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screen printing => Screen Making => Topic started by: alan802 on June 16, 2011, 11:02:50 AM
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Has anyone bought this new product and used it yet? It basically converts all of your static aluminums into the EZ frame system. There is not a real good pic of the product and not much info on the shur-loc website (not a big fan of the shurloc website, it drives me nuts) but the concept is very simple and seems like it would work great. I have about 25 bare frames sitting around and if I can turn them into a high tension screen for half the price of a normal EZ frame, then it's a no brainer. I am going to purchase some murakami 330 panels today so I might just buy one of the conversion kits and try one out. Just wondering if anyone has tried out this product yet?
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I have answers, what are they worth to you?
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I have about 24 shur-locs. I dig em but they are heavy bitches. I do have a butt load of empty alums also. Keep us posted.
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It would be worth a very sincere "thanks man", or "I really appreciate it bro", or "you better tell me what you know or I'll hunt you down, hold you hostage and waterboard you till I get the info I want" :).
I just got of the phone with shurloc and ordered one kit, along with some murakami 330's so I will know what kind of product they are in about a week, but I'd sure like to hear others' opinion on them so I know what to expect.
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So far I like them. They are much thicker than a standard frame though, that is the only drawback. They work exactly like a regular shur-loc.
I have around 60 frames I will be converting.
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So far I like them. They are much thicker than a standard frame though, that is the only drawback. They work exactly like a regular shur-loc.
I have around 60 frames I will be converting.
I guess I will not have to waterboard you now, thanks, I didn't want to do that anyway.
So the off contact should be the same as the regular ez's right? I don't want to have to adjust for another different off contact like I have to do between newman rollers and the ez's.
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right, they hold nearly identical tension as the shur-locs. I have to take out every other rung on my drying rack though since they are dang tight in there. I don't use every rung anyway, so it's no biggie.
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do you guys want my old static frames to convert over? I have a pile of them waiting for the scrap yard.
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Can we get some pics of these. I am wondering if my MHM bushings will attach to the modified frame?
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Can we get some pics of these. I am wondering if my MHM bushings will attach to the modified frame?
There is only one small pic on their website of them that I could find, maybe there are more there but I didn't see them. I can't copy the pic and post it here so you'll have to follow this link. http://www.shurloc.com/2010/Shurloc%20Flash%20002/Home.html (http://www.shurloc.com/2010/Shurloc%20Flash%20002/Home.html)
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I am assuming you drill hole and attach wtih screws?
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How do you attach the "L" shaped piece to the frame? glue? Screws? What if your static frame is just a little smaller than standard (all mine are a little different size). Would that not mess with the tension you get on that frame?
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How do you attach the "L" shaped piece to the frame? glue? Screws? What if your static frame is just a little smaller than standard (all mine are a little different size). Would that not mess with the tension you get on that frame?
I talked to them briefly about it and it is my understanding that you use a silicon adhesive or if you choose, some sort of rivet mechanism and I was told there was a very comprehensive instruction sheet that would tell me all about it so I just ended it right there. No need to talk about it if they have good instructions to go by. Whenever I get them I'll post the exact details on how to attach the L shaped piece to the frame. I'm most likely going to try and use contact cement. I haven't had anything fail that I've used contact cement on, when used right it will bond very strongly to just about anything. I wouldn't think the adhesive needs to be all that strong due to the force that is going to be applied to the sides of the attachment with the screen tension, but I could be wrong. I'll determine that when I get the kit in and try and judge what can and won't work.
I wish all aluminum frames (sides) were the exact same height/width and they could make the L shaped pieces into C shaped pieces then you could use a fairly mild adhesive, or perhaps none at all.
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Saw them stretch one at ISS Atlantic City. It was sitting around 42 newtons. Looks like a solid product. Looking to convert my statics soon.
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Now these just attach to the 4 sides then the mesh panel gets stretched to the "L" bar. That is correct right? I asked this before but what if you have a frame that is taller and wider. Is that mesh going to have more tension? The mesh has to stretch a farther distance. (higher Newton?) What if your frame is a little smaller maybe even a 16th of a inch. That’s got to be 5 to 6 Newton’s of tension? Is there a way to deal with this? I am not trying to find things wrong with them I think this is a great Idea and a great option.
if anyone know please let me know,
Jon
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The kit comes with silicone and rivets, I do both as the instruction sheet I have says to do it that way.
After I sand my frames down, I can assemble 1 in 10 to 15 minutes. I do 2 sides at a time and it goes faster. Go to Home Depot and get a second set of the spring clamps, or just use some speed clamps.
I did another 4 yesterday and got them stretched already. I let mine relax overnight before coating.
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Now these just attach to the 4 sides then the mesh panel gets stretched to the "L" bar. That is correct right? I asked this before but what if you have a frame that is taller and wider. Is that mesh going to have more tension? The mesh has to stretch a farther distance. (higher Newton?) What if your frame is a little smaller maybe even a 16th of a inch. That’s got to be 5 to 6 Newton’s of tension? Is there a way to deal with this? I am not trying to find things wrong with them I think this is a great Idea and a great option.
if anyone know please let me know,
Jon
If you have some odd shaped frames, like 23-1/2" by 31-1/4" or smaller frames then you'll likely have some issues with the stock panels. I'll bet that if you talked to shurloc and tell them the exact size of your frames, they can adjust the panels to fit your needs. I know they can alter the panels and make them hold higher tension than normal so I would guess they could alter them enough to fit an odd sized frame. I know it's a pain in the butt for some people to call a business and ask a bunch of questions but everyone at shurloc is a joy to talk to and they are awesome at customer service.
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Now these just attach to the 4 sides then the mesh panel gets stretched to the "L" bar. That is correct right? I asked this before but what if you have a frame that is taller and wider. Is that mesh going to have more tension? The mesh has to stretch a farther distance. (higher Newton?) What if your frame is a little smaller maybe even a 16th of a inch. That’s got to be 5 to 6 Newton’s of tension? Is there a way to deal with this? I am not trying to find things wrong with them I think this is a great Idea and a great option.
if anyone know please let me know,
Jon
If you have some odd shaped frames, like 23-1/2" by 31-1/4" or smaller frames then you'll likely have some issues with the stock panels. I'll bet that if you talked to shurloc and tell them the exact size of your frames, they can adjust the panels to fit your needs. I know they can alter the panels and make them hold higher tension than normal so I would guess they could alter them enough to fit an odd sized frame. I know it's a pain in the butt for some people to call a business and ask a bunch of questions but everyone at shurloc is a joy to talk to and they are awesome at customer service.
I asked them the same question at the show and Jim said no adjustment was needed. Not sure if I got that wrong or not, let's see if they can answer . . .
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Hey guys, this is Ron from shur-loc... Pierre mentioned I should stop in here, so I'll try and help where I can...
1) The recommendation is not to exceed the 'frame size' by more than 1/8" in any direction - bigger or smaller. Smaller is ok, but you will lose tension on the fabrics. Bigger is not as ok, since the fabrics are designed to go to the optimal tension - and stretching them further than that may break them. 1/4" is too far to push many of the lighter fabrics (195+) and will result in lower fabric life on the lower meshes that will still hold that higher tension. One trick to use if you wanted to run on 'oversized' frames is to run a lower tension by using the second hook instead of the third hook for your production runs.
2) The weight... The standard 23x31 kit places about 4 pounds extra on the frame.
3) The height... The angle kit and tension bar add about 3/8" to the frame height.
4) The attachment... Getting the angles on is rather simple. You spread waterproof/chemically resistant silicone on the angle (this seals it from moisture and will keep your chemicals from getting everywhere when you remove it from a dip tank), clamp the angle on with the spring clamps (and yes, these are the $2 ones from Lowes/Home Depot if you want to get more to do more frames at once), drill the spots for the self sealing rivets, put the rivets in - this makes the 'permanent' attachment, and 5 minutes later (or when the silicone dries) your frame is ready to go. You can actually stretch them as soon as the rivets are in, but we recommend letting the silicone dry also.
And finally, what sort of images would you guys like? Or would you rather have a video of installing them? I'd be happy to snag Jim for a 5 minute session today to get whatever you would like and post it to our YouTube channel or just post images in the forum.
Thanks and keep the questions coming - I'll be checking in shortly to answer them.
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You guys need to spend some more time here.
I've done 6 frames so far and it's faster to do 2 sides at once, so an extra set of clamps is a great idea. They are $.99 at my Home Depot. My next purchase is a pneumatic riveter.
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@mk162 - I'll be spending as much time as I can here answering questions and giving what feeble advice we have for you guys. We actually learn more from reading feedback on forums from users than we do from posting our own stuff.
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Yeah, but letting us know you are listening is HUGE.
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I'd love to see a video of the conversion from start to finish. As far as pics go, maybe one of all the parts sitting there, then a few pics throughout the assembly process and obviously the finished product.
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@Alan - For the videos, I will get with Jim and get something shot ASAP - he's off designing a jumbo frame for a customer this morning.
Also, Sheri came up with a great point about the clamps... You only need to leave them on until the rivets are in. So, silicone one side, clamp, drill, rivet then remove the clamps - you don't have to leave them on for more than a few seconds if you don't want the get more of them... And if you decide you do want them - just let us know and we can add a set to your order as an additional item...
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@mk162 - I'll be spending as much time as I can here answering questions and giving what feeble advice we have for you guys. We actually learn more from reading feedback on forums from users than we do from posting our own stuff.
Well, no sh*t shurloc!
Sorry, I couldn't resist. ;)
Pierre beat me to the punch contacting you when this topic came up, because, who better to answer these questions than you? The proverbial horse whose mouth straightly provides the best information. ;D
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Here is how I do it...
1. Start with a clean frame
2. Cut a spacer to use to line up the L brackets
3. Put adhesive on the back of a short size and line it up.
4. Same with a long side
5. Clamp both sides
6. Drill holes in short and long side
7. Put rivets in
The less you change tools, the better. Do all you can of 1 task before switching. If I had a better workspace, i would do all 4 sides at once.
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I need a visual. I've got a small pile of frames waiting for something to be done with. If they could get out and play like the Newmans... I believe their lives would be more complete.
Jim, Sheri and family have been nothing but helpful since I met them all toughs years ago :)
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@frog - Oh no, you didn't go there... :P
@draginink - Hey, we should just have Jim and Sheri come install the kits for you... We always like to let them get away... ;D
@mk162 - Sounds like you've got the process down perfectly... I'm running through the benefits of the second set of clamps with Sheri right now... It's not a great idea to do all 4 at once though, since the silicone may start to dry before you get the angles clamped - meaning you won't get a good seal... :)
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I would love a video. I have a crap load of statics doing nothing if I could see it done in action i would definitely consider it. Plus I have a box full of c-clamps, spring clamps etc. And a rivet gun.
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I need a visual. I've got a small pile of frames waiting for something to be done with. If they could get out and play like the Newmans... I believe their lives would be more complete.
Jim, Sheri and family have been nothing but helpful since I met them all toughs years ago :)
BTW, nice avatar Doug!
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I need a visual. I've got a small pile of frames waiting for something to be done with. If they could get out and play like the Newmans... I believe their lives would be more complete.
Jim, Sheri and family have been nothing but helpful since I met them all toughs years ago :)
BTW, nice avatar Doug!
:) starting a new fad. lets see where it goes... then pick one! ;)
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Ok everyone, I finally nailed Jim down for a quick "How to" on putting a kit on a frame... So as soon as youtube has it processed, you can check it out here...
Assembling an EZ Angle Conversion Kit (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wbl6NFK8S0#)
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Yep, I would also like to see a video. We have a large batch we could convert...
Steve
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Yep, I would also like to see a video. We have a large batch we could convert...
Steve
Steve,
I have been thinking about it, the problem is the bushings would not align right any more and would have to be moved. Unfortunately the distance is so close that it might not be possible to get a clean hole drilled as it might overlap with the old one.
Has this been addressed by Shurloc and I am missing something?
pierre
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What bushings are your guys thinking about? Something like the MHM mounts or something totally different?
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What bushings are your guys thinking about? Something like the MHM mounts or something totally different?
yes, the MHM stuff.
the holes get drilled through a jig that places them at a certain distance from the mesh. By adding the angle plates, the mesh is moved away from the bushings and the off contact would be changed. In this case, the mesh would be few mm below the platten level. This can be adjusted on the press and moved up, but it would be extra work on a press that is configured and known for fast and simple.
pierre
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Just did a quick chat with David on this one and we both think that there wouldn't be any interference if you moved the template "up" towards the mesh side of the frame about 5/16"... This would be the 1/16" for the angle and 1/4" for the tension bar. Your off contact will still be different due to the higher tension and your squeegee pressure would be different as well.
Does that sound like an answer to the issue?
The other option there is to simply do a one time change to your press and convert all your frames at once... :-)
EDIT: Just confirmed with Jim on the procedure on this one... Take one short side, place the tension bar on it, set the template on, then drill... So you will be approx. 5/16" above the original hole through the frame.
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Couldn't you remove the bushings, attach the angle and drill new holes with the jig? That would put the bushings the same distance from the mesh and make your off contact the same as any other static or EZ frame I would think.
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Couldn't you remove the bushings, attach the angle and drill new holes with the jig? That would put the bushings the same distance from the mesh and make your off contact the same as any other static or EZ frame I would think.
that was my question . . . If we drill the new holes how close will they be to the old holes? I think they will overlap and thus will not be able to get a good grip.
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Just did a quick chat with David on this one and we both think that there wouldn't be any interference if you moved the template "up" towards the mesh side of the frame about 5/16"... This would be the 1/16" for the angle and 1/4" for the tension bar. Your off contact will still be different due to the higher tension and your squeegee pressure would be different as well.
Does that sound like an answer to the issue?
The other option there is to simply do a one time change to your press and convert all your frames at once... :-)
EDIT: Just confirmed with Jim on the procedure on this one... Take one short side, place the tension bar on it, set the template on, then drill... So you will be approx. 5/16" above the original hole through the frame.
OK, had a chance to think about it. So the new plate is 5/16th thick?
the screws are 3/16th thick so there would be possibly an 1/8th between the holes? Does this make sense?
pierre
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The screw would also have the angle itself to bite into.
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The screw would also have the angle itself to bite into.
aaah, good point!
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@blue moon - Yes, you have the "height" adjustment with the bar added that should give you that 1/8" or more of clearance...
@squeegee - Also correct... but if you were going to hit the same hole on the back side, there might be a chance over time that you would slot it out...
Also, option #2 is to just rotate the frame and use the opposite side for the mounts. Just put a bit of extra silicone in the holes where you remove the mounts and put the angle over the top of them...
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Ok everyone, I finally nailed Jim down for a quick "How to" on putting a kit on a frame... So as soon as youtube has it processed, you can check it out here...
YAY! thanks gang!
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Thanks Shurloc for the video, and Pierre and Squeegee with the followup questions. I'm showing this to my partner, and we may try out the starter kit. A tad more study before we pull the trigger, but it's pretty exciting to be able to convert statics this way.
Steve
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Has anyone bought this new product and used it yet? It basically converts all of your static aluminums into the EZ frame system. There is not a real good pic of the product and not much info on the shur-loc website (not a big fan of the shurloc website, it drives me nuts) but the concept is very simple and seems like it would work great. I have about 25 bare frames sitting around and if I can turn them into a high tension screen for half the price of a normal EZ frame, then it's a no brainer. I am going to purchase some murakami 330 panels today so I might just buy one of the conversion kits and try one out. Just wondering if anyone has tried out this product yet?
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How do these compare to the Panel Frames that came out last year?
Frank
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I looked over my frames, and we have our holes for the cups tapped dead center, leaving no room for adjustment, but my screen guy suggested tapping the new holes for a machine screw instead of a sheet metal screw. Add a little glue maybe for extra security, and I think we'd have a winner. Maybe add a thin piece of metal to the outside of the conversion bar to drill through, adding material for the machine screw threads without extending the conversion bar any. MHM's have the flexibility for that due to the gas pistons on the rear clamp.
Steve
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@Sbrem - You only have the holes on one short side of your frame, right? If you are dead center drilled on your cups, then you would only have about 3/8" to move up to mount the new screws... I would suggest rotating to the opposite side and remounting there. That gives you a completely clean side to mount to and the side that currently has the holes would get covered by the angle and sealed with the silicone...
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@Sbrem - You only have the holes on one short side of your frame, right? If you are dead center drilled on your cups, then you would only have about 3/8" to move up to mount the new screws... I would suggest rotating to the opposite side and remounting there. That gives you a completely clean side to mount to and the side that currently has the holes would get covered by the angle and sealed with the silicone...
the wholes are on both sides . . .
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@Sbrem - You only have the holes on one short side of your frame, right? If you are dead center drilled on your cups, then you would only have about 3/8" to move up to mount the new screws... I would suggest rotating to the opposite side and remounting there. That gives you a completely clean side to mount to and the side that currently has the holes would get covered by the angle and sealed with the silicone...
the wholes are on both sides . . .
I'll get with Jim on thoughts, I'm sure he's thought about this and has an idea... Back shortly! :)
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@Sbrem - You only have the holes on one short side of your frame, right? If you are dead center drilled on your cups, then you would only have about 3/8" to move up to mount the new screws... I would suggest rotating to the opposite side and remounting there. That gives you a completely clean side to mount to and the side that currently has the holes would get covered by the angle and sealed with the silicone...
the wholes are on both sides . . .
I'll get with Jim on thoughts, I'm sure he's thought about this and has an idea... Back shortly! :)
if it would help, I can send you a screen so you see exactly what is going on.
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Maybe this will help explain the MHM frames ans possible solution
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Maybe this will help explain the MHM frames ans possible solution
great idea and had me thinking for a sec, but it would not work. the issues is the distance from the mesh to the pin. When the angle pieces is added, the distance changes and it has to stay the same.
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great idea and had me thinking for a sec, but it would not work. the issues is the distance from the mesh to the pin. When the angle pieces is added, the distance changes and it has to stay the same.
Can you adjust off contact, or move the pins up a bit more (Or down)
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great idea and had me thinking for a sec, but it would not work. the issues is the distance from the mesh to the pin. When the angle pieces is added, the distance changes and it has to stay the same.
Can you adjust off contact, or move the pins up a bit more (Or down)
yes, we can adjust off contact, but it is extra work (thus time consuming) and there is a possibility of forgetting to take it back and messing up the next print. I would rather just stick with EZ frames than have to deal with the off contact adjustments every time we use the converted frames.
The discussion going on is about the location of the pins. If they are moved, the new hole might overlap the old one and cause issues with the pin stability.
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@Sbrem - You only have the holes on one short side of your frame, right? If you are dead center drilled on your cups, then you would only have about 3/8" to move up to mount the new screws... I would suggest rotating to the opposite side and remounting there. That gives you a completely clean side to mount to and the side that currently has the holes would get covered by the angle and sealed with the silicone...
no, both short sides, cups are on both ends. They push onto the rear pins, then you push the frame toward the back, lift the front up to align with the front pins and let the gas piston push the front into place.
Steve
Pierre, what do you think of the machine screw option I mentioned? Our holes are centered top to bottom, our mesh distance is the same from either side...
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I have been following this thread because I want to try these. I agree with Pierre that the bushings could be a problem. If the top part of the bracket is at least 3/16ths thick it will be a non problem. The screw is 3/16ths thick so moving the hole at least this far will miss the old hole. We will have to redrill new holes to reattach the Bushings for MHM's. If you don't you will screw up the offcontact, the screen distance from the FPU reg marks and the consistancy with any other screen you have in the shop. I think the diagram Attached will help.
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I knew I was missing something, the height of new piece. If I move my centered holes up, it should end up being a non-issue.
Steve
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@Sbrem Exactly... You have .25" on the bar and about .125" on the angle height... That means you need to move your cups up (towards the hook and bar side) about 3/8" minimum. This movement would make the cups in the same position for the same off contact you have now. Keep in mind though, when you double the tension on your fabrics, your off contact is going to be much less than it would on your standard frames. In general, your off contact on an EZ frame would be around 1/16" and your pressure will need to be lightened as well. If you run the same off contact and pressure, you will snap fabric panels constantly.
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Keep in mind though, when you double the tension on your fabrics, your off contact is going to be much less than it would on your standard frames. In general, your off contact on an EZ frame would be around 1/16" and your pressure will need to be lightened as well. If you run the same off contact and pressure, you will snap fabric panels constantly.
Why are these panels so fragile? My static aluminums are at 20 to 25 N and they have never popped on the press even when I screwed up and had the off contact at about half an inch (don't ask) What are the panels stretched to 40-50???
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@Screened Gear Some of the fabric panels are running 40-50 N, with others are running 25-30 N but are a very light thread diameter. Murakami has their new S series mesh that is pushing a larger opening and lower tensions by using much lighter threads. Usually a 160/64 is a standard thread, but the S mesh is a 150/48. Much larger opening, much thinner threads, much easier to break. A little care and proper handling the panels hold tensions for a very long time and will have little to no wear...
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@Screened Gear Some of the fabric panels are running 40-50 N, with others are running 25-30 N but are a very light thread diameter. Murakami has their new S series mesh that is pushing a larger opening and lower tensions by using much lighter threads. Usually a 160/64 is a standard thread, but the S mesh is a 150/48. Much larger opening, much thinner threads, much easier to break. A little care and proper handling the panels hold tensions for a very long time and will have little to no wear...
I guess that makes sense. I will have to get a few and try them out. I have to wait for a few more of my static mesh to come loose so I have the frames to do it. (The last static frames I have been getting weigh a lot less than the old blue ones. Have you had any problems with these as far as strength for this option. I imagine the "L" brackets give the frame enough strength.)
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The biggest issue we've seen is the corner strength. Cracked, old corners won't hold the tension, but you can usually see that BEFORE you convert them. If the frame is solid and has no cracks, the angles should stiffen it up enough to hold the higher tensions.
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For those of you who have taken the plunge..... how are these puppies working out?
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I'm embarrased to say, but I still haven't done that conversion. I don't want to make any promises but if get even 15 minutes of spare time tomorrow, I will get this done. I only have one 305 EZ panel so it won't get used much but I'll at least be able to give you guys the low down on the tension level and opinion of the process. Hell, I've sat on this kit long enough, I'm going to get to work early and take care of this first thing in the morning.
I hope they work as advertised, I've got 25 statics I'd love to convert and put some S thread and newman roller mesh on. We have spent this year with a skeleton crew of screens and I'm getting tired of it. Our entire inventory (except a few high mesh) is getting turned over almost weekly and some of our better screens are going through the round more than once a week.
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For those of you who have taken the plunge..... how are these puppies working out?
We did the initial 6 frames, and will do more, just haven't got to it yet. Very tight, nice prints as is to be expected. The extra height of the frames have caused a tight fit on our MHM, but tight is better than not fitting at all.
Steve
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For those of you who have taken the plunge..... how are these puppies working out?
We did the initial 6 frames, and will do more, just haven't got to it yet. Very tight, nice prints as is to be expected. The extra height of the frames have caused a tight fit on our MHM, but tight is better than not fitting at all.
Steve
I got it done this morning, and it works fine but I don't like the added height of the frames because it doesn't work on our new regi system's FPU. The 305 was at 29 newtons when I first stretched it and figure it will settle in at 25 or so. The screens are too tall and I had to rig the shurloc ez frame stretcher to work with the added height but it's not a deal breaker for this kit, but it's something I'm putting into the equation. I'm not completely convinced that this is something we are going to do with our old statics, but I'm leaning towards doing it.
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Hey everyone,
Just wanted to stop in and see about the height issues that everyone is having - especially the MHM users. We know that the angle kit adds about 3/8" to the frame from the mesh to the bottom, but is this creating issues on presses (besides the few that have tight clamps like the Antec Legend and Anatol Stratus)?
If so, we would love to hear from you about the problems and potential fixes for the issue. We want to have the best products on the market and your feedback would help a ton on this one.
Thanks! PM me with additional info!