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screen printing => General Screen Printing => Topic started by: dirkdiggler on December 01, 2012, 07:46:44 AM
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Thought some of us would enjoy it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dn2jG9QWqa4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dn2jG9QWqa4)
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Good vid!.
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Nice vid
I never understood how 12 colors is better than a 4 color process in a production facility. Can someone explain to me what the advantage would be actually using 12 colors opposes to say 6? Seems like a ton of work.
RT Screen Designs
www.rtscreendesigns.com
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Nice vid
I never understood how 12 colors is better than a 4 color process in a production facility. Can someone explain to me what the advantage would be actually using 12 colors opposes to say 6? Seems like a ton of work.
RT Screen Designs
[url=http://www.rtscreendesigns.com]www.rtscreendesigns.com[/url] ([url]http://www.rtscreendesigns.com[/url])
quick answer: depth of color and ability to make a print run faster and look amazing on whites and darks. Yes its more work but the results is worth it.
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Nice video. Did you see the flood bars and squeegees on the first press? Is that a double winged attachment or something?
"over 700 thousand shirts in the last 60 days" Just under 12 thousand a day. Nice...
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Nice video. Did you see the flood bars and squeegees on the first press? Is that a double winged attachment or something?
"over 700 thousand shirts in the last 60 days" Just under 12 thousand a day. Nice...
those are M&R ink traps.
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I know I'll never reach his level of expertise, but I'll have a lot of fun trying. Very inspirational video.
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I've spent some time with Andy and Sherry. They are very modest and unassuming about what they do.
The ink room is a bit of a mess but other than that it is a well run place as you can imagine.
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Nice vid
I never understood how 12 colors is better than a 4 color process in a production facility. Can someone explain to me what the advantage would be actually using 12 colors opposes to say 6? Seems like a ton of work.
Sweets to answer your question more control of the colors being printed, even thought process can make a ton of colors you tend to lose contorl of some, and process my not give you that exact color you might be looking for.
Darryl
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What a history...very very cool..
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One reason that his stuff is so sharp is that he uses an old school Imagesettter
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One reason that his stuff is so sharp is that he uses an old school Imagesettter
BINGO! No comparison when doing extremely high end work. Some don't see the difference. but it's in the fine details.
1 example is dot gain. The dots that come off of a digital printer has gain on it already. Most do not adjust for this before hand. For example, dots are fatter on a 65lpi halftone on a digital print. If you print a 65 lpi on a true imagesetter, many people would be surprised to see that they cannot hold lower than a 10% DOT AT 65LPI. You could, but you would need to re-evaluate your mesh threads, emulsion, exposure times and coating process.
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One reason that his stuff is so sharp is that he uses an old school Imagesettter
BINGO! No comparison when doing extremely high end work. Some don't see the difference. but it's in the fine details.
1 example is dot gain. The dots that come off of a digital printer has gain on it already. Most do not adjust for this before hand. For example, dots are fatter on a 65lpi halftone on a digital print. If you print a 65 lpi on a true imagesetter, many people would be surprised to see that they cannot hold lower than a 10% DOT AT 65LPI. You could, but you would need to re-evaluate your mesh threads, emulsion, exposure times and coating process.
I tested several RIPs straight out of the box and they were in the 57-72% for a 50% dot. We could originally hold a 4% dot and after calibrating the film output that same dot was about 7-8%! And this was on the film that gained the least.
pierre
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And as much as Andy does not like too much publicity, he RULES the simulated process in USA! I have seen some good prints from other companies and they just don't compare. . .
thanx for posting the link!
pierre
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pierre, I would have to disagree. I think target graphics is running at the top these days.
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Does anyone have some up close loupe pictures of any of these super nice shirts? I'd really like to see one that came from a production run showing all the dots up close.
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Danny,
I have a couple of his gold winning shirts and can email you the pictures. Andy didn't like the idea of me posting his stuff too much so I promised I'd ask him first. Email should not be a problem though . . .
pierre
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pierre, I would have to disagree. I think target graphics is running at the top these days.
Rick we might be talking apples and oranges here. Or perhaps different varieties of apples. I believe Target G specializes in true process on darks where Andy's specialties is Sim
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Tony,
I would not say that I disagree with you, but might point out what I consider a major factor. I've held over 15 samples of Targets best in his portfolio in my hands and on dark garments they all visually look only as good as a good sim process ( on darks). Not really superior. That fact that they were process on darks...for years earlier than most were doing is a 5 star. I will say tho, they all had a heavy hand. Flashed in between to maintain the crisp dot but making it feel 20 years back in time for soft hand technologies.
In addition, they tout 75-120 line screen. I have seen many prints that came out better using 65 line from other shops. Then there is the concern that touting their use of 120 lpi is merely a marketing ploy. I believe that what they actually use in a 120 line screen is still only really equivalent to a full a 75lpi or 80 lpi using a true imagesetters...or the equivalent to a 65lpi on a digital printer.
For process prints being on black tees, I give them 10.
For overall appearance of the print, I give them a 8.
For soft hand feel, I give them a 5.
This is just my opinion and an experience from samples I still have and what I've seen ( from 5 years ago).
They may be even better now.
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Agreed on all points. Seems like they and Andy are so darned comfortable with plastisol that it will be hard to embrace WB. Whatever works for them and makes them succesful is the answer. I know Pierre at least is working with DC UBs and that may get him just that much more over the curve.
On a side note on some Sim process on darks Mark Coudray and others have pioneered the use of as many as three white screens. A high mesh semi transparent UB, Lower mesh opaque UB, and a final crush or hilight white. Sounds like overkill but when you see the results (especially if you get a chance to see one print in person), you'll get it.
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I seen both shops work, and they both do a very great job..Andy and them I would almost have to say are the leaders when it comes to concert or music tees, but here is the real question. I know we all put our heart and soul into trying to make the best print we can make, but does the end user really care about how it was printed or just really love the graphic design?
Darryl
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I seen both shops work, and they both do a very great job..Andy and them I would almost have to say are the leaders when it comes to concert or music tees, but here is the real question. I know we all put our heart and soul into trying to make the best print we can make, but does the end user really care about how it was printed or just really love the graphic design?
Darryl
Like everything the end user is made up of many levels of people. Some notice more than others. I have a friend that has been in the design field for many years and was blown away at the detail that we can put on a shirt. I would guess many of us have not even seen the quality of a "award winning print". So to answer your question no the end user can not tell or even inspects a shirt close enough to tell. High detail and great looking shirts (award quality) are not for the end user. They are for screen printing shops to show their capability and prove to customers that they are the shop to go with. From 5 feet away you can't tell the difference of a award winning print to a 10th place shirt. Its just a shirt to the end user.
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Can't disagree with anything you said there Gear, awards are great for when a customer walks in and they see those awards, but on the other hand I thinking these type printers don't deal with what I deal with WAlK-INS wanting a million dollar shirt for 12 bucks LOL.
Darryl
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Can't disagree with anything you said there Gear, awards are great for when a customer walks in and they see those awards, but on the other hand I thinking these type printers don't deal with what I deal with WAlK-INS wanting a million dollar shirt for 12 bucks LOL.
Darryl
$12 bucks? The guy down the street will do them for $5!
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there are two reasons to be an award winning shop.
First one is obviously marketing. We can get into the doors that would otherwise be shut (this has to do with what we can print rather than what we have on the wall, but you can't win awards without a good print, so they are related). It also helps that we don't have ppl asking how long have you been printing when trying to sell jobs. They see the quality of the print and never ask. If I had to answer that I just started four years ago (or at the point when we won the first award, less than two years) many ppl would balk and walk away. Now they just look at the prints
The other one is the quality and confidence in your work. Very seldom do we get something and scratch our head trying to figure out if we can do it. The knowledge of how things work helps troubleshoot the problems rather than just guessing or doing a trial and error adjustments. Being good at something is always a good thing, 'awards or not. . .
pierre
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Can't disagree with anything you said there Gear, awards are great for when a customer walks in and they see those awards, but on the other hand I thinking these type printers don't deal with what I deal with WAlK-INS wanting a million dollar shirt for 12 bucks LOL.
Darryl
we do actually deal with that a lot.
We offer them options though. Anything from one color on a Gildan to high end simulated process on a $7 shirt. It is what I call "the size of your toolbox". The bigger your toolbox, more customers you can service and better you can help them. If in the end they chose a Gildan, we can load the artwork with halftones and present a kick ass print for about the same price as the next door shop does in spot. Final result is a happier end user and better value for the money. They do understand that and often chose to go that route.
pierre
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Agreed on all points. Seems like they and Andy are so darned comfortable with plastisol that it will be hard to embrace WB. Whatever works for them and makes them succesful is the answer. I know Pierre at least is working with DC UBs and that may get him just that much more over the curve.
On a side note on some Sim process on darks Mark Coudray and others have pioneered the use of as many as three white screens. A high mesh semi transparent UB, Lower mesh opaque UB, and a final crush or hilight white. Sounds like overkill but when you see the results (especially if you get a chance to see one print in person), you'll get it.
we beat Target at two different competitions this year. They are very, very good, but Andy is on a whole different level. Let me put this into numbers. On a 10 scale, Target is an 8-8.5. Andy is 9.9. Few years back, looking at Andy's stuff, we were not even in the ballpark. I'd say we were a solid 7. There is a big gap from 7 to 10 and closer you get to the top harder it is to advance. I would say our work is on par with Target now. We only did a small number of prints with the discharge underbase, but as we get used to it, I can see us moving up to a 9 in the next 12-18 months. In my head, I know what needs to be done to get to about 9.2 and then comes the Andy voodoo. These are proprietary things he does and tweaks done for his shop that would not even work for us. Add to that his meticulous nature and 30 years of experience and it really is Voodoo. We have Rick Roth coming to help out with few things, and I am hoping to get a little bit of insight into what it's going to take to move well into the 9's. Next is a consulting visit from Mark Coudray which due to it's cost will have to wait at least a year.
Let's also make something perfectly clear! These super high end prints are not your average production stuff. Seps and sampling for award winning level prints is a better part of $1k before even getting started! artwork is often valued in thousands of dollars! For the most part, if we get a piece of art that lends itself to the competition, the extra work and expenses are out of our pocket! Regular prints get separated by Dan and have seps fees and sampling fees of around $200-$250. These are good looking prints, very solid and clean but will not win anything. This is the stuff we print almost every day. We use the lower count mesh, cheaper seps, we are less critical on the color correctness and so on. These are probably similar to the best work your average shop can do, but nothing to write home about. The very high end stuff is only done about once a month at the best. . .
pierre
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Pierre, in my book you guys do some really kick azz work, but here is my point in my shop I,m just a spot color guy, could I do high end work Helzz yes I could, but for my customer base they couldn't pay for the seps. Every now and them I dream of being you guys knocking out some very killer prints that makes everyones jaws drop, but then bills come and back to spot color my bread and butter. I do hate when a customer walks in the door with some really good art and I know I,m not getting the job, not because I can't do it, because the customer does not understand the cost of doing it. They want a hand full of shirts not knowing the seps are going to cause more than there little shirt order, just had one a few weeks back would have been a killer job to print, but unless I can give Dan's time away for free no dice.
Darryl
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Pierre, in my book you guys do some really kick azz work, but here is my point in my shop I,m just a spot color guy, could I do high end work Helzz yes I could, but for my customer base they couldn't pay for the seps. Every now and them I dream of being you guys knocking out some very killer prints that makes everyones jaws drop, but then bills come and back to spot color my bread and butter. I do hate when a customer walks in the door with some really good art and I know I,m not getting the job, not because I can't do it, because the customer does not understand the cost of doing it. They want a hand full of shirts not knowing the seps are going to cause more than there little shirt order, just had one a few weeks back would have been a killer job to print, but unless I can give Dan's time away for free no dice.
Darryl
100% understand and agree that you have to service the market you have available to you. But here is another thought . . . Can you expand your market?
pierre
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When I first I took a class down in southern California and they "taught" us how to print 4CP and simulated. I asked the owner of the shop how much they do a year in sales. His response was 2. something million. My next question was how many years have you been in business. His response was 5. I then ask how many times in those 5 years and millions of dollars in sales have you printed 4CP and Simulated work. He said twice!!! That did it for me. I didn't "need" to learn it, it was just nice to do.
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My first 4 months in business I didn't even do one halftone job. I turned down a few because I didn't have a rip. It wasn't until I got a customer needing 1700 shirts that I learned how to do halftones.
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When I first I took a class down in southern California and they "taught" us how to print 4CP and simulated. I asked the owner of the shop how much they do a year in sales. His response was 2. something million. My next question was how many years have you been in business. His response was 5. I then ask how many times in those 5 years and millions of dollars in sales have you printed 4CP and Simulated work. He said twice!!! That did it for me. I didn't "need" to learn it, it was just nice to do.
we print simulated about once a day. It all depends on your market. . .
pierre
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Pierre, to answer your question yes we could, but it would take more of a commitment from the wife and I which right now is just not in us. Thats one of the reason why we don't get into some of the more detail stuff, just the locals, years ago I could sit down and spend 3 to 4 hours or more on art. Now days quick fast and looks good is the ticket, I,ve learn over the years what my market can bare and which customers are a sure bet and those that kick tires. I would not want a shop that had 50 autos running I think I would go stare crazy with trying to feed that monster, but I,m sure some folks on here would love to try.
Darryl
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Those that have a high stake in the sales of that design...know the difference between an average print and an award winner. Strike that. They want the award winning quality on every job you do for them. If its not on par, it gets revised. These are the customers that pay $150-300.00 for you to set up a 10 color print just for 3 sample shirts to get approved. Then once approved, the order is usually worth you setting up again tomorrow for the run. Often times you hide that sample cost into the price.
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And there are companies like my friends at JSR that print award winning quality graphics all day every day yet never enter any contests. It's all rock and roll to them and word of mouth is everything. To them winning awards gains them nothing. Just a different way to look at things.
www.jsrdirect.com (http://www.jsrdirect.com)
And theres a lot more companies out ther just like them.
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I remember checking out that site. We have a member here that is an artist for them. Pops in only every so often.
Yes, I've told Pierre, we have many good shops in retail that print great prints every day as part of the norm. It's to be expected.
Many of these we will never hear of because they like flying under the radar of competitors. Only the customers get to log in and see the line.
If your lucky, you can catch them at a small show where they have the product out on display. even larger Co's don't even display out to the general attendee's. You must pass security 1st and show that you are a retailer before going into the "walled off booths. Nike, Rebock, JCPenny's big retail places like that.
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If you're talking about Zelco he's not an artist but he's been there forever. Also worth mentioning are Liquid Blue and The Mountain. The way they see it the awards are judged and viewed by peers, competitors, and colleagues not customers.
That said I totally agree with Pierres direction.
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This is a discharge print (mock up) we did 4 ys ago that we'll reprise nxt year. Won't enter it but it will be impressive in the reception lounge. Print is 70 dpi 10 color discharge color no base. I don't keep up with the contests but curious if there is a category for it yet.
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Tony, thats a good looking print, but if I was a regular Joe off the street I'd think that was a pretty simple print, being in the biz I know better and know that it took a lot of work to get it to look that good. Question how do you educate customers on prints without insulting there intelelect, I get sent stuff all the time and know in seconds what its going to take to reproduce the art, but I have explain why the price is so high for your 36 shirt order.
Darryl
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This is a discharge print (mock up) we did 4 ys ago that we'll reprise nxt year. Won't enter it but it will be impressive in the reception lounge. Print is 70 dpi 10 color discharge color no base. I don't keep up with the contests but curious if there is a category for it yet.
which royal blue shirt will you discharge that on, i have had trouble with blues.
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Tony, thats a good looking print, but if I was a regular Joe off the street I'd think that was a pretty simple print, being in the biz I know better and know that it took a lot of work to get it to look that good. Question how do you educate customers on prints without insulting there intelelect, I get sent stuff all the time and know in seconds what its going to take to reproduce the art, but I have explain why the price is so high for your 36 shirt order.
Darryl
Nowadays, I explain that screen printing is not always the best process for certain jobs (your ten color 36 pieces for instance)
I briefly explain about DTG, and either take the job and sub it out, (for lights) or suggest that the custy does a little more searching, but at least now knows what to look or ask for.
The brief education is generally well received, and has sometimes resulted in more practical jobs from them down the line.
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Mockup was incorrectly placed on a royal shirt. Shirts will be chilli red, texas orange mustard etc. We certainly don't offer it to the average Joe and a print like that has a 1,000 pc minimum and a steep sep charge. They have the money. People sail in from all over the world to attend. They went back to simple vector art and sales dropped significantly. Something like from 90% to 60% in comparisson to ticket sales. In this case they were leaving money on the table.
I always begin by mentioning money and minmums right from the get go (or rather the sales people do).
That qualifies them right there. A tour of the facility seals it usually. Once they see what goes into pre-press they get it......or move on to something more affordable.
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Most off the street uneducated customers try to compare what we do to paper inkjet printing, they simply cannot grasp why we cant do like some cheap lexmark printer can especially with todays technology. I will never forget trying to explain to a lady why her print would require four screens for a 4cp job, she actually said to me it needs to be done with 3 screens because that is how RGB is printed. WTF?