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screen printing => Waterbase and Discharge => Topic started by: dirkdiggler on November 20, 2012, 02:43:24 PM
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Does anyone do it? Is it necessary? I printed Sericol black on red and its not as good as I would like. Sericol says I need to activate it. Just wondering if anyone else activates there black or is there another brand that works great without activating?
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Been wondering this myself. I noticed one of our dc prints out there where there was some black going on asphalt. Damned if it didn't look a little fibrilated! Penetation was good, everything else seemed fine, used Matsui Black which I think is great ink.
If the wb is still going to fibrillate, may as well use the plastisol. So I'd say try it side by side-
Texcharge Black (unactivated)
Texcharge Black (activated)
Regular WB Black
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That Matsui spot black is so damn dark it'll bend light . . .
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ive done it.. it turns like a greyish color. not black. i agree with the spot black that stuff is BLACK! but I have never had issues with sericol.
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what are you going to do discharge black on? White?
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what are you going to do discharge black on? White?
on Red, if you dont discharge it, it doesnt cover very well.
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That Matsui spot black is so damn dark it'll bend light . . .
Tom are you talking about a RFU Matsui black? I've not seen a product like that. I just mix my black with PC Pigments, with just decent results....nothing like your description
Stan
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There's Pantone Black and spot black. The Pantone black is so-so. The spot black is really dense . . . like coal . . . flat . . . hard to wash the stain out of the screen black. Mine was anyway. Not RFU, but mixed in the base from the pigments.
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That Matsui spot black is so damn dark it'll bend light . . .
Tom are you talking about a RFU Matsui black? I've not seen a product like that. I just mix my black with PC Pigments, with just decent results....nothing like your description
Stan
Yup, Matsui Jet Black. Comes in 5 and 1 gallons from Matsui directly. Been our black water base of choice for years. However, we start our trial period this week with nothing but the entire new line of CCI discharge products. See how it goes for the next couple of weeks
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Me too. I've got CCI Pigments and bases and I have what is purported to be an especially nice bright red formula with CCI, which I've ALWAYS had difficulty with, prior to Sericol's Yellow Shade Red....which I tweak.
I LOVE the CCI bases and D-White especially. Haven't even opened the box of Pigments yet, even though I've had them for weeks. (Weird, I know...)
Thanks for the tip, Tom. (oops...Brandon I meant. Sorry...) I'll be interested to read your impressions of the CCI stuff. I've been waiting for a slow spell to play with it, myself.
Stan
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let us know how that red works out, i got there pigment set and have not been able to get a decent red.
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Here is what I was given for the bright CCI discharge red, but I can't say how (or if) it works yet.
6% Rubine,
~3% Orange (or ~3% Warm Red depending on what you want)
6% 032
3% Activator
15% seems like a lot of pigment loading to me. I got this from a CCI rep who reportedly is moving a LOT of product.
Personally, I have good luck with the Sericol Yellow Shade Red which I tweak as follows, in multiples for whatever size batch you are looking for.
100 grams YS Red
100 grams of CCI D-Base
10 grams Matsui Neo Red Pigment
6.5 grams of activator
I am considering ordering a gallon of the Matsui Jet Black waterbase, unless someone likes the Sericol better. I can't imagine why I would ever need to discharge it, if it is as black as Tom said. I don't remember if I've ever printed black waterbased on red shirts, but even what I do... with just PC black Matsui pigment... seems to work on all the colors I've tried.
Stan
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Yup, Matsui Jet Black. Comes in 5 and 1 gallons from Matsui directly. Been our black water base of choice for years. However, we start our trial period this week with nothing but the entire new line of CCI discharge products. See how it goes for the next couple of weeks
Brandon,
I am very interested in hearing your take on the CCI products. I have been using them on about 12 jobs now and I am liking them. I have very little experience with this stuff and can't even really compare it to another brand since I never used Matsui enough. So far I am liking the easy of use. I am yet to use a mixer. All my color mixes are just mixed for maybe 30 seconds with a goop scoop.
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All my color mixes are just mixed for maybe 30 seconds with a goop scoop.
Careful with that. You should be using a high speed mixer imo. Especially with wb PCs. According to some manufacturers, wb inks need a high speed shearing/mixing to disperse properly and completely.
Aside from that, you have the discharge activator that needs to be evenly dispersed.
It doesn't take long to do it and it's easy to clean off the paint mixer being wb.
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All my color mixes are just mixed for maybe 30 seconds with a goop scoop.
Careful with that. You should be using a high speed mixer imo. Especially with wb PCs. According to some manufacturers, wb inks need a high speed shearing/mixing to disperse properly and completely.
Aside from that, you have the discharge activator that needs to be evenly dispersed.
It doesn't take long to do it and it's easy to clean off the paint mixer being wb.
I am sure your right. I mix my ink then add activatorr. Then mix for about 20 seconds. let it sit while I am setting up the press and then come back and mix it again. Never had an issue yet. I have a drill press that I am thinking about setting up as a mixer. I guess I just need to find the time...
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I get in incomplete mixing troubles, not with activator or pigment, but with adding RFU white when called for by the formula. The CCI D-Base will mix in with lumps, causing white steaks, when added to D-Base, if PC pigments are added before the white. I start out with the white first when required, "reducing" it with some clear base before adding pigments. but I never use machine mixing. After the mix sits, activated, for 20 minutes or so, I stir again and go to press. I get along with that method okay, but adding CCU white AFTER the pigments, will mess it up every time. YMMV...
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I get in incomplete mixing troubles, not with activator or pigment, but with adding RFU white when called for by the formula. The CCI D-Base will mix in with lumps, causing white steaks, when added to D-Base, if PC pigments are added before the white. I start out with the white first when required, "reducing" it with some clear base before adding pigments. but I never use machine mixing. After the mix sits, activated, for 20 minutes or so, I stir again and go to press. I get along with that method okay, but adding CCU white AFTER the pigments, will mess it up every time. YMMV...
Ok call me a newbie, What is CCU white? Is that just the pigment white?
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Whoops.....
No that's just ME entering a post from my smartphone. Smart doesn't refer to the one who pays the bill or carries the device. I meant CCI white. You probably know all this: but CCI is marketing a base which they call D-Base (I just ordered 5 more gallons) but they also have a WHITE ink (RFU--Ready For Use) which they call D-White. You can add activator and a little water and go to press. I'm a big fan of the CCI White.
So....CCI, not CCU. Duh..... So sorry. I'm just gonna leave it wrong in my above post. It'll at least make sense that way.
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Cordless blender works as well. You do not need to homogenize
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Hey hey,
Yes, doing testing this week and then going into production next week with some runs of a few hundred here and a few hundred there. I am sure everything will be fine. Will post again soon!
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activating black will a lot of times blow out your color and make the ink turn a grayish color. I have run into the same issue with the water base black i primarily use so when printing on reds neons etc. you can use matsui spot black. great for printing on bright colors
-Jeremiah
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This post piqued my interest so, yesterday (working on Sunday...booo!) I was running a one color black on Red AA 2001 and did a brief WB v. plastisol show down.
150/48 coated 2/1 Thin edge with Aquasol HV.
I used a bucket of QCM (Jantex) Spot Black for the WB since it is the most viscous black ink we have, it's basically "gloppy" in consistency, reminds me of some other craft inks out there like Jacquard. Double hit pull stroke with a 60 duro blade to ensure that my tired hands weren't affecting the outcome.
Then, I cleaned out the WB and did a one hit of Wilflex Epic Matte Black, push stroke through the same screen. This is a bit more ink than I would typically lay down but, in fairness, the WB got a double hit so I'll give the plastisol a little more open area too. It was not excessive in ink deposit and definitely ensured the plastisol bridged the fabric completely. I have, in the past, used a thin coated 150 for bigger areas of dark ink on lights and especially for longer runs. All that is just b/c I'm printing manually, it would be different on an auto.
Anyways, same screen, same shirt, 2 inks, both printed "correctly". Wash tested and they both look great but the WB wins for softer hand and rich, matte black appearance. The plastisol, which I might add is a very nice black, looks great too but has a touch of sparkly gloss and, of course the hand. I'm going to wash this thing about 10-20 cycles and then post pics to really see.
My conclusion- WB black should cover fine if the ink has enough body and full penetration/saturation is achieved. It brings up a point though...
I believe the comments that you need to activate the Sericol black may come from the fact that discharge, unlike regular WB, uses the activating properties of the ZFS agent to wick pigment into the fiber ends. I didn't have time but would like to see what Sericol Black at a low % activator does. I have seen fibrilation issues with unactivated Sericol black, especially if it is stepped on. I've also seen light fibrilation from Sericol colors ran unactivated. Some WB perhaps uses a different approach to encapsulate the individual fibers or has chemistry that allows it to do so without a discharge agent. Sericol colors, as much as I would like them to be, may not be the go to for non-discharge printing and perhaps the black is best reserved as a mix color in the system and not a stand alone. I'll find out more when I start trialing the CCI pigments with their X-base (not the DC base as that would be about the same as the Sericol). I'm thinking that the base makes the difference and a DC specific base needs or at least "likes" to be activated to perform whereas normal WB bases do not require this.
I'm just speaking from observation and purely bullshitting so if someone knows the real skinny, chime in.
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I'll find out more when I start trialing the CCI pigments with their X-base (not the DC base as that would be about the same as the Sericol). I'm thinking that the base makes the difference and a DC specific base needs or at least "likes" to be activated to perform whereas normal WB bases do not require this.
I'm just speaking from observation and purely bullshitting so if someone knows the real skinny, chime in.
X-base is a waterbase extender not a base. Can it be used as a base with pigment? I didn't think it had the binding agents in it, or as much. I was told to mix pigments into the d-base to make waterbase inks. (not activator)
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Ok, looks like X-Base is now "W-Base". I had a qt of the X sent to me awhile ago, probably the same or very similar. From the TDS:
W-Base is a clear base for waterbase printing. W-Base is designed to be used with pigment systems or as an extender for standard waterbase colors.
I suppose you could also use this to extend but I don't extend WB inks ever, maybe if I had a mix used for a previous run that was loaded at max pigment and I only needed half of that for a job then sure, I'd add more base but that's it. Even then, I'd rather drop the coin on the pigments than deal with color issues.
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I just looked on CCI website. Didn't know they added stuff. They now have W-base, pure white, spot black and a retarder. I guess on my next order I will have some new stuff to try.
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Yeah I'm pumped to check out their Pure White as a top color over DC for white on "problem garments" and Spot Black when the QCM/Jantex gravy train runs out of track. In case folks weren't aware, there is QCM/Jantex stock out there for stupid cheap right now.
CCI's product has been stellar for us so far. Looking forward to whatever else they got but hope they don't muck up the offering with too many products doing the same damn thing, ahem, all their chemical lines.
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Yeah I'm pumped to check out their Pure White as a top color over DC for white on "problem garments" and Spot Black when the QCM/Jantex gravy train runs out of track. In case folks weren't aware, there is QCM/Jantex stock out there for stupid cheap right now.
Shhhhhhh..... ;)
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I just looked on CCI website. Didn't know they added stuff. They now have W-base, pure white, spot black and a retarder. I guess on my next order I will have some new stuff to try.
Mother effer! I was on there Friday as I need to place an order and was looking at the new WR emulsions. I swear
none of the waterbased stuff was on there.
Whereas most companies under-produce their products and over-hype/market them (just called to tell you about....)
CCI seems to do the exact opposite.
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Zoo, what did you mean, "stepped on" three posts back?
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Stepped on usually means a color that is printed earlier in the sequence and has additional colors printed after it. One of the hindrances that requires greater attention to variables in our beloved little process. Moreso with plastisol.
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What eb said.
I did a 6 color yesterday and after reading all these threads about zombie skin and what not was paying closer attention to what the buildup was doing. Seems like it does very well, better than plastisol until you get to around color 4 and, by then, there is enough build up to create a suction effect and impact the vibrancy of the first color down. I was double stroking the first color to compensate and that worked fine. Still no zombie skin and nothing outside of normal buildup. No dry-in, no issues whatsoever really. And, once again, I used reactivated DC ink that I mixed from stuff that was run up to a month ago. Breakin' the law.
I do see where a half flash would come into play though. I messed around with that a little in setup and found that you can pretty easily use a quartz flash to flash off some moisture without starting the discharge process at all so it would presumably be safe to do on press.
Getting "stepped on" can be a biatch with big open areas of spot color as in the job I was describing above but a very good thing for sim pro with this ink. The last 6co DC sim pro I did, was one of those prints I'm actually proud of and happy with except I really wished I had one more screen, even a blank one to step on the black and help blend the dots on the black, which was last down.
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I think I get "stepped on" now. I don't think I've seen that term before. (Odd, that.)
I dont want to hijack this thread, but I don't get any Zombie Skin until maybe 100 pieces, 4 or more colors. (Give or take) Then larger areas of spot color from earlier screens picked-up are the problem...on later screens. It forms the skin and transfers back in to the fresh ink deposit, on maybe screens 4 or 5.
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Oh, that doesn't sound as bad. This run I referred to above was abt 100 I think and, sure, I would have probably stopped to wipe down if there were more in the run. Similar deal with plastisol typically. I'm ok at running WOW, not great or even good at it, always working on doing better. Until then it's flash or wipe down as needed and hey even if you are just ok at it, it's still better than flashing every color.
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Hers a sim process B&W with gray midtones. The grayrs are activated 3% and the black 0%
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Tony, how many screens did that shirt require?
Stan
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Hmmm that was about 9 ys ago but it was 4 or 5 no flash. The customer sent the album covers at different res so it was challenging but the actual shirt is 100% sharper in person if anyone wants to stop by and see/feel it.