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screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: screenprintguy on November 29, 2012, 08:46:07 AM
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It's here, woop!!! So it was an adventure this morning. The driver was a couple hours early but thankfully our friends at AirGas sent over a forlift and operator to help us out. Then when the driver opens the doors the to the trailer, it was all the way at the front and no chain on the truck. God worked it all out, we had a neighbor run a tow strap and chain across the street when he saw us, then the drive and I had to hang off the crate to keep it from tipping off the forks because the forklift's forks were about2 feet too short to reach the center of the pallet, all I could do is pray it down, it was shakey, but we got it. No coffee needed this morning to get the heart rate up for sure. The thing is freakin huge!Can't wait. I'll post pics throughout the whole process. Next step move it, uncrate it and wait for the M&R wizard to come and show us how it works =). Feels like Christmas came a month early!!!
(http://i45.tinypic.com/2i1gk1v.jpg)
(http://i49.tinypic.com/20aewdw.jpg)
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Don't know who your wizard is but my old bud Geoff Baxter is the lead Guru behind these I believe.
Good luck and keep us posted on progress.
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Thanks Tony, I'm not sure who will be actually coming, Rich said there are a few and it depends on who is available. I'll give who ever comes props, he's gonna need it with my thick head :o, can't wait.
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Congrats Mike and Niki....you know we are here if you need any assistance or guidance with it... I just want it set up so you can start benefiting from it!
way to rock it.
Sam
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Congrats!
Now make sure to make notes, keep records, and document your findings over the next few months as there will be a quiz on this!
(Boy, do we ever know that there will be a quiz on this! lol!) ;D
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@ Sam, thanks brother, we are stoked, wish I could plug it in and start rockin screens today.
@ Frog, trust me, we will be logging data and shooting vids for sure.
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Best of luck with it!
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Thanks Brandt, really excited man!!
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Good luck. Cant wait to see the vids and check it out.
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Whats an I-Image LOL naw good luck and hope it makes you a few more bucks and save you all tons of time.
Darryl
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Congrats on wasting your money!!! :) Seriously though, I do suspect you'll have much success with it. 12 months from now we'll probably be talking about that CH III truck showing up early. If you have a good profit margin already then 3-5 more jobs per week will give you a great ROI even though you're looking more for the other benefits of the machine.
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Mike, don't wait for no stinkin' tech. Set it up and start playing today!!! Seriously, I'm excited for you. I'm sure you'll keep us all posted. From what I saw at SGIA, it looked damn nice.
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It's frigin huge Dave!! I would but I don't want to get myself in trouble by messing around with anything, Rich told me be patient for the tech to come and handle that part. It's got lots of goodies on the crate and the whole thing looks very heavy duty. It's pretty impressive looking in person.
Hey Alan, C3 would be nice wouldn't it :D You never know what's behind the next door, and I'm always eager to improve.
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Yeah, I know. I was (half) kidding. Do you know how bad it hurt walking by that kick a$$ 18-16 CIIID for almost two weeks before the tech got here. All put together but couldn't play with it. Worth the wait though.
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Yeah, I know. I was (half) kidding. Do you know how bad it hurt walking by that kick a$$ 18-16 CIIID for almost two weeks before the tech got here. All put together but couldn't play with it. Worth the wait though.
I can only imagine, I mean this thing is cool enough, but a 16 co C3, I'd be wearing a path in the concrete floor pacing in front of it, hahaha
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Thanks JBlue, Thanks Darryl! Got the room for it almost done, Insulated it all last night, doors and inner wall boardgoes up today. Gonna do some track lighting using LED light bulbs for a nice bright UV free room. Got the gigantic crate jacked up and sitting on furniture dolly's so we can move it around till it's ready to go in place, nice wood on that crate I already see some use out of that stuff ;D
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UPDATES!!! WE'RE DIYING FOR UPDATES!!!!
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Hey Jamie. Well, updates are that our custom room/office for it and me is now done and lookin sweet, with the unit in it waiting on the tech. We should have the tech out here this week the 20th for full training and final install stuff. It's really got me itching man, can't wait. I had to come in this morning to get ahead for next week and lining up all these dam films for some sim process jobs, I'm tapping my foot on the ground looking back at the machine sayin, daaaaaam, I wouldn't be stressing over these dang line ups if that thing was running already ;D :o. All in good time though, can't wait. One thing that happens to me from time to time, I'm sure you've seen it. On larger seps, the film may like to move "slightly" in the inkjet printers as it's being pulled through and can really be a bugger at grid line up, especially if it's something like halftones, or serious detail. Hopefully that will be one more factor to rule out. We got a new customer who is an artist who does paintings for Nat Geo, and he is verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry picky. I know this unit is going to help that along the way too. I'll give some updates later in the week when the tech is here and we are rockin out with it!!
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I am still wondering why you are having such a problem lining up films. Sounds like you are having a lot more trouble than normal.
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Whos having problems linning up films? I'm just saying it's a waist of time for me and our production mold if we can streamline the process goin direct to screen
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Thanks for the update. I would go insane waiting for the tech to install. I hear you about films. One thing I noticed is the amount of stretch or whatever changes at different parts of the film roll.
So for example if we print films for a job and find out later one of the colors is borked we can't just reprint the film as it won't reg with the earlier films.
We can't get a dts soon enough!
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I am finding on our 4800 with rip that if I print a set vertically and then later print a replacement horizontal they don't line up. So I will agree there. Print all the same way is only way I see to solve problem.
Shane
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Saw it today 1 film out of 8 on a sim pro job was a lil goofy on yhe reg marks. Re printed thst sep wa s good prooved the possible slipage with films tracking on large prints. Jamie, I can't wait brother.
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If only it could keep up with our production requirements. Then that would be something.
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No problem there Tony. We have one that will do 400 per 10 hr shift.
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Wow thats something. Whats the $$?
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I saw this at SGIA. The thing is smoking fast! I almost wish my I-Jet would crap out on me so I could have a new I-Image.
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Saw it today 1 film out of 8 on a sim pro job was a lil goofy on yhe reg marks. Re printed thst sep wa s good prooved the possible slipage with films tracking on large prints. Jamie, I can't wait brother.
This can happen with any film output device.
The taller the image, the more opportunity or potential you have of it miss registered. What causes this? A few things.
1, The math and finite capabilities of our devices. We can set something up at 12" wide and 16" tall and if you look at the film output, it's almost ever (if ever) 100% dead on 16".
It may be very "very" small in difference, but it is. For example, it may be 15.03125 tall. This difference even starts from your art programs and the math or algorithms used to plot out the image. It's either on or off a dot, (thin of matrix), Compound that with the same effects from the output device, and it could be off as much as a 32th of an inch.
2, I will lump several factors into this. They all effect it the same way.
- Temperature
- Temperature of device
- Humidity
- time of day of output.
If you start in the AM printing films in a cold room, and you have a 6-10 color print that takes 15-30 minutes to print films, your last one or two can be out of register due to the changes on the above.
If you've been running films all day long and your room has been in a controlled temperature all day, the device may be at a settling point where all are accurate and consistent.
The fewer colors you have, the more accurate your registration will be. THe longer and more constant you run your films, the more consistent they will be.
I would expect this to be true for all devices. Thermals are notorious for being out of register for these reasons.
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Thanks for the elaboration Dan, but come the end of this week, we will no longer have to deal with film , I can't wait for this bad a$$ I-Image to be rocking out our screens. Install will be like an early Christmas present!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Happy for ya screen, but I,m like Dan all machines have a hicups some times, some where down the line....hopefully your line will be very long.
Darryl
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I hear you D! Glad it's M&R behind this piece of gear, just in case, but praying it runs like a charm!
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Wow thats something. Whats the $$?
The high speed unit is under 60K
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OH YEAH, THE M&R TECH IS IN THE HOUSE, Let the fun begin!!!!
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Frank, you are about to go on a fun ride, enjoy it to the fullest and hope you guys have a wonderful Christmas!
Ron Hopkins
M&R Sales and Service Co.
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Thanks Ron, can't wait, Javier is working his tail off, glad he got here safe with the bad weather they had to fly through. I may be in touch with you after February to discuss exposure units ;D
Have a Merry Christmas Ron!!
Mike
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Man, the I-Image rocks!!!!! Javier the tech is very thorough. Talk about improvement on detail on our halftone seps We shot a sample screen and compared to a film and screen from a few weeks ago, NIGHT AND DAY DIFFERENCE!!! woooooop
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Man, the I-Image rocks!!!!! Javier the tech is very thorough. Talk about improvement on detail on our halftone seps We shot a sample screen and compared to a film and screen from a few weeks ago, NIGHT AND DAY DIFFERENCE!!! woooooop
MORE TELL US MORE!!!
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Brandt..we all know this was a stupid purchase and it will not improve anything at his shop or make him more money...come on...
and MIKE...it does rock huh...
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Brandt..we all know this was a stupid purchase and it will not improve anything at his shop or make him more money...come on...
and MIKE...it does rock huh...
Because that is EXACTLY what we all said. And you wonder what is wrong with the world today?!
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Brandt..we all know this was a stupid purchase and it will not improve anything at his shop or make him more money...come on...
and MIKE...it does rock huh...
Because that is EXACTLY what we all said. And you wonder what is wrong with the world today?!
I think DTS will benefit Mike's shop a great deal, probably a lot more than Sam's actually because he's doing a lot more screens per job, and he doesn't catalog film or do a ton of repeat jobs.
It's a good thing that most of us didn't run out and buy a DTG machine because someone said they were making a ton of money with it. Most of us did our own research and applied it to our own shop instead of just taking someone's word for it. Same concept applies for DTS and your shop. It's actually a lot easier to decide whether or not DTS is right for your shop than a DTG, there are many more "knowns" to plug into the equation with DTS. Sam used to have a DTG machine, never heard much about it though, just a few things about it being a great addition to the shop. I'd personally go DTS long before DTG but I do understand how and why some shops have been very successful with DTG technology.
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We're next... I just hpoe we can get the right RIP with the machine of choice!
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I'm interested in that super fast unit from M&R. Not that the single and double print head units aren't great, I think we are going to need the faster unit to help make up that ROI that we won't see that other shops are getting.
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Hey guys I wanted to post an update and give a huge pat on the back to everyone at M&R that worked with us on our I-Image install and training. The tech Javier that came out to do the install did an awesome job, was super thorough and very patient with the limited time he had on site to work with us. He was awesome. The unit was and still is working awesome. We had one hiccup with a couple of emulsions that we use interacting with the UV ink from the unit. M&R from the top of the ladder down was awesome, from Rich, to the product manager, digital manger and 3 techs, constant daily communication and testing to figure out the issue. In the end, it was just the ink that we had in the machine. Simple mistake of ST ink instead of the standard I-Image unit that we actually have's ink. They overnighted ink, talked me through the proper flush and re-fill steps and now we are problem free on "any" emulsion. I went through 5 types my self plus what they did to back up test and make sure we were good. I have spoken with other guys with other brands of CTS machines that hit similar issues but had a heck of time with service from the manufacturers that they went with, while the M&R crew, including weekends were all over. We didn't loose any production time from the hiccup, we were able to have a temp fix of settings to still produce screens, but M&R was adamant that this needed to be nailed down fast, and they delivered. We have had M&R equipment in our shop since we started and never really had an issue to see how they respond in service. With this small situation we saw how thorough they are and how adamant that they are on communication and problem resolution. I can't be happier with the group that worked with us, and how this unit is increasing our productivity. We are in our slower season right now, so I can only see how this was such a smart move for us. The detail in our printing from the CTS has seriously increase, as well as accuracy, and speed in set ups. If any of you are thinking, have the means to move into one of these I-Image units, don't even wait, do it and you will be kicking yourself that you didn't do it quicker, trust me, I'm a cheapo and really hold back on spending if I can, but this thing is the bombdiggity!!!
Thank Rich, and your crew really need a pat on the back. Specially thanks to Alex W, Javier, Alex M, Geoff, Rich, and PatFinn for all of the support and help!!!!!!!
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We have M&R coming by tomorrow here, I will be asking a lot of CTS questions.
8)
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Dude, you would love it!!!
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Sweet, thanks for the update.
So I guess the only real issue is finding the right emulsion or getting the inks right. I can see how that might take some time considering all the different emulsions out there but I wouldn't have thought there would be that much difference between emulsions that the CTS inks wouldn't adhere to them. Oh well, not a deal breaker and I'm sure in a few months to a year they will be fine tuned and work perfectly with your favorite emulsion.
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Sweet, thanks for the update.
So I guess the only real issue is finding the right emulsion or getting the inks right. I can see how that might take some time considering all the different emulsions out there but I wouldn't have thought there would be that much difference between emulsions that the CTS inks wouldn't adhere to them. Oh well, not a deal breaker and I'm sure in a few months to a year they will be fine tuned and work perfectly with your favorite emulsion.
Alan the problem was the wrong ink was installed here at the factory. I -image and I-image ST take two completely different inks. The ink that goes through the I-image does not care what type of emulsion it jets to. Just a FYI.
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Right, sorry Alan if I didn't clarrify. No need to use limited emulsions, I simply had ST ink in my tank by mistake. Now that we have the proper cts ink in the unit I can print on anything. The ST model and standard I-image have different print heads needing different ink formulations. It's really awesome. Nothing like seping a new 8 co front 8 co back job, printing the seps cts exposing in seconds, super fasr wash out. Less taping to do and then lock and load on press with very little micro, if at all. Soooooooo much more efficient than what we were ding with film and carrier sheets and so much more detail.
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Did you have ANY idea how great it would be? I try to tell people but it usually falls on deaf ears. Seeing is believing
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It's all about ROI guys, forget quality of life!
;D
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It's all about ROI guys, forget quality of life!
;D
Yeah!!! F it man, who needs investments.
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It's all about ROI guys, forget quality of life!
;D
Yeah!!! F it man, who needs investments.
Do you think quality of life/work should be factored into a choice like a CTS? Or for you is it all about the numbers?
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My quality of work, quality of efficiency, and quality of life aka-----making things at the shop easier------, is where we are getting instant roi. The other numbers and figures are peripheral.
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Been trying to get the boss to get me a lazy boy for years yet he never does!......... F!@# it I quit!
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ink, go to sam's club, they have a good one there for about $300 I think. Expense it out.
I agree with the quality of life. That is why I want a nice office, I spend my day here, it should look good for me too.
That is why I grabbed the exposure unit I got, and the 4800. Te 40-1k and the epson 3000 were working fine, but I wanted something that was faster, and easier, and I had to babysit less.
Quality of life would probably be taken more into the labor saving end of ROI.
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ink, go to sam's club, they have a good one there for about $300 I think. Expense it out.
I agree with the quality of life. That is why I want a nice office, I spend my day here, it should look good for me too.
That is why I grabbed the exposure unit I got, and the 4800. Te 40-1k and the epson 3000 were working fine, but I wanted something that was faster, and easier, and I had to babysit less.
Quality of life would probably be taken more into the labor saving end of ROI.
You know I am kidding of course. I have a great office chair keeps the back from screaming to much but a lazy boy would be a bit over kill lol.
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We need some new chairs around this place, but most of them are ugly as hell, and if they look good, you don't want to sit in them. I was also kidding of course.(I did get one of those chairs though for my son's room, so much better than a rocker).
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Been trying to get the boss to get me a lazy boy for years yet he never does!......... F!@# it I quit!
I thought you were the boss? j/k, seriously ;)
My quality of work, quality of efficiency, and quality of life aka-----making things at the shop easier------, is where we are getting instant roi. The other numbers and figures are peripheral.
Pretty much my attitude on it.
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come on guys..you know you cannot make money with one of those...and why would you want one? it doesn't make you go any faster?
ahahhahahah
I think Mike gets it and sees where are the savings are over film....enjoy and make more money in 2013 than 2012...get get em
sam
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Yeah it is a hefty financial investment compared to a $500-$2,000 inkjet printer, but like any investment, you reap the huge benefits in time. Thankfully this particular investment is giving us instant reaping with ease of work. You really can't see it until you are personally using it. If you know someone with a CTS and can spend some time with them you would see it. I have to admit, conceptually I was hooked, but still skeptical until it's actually here in use. Nobody likes to lay out a chunk of change, but knowing I have M&R behind the machine, and how the machine was built, I know it will be here in use for the long haul. Nooooooo moooooooooreeeee films, no more carrier sheets. Less time taping up screens, no more pin hole possibilities, no more, oh wait did the vacum lid shift something in the exposure unit, no more waiting for the lid to draw down, I can expose 2-3 screens faster just in the time saved in no draw down, bottom line, I can't keep up with it, THAT'S A GOOD THING =). Not trying to show off at all guys, please don't take it that way. I'm just trying to explain that this type of investment is more than the basic ROI calcs you would do on anything else. Kinda like when we bought our Diamond back. A buddy of mine printing for over 20 years tried to talk me out of it. Oh you are too young in the bizz for something like that, just get another manual and another guy and you'll get the work done. QUALITY OF LIFE came into that factor, we knew we would have to sacrifice for the tool, but you know what, that took enabled us to grow and here is is paid off and it's an M&R so we know it will be around for a long long time to come and make us money and keep us going. The CTS is all that it's cracked up to be, and having such and in depth personal experience with the service of M&R now with it, I would highly recommend the I-Image or I-Image ST over any other brand. There is a learning curve that comes into starting off with one, so having a team behind you that will be there all the way pays off dividends big time!!!
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It's all about ROI guys, forget quality of life!
;D
Yeah!!! F it man, who needs investments.
Do you think quality of life/work should be factored into a choice like a CTS? Or for you is it all about the numbers?
I don't really know if one should outweigh the other, but if one of them doesn't make sense the other better fill in that "subjective" gap. My whole argument that people either never read or forgot is that the ROI I calculated was nowhere near what some were saying they got and if the ROI was 3-4 years at our shop, or never like at Tony's shop, it's a much tougher decision. I never said I wouldn't ever buy one because the ROI isn't going to be a year or two, but that I'd still consider it because of the difference it can make in some areas. It will not yeild a huge increase in throughput at our shop like some might see because of many different factors I won't get into. At Sam's shop it allowed them to do more jobs in a week to make the ROI and the decision a no-brainer, one or two more jobs per week for our shop at that price point isn't a no-brainer. I respect the hell out of Dave but most of his comments are "I told you so" or "nobody will listen to me" but it's not easy to run out and spend 40K on something that won't make you that money back in a reasonable amount of time or increase your quality of life by 40K. It's up to everyone as an individual shop to determine if it's worth it. Our quality of life at our shop is already a piece of cake. I could basically have just about any printer in town if I wanted because of the equipment and how nice things are at our shop, so adding a CTS machine isn't going to take it from a slum to a mansion, more like a 5000 sq/ft home to a 6000 sq/ft home. Let me make this clear to everyone, I have no doubts that a CTS would make things "nicer" around here, in many different aspects, but to act like it's stupid to even question whether or not it's the greatest investment for a screen printing shop is ridiculous. You guys do remember the whole premise behind Tony's thread that started the debate don't you? Adding a CTS to his operation would hurt his production!!! Our shop is somewhere in between Tony's and Sam's, so it's not just a quality of life decision or an ROI decision, it's freaking complicated for some shops. I envy those of you who have a shop where it's not a hard decision. And I've said this numerous times as well, if you want to buy one for your shop strictly as a quality of life decision, my blessings are with you, I'm actually happy for you. But some of the comments sound like they are coming from someone who refuses to see other FACTS or can't comprehend them and that gets frustrating. One of the best production guys in our entire industry has spoken about the pros and cons, and although I'm not even close to that level, I have given a number of facts for and against but those facts against owning one at our shop don't get recognized by most. It's great for Sam and Mike, it would kill Tony's operation, so that's how I'm looking at it...the good and the bad. Everyone that owns one has commented on how great they are, and they wouldn't be without one so trust me, I understand the benefits and even though the ROI isn't where I want it to be, we'll likely get one when our screen usage gets a little higher.
With a screen usage of under 40 per day, it's more of a quality of life purchase than ROI, AT OUR SHOP. The closer you get to that 40 mark, the more it makes sense for our shop to go CTS. Shops that are using 10-15 screens per day can see a fast ROI, but not our shop, even at 20-30 screens per day. With our repeat jobs and efficiency at producing screens with our current technology, the numbers aren't as appealing as with some shops.
So to answer your question Brandt, yes and no, no and yes...it's complicated :)
come on guys..you know you cannot make money with one of those...and why would you want one? it doesn't make you go any faster?
ahahhahahah
I think Mike gets it and sees where are the savings are over film....enjoy and make more money in 2013 than 2012...get get em
sam
And then there are smartass comments like this ^. I know it sounds like I'm arguing against CTS because I have to respond to comments like these, but I LOVE THE TECHNOLOGY!!! But it's just not as cut and dried as some people will have you believe. People think I'm being short sighted when I'm actually looking at the whole picture but people like Sam will never admit that something they did wasn't the greatest thing ever. DTG? Anyone??? What about repeat jobs where the film can be used over and over again? What about the efficiency and throughput of one shop versus another in stencil development? What about the size of the initial investment and how that plays into one's ROI figures that won't be anywhere near what others will have? The fact is some shops can do twice as much with the same equipment as others doesn't seem to be understood, but maybe think about Tony's shop a little and that should help you understand. A CTS helps some shops go much faster because they were incredibly slow to begin with. Some shops like Mike's love it because their lives have become much easier and production has increased at the same time. So, a little perspective is in order when discussing this topic and that's what's missing the most.
We can open up Tony's thread to keep from muddying up Mike's. I appreciate everything Mike has told us and it goes into my bank for future decision making. There are some people to take advice from and listen to and then there are others where it's best to not listen to. Some are giving an incredibly biased opinion that has more to do with pride and arrogance than the complete story and others will give you an exact account of what's going on and their experience.
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Alan
I have publicly said that DTG was great for us...that was until we grew and decided that we did not want to have that part of our business plan...while we had it and used it, we made good money on it....but I would rather print 500 shirts on the auto vs. 25 on the dtg....
as for the entire process...like Mike said, how much time is a person using waiting for the suck down of the blanket...while that is happening we are exposing screens....and on to the next one...as for film...you have to store it, you have to retrieve it, you have to then put it on the machine and start the process....there are many many savings and I honestly believe if you spent some time in a shop that had one you would see a lot more savings...
but then again I am just a spoiled kids with cool toys...
Sam
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I am pretty set that we will never advance to a CTS till either we completely max out our printing with the one auto we have or we move on to a second auto. As of right now the CTS would not make us any money because it will not bring more printing to us, and as it is we do not print 8 hours a day so the time savings would not help much. I certainly see where it will be beneficial for a shop when they are maxed out or have multiple machines to feed. For now our newest investments are in inks, computers, and a second flash. Which we have done all of so far this year except for the ink mixing system.
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Mike, I totally agree with the second flash....I love ours...especially up here where you get the base, red white shirts...you can have that other flash and have it so sharp you can cut your finger between colors...
you going to Foxwoods this week?
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Alan, you are absolutely right about me saying what I do. I am guilty of that. I used to start every post of mine with, "in my shop". I know I am lucky to have had the chance to go CTS, and it works great in my shop. I spent a lot of times telling folks why it worked for me. I would never try to convince to buy something that isn't right for them. Here are a few things that make it right for us. Since starting back up after the flood in December of '08, we have produced 12,319 art files. Each of these files is one set up. We do A TON of art. These range from one to ten colors, so I can't really tell you how much film that would be. We do 8-10 set ups per press (3) per shift. (one shift per day only) I really and truly don't believe we could do this without a very good system that consists of CTS and pre registration. Of course there are many other factors in set ups. So just a few reasons it's a perfect fit in my shop. Is it right for you. No. Not right now, maybe never. Is it right for Sam? Only Sam really knows. I know it was an extremely wise investment for us. I'll try to temper my remarks, or better yet bite my tongue. Alan, you had every right to say what you did. I have the highest respect for you and how you do things. Hopefully this apology for my attitude, and brief explanation about what works in my shop does some good. (Alan, I think you still owe me a beer or two, also)
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Alan, you are absolutely right about me saying what I do. I am guilty of that. I used to start every post of mine with, "in my shop". I know I am lucky to have had the chance to go CTS, and it works great in my shop. I spent a lot of times telling folks why it worked for me. I would never try to convince to buy something that isn't right for them. Here are a few things that make it right for us. Since starting back up after the flood in December of '08, we have produced 12,319 art files. Each of these files is one set up. We do A TON of art. These range from one to ten colors, so I can't really tell you how much film that would be. We do 8-10 set ups per press (3) per shift. (one shift per day only) I really and truly don't believe we could do this without a very good system that consists of CTS and pre registration. Of course there are many other factors in set ups. So just a few reasons it's a perfect fit in my shop. Is it right for you. No. Not right now, maybe never. Is it right for Sam? Only Sam really knows. I know it was an extremely wise investment for us. I'll try to temper my remarks, or better yet bite my tongue. Alan, you had every right to say what you did. I have the highest respect for you and how you do things. Hopefully this apology for my attitude, and brief explanation about what works in my shop does some good. (Alan, I think you still owe me a beer or two, also)
And there above is an excellent example of a shop that can benefit from CTS. Compare your shop to ours and it is night and day, a CTS sitting in our shop would cause us to lose money no matter how you cut it. I would love to hear a person that buys a CTS simply for the quality of work life admit it is not making them a dime, even losing money on the payments, I would eat my hat if that was ever said.
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I have refrained from commenting because I am thoroughly happy for those who are embracing this technology and am watching with interest as it continues to improve. Dave never had the chance to come by but we'll have the discussion soon.
That said our presses are never down waiting for screens. Would a CTS slow us down? Quite possibly. The high speed ones run for around $60K and sorry but thats a hard sell. Not that I have a need but 60K buys me more Emb or several used autos. ROI on that equipment happens almost immediately. My last one more or less than paid off in less than two months and continues to generate more revenue daily. Accounting loves those #s.
Remember as well as we have two pre-print lines that repeat jobs in season happen weekly. Films and sometimes screens are libraried and re-used on the spot. We have zero issues with resolution and others mentioned above. We have two large format exposure units that can bang out 4 auto screens at a clip.
Alans well stated post is worth re-reading. One of the most interesting aspects of our industry is that there are almost infinite business models. Therefore there are equally infinite ways at looking at profitability. Thres more but I wish you all the best with the new toys and again will be keeping an eye on how this is evolving
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Tony, you know how much respect most all of us have here for you, but you clearly forget a major factor in equating your shop with a shop like mine. I don't have as many hands on deck as you do. So, with that said, if I can increase productivity with a tool that is in full the same amount as 1 person's annual salary, it's a no brainer for me. If I had 3 or 4 people just in the screen/pre-press/reclaiming how ever we want to categorize it, plus multiple people on presses, in-house artists, ect, it's a whole different ball of wax. Instead we have to be able to compete with shops in surrounding areas with say 10 or more autos and 20+ employees to do all the work for them. We are 4 people doing the work of a 10 person shop. The CTS, in my shop, takes the place of a couple added people without their headaches and calling in, and bla bla bla. I'm sure you can understand. Maybe for your shop, it's not the tool needed, but for us it totally is. Nutmeg Mills aka VF image wear in Tampa, only 40 minutes from us, with their 28 automatic press factory over there saw the need to install I-Image ST, they got the money, but they also see it as a necessary tool as well. I guess it's not for everyone, like an auto, I know some shops that have 6 or more manuals and a ton of guys pulling squeegees when they could have 1 or 2 autos doing the work, being more consistent, and keeping a lower labor rate but they can't seem to get over the hump of spending the dough.
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Actually I didn't forget that factor at all (with utmost respect) My point is there are quite a lot of you who will reap benefits from this as the technology stands right now. I'm just hearing a little bit of "If it works for me then surely it must for you"
Not always sage advice
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I'm pretty sure there's an upgrade in quality (of the product) with CTS. You're not exposing through the glass and the light can't get around the image on the film. Also, if you use CTS with a registration system (like Tri Lock), you eliminate the possibilty of error the film placement step has.
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Mike, I totally agree with the second flash....I love ours...especially up here where you get the base, red white shirts...you can have that other flash and have it so sharp you can cut your finger between colors...
you going to Foxwoods this week?
No Foxwoods this year, we haven't gone for several years. The quality of the NES show has gone down so drastically. I am still pissed at the last time we went, I got in to a big argument with a Brother rep about their DTG, he was blowing so much smoke up peoples arses and i was contradicting him he got huffy as hell with me. But hey i care more about the people than the corporate power machine, and seriously when say this guy was BS-ing I mean really really BS-ing. I think he must have worked for Fresner when they were selling TJets lol.
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Alan, you are absolutely right about me saying what I do. I am guilty of that. I used to start every post of mine with, "in my shop". I know I am lucky to have had the chance to go CTS, and it works great in my shop. I spent a lot of times telling folks why it worked for me. I would never try to convince to buy something that isn't right for them. Here are a few things that make it right for us. Since starting back up after the flood in December of '08, we have produced 12,319 art files. Each of these files is one set up. We do A TON of art. These range from one to ten colors, so I can't really tell you how much film that would be. We do 8-10 set ups per press (3) per shift. (one shift per day only) I really and truly don't believe we could do this without a very good system that consists of CTS and pre registration. Of course there are many other factors in set ups. So just a few reasons it's a perfect fit in my shop. Is it right for you. No. Not right now, maybe never. Is it right for Sam? Only Sam really knows. I know it was an extremely wise investment for us. I'll try to temper my remarks, or better yet bite my tongue. Alan, you had every right to say what you did. I have the highest respect for you and how you do things. Hopefully this apology for my attitude, and brief explanation about what works in my shop does some good. (Alan, I think you still owe me a beer or two, also)
I would accept your apology Dave but you don't need to give me one. My comments need more of an apology than anything you said. I always will respect your opinions, especially those that regard tools and equipment that I don't own. It just happens that our shop is more like Tony's in screen throughput so I do lean that direction when it comes to CTS. But I like new technology, and I love new toys. I like I get frustrated sometimes by comments made where there is as much or more evidence to the contrary that some don't seem to recognize. This next thing is part bragging but all fact, we develop stencils and setup jobs very fast, much faster than average and way faster than any other shop I've been in and that plays a huge role in my decision making. I should not have said some of the things I did towards Sam and I apologize for that. I bite my tongue most of the time I see something written that I disagree with and when I finally do respond it's got way more behind it than it should.
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How about this? If anyone is looking at CTS an wants to know what it did for us, e-mail or call me. Otherwise consider my tongue bitten :P
(Just trying for a clean break on my part)
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Totally got ya Tony! Hey, there are still guys out there, one that I know of for sure, 24 employee shop, who still film outputs with an HP laser printer on 11x17 architect vellum and still to this day tiles almost all of his jobs, he couldn't see that inkjet was better for him, but with that said, he still puts out a sweet product, makes a huge profit margin, employs quite a few families in his small town and has a 48 hour standard turn around. Imagine what he could do if he got rid of a few of those manuals, added another auto and some other up to date pieces of gear, but he is comfy where he is and I can't hate on him for that, he taught me and gave me my start and thinks we were nuts when we bought a 6 head Tajima, and an auto, but everyone is in their own boat, so to say. I know we made the right move, my wife and I both feel that way. She is normally the one to say, dude, NO!! If she didn't we'd probably be out already cause I would have added another auto pre-maturlly, but she would watch me babysit film, grid them, you know the process. Then she really researched this for us as well and said do it. Plus, ha, she got me out of her way and in my own private office with it now, that's just a bonus :D
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Alan
I am the last one who needs an apology...so no need...we all are passionate about our businesses and this industry...
sam
also Mike...I will keep an eye out for the dtg rep blowing smoke up peoples ass...since I know how and why the work the way they do..
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Totally got ya Tony! Hey, there are still guys out there, one that I know of for sure, 24 employee shop, who still film outputs with an HP laser printer on 11x17 architect vellum and still to this day tiles almost all of his jobs, he couldn't see that inkjet was better for him, but with that said, he still puts out a sweet product, makes a huge profit margin, employs quite a few families in his small town and has a 48 hour standard turn around. Imagine what he could do if he got rid of a few of those manuals, added another auto and some other up to date pieces of gear, but he is comfy where he is and I can't hate on him for that, he taught me and gave me my start and thinks we were nuts when we bought a 6 head Tajima, and an auto, but everyone is in their own boat, so to say. I know we made the right move, my wife and I both feel that way. She is normally the one to say, dude, NO!! If she didn't we'd probably be out already cause I would have added another auto pre-maturlly, but she would watch me babysit film, grid them, you know the process. Then she really researched this for us as well and said do it. Plus, ha, she got me out of her way and in my own private office with it now, that's just a bonus :D
Just goes to show how different we all are even though we are in the same business!
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Totally got ya Tony! Hey, there are still guys out there, one that I know of for sure, 24 employee shop, who still film outputs with an HP laser printer on 11x17 architect vellum and still to this day tiles almost all of his jobs, he couldn't see that inkjet was better for him, but with that said, he still puts out a sweet product, makes a huge profit margin, employs quite a few families in his small town and has a 48 hour standard turn around. Imagine what he could do if he got rid of a few of those manuals, added another auto and some other up to date pieces of gear, but he is comfy where he is and I can't hate on him for that, he taught me and gave me my start and thinks we were nuts when we bought a 6 head Tajima, and an auto, but everyone is in their own boat, so to say. I know we made the right move, my wife and I both feel that way. She is normally the one to say, dude, NO!! If she didn't we'd probably be out already cause I would have added another auto pre-maturlly, but she would watch me babysit film, grid them, you know the process. Then she really researched this for us as well and said do it. Plus, ha, she got me out of her way and in my own private office with it now, that's just a bonus :D
I,e told this before, there is a large print shop in the New Haven area that still to this day buys strictly wooden pre-meshed screens, uses them once and tosses them. His product is perfect and the owner is pretty much rich. His reasoning is sound as hell if one can open their mind enough to accept it. He has no chemistry period, his employees spends zero time cleaning and reclaiming, and his work is strictly university athletics, all low color count but large large runs. The cost of a pre-meshed wood screen is pennies compared to time/labor/chemistry that goes in to maintaining screens. Like Tony has been stating every shops business model is different and as long as everyone is making the money and quaility of work environment is good then its really no ones place to question their procedures.
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Starter Sportswear?
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Mike
I met a guy at the cape like that...his screen charges are $25.00 screen and the sells them when done for 8 bucks and he does not clean them, does not do anything but coat them, burn them, uses them and sells them...still with ink in them....
not a bad business model in some respects..
sam
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Starter Sportswear?
Starter no way, they burned down or something. We used to do some of their printing ages ago. I forget the name of this dudes place, his shop is very incognito no public retail etc. straight up athletic printing only.
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I don't really know if one should outweigh the other,
I think it has to in some shop's. By that I mean it could be either way depending on the context of the shop. Some shops its about every dime the leaves the building being amazing on it's return as a quarter or something. For others its about having free time back, which you will gladly pay for. I think each shop has to look at it differently in context of the situation. My whole point is basically everyone should be considering both, even a mix of both. There are arguments both ways, but the reality is while most shops here all do the same thing at the end of the day, we all do it much differently and while one way may be better for one, doesn't mean it isn't for another.
In my itty bitty shop, a CTS isn't that expensive in context. It's a lot cheaper than most employees. So much like my choice to buy a auto before most of you would have and it worked out great by increasing out put. I think a CTS could work the same here.
Over all I am saying it seemed like some only want to do the math on it, I think that is important, but it's not the only factor. You have to also consider if it makes your job easier, life easier, and product better.
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Actually I didn't forget that factor at all (with utmost respect) My point is there are quite a lot of you who will reap benefits from this as the technology stands right now. I'm just hearing a little bit of "If it works for me then surely it must for you"
Not always sage advice
I agree with you. Doesn't plug in the same at all shop's!
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Sam, printing, burning and washing out some sim process screens today, capturing 1% dots. Pretty pretty friggin awesome!!!!!!