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General => General Discussion and ??? => Topic started by: inkbrigade on January 22, 2013, 05:34:49 PM
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Specifically microing. Is anyone doing anything other than putting on a test pellon, tester shirt etc doing a hit, looking at how it's off, making an adjustment and then starting the whole process over again?
The only other process i know of is printing the underbase or black plate, putting clear tape over it and printing on top of that. Then wiping off the tape after a micro adjustment is made.
Anyone doing anything better or faster?
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Clear tape. The only way to fly.
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We lay down the artwork and tape it to the board and then start lining up the screens.
No printing until all of the screens are set.
Do a test print on a t-shirt, then adjust.
Good luck.
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We do what Scoby does.
Check off contact on each head and adjust as needed.
Pin-lock all the screens.
Print color one. Flash. Check/line up the rest. Tape off if needed. Strike off a tester. Approve it and go. (run x # of testers if WOW buildup is needed)
I use very thin reg marks to line up the films on the pin lock carriers but they do not typically develop and are blocked out or taped if they do.
*off contact going out of adjustment (the "camber" adjust on manuals) is the #1 cause of mis-registration for us. If you ensure it is set before loading screens we are dead on the money 9 times out of 10. If not, that goes down to 5 out of 10 or less. Your press holding still and keeping in parallel is huge part of fast setups.
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That's hilarious. I wrote "asdfx testers" and it got censored. haha.
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Why are you guys using clear tape? I just run testers. Load 'em all up and go. It's super quick and not tape needed. I guess that wouldn't work if you didn't have cases of screw ups on hand.....
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I believe in using very thin registration marks. Thinner than what Adobe provides as a standard. I provide registration marks with most all of my seps unless someone request not to add them. The thing is, most want them thick so the don't have a hard time exposing them.
Part of holding good detail is reaching for goals of and making adjustments to hold those thin lines. When you can hold those thin lines, it's a tell tail sign that your doing good on your halftones also.
Then, you have the "tight registration" factor. The fact that registering thinner line registration marks tells you that you are more "on point". Fat reggies make it much harder to determine. You could be off and not realize it but think it's the best you can get.
I say, shoot for the stars. If you can't get to the stars, at least you are passing the moon. Much better than never getting off the ground.
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Slapping one of the films with marks down on a shirt board seems to work best for me, although I'll usually then print the first screen then clear tape and test the rest. I found when I work on that old Gauntlet in Daytona, out of 7 screens, I usually have 5 spot on just registering to the film alone. I don't to the tape trick over there, though, unless I pull a screen that's effed up and everything else is inked, when I'll print the first screen and line the new one up to that.
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clear tape? any reason you don't flash it? with our wonderful reg on the gauntlet, we have to off register the screens from one to the next due to squeeg pressure......pita. then test print, micro, flash and repeat until they are all set....and that's number 152 why I can not wait for a new press. we use old shirts as pellons seem to give us a false reading on pressures and speeds.
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Tri-loc, test print one color at a time while keeping a mental note of what is out, don't move anything until we make it all the way around. Many times only the base needs to be moved. Often times nothing need to move.
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clear tape? any reason you don't flash it? with our wonderful reg on the gauntlet, we have to off register the screens from one to the next due to squeeg pressure......pita. then test print, micro, flash and repeat until they are all set....and that's number 152 why I can not wait for a new press. we use old shirts as pellons seem to give us a false reading on pressures and speeds.
If you're referring to my comment, I use the tape when setting up to print manually. On the Gauntlet, I've only used it when replacing a bad screen after setup and proof before starting the run when all of the screens have ink in them. Pull the underbase or any screen that has tight registration to the new screen and use that alone to register. And I do flash even before laying the tape down.
The Gauntlet is the only auto I've ever printed on, so old as it is (and old as I am) I'm still happy it sets up as quickly as it does and pounds out shirts a lot faster than I can. It ain't mine, but it's clean, and I've got use of it if I need it.
If you're not referring to my comment, ignore the above.
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I am just curious how the tape method works, if it's faster/better then flashing...knowing my luck, I'll go through 6 rolls of tape on one design or tape myself to the platen and someone will jamn me up under the flash...
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I am just curious how the tape method works, if it's faster/better then flashing...knowing my luck, I'll go through 6 rolls of tape on one design or tape myself to the platen and someone will jamn me up under the flash...
Print one color. Flash it. Place clear packing tape over the design + registration marks. Print the next color. Wipe that color off the tape after checking alignment, adjusting, etc. Rinse and repeat.
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I believe in using very thin registration marks. Thinner than what Adobe provides as a standard. I provide registration marks with most all of my seps unless someone request not to add them. The thing is, most want them thick so the don't have a hard time exposing them.
Part of holding good detail is reaching for goals of and making adjustments to hold those thin lines. When you can hold those thin lines, it's a tell tail sign that your doing good on your halftones also.
Then, you have the "tight registration" factor. The fact that registering thinner line registration marks tells you that you are more "on point". Fat reggies make it much harder to determine. You could be off and not realize it but think it's the best you can get.
I say, shoot for the stars. If you can't get to the stars, at least you are passing the moon. Much better than never getting off the ground.
We're using a .5 thickness line for reg marks in Illustrator. They are about 1/2 X 1/2 inch. Maybe i should make them longer.
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I print the key color on a shirt on my auto and then just check the other screens to that print. On a MHM your screens are registered when you put them in the press (if you lined them up right on the FPU) I only check them. Sometimes I need to give the screen a little bump with the micros. Nothing bigger than a hair off most of the time. After that I run a shirt and then fine tune if needed. I do a ton of 2-4 color jobs and I can't remember a job taking more than 5 to 10 mins to get dead on. (one person doing all the adjusting if I had help maybe less) I have done the tape thing when I didn't have the FPU. It was a huge pain in my opinion. I can't imagine having to do that for every job. I have only ran a MHM press and don't know what its like otherwise.
As for the thickness of your reg marks and being able to get your press tighter with finer reg marks. I don't agree with that at all. You can not tell me that having a fine line will make it easier or more accurate. Its kind of hard to explain but if you view the photo attached you can see what I am talking about. The thickness of the lines is irreverent to the registration. Its the amount off the registration is. Both examples will show the same amount off if the reg marks are thick or thin. I honestly think thicker lines makes it faster to register. I use a one point reg mark on all my films. I have used as small as .25 point and it didn't make any difference to me. Just my 2 cents.
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Not sure about newer models but on older M&Rs there is actually a freewheel position where you can turn the micro about 10 degrees right or left without moving the screen. It is recommended that the micro is in this position when running production.
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Tri-loc, test print one color at a time while keeping a mental note of what is out, don't move anything until we make it all the way around. Many times only the base needs to be moved. Often times nothing need to move.
This
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Tri-loc, test print one color at a time while keeping a mental note of what is out, don't move anything until we make it all the way around. Many times only the base needs to be moved. Often times nothing need to move.
This
Third this...my underbase usually always needs moved up, i usually move it up before even testing at this point since i know its going to be off....I assume because it's sticking the shirt down on this stroke, its different from every other stroke thereafter?
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Tri-Loc in run a test print of the whole design. If any color needs a tweak it is very very tiny so I make a micro on what needs it the run another test print. 100% of the time its all thats needed. More times than not with the tri-loc no micro is ever needed.
Hey Dan when I get your seps I usually swap out your thin reggies for even much thinner ones :D I use .1pt they are so thin they rarely even wash out but are perfect for pre-regging on the light table.
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Could be that printhead is a tad high. Check the off contact on that printhead versus all the others next time you set up a job like that. That will eliminate that issue and we can then move on to the next. It could be several things, so check or change one thing at a time to figure out what it was.
We use thin regis too, they sometimes won't spray out on thicker stencils. I don't know what point they are, I think .5.
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I have tried both thick and thin and thin is a ton easier. Try it sometime, it just is.
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I only use the tape trick when I'm lining up 2 screens that are the same color, say for a white/flash/white. That way I can tell which one is which & move accordingly. Also, it's a little faster than having to print both heads each time you make a move, because you can just stand at the head you're adjusting, print, look, move, wipe, print again.
For everything else, clamp 'em all down (tri-lock -- best investment of the past 10 years), run a test print of the whole thing, make whatever moves are needed, then test print the whole thing again.
I like to set the dwell time at about 6 seconds so that I can walk around the press during the test print & watch each head for squeegee pressure, & make sure ink is clearing the screen, & I can make those adjustments right then.
Our old series I Challengers, there's a lot of play in the print heads due to the length of the rods that attach the screen brackets, so lots of micro-regging on them, including moves after adjusting squeegee pressure. On the newer series II machines, a 6 color job will usually need 2 or 3 micro moves to be ready to go.
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Does anyone here run the newman pin system? i'm interested to see how accurate it is. I understand i'll have to bump things here and there, but as a whole, how quick is it to use to register?
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I'd think that the base would be off most often as it is typically printed with more pressure than top colors, and as Shelly said, is
responsible for tacking the shirt to the pallet.
We do the tape thing for waterbase a lot. Way easier to see where you're at on top of tape than in the shirt.
Regging to film makes sense, but typically destroys the film, and at least for our machines, is difficult to determine
initial placement in terms of height on the pallet. A permanently marked pallet might be nice, but we'd have to redraw
every time we change the paper currently.
I think the most important thing is a pre-reg system, as has been said before countless times. Even if it's
nothing more than a lineup table, or just putting the screen in the head and the film on the pallet and lining up that
way.
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we'd have to redraw every time we change the paper currently.
I haven't done this but I am thinking about it. For your marks on the pallet paper set up a screen with all your neck lines and reg mark. Then before adding tack print all the boards (purposely) with a very thinned out ink. Flash it and your done. Keep the screen and you never have to mark your boards again.
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we'd have to redraw every time we change the paper currently.
I haven't done this but I am thinking about it. For your marks on the pallet paper set up a screen with all your neck lines and reg mark. Then before adding tack print all the boards (purposely) with a very thinned out ink. Flash it and your done. Keep the screen and you never have to mark your boards again.
I mark all my boards one time only right on the rubber. All palettes have a thick black center line and one has lines for left chest, right chest, full front height etc. With even semi dirty palette paper you can still see enough of the marks, if it becomes to hard to see its time to change the paper anyways.
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I have a DIY triloc registration pallet that I rarely use anymore since getting used to the press.
I have one regular pallet on press with a center line drawn and drop marks for reference. I align the base screen to those marks, print on shirt with registration marks, flash it, then use that to register all other screens, tape reg marks and start printing.
For single color prints I tape the reg marks before putting the screen on press because I can still see through them to align with the centerline on the pallet.
Most of my jobs are 1-2 color though, with the rare 3+
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I can tell you what not even reading back in this thread. If you have a press that can accommodate Tri Loc pallet, and are in the position to add a CTS unit, like the M&R I-Image that we just added, you will set up multi color jobs all day with literally 99% lock and load accuracy. This thing is awesome man, 8 color sim process, or 8 color spot color jobs, I don't have to trap my seps nearly as much if at all anymore for perfect reg yielding a higher quality print, fast fast fast, and dead on. Unless you need to re-level your press which this CTS unit showed us how bad we needed to re-level our pallets, once your press is tight and right, the set ups fly on like you wouldn't believe. The M&R I-Image really is the bomb diggty in my opinion, very happy with the machine and especially the customer service and training they have given us.
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I'd think that the base would be off most often as it is typically printed with more pressure than top colors, and as Shelly said, is
responsible for tacking the shirt to the pallet.
We do the tape thing for waterbase a lot. Way easier to see where you're at on top of tape than in the shirt.
Regging to film makes sense, but typically destroys the film, and at least for our machines, is difficult to determine
initial placement in terms of height on the pallet. A permanently marked pallet might be nice, but we'd have to redraw
every time we change the paper currently.
I think the most important thing is a pre-reg system, as has been said before countless times. Even if it's
nothing more than a lineup table, or just putting the screen in the head and the film on the pallet and lining up that
way.
I think the base being off also has a lot to do with the very different ink viscosity and tack as well, in plastisol at least.
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I usually do this simple math if my bullets are 1pt. thick = 4 hairlines, some micros are more responsive than others
if i turn my micro knobs 1/4 of a turn = a hairline, two hairlines 1/2 turn and so on
Gabe
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Does anyone here run the newman pin system? i'm interested to see how accurate it is. I understand i'll have to bump things here and there, but as a whole, how quick is it to use to register?
I used to have the Newman system. I didn't feel that the swing-arm thing was as accurate as the tri-loc press attachment. That & the after-market doo-dads you need for the rollers are expensive and take time to install. We also frequently bent the little pins and had to replace them a few times -- also not cheap. The Tri-loc doesn't need any frame modifications. I much prefer the Tri-Loc.
I might get in hot water with Newman for trashing their system, but that's how I feel. It didn't get us much closer than just lining 'em up by eyesight. I love roller frames. They changed the industry. But some of their add-on stuff is over-priced & doesn't work as well as you might hope.
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I got us a used Pin Lock a couple years ago. Love it. It's very accurate (see my comment in italics earlier in the thread, your press must be in calibration to use this). A very tiny, linear, left to right bump is typically all that is needed, if anything.
We use Pin Lock over a tri-lock b/c there is nothing on our glass. If we had a tri-lock on our big vac frame we would have to pull it off or have another big vac frame for the large flatstock screens so that was a deal breaker.
I'm a big fan of the swing out platen arms- no need to pull the platen on/off, just swing em out and swing them in when you are done.
Would I buy a new Pin Lock? Hell no. As posted above, it's stupid expensive. I would go with tri-lock or a homebrewed setup if buying new and did not have the "no crap on the glass" requirement.
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M&R's old manuals for autos (pre tri lock I would presume) had a simple system laid out for using platen marks to reg. If you can't afford a pre-reg system platen marks and a basic film alignment table will get you really close and let you reap 75% of the benefits for no up front cost.
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Last off, we print actual testers, flash and reg for the exact reason that your reg needs to work in the actual production run, which may involve flashing and does not involve pellons, tape or the like. WB/DC runs are no flash here and I actually found that flashing a key color to align the others is deceptive and will differ from WOW registration a dozen shirts in, as a case in point so I may simply load an print, adjusting micros by eye and gut feeling in those cases.
You can line up screens dead nuts to each other but it don't mean a thing if one screen is printing WFX Performance UB grey and the next 5 are printing fashion soft (no one should ever do this, but just to illustrate the point). The screen printing caulk thick ink direct to the shirt is going to have far different pressure dynamics than the ones printing soupy inks onto flashed ub. Toss in shrinkage from flash and there's why most will line up their screens perfectly but still see the ub off.