TSB
General => General Discussion and ??? => Topic started by: jsheridan on January 18, 2013, 11:26:01 AM
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Home all day with sick kids.. yeah!
SO lets have a question day..
ask away and I'll do my best to answer it, screen printing related of course 8)
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Ok here's one
How much ink could a screenprinter print if a screenprinter could print ink?
Have Fun with kids :)
Darryl
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What should the first drink be at the show today? Jack, Rum, or beer? Please help. ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
Signed,
Confused
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What's the easiest, fastest way to eliminate all posts by a trouble-making poster?
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Ok here's one
How much ink could a screenprinter print if a screenprinter could print ink?
Have Fun with kids :)
Darryl
What's the screen tension and open mesh area %?
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How long is a piece of string?
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I'll bite.
Since you once printed in my neck of the woods, what white ink did you prefer to use in the deep winter when the back rooms are 55 degrees and even the loosest white is semi cured concrete?
Second to that what modifier would you recommend to help cold whites in the winter, I have tried wilflex curable reducer but it really throws off the flash times. Thats a shame because it really makes a white nice when used correctly. Currently I just toss in a tiny bit of soft hand to help it run smoother.
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What should the first drink be at the show today? Jack, Rum, or beer? Please help. ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
Signed,
Confused
A seasoned drinker knows that when the brown joins the game, their's no turning back so start with the light amber beers and work it up throughout the day and be sure to invite the mexicans just before going home so they start a fight and cause everyone to be evicted from the party the moment you walk into the hotel room. Refill with a bottle of pedialite and goto bed..
repeat next day..
Enjoy and drink responsibly!!
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What's the easiest, fastest way to eliminate all posts by a trouble-making poster?
Pull the tarp of the delorean you have in the backyard, fire it up and go back in time to before the poster was there and wipe out his posts.. then fly back in time for the dinner tonight.
Have fun!!
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How long is a piece of string?
Are we talking braided material to form a rope or would you like that in C+ code?
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I'll bite.
Since you once printed in my neck of the woods, what white ink did you prefer to use in the deep winter when the back rooms are 55 degrees and even the loosest white is semi cured concrete?
Second to that what modifier would you recommend to help cold whites in the winter, I have tried wilflex curable reducer but it really throws off the flash times. Thats a shame because it really makes a white nice when used correctly. Currently I just toss in a tiny bit of soft hand to help it run smoother.
Make a hot box.. some plywood to make a box, cut some hole the size of the buckets then put some 100w light bulbs along the bottom.. if you can still find them or a small ceramic heater from target on low. keep the temp in the box at 70 degrees and your ink will print like it's a warm summer day.
I like to use a dab of reducer or clear base depending on the ink.. some are creamy and they like to travel up squeegees so I want to break that stick and get some slide in the ink, some are stringy gooey that like to puddle away from the squeegee and again reducer can help to break that string while others seem chalky or thick and really need to be thinned. it's mostly a personal preference and related to the kind of printing you do. Manual printers prefer thinner inks as it's easier to print where the autos will pull HD in a single pass.
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That was me yesterday, one kid and a sick wife (bigger baby than the 3 year old).
I've been thinking about EOM, the percentages for different mesh counts, where the "sweet spot" is for each mesh count, exactly how stencil thickness affects ink deposit and where it's not important once you have a decent edge, so in your opinion, for a 110T, what EOMR do you think is the target? 15, 20, 25%? Different for screens used for underbasing? Stand alone white, pfp on darks? We could get into all the different mesh counts and top colors on UB's, spot colors on light garments, but let's just stick with your low mesh, UB or stand alone white prints on darks.
I've got screens at 20% all the way up to 100%, and depending on the artwork, stencil thickness absolutely affects the ink deposit for some stuff, other, more open print areas aren't affected at all by stencil thickness and almost exclusively thread thickness. That's what makes the discussion of proper EOM so difficult for me. My personal opinion is for underbasing you don't need that much, 20-25% assuming you use the right mesh count, but say a white print on a black 50/50 shirt, you have to have enough ink down to keep the shirt from peaking through and those 40-50% EOM screens work so much better for those types of prints.
I've tried to measure the stencil thickness/ink deposit relation on tees but the difference in thickness of the shirt from spot to spot makes it almost impossible to do this. Any suggestions on what substrate to use for this? Pellons perhaps? I don't know if I have any but I've got some embroidery backing next door which is the same thing. I've got 2 100/55 screens coated, one coated 3/2, the other 2/1 and there is about 70 microns difference in stencil thickness between the two, same artwork obviously, both 26 newtons. I was going to put these on the same printhead, with all the same settings.
Over the years I've coated screens with every different stencil thickness and we've had success with most everything that was at least 15% but there is a line where we stop seeing positives and that seems to be around 30% for your low mesh 100/55, 110/81, 123/70, 135/45, etc. Some of the stencils in the 100% range become too thick and the surface tension and the distance the ink has to travel becomes problematic, not to mention the thickness of the ink deposit becomes ridiculous.
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That was me yesterday, one kid and a sick wife (bigger baby than the 3 year old).
I've been thinking about EOM, the percentages for different mesh counts, where the "sweet spot" is for each mesh count, exactly how stencil thickness affects ink deposit and where it's not important once you have a decent edge, so in your opinion, for a 110T, what EOMR do you think is the target? 15, 20, 25%? Different for screens used for underbasing? Stand alone white, pfp on darks? We could get into all the different mesh counts and top colors on UB's, spot colors on light garments, but let's just stick with your low mesh, UB or stand alone white prints on darks.
I've got screens at 20% all the way up to 100%, and depending on the artwork, stencil thickness absolutely affects the ink deposit for some stuff, other, more open print areas aren't affected at all by stencil thickness and almost exclusively thread thickness. That's what makes the discussion of proper EOM so difficult for me. My personal opinion is for underbasing you don't need that much, 20-25% assuming you use the right mesh count, but say a white print on a black 50/50 shirt, you have to have enough ink down to keep the shirt from peaking through and those 40-50% EOM screens work so much better for those types of prints.
I've tried to measure the stencil thickness/ink deposit relation on tees but the difference in thickness of the shirt from spot to spot makes it almost impossible to do this. Any suggestions on what substrate to use for this? Pellons perhaps? I don't know if I have any but I've got some embroidery backing next door which is the same thing. I've got 2 100/55 screens coated, one coated 3/2, the other 2/1 and there is about 70 microns difference in stencil thickness between the two, same artwork obviously, both 26 newtons. I was going to put these on the same printhead, with all the same settings.
Over the years I've coated screens with every different stencil thickness and we've had success with most everything that was at least 15% but there is a line where we stop seeing positives and that seems to be around 30% for your low mesh 100/55, 110/81, 123/70, 135/45, etc. Some of the stencils in the 100% range become too thick and the surface tension and the distance the ink has to travel becomes problematic, not to mention the thickness of the ink deposit becomes ridiculous.
Hey Alan if you are just trying to get accurate ink deposit thickness only then print on to smooth polyester. The ink sits right on top and is exact from piece to piece.
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You could also get a quarter piece of plexi or some other plastic to act as a sandwich to keep it more "averaged" thickness of shirt.
If trying to read the shirt density with our meters that little needle point just won't cut it on knit fabric. plastic would read right through and then you would know shirt is X and shirt + Ink is Y. Do the math! ;)
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That was me yesterday, one kid and a sick wife (bigger baby than the 3 year old).
I've been thinking about EOM, the percentages for different mesh counts, where the "sweet spot" is for each mesh count, exactly how stencil thickness affects ink deposit and where it's not important once you have a decent edge, so in your opinion, for a 110T, what EOMR do you think is the target? 15, 20, 25%? Different for screens used for underbasing? Stand alone white, pfp on darks? We could get into all the different mesh counts and top colors on UB's, spot colors on light garments, but let's just stick with your low mesh, UB or stand alone white prints on darks.
I've got screens at 20% all the way up to 100%, and depending on the artwork, stencil thickness absolutely affects the ink deposit for some stuff, other, more open print areas aren't affected at all by stencil thickness and almost exclusively thread thickness. That's what makes the discussion of proper EOM so difficult for me. My personal opinion is for underbasing you don't need that much, 20-25% assuming you use the right mesh count, but say a white print on a black 50/50 shirt, you have to have enough ink down to keep the shirt from peaking through and those 40-50% EOM screens work so much better for those types of prints.
I've tried to measure the stencil thickness/ink deposit relation on tees but the difference in thickness of the shirt from spot to spot makes it almost impossible to do this. Any suggestions on what substrate to use for this? Pellons perhaps? I don't know if I have any but I've got some embroidery backing next door which is the same thing. I've got 2 100/55 screens coated, one coated 3/2, the other 2/1 and there is about 70 microns difference in stencil thickness between the two, same artwork obviously, both 26 newtons. I was going to put these on the same printhead, with all the same settings.
Over the years I've coated screens with every different stencil thickness and we've had success with most everything that was at least 15% but there is a line where we stop seeing positives and that seems to be around 30% for your low mesh 100/55, 110/81, 123/70, 135/45, etc. Some of the stencils in the 100% range become too thick and the surface tension and the distance the ink has to travel becomes problematic, not to mention the thickness of the ink deposit becomes ridiculous.
EOM is one of those weird standards that have to be isolated on a per shop basis. You may use Chromoline blue which is really thick while I use Ulano WR25 which is very thin. The end result would measure two distinctly different EOM's when coated the same. This is in part to why I recommend once you find an emulsion you like, stick with it as long as you can. You have to resist sales and the bucket of the month club. Once you're done this and tested every coated/printed EOM's across your mesh counts, you'll have a log of what different EOM's result in. Refer to this chart before you decide what mesh to use for that job, in Essene, you're engineering each print job to fit inside your shop's parameters. If you don't have this set, then every job you run will have a level of mystery to it as you try and hit that white on a 50/50 with a 1x2 screen and you can't quite get rid of the fibers so you p/f/p to get through the run with the intention of next time.. i'll try a higher EOM but when next time comes, you are or were 'to busy' to test last week so you grab a screen and shoot in the dark hoping for better results.
To best address the 110, first determine what you're going to print and then coat accordingly. it's such a wide used mesh count for everything from specialty inks to 1 hit whites that a set coating method won't fit all jobs. Coat these types of screen only after you know what's going on them. Takes some planning but when done right, you can get that 1 hit on 50/50 with the right mesh/tension/ink combo.
You can print on some transfer paper to measure your ink film thickness. Set your squeegee pressure as perfect as you can then print a real one, Pass it through the dryer and use your meter or you can even use a razor blade, cut the ink peel it back, then using a microscope loupe look at the edge and visually read the height.
The down side to thick stencil is the ability of the ink to get into and then out of the mesh tubes.. think of each 'hole' in the mesh as a capillarity tube and the ink is a cylinder inside that tube.. through the cap effect, when wet ink touches the shirt, it is pulled out of the tube to rest on the mesh.. if the ink isn't slippery enough to overcome the surface tension of the cap tube, old mesh gets rough and those little mini thread hairs grab onto the ink increasing the tension to the point of overload, the ink cylinder will the break off in the tube and leave ink behind.. next flood that tube is now overloaded and you start to get dot gain followed up by ghost edging and the end result to compensate for that is to add more squeegee pressure to get the ink to pass in a single hit and now you're crushing the ink into the shirt and the prints surface becomes rough.
same head testing is a good thing.. set your pressure then switch out screens.. you can even use different blades in dif heads.. go from soft to hard and your test sheet just tripled in design.
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You could also get a quarter piece of plexi or some other plastic to act as a sandwich to keep it more "averaged" thickness of shirt.
If trying to read the shirt density with our meters that little needle point just won't cut it on knit fabric. plastic would read right through and then you would know shirt is X and shirt + Ink is Y. Do the math! ;)
You have to account for off contact.. plexi is usually 1/8 thick and you can't send it down the dryer.
use transfer paper as you can send it down the dryer and take readings of dry ink. Wet ink is in a different state and requires the heat set to get accurate results as the plasticizer expands to adsorb the resins and pigments. This expansion can and does make a difference in readings.
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My understanding was that EOM only effected deposit thickness in very close proximity to the emulsion edge. Great for fairly fine detail, but effectively null in large open area prints no?
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My understanding was that EOM only effected deposit thickness in very close proximity to the emulsion edge. Great for fairly fine detail, but effectively null in large open area prints no?
Yes that's true with large open areas. We counter that with elevated screen tensions and 1/2 tone base plates.
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What is an easy thing every shop can do that does not cost anything and will in the long run make them more money?
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What is an easy thing every shop can do that does not cost anything and will in the long run make them more money?
I know this is John's thread, but I got an answer for this one...knowledge.
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What is an easy thing every shop can do that does not cost anything and will in the long run make them more money?
Stage.
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What is an easy thing every shop can do that does not cost anything and will in the long run make them more money?
I know this is John's thread, but I got an answer for this one...knowledge.
Be a great leader of your people and show that you care about your business.
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You could also get a quarter piece of plexi or some other plastic to act as a sandwich to keep it more "averaged" thickness of shirt.
If trying to read the shirt density with our meters that little needle point just won't cut it on knit fabric. plastic would read right through and then you would know shirt is X and shirt + Ink is Y. Do the math! ;)
You have to account for off contact.. plexi is usually 1/8 thick and you can't send it down the dryer.
use transfer paper as you can send it down the dryer and take readings of dry ink. Wet ink is in a different state and requires the heat set to get accurate results as the plasticizer expands to adsorb the resins and pigments. This expansion can and does make a difference in readings.
John, you misunderstood me slash, I didn't explain myself well.
I meant send the shirt down the dryer, then you have the metal coin on the back side of the shirt and the plexi coin on the front side... shoot your meter through all of it to see how thick the shirt is and how thick the shirt + ink is.
If you don't sandwich the shirt then that pin that sticks out of the meter will bury into the shirt and to a lesser extent the ink giving you a false reading. This sandwich SHOULD let you average out the shirt density/thickness as well as the print density/thickness.
This is obviously easier done with a nice big open area test print style design for the sake of checking these variables. In the real world I'm not sure how effective it would be on many jobs other than large area spot color designs.
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My understanding was that EOM only effected deposit thickness in very close proximity to the emulsion edge. Great for fairly fine detail, but effectively null in large open area prints no?
Yes that's true with large open areas. We counter that with elevated screen tensions and 1/2 tone base plates.
Without 1/2 tone, what do you think the maximum affected distance can be attributed to OEM? I'm curious as to what one could reasonably expect as I was always under the impression that it wasn't much more than a few times the emulsion height.
I do realize that a more opaque outline afforded by the OEM gasket does generally fool the eye into thinking the center is opaque too.
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Hi guys, I am new to silk screening and am wondering what's the difference between ink and paint, because I here both being thrown around. Also when burning a screen do I put the film on the screen first then put emulsion on? And how do I go about burning it.i am working out of my garage so I am limited.
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^^^You can call it either. I prefer to call it paint. I've been professionally screen painting for about 17 years now and often base down my plastisol inks with exterior house paints so ink, paint whatever floats your boat man. Feel free to ask me for any advice
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^^^You can call it either. I prefer to call it paint. I've been professionally screen painting for about 17 years now and often base down my plastisol inks with exterior house paints so ink, paint whatever floats your boat man. Feel free to ask me for any advice
17 years printing and you call it paint hmmmmmm........
Three amigos it seems a new attack is afoot wow.
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all the people ive heard refer to our ink as "paint" are people that have no clue about printing and have likely never set foot in another print shop before that time.
just my experience.
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I think that the answer to the ink or paint question can be answered very simply by reading the label of the container.
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Three amigos it seems a new attack is afoot wow.
"Attack" may be a little strong for a seemingly silly answer to a painfully un-knowledgable question between two Sandy Eggians, but may indicate that the conspiracy nuts talking about something in the water supply down there may be on to something.
At least note that the exchange, quite appropriately, is not in the Screen Printing section. :P
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House paints???? Whoa. Lol