TSB
screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: Screened Gear on February 14, 2013, 01:39:54 PM
-
How hot can honeycomb pallets get before they start to delaminated?
-
mine say that they can't get hotter than 250 celcius (400 degrees?) Not willing to find out either. I don't like when they start "crackling" when I'm trying to get them warm. I assume they are manufactured the "same" as yours.
-
how are the made? or rather, what makes them "honeycomb? I have never seen them in person before and have always wondered this.
-
They are 4 pieces. Top and bottom is a thin sheet of aluminum. The center (meat) is the honeycomb. It is super light but very strong after the top and bottom is glued on. Then some edging is added to cover the honeycomb the edge is not needed for support just to cover so no snags and looks good.
-
400 degrees sounds way to high. That can't be right. If it was that high then they would never warn us about getting them too hot.
I bet 244 knows.
-
It is essentially like honeycomb.
Pressing the flash button too many times in a row with too long of a flash will delaminate your pallets.
Ask me how I know. 400 degrees is way too hot.
I'm actually still on the fence about them. Super light, super fast, but I hate how fragile they are and I hate
how quickly they warm up and cool down.
-
Hmmm... I and other people here long before me have burned the nitrile on 4 old HC platens and two that are real beat are tweaked, two are still flat and solid. Old M&R, probably from the nineties though, perhaps they're speccing a different type of honeycomb material these days.
-
are you sure they are HC, I didn't think M&R made them in the 90's. I thought they were flat aluminum
-
from what I remember 180 voids warranty.
we keep ours below 120 for the most part. I think we hit 140 with two flashes, but that is few times per year. . .
If you can't keep your hand on them, they are probably too hot.
pierre
-
M&R briefly made 'em in the mid-late 90's. They sucked, everyone hated 'em, & they went right back to solid aluminum pretty quickly, like within a year. I got a couple with our recent purchase of a '99 Gauntlet, so they're probably the two remaining original pallets out of 12. Either that, or the guy who sold the press saw an opportunity to ditch 'em with the machine.
-
Actually, the Blue Max was purchased new, probably in 92 or 93, and I'd be absolutely amazed if those platens are anything but stock.
I could be mistaken--perhaps they are some other sort of sandwiched construction, but I'd say with some certainty that they aren't solid.
-
from what I remember 180 voids warranty.
we keep ours below 120 for the most part. I think we hit 140 with two flashes, but that is few times per year. . .
If you can't keep your hand on them, they are probably too hot.
pierre
That is what I was thinking. I didn't know about a warranty. I can hardly get mine over 125. That is the info I needed. Thanks.
-
Apparently I was thinking something else I guess (max temp my flash will go up too probably) so I looked it up and its 80c (176 degress), that sounds right with what everyone else is saying. I used some of those old M&R ones that company in my town has. Those really screw up your rotation on an all air machine when you don't have enough to balance out the carriage.
-
we used to have honeycomb platens on the Zelkos (1996 vintage)... they never stayed flat - 99 percent of our shirts are black and need to be flashed.
i have actually used an old honeycomb platen (minus the bracket) when i soldered the 1" copper air lines. easy to wipe off, easy to move around, light enough to clamp to protect the torch from burning the wood.
-
Actually, the Blue Max was purchased new, probably in 92 or 93, and I'd be absolutely amazed if those platens are anything but stock.
I could be mistaken--perhaps they are some other sort of sandwiched construction, but I'd say with some certainty that they aren't solid.
No, you're right. Now that I think about it, I got 4 of those with my Blue Max II that I bought new in '94. The selling point then, i think, was that they were lighter & would fatigue the operator less as he turned the carousel.
-
I'm not sure who manufactured our pallets on the RPM, but we've gotten them way too hot before, well over 180 degrees probably when we were idiots but when I test them for flatness, they are flatter than some of the pallets I've measured on brand new equipment being installed. I know the supposed benefits of honeycomb but the solid aluminums on our machine are unbelievably hardy and I don't know that the HC's would survive a summer in our shop when we're running two flashes on a 2k piece job. I know I remember reading Rich's comments on the HC pallets and I just wonder why with as good as solid alums are, and the fragility of the HC, why does MHM use them? Seems like they would benefit most shops if they did everything perfectly but in the real world, you don't have some guy with a temp gun standing over the pallets making sure they don't get to 180 in the middle of a job. So why use them when you should engineer a press to withstand the maximum of what that press might experience in the average print shop?
-
why does MHM use them?
Extremely lightweight and nimble indexing system. My 10/12 uses 20 amps at 220 volts single phase. That's
less than a clothes dryer.
It has it's tradeoffs, like anything.
We fried 3 pallets when we first got the machine and didn't know what we were doing. Quartz can be confusing.
Since then we've regularly run 2 flashes on thousands of pieces and had no issues. They cool down very quickly.
-
our Diamondback has honeycomb pallets, air indexer...
we bought 4 aluminum 16x22 pallets for the manual a year or so ago though
-
Are you sure they are honeycomb? I thought the D'backs came with composite?
-
Are you sure they are honeycomb? I thought the D'backs came with composite?
oops you're right...hmm not sure why I thought honeycomb then
at over 400k prints though I have hardly had to adjust the pallets at all for parallel luckily(done once and only a tiny adjustment on a couple of them), not sure really since it sounds like every 100k they need to be done
I do wonder what benefits aluminum pallets have over our composite ones though.
-
I'm not sure who manufactured our pallets on the RPM, but we've gotten them way too hot before, well over 180 degrees probably when we were idiots but when I test them for flatness, they are flatter than some of the pallets I've measured on brand new equipment being installed.
Well, that is probably not the case for a press coming out of the shop mine came out of. They aren't the kindest to their equipment. The press is printing great, I am just ironing out the little stuff. The platens are warped...not bad, but I let my other press go with a set of 2 year old platens that I should have kept.
Oh, well, I'll just be spending more money at Action next month.
-
I'm not sure who manufactured our pallets on the RPM, but we've gotten them way too hot before, well over 180 degrees probably when we were idiots but when I test them for flatness, they are flatter than some of the pallets I've measured on brand new equipment being installed. I know the supposed benefits of honeycomb but the solid aluminums on our machine are unbelievably hardy and I don't know that the HC's would survive a summer in our shop when we're running two flashes on a 2k piece job[/color]. I know I remember reading Rich's comments on the HC pallets and I just wonder why with as good as solid alums are, and the fragility of the HC, why does MHM use them? Seems like they would benefit most shops if they did everything perfectly but in the real world, you don't have some guy with a temp gun standing over the pallets making sure they don't get to 180 in the middle of a job. So why use them when you should engineer a press to withstand the maximum of what that press might experience in the average print shop?
You asked a question that I would like to try to answer.
To my recollection, it was MHM who first introduced the material to our industry. Since then, while solid aluminum and rubber has been a standard for most automatic machinery, almost every press manufacturer in the world now employs honeycomb to some degree. MHM as we all know uses it exclusively and has done so since their beginning. Additionally, there are many other press manufacturers around the world that have standardized their machinery with this material.
We have some experience with Honeycomb Aluminum and it's application as printing pallets. We began manufacturing with this material in 1993. Since then we have shipped many 100's a year. The use of honeycomb in our industry has many benefits. The material is amazingly light weight, rigid, and flat. Additionally it's temperature compatibility with flashing has been well proven. There are 100's of shops around the world that only have honeycomb aluminum pallets. Many of them are running two flashes and more in an already hot environment. The material is holding up well. In our many years of pallet development, it has never been suggested that one material is able to produce more shirts than the other.
While we typically advise HC to be used only for large format pallets, there are times that smaller pallets are made of honeycomb also. The exceptionally light weight material provides for an indexing operation that has the very least moment of inertia. This essentially means that it's easier to start to rotate and easier to stop it. Machines love this. They can start to spin quickly and stop on a dime with much less wear and tear on the indexing components. As for the print quality - the exceptional flatness and rigidity ensure that your print density is extremely consistent throughout the print range. Often times on solid aluminum it's possible to see the print density decrease towards the outside of the pallet. Among other contributing factors, this can be due to flex in the aluminum. The HC is far more rigid than the aluminum. The multiple layers of material are stronger than the one layer of material.
In terms of flatness, there is none better that I have ever seen. When two pieces are put together, it forms a vacuum because of the almost perfect congruency. This effect is noticeable in how the pieces have to be slid apart as opposed to pulled apart. When printing on them, you can be assured that your pallets are the most flat they can be.
There are downsides too of course - the honeycomb material is more expensive and it's not as durable as the solid. So - be careful with it. Once you pay the extra premium price it costs, you'll probably be careful with it anyway.
Anyway - I hope this added to your understanding of how and why it's used. Happy Friday.
-
I'm not sure who manufactured our pallets on the RPM, but we've gotten them way too hot before, well over 180 degrees probably when we were idiots but when I test them for flatness, they are flatter than some of the pallets I've measured on brand new equipment being installed.
Well, that is probably not the case for a press coming out of the shop mine came out of. They aren't the kindest to their equipment. The press is printing great, I am just ironing out the little stuff. The platens are warped...not bad, but I let my other press go with a set of 2 year old platens that I should have kept.
Oh, well, I'll just be spending more money at Action next month.
Thank you sincerely for remembering us sir!. We look forward to hearing from you.
-
what sort of a deal can I get? I just bought a full set of winged FB's and squeegees from you. ;)
And I can support you guys since you don't screen print anymore. (they quit back in the mid-90's)
-
what sort of a deal can I get? I just bought a full set of winged FB's and squeegees from you. ;)
And I can support you guys since you don't screen print anymore. (they quit back in the mid-90's)
Hello MK - Thank you for your recent order. It was a pleasure to have you come and see our shop again.
Regarding a 'deal' - How about Door Number One - Door number Two - Or Door Number three? ;)
Regarding quitting screen printing in the mid-90's - You are correct sir - Action Screen Print was an Original Printer ( OP ) in Atlanta. With 4 Precision Hydraulic Ovals running two shifts, many of the areas largest orders were produced there. I started working in my dads shop at 11 years old ( 1976 ). After I finished my engineering studies, this took the place of that within a couple of years. This type of work is much more in line with my tastes and talents and so the decision was made to focus on this. I've always loved the industry and never regretted devoting my lives work to it. I'm a lifer.
-
why the late start? I was sweeping floors at 5 or 6 and folding as soon as I could see the top of a table.
-
why the late start? I was sweeping floors at 5 or 6 and folding as soon as I could see the top of a table.
ILMAO !!
I hear ya! - When my 25 cent allowance ran out and i had no candy - I started looking for things to do to get more money to buy more candy. My first real job was mowing lawns and cleaning gutters. I would do the front and back and sides for $7 and bag it. The good old days!
I think I prefer what I do now...although I don't see much sunshine anymore.
-
Action,
Since you sell HC pallets what are the pallets you sell guaranteed to heat wise? If 180 then does that mean when being flashed? I know the head after the flash the board are in the 170 range for a second then drops fast (if I am remembering correctly).
-
Interesting question--I was actually just going to add--WHERE do you measure this temp? The shirt? The rubber? The bottom?
Seems like the top of the honeycomb would be the hottest, but you could only guess at that temp by measuring the top.
-
Action,
Since you sell HC pallets what are the pallets you sell guaranteed to heat wise? If 180 then does that mean when being flashed? I know the head after the flash the board are in the 170 range for a second then drops fast (if I am remembering correctly).
Good question Mr. Foo, but difficulty to answer. We have never guaranteed these for a specific temperature. I myself have seen temperature readings across the board ( no pun intended ) that came in from different printers. The challenge is that the max temp seen by the HC peaks when it's still under the flash. When you shoot right into the flash your reading the energy from the flash. By the time the pallet comes out and parks for you to register temperature, the drop has been significant. That being said - we have an MSI quartz flash cure that we do material testing with. We have repeatedly heated the material to the point of discoloration and not seen deformation. In our years of history with the HC material, I can count the claims on one hand.
-
Thanks for the info. Good to hear they are not a sensitive as they say. I always get worried when I leave the flash on too long when heating the boards or when I start a run and put it on like 10 seconds to get the flash warmed up and then 100 shirts in I for got to turn the flash down and the boards are almost too hot to touch.
-
Thanks for the info. Good to hear they are not a sensitive as they say. I always get worried when I leave the flash on too long when heating the boards or when I start a run and put it on like 10 seconds to get the flash warmed up and then 100 shirts in I for got to turn the flash down and the boards are almost too hot to touch.
You shouldn't do that. Pallet abuse is the number one leading cause of premature pallet death. We call it pallicide!
-
But what if it's extremely old, and really wants to die? Is pallanasia morally wrong? ???
The one thing I've heard many, many, times about how HC platens usually are damaged/delaminate was from dropping them.
Of course, they're so light, you SHOULDN'T have any problems... but that doesn't stop some people.
-
Can you repair minor dents on HC pallets?
-
I have heard high temp automotive bondo works. I haven't done it. I would make sure wgat ever you use is high temp and sticks on aluminum.
-
I'm a little out of touch, but I've never seen high temp Bondo, but would assume that a metal-filled epoxy like JB weld would be good for this as well.
-
Like I said I have never used it. Another shop told me his guys have dented the f@ck out of his boards. Then he told me high temp bondo work to fix them. I have never seen high temp Bondi either.
-
http://www.eastwood.com/usc-all-metal-gallon.html (http://www.eastwood.com/usc-all-metal-gallon.html)
when in doubt, check out eastwoods. This stuff is good to 400F
-
I actually now remember being told about an expensive body filler used when powder coating back when I was doing some gas tanks. ;D
-
[url]http://www.eastwood.com/usc-all-metal-gallon.html[/url] ([url]http://www.eastwood.com/usc-all-metal-gallon.html[/url])
when in doubt, check out eastwoods. This stuff is good to 400F
I'd not heard of this material before. It's less than 1/2 the price of the epoxy that we have been using. I'll be getting a sample of it. Thanks for sharing that tidbit MK.
-
just wondering, would the filler change the heat dispersion and make the platen have hot spots?