got after it, no need to base it down unless you wanted a more muted white or needed to stretch a gallon out a little more. TONY!!!! Where you at?
Tried that, and it was white. But it was also nearly as heavy as our plastisol prints. I didn't wash it which I do know would make it better, but how much better? I also don't think it was super white either if I remember. Our first test was the CCI White and it was a couple months back. Didn't try straight white this time.
just my opinion and whats works for me, but when i use white discharge i do mix about 15% base to it, usually by eye, and a bit of extra binder, mix, then activator. to me the extra base helps the penetration and dye discharge of the shirt, basically, taking more of the dye out of the shirt and making the white thats there appear brighter. again, just what works for me.
This confuses me even more. Others had said 70/30 80/20 90/10 (Base to white). You are basically saying the opposite correct? 15/85 (Base to white)? What you are saying makes the most sense in my head but again, I am a infant. The 70/30 we tried, wasn't white, it was nearly natural. Which I guess would be fine as a underbase.
Maybe my expectations are too high. Here are a couple things I would hope discharge would help me do....
1. Save a screen, white being bright enough no longer need a underbase and a highlight on black t's with white and other colors in the design. (99% of our work)
2. No more print flash print white on low qty 1 color (white ink) jobs where 2 screens can't be justified. (we do a lot of small orders, so if I don't' have to run 24pcs around twice, that would be great)
I have seen some discharge but generally from suppliers. For all I know they are doing something to make them look brighter than they will actually appear to sell more product. Or I am doing something wrong.
One reason to buy direct from the supplier. No telling what your getting from rebranded inks. Unless you see them pour it in yourself who knows what the hell it is. I would try the 90/10 mix or go 100% ink and see what you get.
Can you smell the discharge agent after the shirt cools?
All I can do is go by what I am told. I am told its re-branded CCI, that came from many people on this board.
90/10 (Base to white)? We did 100% White. Wasn't amazing, but again my expectations may be off.
How about this, anyone wanna send me a shirt they printed with discharge? Happy to pay for the shipping and the shirt. Even retail price for the shirt. It would help if I have something to compare with I guess.
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Ill second Brandt - if anyone wants send me a sample of a bright white they got on a dark shirt (preferably using cci) with one hit and the mixture ratio of what to what, ill cover the costs. We seem to be in the same boat - not knowing what brightness we should be expecting to achieve with white discharge and/or white dc and base mix -- particularly on shirt colors such as reds, blues, purples, in addition to navys and blacks.
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Ill second Brandt - if anyone wants send me a sample of a bright white they got on a dark shirt (preferably using cci) with one hit and the mixture ratio of what to what, ill cover the costs. We seem to be in the same boat - not knowing what brightness we should be expecting to achieve with white discharge and/or white dc and base mix -- particularly on shirt colors such as reds, blues, purples, in addition to navys and blacks.
Exactly, for all I know I am doing it right, but my expectations are too high.
So far I can only imagine this for under base, just because I expect a bright white.
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Ok let me explain. D- base is clear and has binding agents in it.. D- white is white pigment added to clear base. Base is the binding agent that makes the pigment in the ink or that you add stick to the shirt. You did 70 percent clear ink to 30 percent white and expected a bright white. Discharge white will feel like crap until washed. Basing it down a little will help coat all the fibers. This will make the white look brighter since all the viewable fibers have been died.
Discharge white is not white. Compared to quick white its about 7 percent less bright. Depending on the shirt color brand and about 10 other things the brightness will very. Unless your putting the discharged white next to a white sheet of paper it looks bright white on a good discharging shirt and color.
Hope this helps
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Ok let me explain. D- base is clear and has binding agents in it.. D- white is white pigment added to clear base. Base is the binding agent that makes the pigment in the ink or that you add stick to the shirt. You did 70 percent clear ink to 30 percent white and expected a bright white. Discharge white will feel like crap until washed. Basing it down a little will help coat all the fibers. This will make the white look brighter since all the viewable fibers have been died.
Discharge white is not white. Compared to quick white its about 7 percent less bright. Depending on the shirt color brand and about 10 other things the brightness will very. Unless your putting the discharged white next to a white sheet of paper it looks bright white on a good discharging shirt and color.
Hope this helps
I did 70/30 because that was what was side to do on another thread. The time before that I ran straight white and it was white yes, not super crazy white but yes felt like crap yes. Never test washed it because it also didn't look that amazing. Again it may be my expectations.
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If wash a discharge print you will not be able to feel the print. Even that thick crappy white. discharge has its place. Not for every customer.
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If wash a discharge print you will not be able to feel the print. Even that thick crappy white. discharge has its place. Not for every customer.
Which is still super confusing to me as well. How does ink on top of this "crust" not end up also washing away when the "crust" washes away"
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Your basically removing the pigment and replacing it with another. The "crusty residu" is excess pigment lying on top of the fibers. The plastisol is lying on the fibers, discharge penetrates the fibers hence why you can not discharge syenthitcs. We found the key to be more pressure pushing the discharge into the fibers the better the results.
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I see a lot of discussion about the mixing of a high opacity white and base, there has been some previous mention of adding water but not in the follow up posts.
While I'm using magna and not CCI and I print on a manual through a relatively high mesh (230) with a lot of detail, I have found that adding 5% water has really helped me to get a better saturation and actually a brighter white. Though nothing beats a big ass solid layer of white plastisol. I started out using the recomended activator % and base or HO white mix with no water. Was really surprised in the difference between the Magna superwhite without water and with. Printed much better. Saturated more and had a much less chalky feel to the end print. The image was whiter too, as the underlying black (on a gildan black) discharged more and the weave was less apparent. I had to hit it twice on my manual with hard pressure.
So maybe this doesn't apply. but I saw on a number of earlier DC posts that 5% water was a good thing and I must say that it even reduced my pick up and the threads don't show nearly as much.
I'm still getting used to this dc stuff. looking forward to playing with the activator % ala Tony. Also picking up a Matsui Spot black WB to augment my DC inks. Just thought I might mention how much improvement there was for me with a little water added. I used distilled water. Is that necessary? Hell if I know! But the local water is nasty. The manufacturers recommendations are mere guidelines... :)
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Ok let me explain. D- base is clear and has binding agents in it.. D- white is white pigment added to clear base. Base is the binding agent that makes the pigment in the ink or that you add stick to the shirt. You did 70 percent clear ink to 30 percent white and expected a bright white. Discharge white will feel like crap until washed. Basing it down a little will help coat all the fibers. This will make the white look brighter since all the viewable fibers have been died.
Discharge white is not white. Compared to quick white its about 7 percent less bright. Depending on the shirt color brand and about 10 other things the brightness will very. Unless your putting the discharged white next to a white sheet of paper it looks bright white on a good discharging shirt and color.
Hope this helps
I did 70/30 because that was what was side to do on another thread. The time before that I ran straight white and it was white yes, not super crazy white but yes felt like crap yes. Never test washed it because it also didn't look that amazing. Again it may be my expectations.
i can kinda see where some of your confusion comes from. when using discharge as an underbase for plastisol, 70 base to 30 white would be ok. being as the idea then is to base the design, but with little enough pigment so the "wash away" of the crusty part doesnt take the plastisol with it.
and yeah ill second the mention of discharge white not equalling a bright plastisol white, its jsut not going to be the same. close but not the same. but certainly take the crusty 100% white print and wash it, to see the soft hand afterwards and to see the resulting brightness also.
and yes, some customers wont find the white bright enough as a stand alone. good example being metal mulisha prints. a lot of discharge greys and colors on darks with white plastisol for the whites.
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The 70/30 white to base mixture talk I think was mainly for when you're going to print plastisol on top the way I remember talking about it. But when you're printing that CCI d white, just add your activator and get after it. Now if you want to start playing with that same ink as an underbase with plastisol on top, then you can start adding a base and working the ratios a little bit to get the best look and feel. But don't do what I did and print straight CCI d white as an underbase and plastisol on top...not good. I'll print some discharge stuff tomorrow for the class and send y'all the sample prints unwashed then you can see what we get. I'll do a CCI d white and maybe a red or yellow sericol texcharge print on black and then a few medium to light test tubes.
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Alan that would be awesome of you.
Graphic Disorder
2210 Eddie Williams Rd. Suite 1
Johnson City, TN 37601
Happy to pay.
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Brandt, I didn't notice if anyone already posted this or not, but get yourself a damn scale! You're not usually one to pinch pennies, and you are now involved with a chemistry that is not going to give consistent results mixing by eye.
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Brandt, I didn't notice if anyone already posted this or not, but get yourself a damn scale! You're not usually one to pinch pennies, and you are now involved with a chemistry that is not going to give consistent results mixing by eye.
For sure, but I am not investing in one of those until I am certain what my expectations are and what they should be line up with reality. Again for all I know we have already done it right and my expectations where off.
So far I don't see us using discharge, and yes that is probably because something I am doing isn't right. So I need to see some other peoples final products and maybe I can be swayed into giving it another shot. At which time I will buy a scale.
Looking forward to some examples I have a couple PM's of people sending me some and Alan is going to as well.
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Brandt, I didn't notice if anyone already posted this or not, but get yourself a damn scale! You're not usually one to pinch pennies, and you are now involved with a chemistry that is not going to give consistent results mixing by eye.
we have a scale, its just not in grams, it's in tenths of ounces lol so yes the numbers were correct according to the calculator but i assume not as accurate and not as easy to calculate proportions...it worked for now.
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I don't know how small the smallest quantity that you weighed was, but it sounds like you are weighing almost three grams(2.8 ) as your smallest reading.
If you are doing batches by the pound, that may be fine as your smallest amount of 5% of a lb is .8 oz, easily within your reading range.
It's just when someone reports trouble in this area, accuracy in proportions is the first place to check.
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I don't know how small the smallest quantity that you weighed was, but it sounds like you are weighing almost three grams(2.8) as your smallest reading.
If you are doing batches by the pound, that may be fine as your smallest amount of 5% of a lb is .8 oz, easily within your reading range.
It's just when someone reports trouble in this area, accuracy in proportions is the first place to check.
Our scale read down to .1oz. So we where good. I think our measurements where close. I am sure a higher dollar scale would be more accurate though. I don't think our mixing is our issue. I think it was my expectations more than anything.
I wasn't that impressed so far, so it became "what are others doing" or more importantly "let me see/feel/touch others prints" so I have a base line. We have some stuff she did in Vastex class once and we have put our hands on some stuff from suppliers awhile back but I question some of that stuff as well. I need to see some other real world prints, not something from a supplier trying to get me to buy something.
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We are going to print the discharge stuff after our lunch break, we are going to do a CCI d white print with a fairly open area design and I'll probably use a different design for the sericol red.
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Get
a
scale .
...that reads at least to tenths of grams.
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Get
a
scale .
...that reads at least to tenths of grams.
As I said, I will if I see a sample that I see a reason to bother with it....
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I don't even print discharge but from what I have read over the years and the recommendations from people like Tony 1/10 of an ounce is not accurate enough to even test with. Especially if mixing a small amount to test run. There is 28 grams in an ounce and one tenth of an ounce is in the neighbor hood of two grams, and the pros all seem to measure to the accuracy of a half or so gram maybe even less.
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That is correct. However, you have a minimum mix of 300-500g with discharge, depending, to ensure there is enough ink in the screen. Our Sartorius does well enough at tenths but a small scale to hundredths would be a must for a big formula testing project. That or waste a lot of ink.
Brandt, seriously, get a scale. You can use it for plastisol too. You are just going to chase yer trail without a consistent way to record mixes.
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fyi it doesn't have to be a 300+ dollar scale
we have 2 scales, one that does 1/10 of a gram and measures up to 2kg, cost $35 (perfect for quarts or less)
other one was not much more than that and weighs by the gram up to more like 10kg, used it for doing gallons once
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That is correct. However, you have a minimum mix of 300-500g with discharge, depending, to ensure there is enough ink in the screen. Our Sartorius does well enough at tenths but a small scale to hundredths would be a must for a big formula testing project. That or waste a lot of ink.
Brandt, seriously, get a scale. You can use it for plastisol too. You are just going to chase yer trail without a consistent way to record mixes.
As I said, I am going to look at these samples coming and I am sure at that exact moment I will decide if I want to deal bothering with it or not. Until that second, no need for a scale.
Seriously let's not get off subject and make this about a scale. I am 1000% aware I need a scale if I want to use discharge day to day. So far though, I have not decided that I will use discharge, so lets not get ahead of ourselves.
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Hey Brandt, you should get a scale. I understand how you feel, it almost seems like discharge would just over complicate a system that works. There is a serious learning curve, a bunch of uncontrollable variables, and it's not for every customer. That being said, I still get more pumped over the opportunity to print discharge than anything else.
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Just to piss you guys off I think if I do decide to go with discharge, I will do it with no scale.
;D
You know like carrying screens out in open light.
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Hey, I got a phone number of a guy you can call and get a great deal on a scale. ;)
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Hey, I got a phone number of a guy you can call and get a great deal on a scale. ;)
I think I will take a video of me standing on the top of my screen print press, measuring for discharge, holding a unexposed screen in open light. I will send them to all you guys for Christmas cards.
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While typing 230 words per minute on the internet and speed reading everyone's post.
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While typing 230 words per minute on the internet and speed reading everyone's post.
Don't forget actually growing a business at a blistering pace ;)
Just hired a sales guy today for the local market. BOOM.
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6 figures in each division!
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Hey Brandt. After looking at a lot if the really nice prints you have posted here. I can tell you that even if you only ran dc underbases it would decrease your amount of flashing and increase your production times. You could still run plastisol overprint colors. That would be a small change and bring the immediate results you could touch and feel with minimal change from what's working for you now. Just sayin.
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Hey Brandt. After looking at a lot if the really nice prints you have posted here. I can tell you that even if you only ran dc underbases it would decrease your amount of flashing and increase your production times. You could still run plastisol overprint colors. That would be a small change and bring the immediate results you could touch and feel with minimal change from what's working for you now. Just sayin.
Which is what I am feeling like will be the end result, but I did have expectations of using it in other ways as well, which is why id like to see some other samples from people who are doing it so I can compare what I have to what is probably more realistic. Then we can form a game plan for it's use in my shop based on that.
Number one reason I was hoping to use it was to save a screen, since many if not nearly all of our jobs have 2 whites, often per side. (ub and highlight). What I seen out of our straight white to shirt I don't know that some of my customers would be satisfied with it vs what they are used to from a ub and highlight white as far as brightness goes anyway.
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6 figures in each division!
We aren't ones to let "doors" get in the way of or dictate growth. ;)
But yes it feels great to grow WELL into 6 figures in a year ;)
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Hey Brandt. After looking at a lot if the really nice prints you have posted here. I can tell you that even if you only ran dc underbases it would decrease your amount of flashing and increase your production times. You could still run plastisol overprint colors. That would be a small change and bring the immediate results you could touch and feel with minimal change from what's working for you now. Just sayin.
Which is what I am feeling like will be the end result, but I did have expectations of using it in other ways as well, which is why id like to see some other samples from people who are doing it so I can compare what I have to what is probably more realistic. Then we can form a game plan for it's use in my shop based on that.
Number one reason I was hoping to use it was to save a screen, since many if not nearly all of our jobs have 2 whites, often per side. (ub and highlight). What I seen out of our straight white to shirt I don't know that some of my customers would be satisfied with it vs what they are used to from a ub and highlight white as far as brightness goes anyway.
thats possible but on multi color work withou a dc base i run my white last. you may not get the super brite plastisol whites your used to without a dc base and highlite white. either way though your gonna blow the customers away with the improved hand and yourself away with the improved press time. im assuming you revolve some of your jobs due to flashing needs?
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Hey Brandt. After looking at a lot if the really nice prints you have posted here. I can tell you that even if you only ran dc underbases it would decrease your amount of flashing and increase your production times. You could still run plastisol overprint colors. That would be a small change and bring the immediate results you could touch and feel with minimal change from what's working for you now. Just sayin.
Which is what I am feeling like will be the end result, but I did have expectations of using it in other ways as well, which is why id like to see some other samples from people who are doing it so I can compare what I have to what is probably more realistic. Then we can form a game plan for it's use in my shop based on that.
Number one reason I was hoping to use it was to save a screen, since many if not nearly all of our jobs have 2 whites, often per side. (ub and highlight). What I seen out of our straight white to shirt I don't know that some of my customers would be satisfied with it vs what they are used to from a ub and highlight white as far as brightness goes anyway.
thats possible but on multi color work withou a dc base i run my white last. you may not get the super brite plastisol whites your used to without a dc base and highlite white. either way though your gonna blow the customers away with the improved hand and yourself away with the improved press time. im assuming you revolve some of your jobs due to flashing needs?
Yes sir and that is certainly one bonus. I was though hoping to basically end up using 1 less screen, as we are always having customers wanting MORE colors we get a lot of them that are 7, 8, 9 colors. 7 colors on a 8 color press is tricky even more so on longer runs. So it looks like that wont happen, but I still will entertain discharge as as under base to improve the hand.
I really just need a larger press, if we grow like last year, we will be going big this year on a press.
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Hey Brandt. After looking at a lot if the really nice prints you have posted here. I can tell you that even if you only ran dc underbases it would decrease your amount of flashing and increase your production times. You could still run plastisol overprint colors. That would be a small change and bring the immediate results you could touch and feel with minimal change from what's working for you now. Just sayin.
Which is what I am feeling like will be the end result, but I did have expectations of using it in other ways as well, which is why id like to see some other samples from people who are doing it so I can compare what I have to what is probably more realistic. Then we can form a game plan for it's use in my shop based on that.
Number one reason I was hoping to use it was to save a screen, since many if not nearly all of our jobs have 2 whites, often per side. (ub and highlight). What I seen out of our straight white to shirt I don't know that some of my customers would be satisfied with it vs what they are used to from a ub and highlight white as far as brightness goes anyway.
thats possible but on multi color work withou a dc base i run my white last. you may not get the super brite plastisol whites your used to without a dc base and highlite white. either way though your gonna blow the customers away with the improved hand and yourself away with the improved press time. im assuming you revolve some of your jobs due to flashing needs?
Yes sir and that is certainly one bonus. I was though hoping to basically end up using 1 less screen, as we are always having customers wanting MORE colors we get a lot of them that are 7, 8, 9 colors. 7 colors on a 8 color press is tricky even more so on longer runs. So it looks like that wont happen, but I still will entertain discharge as as under base to improve the hand.
I really just need a larger press, if we grow like last year, we will be going big this year on a press.
thats a good problem to have though. better than the i dont have enough work senario..
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The good thing about a DC base is flashing and heat is not an issue. That has been 100 percent of my issues here with 5 plus color jobs. That would make printing a 7 color on a 8 color press easy. You really just need to mess with this stuff. I have been doing it for 3 months and its not as easy as they say but it has advantages. You have to stop wanting it to be something else. Its a tool. Its not perfect. White is not white, get over it. You can't print one white screen and have it be your showing white and underbase for plastisols. Screen prep is more time consuming and its alot easier to make reject shirts. I have yet to have a customer complain or even point out the print as a bad thing. I personally think its a better product to wear.
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The good thing about a DC base is flashing and heat is not an issue. That has been 100 percent of my issues here with 5 plus color jobs. That would make printing a 7 color on a 8 color press easy. You really just need to mess with this stuff. I have been doing it for 3 months and its not as easy as they say but it has advantages. You have to stop wanting it to be something else. Its a tool. Its not perfect. White is not white, get over it. You can't print one white screen and have it be your showing what and underbase for plastisols. Screen prep is more time consuming and its alot easier to make reject shirts. I have yet to have a customer complain or even point out the print as a bad thing. I personally think its a better product to wear.
well there you go.. thanks jon
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We've picked up more than a few clients due to discharge.
They don't know what it's called, or what it does, but they know how it looks and feels.
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The good thing about a DC base is flashing and heat is not an issue. That has been 100 percent of my issues here with 5 plus color jobs. That would make printing a 7 color on a 8 color press easy. You really just need to mess with this stuff. I have been doing it for 3 months and its not as easy as they say but it has advantages. You have to stop wanting it to be something else. Its a tool. Its not perfect. White is not white, get over it. You can't print one white screen and have it be your showing white and underbase for plastisols. Screen prep is more time consuming and its alot easier to make reject shirts. I have yet to have a customer complain or even point out the print as a bad thing. I personally think its a better product to wear.
I think as a under base it will certainly improve the product. No doubt there. I am certain we probably migrate that way, I wanna see some real world prints from some of the guys that are sending me some and ill make some choices. Adding time to screens doesn't sound fun, thats probably where our shop struggles the most since we dont have dedicated people for screens.
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Its not alot of time depending on your emulsion. I just ran 100 shirts with out doing anything more then taping the top of the screen. I usually only tape the bottom. Each shop will be different about how much extra time it takes to do DC. I already have been using CD emulsion so there was no change there. I used hardener as a just in case but then decided not to on this 100 1/1 discharge run to test for breakdown without hardener. Not one issue at 100 shirts. (Aquasol HV)
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Here's how I look at discharge -- it takes longer and is more difficult that plastisol, but it yields a superior print. So... I charge more for it, and market it as a premium product.
That said, I have never been too happy with discharge "white." It's never really white, & the thicker the ink gets trying to make it opaque, the worse problems I've had with screen dry-in, etc. I gave up with that pretty quickly. Now, if a client wants a pure discharge print, I disclaim it, letting them know upfront that it'll have a superior feel, but will not be bright white. Only a small subset of clients want this. Exact Pantone matches with straight discharge are impossible. I also warn clients about this upfront, & of course even the educated ones will occasionally balk at a press check.
90% of the time, we use discharge as an underbase. We use the Sericol Texcharge & I add just enough white to the clear base to be able to see what I'm doing, maybe 5%. I add a bit of water to thin it down & I use a hard squeegee & double-stroke it & drive it deep into the fabric, then flash that before overprinting with plastisol. The premium factor here is that I can generally run the white highlight & colors on 230 mesh & hold superior detail. We do a lot of 7, 8 & 9 color prints on top of discharge underbases, and we can keep the lines crisp by running the colors on fine mesh, & they wash & wear pretty well.
You do need to measure your activator carefully -- if you add too much, it thickens up & dries in too quickly. It's not like more=better infinitely. With the Sericol, I usually go a percent or two below the max. recommended amt. just to avoid it getting gooey & drying in. It's hard for the press operator to catch that when it begins to happen gradually.
You'll want a water-resistent emulsion, & we harden our screens. They're a pain to reclaim, but that's a sunk cost we recover in the upcharge.
Recap: Yes, it's more difficult. If it were easy, anyone would do it. Charge more, accordingly.
Once I got good at it, I found that on long runs, a 6 color print on a discharge underbase was appreciably faster & easier to run that a 6 color print on a big blob of plastisol printed through a 110. You don't have to tell the client this if it comes to that, because again, you're now charging for your expertise.
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^^^^^^^^^^Well said^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
We do pretty much the same here as above. Nice post cvreeland!
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Nearly everything we print is 3-4 colors per job, often per side. Many times we are doing 3/5's 3/6's 4/5's 4/6's etc. So ya its a big deal if anything helps the process along. Its also a big deal if it screws with the process. I will asses things when I see some prints from real world operators that I know can print....rather than someone pushing a product on me (supplier).
From there I am sure I can make a choice. I know one thing, I can't have it adding much time at all to our screens, at least now how we are currently set up. We do not have a dedicated team to deal with screens. We have re-claimers, but Shelly still coats and burns all screens.
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It's not a whole lot more work to replace your plastisol underbase screen with a discharge one. It takes a minute or two to add hardener. It's a 1/1 trade with a couple minor extra steps. I feel like I more than make up the few extra pieces of tape with the increased productivity and margin I get out of discharge. There was a learining curve, but it's worth it, really.
Also, If you're stopping your presses to make screens, you really should do the math. Keep close track of the time you spend NOT printing because you're making screens instead, figure in how many shirts you could have made in that span of time, & see if the potential profit is enough to cover the labor of a full-time screen-maker. I've always had a screen guy or gal, even when we had one auto, or when we were running 3 manuals because it eased traffic flow enough to justify the cost because we gained that much productivity at the press each day.
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It's not a whole lot more work to replace your plastisol underbase screen with a discharge one. It takes a minute or two to add hardener. It's a 1/1 trade with a couple minor extra steps. I feel like I more than make up the few extra pieces of tape with the increased productivity and margin I get out of discharge. There was a learining curve, but it's worth it, really.
Also, If you're stopping your presses to make screens, you really should do the math. Keep close track of the time you spend NOT printing because you're making screens instead, figure in how many shirts you could have made in that span of time, & see if the potential profit is enough to cover the labor of a full-time screen-maker. I've always had a screen guy or gal, even when we had one auto, or when we were running 3 manuals because it eased traffic flow enough to justify the cost because we gained that much productivity at the press each day.
In context we are designers, so of course our press doesn't run every day. Our business isn't a typical screen print shop at all. We do massive amounts of design work here every day. We also do embroidery, and we are just 3 persons full time, 3 part time. We are unlike most shops, most shops on this site print every day, we even go a week without printing at times. Other weeks we may print 4-5 days. But generally we print about 3-4 days a week. We embroider 5 days a week almost always though.
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6 figures in each division!
We aren't ones to let "doors" get in the way of or dictate growth. ;)
But yes it feels great to grow WELL into 6 figures in a year ;)
Nah, just $35 dollar scales. You work on that scale and I'll work on defying the laws of physics.
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6 figures in each division!
We aren't ones to let "doors" get in the way of or dictate growth. ;)
But yes it feels great to grow WELL into 6 figures in a year ;)
Nah, just $35 dollar scales. You work on that scale and I'll work on defying the laws of physics.
A $35 dollar scale isn't standing in the way of anything around here but at this point it is actually FAR more entertaining to NOT have a scale. :D
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6 figures in each division!
We aren't ones to let "doors" get in the way of or dictate growth. ;)
But yes it feels great to grow WELL into 6 figures in a year ;)
Nah, just $35 dollar scales. You work on that scale and I'll work on defying the laws of physics.
A $35 dollar scale isn't standing in the way of anything around here but at this point it is actually FAR more entertaining to NOT have a scale. :D
BRANDT, the only thing we use our scale for is adding activator. any other mixing is done by eye.. hope that makes you feel better..your not alone.
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6 figures in each division!
We aren't ones to let "doors" get in the way of or dictate growth. ;)
But yes it feels great to grow WELL into 6 figures in a year ;)
Nah, just $35 dollar scales. You work on that scale and I'll work on defying the laws of physics.
A $35 dollar scale isn't standing in the way of anything around here but at this point it is actually FAR more entertaining to NOT have a scale. :D
BRANDT, the only thing we use our scale for is adding activator. any other mixing is done by eye.. hope that makes you feel better..your not alone.
OH NO, HOLD THE PRESS! LOL
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BRANDT, the only thing we use our scale for is adding activator. any other mixing is done by eye.. hope that makes you feel better..your not alone.
Same thing here. I was using our scale to measure all kinds of stuff, like ink deposit and anything else I was wondering how much it weighed, but now all we do is weigh our discharge ink and activator.
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Haven't read through everything but. Saw u guys talking about a 35$ scale. They're ok. I went through about 5 of the cheap ones until I found this..
http://balance.balances.com/scales/262/ (http://balance.balances.com/scales/262/)
Great scale not to expensive and works great! Highly recommend getting one.
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Got some samples from some very kind people on this board. It gave me a great idea where I should be and honestly our first go was very close to what I am seeing in these samples.
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You will want to test different percentages of discharge agent on the garments. Too much or not enough will change the brightness. I know people have beaten the " you need a good scale accurate scale" horse but it is true. Document the percentages accurately so that you can establish baselines to work with on future jobs. It will help you with consistency on reorders as well. Just being a little off goes a long way.
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Every bucket of ink here has the formula (PMS or custom)on the bucket therefore accurate scales are needed. We have one for discharge, one for plastisol. Discharge formulas are mine and we have just under 100. Anyone can mix colors. Also we do tonal discharge and it requires accuracy of at least .5 gram. Ours measure in tenths of grams
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I'll throw in that the smaller the amount of ink you're mixing, the more accurate your scale must be.
Especially true with PC's as opposed to finish systems.
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You will want to test different percentages of discharge agent on the garments. Too much or not enough will change the brightness. I know people have beaten the " you need a good scale accurate scale" horse but it is true. Document the percentages accurately so that you can establish baselines to work with on future jobs. It will help you with consistency on reorders as well. Just being a little off goes a long way.
We pretty much only run Gildan's here, at least 99% id say is Gildan 2000 and id say 90% of that is black. That's our market at least currently. So it should be fairly easy to figure that out for now if I in fact decide to deal with it.
Some of these scale comments are awesome! I never once said I don't need a scale, I said I don't need one until I am sure I am going to use discharge. But on the other hand, not having one for the 5 test shirts we tried (which came out super similar to what 2 big time printers sent me) has been well worth the entertainment. Maybe ill continue to go rouge... :D
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Maybe ill continue to go rouge... :D
Rouge = french for red.
Rogue = shows an undesirable variation from a standard
...just saying ;D
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If the sample shirts you received look anything like the picture you posted then something is wrong with the samples.
The picture posted is 70 base/30 white correct? (or thereabouts seeing as you don't have a scale) That mix
is usually used for UB (actually 80/20) and will give a tannish color as seen in your pic, depending on garment. Reverse the base/white,
print correctly, and you should have a truly bright white whose hand and overall appearance will be far more desirable than plastisol
to %99 of clients.
Get a scale. It's like a carpenter not having a hammer.
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If the sample shirts you received look anything like the picture you posted then something is wrong with the samples.
The picture posted is 70 base/30 white correct? (or thereabouts seeing as you don't have a scale) That mix
is usually used for UB (actually 80/20) and will give a tannish color as seen in your pic, depending on garment. Reverse the base/white,
print correctly, and you should have a truly bright white whose hand and overall appearance will be far more desirable than plastisol
to %99 of clients.
Get a scale. It's like a carpenter not having a hammer.
The samples I posted (as noted when posted), were our second try which was 70/30 then variations of that, first try was white with activator only which no picture was posted since I forgot to take a picture and the shirt is at home since we washed it, and it looks similar to the samples I received from Alan and Nick. Yes the sample pictures posted here were more natural/tarnished color which I expected. But it was slightly different than I expected as well and I also expected brighter white out of the straight white (not posted), as I have made clear my expectations were probably too high. After getting the samples from Nick and Alan ive confirmed that. My white print looked similar to their white prints I clearly had the expectations too high for how bright it would be since I am sure they do know what they are doing.
Reality is right now I don't need a scale since it is likely we will not do any more discharge at least not until we hire another person. We don't have any extra time for the extra steps required to do discharge as illustrated by the fact it took us like 3 months to try this twice, but I got a good set of samples and I already know I am close. Just a matter of tweaking it when time is right if ever.
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Maybe ill continue to go rouge... :D
Rouge = french for red.
Rogue = shows an undesirable variation from a standard
...just saying ;D
His keyboard just can't keep up. I've been working on an over clocked keyboard that can handle his typing speed but so far it's only resulted in some melted keys (more than normal that is).
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If the sample shirts you received look anything like the picture you posted then something is wrong with the samples.
The picture posted is 70 base/30 white correct? (or thereabouts seeing as you don't have a scale) That mix
is usually used for UB (actually 80/20) and will give a tannish color as seen in your pic, depending on garment. Reverse the base/white,
print correctly, and you should have a truly bright white whose hand and overall appearance will be far more desirable than plastisol
to %99 of clients.
Get a scale. It's like a carpenter not having a hammer.
The samples I posted (as noted when posted), were our second try which was 70/30 then variations of that, first try was white with activator only which no picture was posted since I forgot to take a picture and the shirt is at home since we washed it, and it looks similar to the samples I received from Alan and Nick. Yes the sample pictures posted here were more natural/tarnished color which I expected. But it was slightly different than I expected as well and I also expected brighter white out of the straight white (not posted), as I have made clear my expectations were probably too high. After getting the samples from Nick and Alan ive confirmed that. My white print looked similar to their white prints I clearly had the expectations too high for how bright it would be since I am sure they do know what they are doing.
Reality is right now I don't need a scale since it is likely we will not do any more discharge at least not until we hire another person. We don't have any extra time for the extra steps required to do discharge as illustrated by the fact it took us like 3 months to try this twice, but I got a good set of samples and I already know I am close. Just a matter of tweaking it when time is right if ever.
Glad you got the samples i sent, and it sounds like what i was thinking was right. some people just wont go for the discharge, no matter how nice and soft it feels, because the white just cant get as bright white like a good plastisol. some jobs, and some customers, are going to be ok with it, and once you get the hang of it, it certainly becomes easier and faster to print, but there will still be customers that just want that bright, thick, heavy, super bright white that you can only get from plastisol. we have one customer that specifically states, they want heavy thick, thicker the better, white plastisol prints because, in their opinion, thicker ink is better.
anyway, glad you got the shirts and hope they help you gettin things figured out if and when you do decide to give it a shot.
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For a softer bright white try a DCUB with hig mesh white plastisol.
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Maybe ill continue to go rouge... :D
Rouge = french for red.
Rogue = shows an undesirable variation from a standard
...just saying ;D
His keyboard just can't keep up. I've been working on an over clocked keyboard that can handle his typing speed but so far it's only resulted in some melted keys (more than normal that is).
My space bar has a dent, seriously.
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If the sample shirts you received look anything like the picture you posted then something is wrong with the samples.
The picture posted is 70 base/30 white correct? (or thereabouts seeing as you don't have a scale) That mix
is usually used for UB (actually 80/20) and will give a tannish color as seen in your pic, depending on garment. Reverse the base/white,
print correctly, and you should have a truly bright white whose hand and overall appearance will be far more desirable than plastisol
to %99 of clients.
Get a scale. It's like a carpenter not having a hammer.
The samples I posted (as noted when posted), were our second try which was 70/30 then variations of that, first try was white with activator only which no picture was posted since I forgot to take a picture and the shirt is at home since we washed it, and it looks similar to the samples I received from Alan and Nick. Yes the sample pictures posted here were more natural/tarnished color which I expected. But it was slightly different than I expected as well and I also expected brighter white out of the straight white (not posted), as I have made clear my expectations were probably too high. After getting the samples from Nick and Alan ive confirmed that. My white print looked similar to their white prints I clearly had the expectations too high for how bright it would be since I am sure they do know what they are doing.
Reality is right now I don't need a scale since it is likely we will not do any more discharge at least not until we hire another person. We don't have any extra time for the extra steps required to do discharge as illustrated by the fact it took us like 3 months to try this twice, but I got a good set of samples and I already know I am close. Just a matter of tweaking it when time is right if ever.
Glad you got the samples i sent, and it sounds like what i was thinking was right. some people just wont go for the discharge, no matter how nice and soft it feels, because the white just cant get as bright white like a good plastisol. some jobs, and some customers, are going to be ok with it, and once you get the hang of it, it certainly becomes easier and faster to print, but there will still be customers that just want that bright, thick, heavy, super bright white that you can only get from plastisol. we have one customer that specifically states, they want heavy thick, thicker the better, white plastisol prints because, in their opinion, thicker ink is better.
anyway, glad you got the shirts and hope they help you gettin things figured out if and when you do decide to give it a shot.
Thanks again for sending them, thanks again to Alan as well. Super helpful!
Yes we have customers that are both ways. Some will not stand for it not being as bright, I can tell you that right now. No way no how regardless how it feels. Then we have some that I know would eat it up. So we will get into it at some point I am sure. Right now we are balls out just to get our work done let alone take time for a new process. I hope we continue to grow like last year and we can hire a couple more people and then we can start working on this more seriously.
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Rouge=Shelly
Rogue=Brandt
Sorry couldn't resist
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Rouge=Shelly
Rogue=Brandt
Sorry couldn't resist
Red ginger locks.
BTW these guys would have a stroke if they seen Shelly coating and carrying unexposed screens in open light. I think of them every time when she does it. We break all the rules!
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Believe me we do also. A lot of what I do I would never recommend to anyone else.
We just know how to make old school meets new school work. Dave (Bimridder) never got the chance to come by last weekend but when he's back in town he'll get the picture. And Rick has threatened to come by; I would enjoy that as well.
In the end, we all do what we believe works best for us. And when unsure come here for (usually) sound advice.
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Rouge=Shelly
Rogue=Brandt
Sorry couldn't resist
Red ginger locks.
BTW these guys would have a stroke if they seen Shelly coating and carrying unexposed screens in open light. I think of them every time when she does it. We break all the rules!
Brandt remember I did my own little experiment by coating screens in full flouro light for one whole gallon and all my screens still exposed perfectly, even posted pics of the exposed calculators and yet no one once even acknowledged my experiment, is it because it goes against what the big time experts say? Dunno but just like you I never had flouro light corrupt any of my screens ever.
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Believe me we do also. A lot of what I do I would never recommend to anyone else.
We just know how to make old school meets new school work. Dave (Bimridder) never got the chance to come by last weekend but when he's back in town he'll get the picture. And Rick has threatened to come by; I would enjoy that as well.
In the end, we all do what we believe works best for us. And when unsure come here for (usually) sound advice.
I agree!
Brandt remember I did my own little experiment by coating screens in full flouro light for one whole gallon and all my screens still exposed perfectly, even posted pics of the exposed calculators and yet no one once even acknowledged my experiment, is it because it goes against what the big time experts say? Dunno but just like you I never had flouro light corrupt any of my screens ever.
I do remember that and I thought that was very odd it was "dismissed" or ignored.
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Classic case of letting the manufacturer/supplier/distributor giving advice that isn't necessarily sound. I had two discussions with industry supply veterans who were astounded to hear what we do with discharge. Talk about breaking the rules! They were going around telling customers to stay away from halftones and high mesh
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I remember Alan Howe telling me how he was shocked to see shops using a pressure washer to resolve their screens, he was always previously led to believe that is not the right way yet out on the road opened his eyes to how things really can be done.
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Doing everything like everyone else will just land you where everyone else is........ aim higher...
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Doing everything like everyone else will just land you where everyone else is........ aim higher...
That makes sense when you are taking it to the next level, not being more careless.
*disclaimer* we coat in full fluorescents all day.
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Doing everything like everyone else will just land you where everyone else is........ aim higher...
That makes sense when you are taking it to the next level, not being more careless.
*disclaimer* we coat in full fluorescents all day.
Who's being careless?
Oh and let me guess, I am careless for not having a scale, to use in a process we aren't offering. Right?
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...I may just send Brandt my extra scale JUST so I don't hafta read about this anymore... ;D
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...I may just send Brandt my extra scale JUST so I don't hafta read about this anymore... ;D
Send it, I will do a burn out on it in my truck. :D
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I don't care who you are thats funny!
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Doing everything like everyone else will just land you where everyone else is........ aim higher...
That makes sense when you are taking it to the next level, not being more careless.
*disclaimer* we coat in full fluorescents all day.
Who's being careless?
Oh and let me guess, I am careless for not having a scale, to use in a process we aren't offering. Right?
I'm talking about caring screens in open light... you say you carry them under shop lights, not just flouros. Now... is this .0001% UV exposure compared to the full UV, is it .1% uv compared to full UV needed to expose a screen, no one has figured this out yet. But the facts are it is MORE UV than someone that is doing it in a dark room and not exposing it to "any" UV. So in that regard you are by the book being more careless.
Which my point is doing things differently isn't going to necessarily make you better, especially if different isn't better. In this particular case, it isn't.
Again, I move my screens around in shop fluorescents all the time, so I am not suggesting (in fact I was one of the guys like you and Mike saying I doubt it makes "enough" difference).
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Rouge=Shelly
Rogue=Brandt
Sorry couldn't resist
Red ginger locks.
BTW these guys would have a stroke if they seen Shelly coating and carrying unexposed screens in open light. I think of them every time when she does it. We break all the rules!
Brandt remember I did my own little experiment by coating screens in full flouro light for one whole gallon and all my screens still exposed perfectly, even posted pics of the exposed calculators and yet no one once even acknowledged my experiment, is it because it goes against what the big time experts say? Dunno but just like you I never had flouro light corrupt any of my screens ever.
guess i should add, screens are coated, handled and burned in the open shop under full flouro lights, never had an issue. like most others, its just what works for us and how we do things, if it were causing problems, it would be changed asap.
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...I may just send Brandt my extra scale JUST so I don't hafta read about this anymore... ;D
Send it, I will do a burn out on it in my truck. :D
...Haha, okay, but at least check the readout beforehand. You'll be the only guy that knows his truck's weight down to a tenth of a gram.... 8) ;D
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Fluorescent lights don't scare me, never have. We have skylights though, and I can guarantee that even filtered sunlight
will expose screens in a matter of seconds. (photopolymer)
For those of you that refuse to use a scale, how are you matching Pantones? And if you do it by eye, how
do you repeat it?
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Doing everything like everyone else will just land you where everyone else is........ aim higher...
That makes sense when you are taking it to the next level, not being more careless.
*disclaimer* we coat in full fluorescents all day.
Who's being careless?
Oh and let me guess, I am careless for not having a scale, to use in a process we aren't offering. Right?
I'm talking about caring screens in open light... you say you carry them under shop lights, not just flouros. Now... is this .0001% UV exposure compared to the full UV, is it .1% uv compared to full UV needed to expose a screen, no one has figured this out yet. But the facts are it is MORE UV than someone that is doing it in a dark room and not exposing it to "any" UV. So in that regard you are by the book being more careless.
Which my point is doing things differently isn't going to necessarily make you better, especially if different isn't better. In this particular case, it isn't.
Again, I move my screens around in shop fluorescents all the time, so I am not suggesting (in fact I was one of the guys like you and Mike saying I doubt it makes "enough" difference).
We move ours under our warehouse lights even, metal-halide. Heck we coat em out there too. Then we put them in a drying cabinet out there, then carrying them again through there to our wash out room. It's bad ass!
Yet to see a difference and we've coated screens in dark, to just under florescent only, to metal-halide. I will continue to be as careless as possible until I see a result that makes me back up a step.
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Fluorescent lights don't scare me, never have. We have skylights though, and I can guarantee that even filtered sunlight
will expose screens in a matter of seconds. (photopolymer)
For those of you that refuse to use a scale, how are you matching Pantones? And if you do it by eye, how
do you repeat it?
Never needed to match a Pantone. When the need arises we will address it. So like I have been very clear about and the context has been ignored, we dont need a scale currently.
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Well then let's just say this. How do you match a re-order if you run out of an ink?
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Fluorescent lights don't scare me, never have. We have skylights though, and I can guarantee that even filtered sunlight
will expose screens in a matter of seconds. (photopolymer)
For those of you that refuse to use a scale, how are you matching Pantones? And if you do it by eye, how
do you repeat it?
Never needed to match a Pantone. When the need arises we will address it. So like I have been very clear about and the context has been ignored, we dont need a scale currently.
Maybe now someone will throw in an unneeded PMS swatch book with the scale-- even though you and gilligan clearly don't have any of those pesky PMS issues ;-).
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Since this post is about discharge................some examples of what the Mfgrs said you hould never try
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Well then let's just say this. How do you match a re-order if you run out of an ink?
Most ink colors our customers order are right out of a bucket, no mixing. Any mixing we note details and its stored with the films. We also have proofs with details as well also stored with films and we take pictures of all jobs. Never been a issue.
Keep in mind we design almost everything we print, so deciding color is generally up to us. We are fortunate enough to have customers that more or less let us pick colors and such.
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I've always suggested that with emulsion in liquid form that UV is less of an issue.
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Since this post is about discharge................some examples of what the Mfgrs said you hould never try
I was amazed at the lack of knowledge that the reps had at this years show. I asked several how their garments discharged and they said we could not do it that it does not work. Showed them a few pics on the Iphone to show them otherwise. Lots of jaws dropped.
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I just wish they would not over die bad discharging colors with good discharging colors. The last few runs I have done the Smalls have all been over died. They still looked fine but the white had a bluish tint to them. They were gildans
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Most shirt vendors and many ink suppliers don't understand discharge. Moreover they are scared shitless that some one prints an order and suddenly it won't work. At Nike back in the day the only guarantee in writing was with Sericol and Fruit.
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Canvas 3001u says "guaranteed dischargeable". Curious about that, probably just means no overdyes.
Got a dude that's telling me I can spec out garment orders from him to be discharge friendly....we'll see.
I'm with ya Tony. Here's a Purple 50/50, not only discharged completely and perfectly but.....drum roll.....this DC ink was activated, ran, sat on the shelf for a month, re-activated and then printed on this shirt. Breaking, like, all the rules here.
(http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad253/Z00_CITY/IMG_20130124_130320_822_zps2210833d.jpg)
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Breaking, like, all the rules here.
([url]http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad253/Z00_CITY/IMG_20130124_130320_822_zps2210833d.jpg[/url])
Keep doing that, you will be hated as much as me. :D
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Dude you are such a rebel, I mean a rouge.
Really though- you don't have a physical Pantone coated and uncoated set? That's print design 101 homie.
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Wait you claim to be a designer and don't have a pantone book. What else don't you have photoshop?
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Classic case of letting the manufacturer/supplier/distributor giving advice that isn't necessarily sound. I had two discussions with industry supply veterans who were astounded to hear what we do with discharge. Talk about breaking the rules! They were going around telling customers to stay away from halftones and high mesh
I print a negative of the black plate on CMYK-on-black jobs with discharge all the time. Once you learn to deal with keeping the highlight dots open, it yields a superior print because there's far less dot gain in the midtones & shadows. You get a much smoother fade-to-black transition at the edges with discharge than what's possible with Plastisol.
55 line on 230/40 double-stroke with a 60/90/60.
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Wait you claim to be a designer and don't have a pantone book. What else don't you have photoshop?
We use MS Paint. Export to BMP. We sep it with our vinyl program, then print. We take that print and hand color the velum's, expose with the sun. If its dark out, we use my headlights of my truck.
If you believe all of that, I got a bridge in China ill sell ya.
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Most of that seemed plausible except the MS Paint part.
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Most of that seemed plausible except the MS Paint part.
We use the oven to cure our prints, and we flash cure with a stove top inverted.
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....I just do what my customers THINK I do. Hit the MAGIC BUTTON.
..and here you guys are buying expensive presses and dryers and stuff. Whatta buncha dumbasses.... ;D
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LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Mr Tees nailed it.
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....I just do what my customers THINK I do. Hit the MAGIC BUTTON.
..and here you guys are buying expensive presses and dryers and stuff. Whatta buncha dumbasses.... ;D
You might be on to something, just hit print.
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I had a client ask me, at a press check, as we stood right by the press "Does the screen just see the youth shirts and get smaller?"
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I had a client ask me, at a press check, as we stood right by the press "Does the screen just see the youth shirts and get smaller?"
hahahaha that just made my day. that is awesome. people never cease to amaze me. ever
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I had a client ask me, at a press check, as we stood right by the press "Does the screen just see the youth shirts and get smaller?"
Wait yours doesn't do that?
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Wait you claim to be a designer and don't have a pantone book. What else don't you have photoshop?
We use MS Paint. Export to BMP. We sep it with our vinyl program, then print. We take that print and hand color the velum's, expose with the sun. If its dark out, we use my headlights of my truck.
Well that's not as bad as I would have guessed. I have worked with people that tell me they have a degree in design and then sent me a Power point presentation. Graphic Designer = I have a computer.
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Yeah, we had a Photoshop cowboy today. Tight deadline for a kids fishing derby that we're essentially
donating the shirts for.
She had snagged a picture of a sturgeon off the google, someone's painting, completely unflexing on arial bold,
layout, spacing, drop shadows, etc, ugh. Eventually okayed our design and it blows hers out of the water.
The proliferation of the personal computer may not be such a good thing after all.
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I think it's about to go backwards a little and we'll maybe see less of this "I pirated creative suite, I can just make the art". Seems like all the newer computers are touch screen/tablet/keyboard thingies or just really big phones and not so capable of running the software.
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Well that's not as bad as I would have guessed. I have worked with people that tell me they have a degree in design and then sent me a Power point presentation. Graphic Designer = I have a computer.
A guy in the Disc Golf world asked the wife for some help in designing some TROPHY discs for the tournament series. He was a graphic artist and sent her the Power Point files that he had been working on because the Disc manufacture was having "problems" using his "file".
No crap huh?
This guy is one of the most respected people behind the disc golf scene in this series.
My wife helped out and knocked out the design WAY into the night because it was way past too late to ask for help. Then he ended up completely ditching her design and never said a word. We showed up at the championships and didn't see her design and was like WTF?!
Of course it was (objectively) a WAY better design she did.
Just crazy.
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To get a design one must leave a deposit in this neighborhood.
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To get a design one must leave a deposit in this neighborhood.
I hear that, to get us to do anything but quote a customer we must be paid in full up front before we even put you on our calendar. Another something that most do differently than us. This goes for anything we offer, design, printing, business cards, flyers, and so on.
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To get a design one must leave a deposit in this neighborhood.
She was doing it for free. It's a pretty close community and it's ALL volunteers and there is ZERO money made by anyone in charge of these things. All about growing the sport. Individual events make money for some TD's (Tournament Directors) but the championships are put on by collecting $2 bucks from each player's entry into all the "qualifying" events throughout the year.
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I thought we had a long thread about how it was fine to coat screens in shop light? I remember saying we did it all the time. We also carry screens that are ready to be exposed in shop light all the time. Not for an hour but a few minutes at least. I don't remember but a small minority claiming we shouldn't do that but even they weren't really positive you couldn't do it.
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Thread has gone completely off topic so int the spirit of the OP heres another "You cant do that with discharge"
One screen
Pinup girl eight or nine I can't remember
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Thread has gone completely off topic so int the spirit of the OP heres another "You cant do that with discharge"
One screen
Pinup girl eight or nine I can't remember
Both are awesome Tony, you guys do some nice work and its nice to see you aren't scared to post it!
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Thanks Brandt. BTW Pinup Girl print is ten years old. It's hard to tell with th blurry photo but you can't see the dots even with a loupe
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Tony -- so you are obviously printing on 50/50's. What about 100% polyester ("sports performance") shirts? Have you slayed that dragon too?
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No. For performance Acrylic is best. Am beta-testing Sericols version next month. My earlier post with the vintage girl with rose shows a 50/50 next to a 100% cotton
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No. For performance Acrylic is best. Am beta-testing Sericols version next month. My earlier post with the vintage girl with rose shows a 50/50 next to a 100% cotton
Lucky you. They have been testing that out here for a little while now and I have tried to get my hands on it but my rep cant sneak any my way. He said wait until I see the price. Some people that do not want to buy Wilflex because of the cost will have a stroke when they hear the price of this stuff.
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Posting from a phone so I can't rotate the pics or anything. This is discharge base only with .5% activator (try eyeballing that!) we were testing a bunch of different garments just for giggles. Some came out awesome some not so much. The purple/pink etc. are heathered with varying poly content. Really like those. Thermal is %100 cotton from Royal. Can't do that with plastisol!
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Here's my thing we did a red discharge imprint on 8 black Jersies HD shirts this am on the manual. No underbase, no flash, no reg. hit once and into the dryer. The time saved messing around making two screens, films, reg, underbase, flash and print was worth the 5 min to mix the color and clean up.
I know it's not white but it makes it so easy to print. Just saying.
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Posting from a phone so I can't rotate the pics or anything. This is discharge base only with .5% activator (try eyeballing that!) we were testing a bunch of different garments just for giggles. Some came out awesome some not so much. The purple/pink etc. are heathered with varying poly content. Really like those. Thermal is %100 cotton from Royal. Can't do that with plastisol!
Good looking stuff.
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Ha! Just realized I have 2011 on there. No idea where that came from, we've been around a lot longer than that. Luckily it's not for someone else.
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3 color discharge just did this week. the yellow is alot smoother in person. not sure why it looks so grainy in the photo.
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nice work jon.. what brand of tee was that?
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Gildan 2000
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yea. the black has a A rating and the discharge great.. thanks