TSB
screen printing => Waterbase and Discharge => Topic started by: Spreading Ink on February 16, 2013, 11:45:44 AM
-
Ok - just did some testing this week using wb white Matsui 301W as an underbase with a partial flash (not fully cured, but fairly hot plattens) on a 8 color jumbo print at 55 line count (line count was a bit overkill, but didn't know if we were going to have to switch out for plastisol). We were putting the jumbo print over a 3 color all over print, but I wanted the result to be all waterbase and discharging the base wasn't an option.
Mesh counts were 280 and 300 - 280 for the base and the highlight white. We would have been lower mesh count and 45 lpi normally on something like this, but I was afraid it might now work and we'd have to move to plastisol for the overprint and didn't want to invest the time into a second set of screens.
Prints came out surprisingly well and over print covered great with no bleed through or show through of the under print.
Anyone else doing anything similar? The results were good enough I am considering this as an option for times when discharge isn't wanted or needed. More testing is of course required, but I am thinking some of the crappy purples and blues that use a large amount of indigo in the dye (indigo is the major reason most blues don't discharge well - as it takes an overdye to turn the shirts blue - one pass of the dye will not create a royal in the dyeing process).
We did have some drying issues with the white, but there were some fairly long periods of inks sitting around
Interested in hearing any thoughts, comments or others experiences with similar testing or printing results.
-
Hey, yes, we do on certain designs with specific substrates. Triblends and the like. The Matsui Opaque White works well for this. Flash with a cool down station and then wow water base on top. I have some samples at the shop I can take and post.
-
Oh yeah, I should say we usually reach for discharge but sometimes as you noted it just is not an option. And after a washing or two even with the Opaque White underbase the hand is almost not there
-
Is the Opaque White the Rubber white or the 301W?
We used 301W and had no hand in the print at all.
-
Rubber White? Hahahha, almost forgot about that. No, its not.
Crap, can't remember but it says Opaque White on the buckets. I would have to look on Monday or call/text down there in a bit. At the vet now with our 16 year old cat Angus and he is not having it!
-
Just looked at the Matsui website and it is not even listed. Not the Matt white or the mixing or anything else. Ill find out for ya' soon
-
Thanks Brandon - appreciate the assist.
Dave
-
Any issues with putting plastisol top coats on top of the wb matsui white HO?
-
We didn't do that - entire print was waterbase. We didn't mix inks at all.
-
In Australia, they printing a lot that way.
But they use Permaset waterbased inks. The Permaset flash white is very opaque and can be easily printed through a 205 mesh.
-
We didn't do that - entire print was waterbase. We didn't mix inks at all.
Sorry - wasn't clear. Just wanted to know in general, as I was considering it for a job.
-
Sorry I have exctreme back pain but will try to respond better tomorrow. You folks are on the right tract.
-
We tried the permaset a few years ago, but I wasn't really impressed - the inks dried in the screens way to fast (we live in a high desert type area). We have very few problems with water base and discharge in general drying in the screens, but I am interested in this technique for a couple of reasons - one to totally negate any hand from discharge itself and also to be able to use a more opaque type of white for printing sim process without having to knock out colors as much in the sep process.
-
Hey Dave,
I am wrong. It is a 301. But it just says 301 White Opaque. It is an ink that in the past we had to purchase directly from Matsui, like their Jet Black. We have a few gallons left and it does work great but we are in the midst of a lot going on with expansion and deciding which brand of water base we will be staying with in the future. But the one Matsui product we will keep is the shimmer which you can tint and we might keep a few gallons of this white around as well. Just in case. You never know
-
CCI has a new product for this. PURE WHITE its a ready to use waterbase white, its new. I have a gallon on its way to my shop today. Its about 25% more than the D-white to give you a idea of price.
-
Are you guys flashing the WB white and then printing your top WB inks? Can it be done with out flashing? It just feels wrong to me. Will the underbase WB white and top WB mix when in the dryer? I know when discharge over lapping colors will mix. WB and DC can make the mind go funny sometimes. Its like another language compared to plastisol.
I didn't get my gallon of pure white. I ordered it the night before my rep left and they didn't get it on his truck in time. I guess I will have to wait. Its ok I have plenty of other stuff to mess with.
-
Hey, yes, flash after the underbase white and then print on top. White is straight up water base, no discharge here.
And I just called my guy and have a gallon of that CCI White WB on it's way. I am sure it works just as well if not better. Will let you know next week
-
Thanks guys - I will get hold of our CCI rep as well and see if he'll give me a gallon for testing (they can be good to me that way). They are about 30 minutes from me and we do a lot of business with them so I'll definitely check it out.
Yes - as for print method - pretty much just like a plastisol print in setup with a flash after the base - the flash needn't 'cure' the ink, but simply set it well enough to over print with your colors. We have done high color water base sim process type prints with a discharge base for some time, but this is just something I stumbled across recently and there are times where I feel this technique might be more advantageous than trying to use a discharge base.
Brandon/Jon, I would be interested in hearing how your tests go. I have some prints that are being sampled currently - between 7 and 8 color jumbo prints on micro-modal fabric (basically a type of rayon) we are going to try this method with one of them and do some wash testing afterwards (before finishing the sample runs - 4 sets of art total). If it works well we plan on doing this for all of these prints for both the rest of the sampling and the production - I am not too worried about the prints, but am a bit unsure of how the ink will react to the material and the color fastness for the wash testing. I should know more by about Friday or at latest Monday and will be glad to post back on the results if you're interested.
-
Did the test today on the micro modal fabric (black) 100% water base using this method - print looked good - went out to customer for wash test - that's the test I am most interest in - how well will the wb bond with this fabric (some sort of soft thin man made rayon blend).
If the wash test comes back successful we are going to all of the designs we are sampling for the customer this same way.
Post more when I know more. :)
-
Dave does the waterbase white block die migration? I know that is a newbie question. I have only done 100 percent cotton so far with waterbase inks. I am sure it doesn't so how do you deal with that with a waterbase ink?
-
We used Permaset Supercover white on 100% poly dry fit tees. No die migration at all. But I`m sure it depends on the garment you use.
-
We used Permaset Supercover white on 100% poly dry fit tees. No die migration at all. But I`m sure it depends on the garment you use.
Those 100% poly dry fit tees suck. Non at all? Did you print flash print? Did you turn your dryer down like you would with plastisol or run them like normal?
-
Don't know about the dye migration Jon. What I can say is the print looked really good on the micro modal and had zero hand (black garment about 3.5 oz - kind of a pain to print on, but the customer does high dollar tees to boutiques with a niche product and market.
Customer got the sample shirts today and wash tested - no fading - no issues - loved the hand and colors.
Good to have another method to do things with wb inks now that will work when more standard methods we might use won't!
Again - we have not been doing this long so I can't say more than I know at this point, but the process seems work and allow flexibility in ways that I would have though would make a water base print next to impossible to pull off successfully so I am pretty happy about it all right now!