TSB
screen printing => Waterbase and Discharge => Topic started by: spotcolorsupply on February 21, 2013, 04:59:32 PM
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What if...?
We were to offer...
A Discharge ink with the following characteristics...
No Activator (Pre-Activated)...
Unknown shelf life... 18 months so far...
Designed to print (and stay) on the surface of the shirt...
No need to wash before you wear...
No nasty smell coming from the dryer...
Available in formaldehyde or non-formaldehyde...
Priced in the same range, or lower than most discharge inks...
Thoughts...?
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If it's on top of the shirt how does it work?
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send me a sample and I will let you know how we feel about it!
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I'd like a sample too... I'm looking to getting into discharge and this sounds like something that would entice me to try it out
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Biggest question for us smaller oven guys is what's the curing needs?
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brandon, discharge thats on top of the shirt doesnt make sence but any new products we run for. when sending sam his gallon samples send me a couple also and we will check it out.. thanks
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We print so much discharge White. I'd love to give it a shot.
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What if...?
We were to offer...
A Discharge ink with the following characteristics...
No Activator (Pre-Activated)...
Unknown shelf life... 18 months so far...
Designed to print (and stay) on the surface of the shirt...
No need to wash before you wear...
No nasty smell coming from the dryer...
Available in formaldehyde or non-formaldehyde...
Priced in the same range, or lower than most discharge inks...
Thoughts...?
Last time I checked Magna had a world patent on formaldehyde free discharge inks and they enforce it pretty well. So is it Magna ink?
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Hmm, I am VERY skeptical, so skeptical that I will need around 5 gallons of white and a gallon of each stock color to test it. Let me know when you will be bringing it by.
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If it's on top of the shirt how does it work?
Honestly, I’m not sure... This all came to us in the last week (Technically still in testing). Full Production starts next month.
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Biggest question for us smaller oven guys is what's the curing needs?
Same as everyone else.
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Last time I checked Magna had a world patent on formaldehyde free discharge inks and they enforce it pretty well. So is it Magna ink?
Not Magna... Might be a different chemical... Not sure.
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Hmm, I am VERY skeptical, so skeptical that I will need around 5 gallons of white and a gallon of each stock color to test it. Let me know when you will be bringing it by.
Be there next week buddy ;)
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Doesn't Virus make a discharge ready to go out of the container that can sit for up to a year? True?
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As we get more product we will be happy to work with you folks on samples. Give us a lil time ;D
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Doesn't Virus make a discharge ready to go out of the container that can sit for up to a year? True?
No clue, never heard of them.
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Doesn't Virus make a discharge ready to go out of the container that can sit for up to a year? True?
No clue, never heard of them.
Italians, no joke
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Doesn't Virus make a discharge ready to go out of the container that can sit for up to a year? True?
No clue, never heard of them.
Italians, no joke
Actually a cust of mine mentioned something like that... It’s not them tho.
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Yeah, ask Jamie and Jen at InkBrigade. They have some. Not sure if they use it or not
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I'm first, mk162 will have to wait!
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Hmm, I am VERY skeptical, so skeptical that I will need around 5 gallons of white and a gallon of each stock color to test it. Let me know when you will be bringing it by.
LOL!!! My sentiments exactly.
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I'd be very interested. Keep us posted!
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Doesn't Virus make a discharge ready to go out of the container that can sit for up to a year? True?
The Virus discharge still needs to be activated, but has an even longer shelf life then 12 month.
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Manoukian?
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How could you not be interested in that?
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Mo Info.
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What type of emulsion is needed?
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What type of emulsion is needed?
There is a companion emulsion for this ink that exposes in 3 seconds with film made at kinkos and a 40w incandescent bulb. Holds 65 lpi halftones down to 1% on a 110tpi.
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Now you have my attention!
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Mine too.
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Anything that works well and will allow for great quality (always got to be the first considerations) that would reduce waste and is affordable - well if it does all you say and meets the aforementioned conditions we'd love to try it out!
Hope it doesn't have too much tack that is important in the wb we use as well as that works against us on the large prints - and large prints use a lot of ink :)
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What type of emulsion is needed?
There is a companion emulsion for this ink that exposes in 3 seconds with film made at kinkos and a 40w incandescent bulb. Holds 65 lpi halftones down to 1% on a 110tpi.
Yeah, but quantities available are only enough to coat hat screens, so until supply can meet demand the recommended exposure unit is the re-purposed Easy-Bake Oven/Tabletop Exposure Unit from your friends at "Own-Ur-Own T-Shurt Bidness" . . .
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I have just been charged with getting into DC the other day. I would love to try any
ink as we are getting into the R&D stage.
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Brannon let me know if I can be of any assistance
tpepitone@imagebrandinggroup.com
843-554-3840
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Add me to the list if shops that would like to sample this!
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No smell........ basement printers dream :)
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This basement printer would love to try this. The smells and odors of the regular discharge is the reason I don't do discharge.
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Ill buy a quart...nothing is for free
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What type of emulsion is needed?
There is a companion emulsion for this ink that exposes in 3 seconds with film made at kinkos and a 40w incandescent bulb. Holds 65 lpi halftones down to 1% on a 110tpi.
Yeah, but quantities available are only enough to coat hat screens, so until supply can meet demand the recommended exposure unit is the re-purposed Easy-Bake Oven/Tabletop Exposure Unit from your friends at "Own-Ur-Own T-Shurt Bidness" . . .
SNORT!
Think I'll have to get more staples for my staple gun. Oh, and more mesh from Dick Blick.
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What type of emulsion is needed?
There is a companion emulsion for this ink that exposes in 3 seconds with film made at kinkos and a 40w incandescent bulb. Holds 65 lpi halftones down to 1% on a 110tpi.
Yeah, but quantities available are only enough to coat hat screens, so until supply can meet demand the recommended exposure unit is the re-purposed Easy-Bake Oven/Tabletop Exposure Unit from your friends at "Own-Ur-Own T-Shurt Bidness" . . .
SNORT!
Think I'll have to get more staples for my staple gun. Oh, and more mesh from Dick Blick.
So you have enough staple tape on hand?
Steve
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So the estimated time of arrival for this game changer is approximately when?
Steve
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I had a discharge once... not wait. :o Ink, how does it work as a base? You all test it out and let me know....
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Bring some by. We'll do some testing here.
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Update...
The manufacturer stopped in again this morning.
The discharge white is still being worked on, so it’s gonna take a lil longer.
Samples should be ready by the end of this week or beginning of next.
We should have samples of Clear discharge base, Clear WB base, Pigments, and a few finished colors in DC & WB.
I will update once it is in my hands!!
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I will certainly test this as well.
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I'd love to see it as well. The smell was always a deal killer for us, but I loved the feel...
Steve
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PCs and base on their way; testing this week.
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we look forward to your unbiased opinion tony.
And brannon, can you drop some by the shop?
Thanks!
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It would be a real game changer for us if we could print it at full production speed on a short electric oven. I am so envious when I see you guys rocking the water base and DC under base jobs.
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Well, this does sound like a winner on paper. I'd sure as hell love to test some of this stuff or at the very least, speak to the guys who are doing the testing. What could be better than a purely RFU discharge ink system...nothing comes to mind right away.
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Theres much to test and it will take time. Washfastness, shelf life, garment compatability are only a few aspects to be discovered and considered. I will be sharing results with Brannon first before we go public. Before we get the "NO FAIR!" blasts the reason for this is simple. If we find something alarming or negative it will give the manufacturer a chance to address it first before going viral. Thats what beta testing is all about.
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Samples, 2 distributors and the manufacturer will be in my shop friday to conduct some beta testing. Results will be posted here. Fingers crossed.
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Just started testing today. Interesting.......too soon to tell. Hats off to Brannon and others who may be distributing this as well as the mfctr for testing it in real time on actual production floors.
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I wish I knew the manufacturer so I could get my local supplier in on this before his competitors (who suck and don't deserve my business) get it. But for all I know the manu could already have secure contracts for distributorship and it wouldn't matter much anyway. Oh well, I guess being a mushroom isn't all that bad.
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you will be suprised when you find out who all has there claws wrapped around it. Will post results here friday after lunch.
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you will be suprised when you find out who all has there claws wrapped around it. Will post results here friday after lunch.
I just had a "power" lunch with a certain somebody who was potentially alluding to something. What does the company begin with? What letter?
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you will be suprised when you find out who all has there claws wrapped around it. Will post results here friday after lunch.
I just had a "power" lunch with a certain somebody who was potentially alluding to something. What does the company begin with? What letter?
if I gave that, it would definitely give it away. not sure I should just yet.
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you will be suprised when you find out who all has there claws wrapped around it. Will post results here friday after lunch.
I just had a "power" lunch with a certain somebody who was potentially alluding to something. What does the company begin with? What letter?
S
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Ok, that's it, I'm calling one of my sources and getting the info on this game changer so I'll stop thinking about it and move on with my life.
Well, nevermind, thanks blue.
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Wait a minute....is this a new dc ink or a new HSA? Two major players have HSA lines launching in the next few weeks but I know of no new dc lines.
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t quite ready for primeime is all I can say riight now. Just remember this is a product in development.
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Ok more testing this morning. Heres some details. The 10% yellow pigment load failed. Vibrancy practically nil. Last night I tried to activate it with ZFS but interestingly enough the crystals will not dissolve. Tried printing it anyway and where the crystals appeared it was popping. There are two red pigments; blue shade and yellow shade. I combined them to match our blood red 606. Again fail. The blue pigment is red shade and rather dull. It too failed. It's critical to note that I used a garment that had already successfully discharged so that factors out of the equation. Did i get a bad batch? Quite possible as this is more likely to occur in developmental stages. If not than this product needs to go back to R&D. I will be quite interested in others' results.
Again I am excited and encouraged that this process is happening and kudos to the folks behind the scene.
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doesnt sound good. will be trying here tomorrow, hope its better than that.
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hey, maybe it would make a better UB or straight white DC, it would make it easier to use for us lay people. ;)
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Possibly. I will be trying a white pigmented base shortly. The actual white ink is not ready yet.
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Brannon just called and it looks like they did indeed send me the wrong base. This was intended to be used as a clear UB and cannot handle a pigment load. Game back on!
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you had me dreading tomorrow, now it is back on!
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Be sure to ask if its the formaldhyde vs or the NF. My guess is the NF will be weaker
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It is the ZF version...
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Testing is done, it works, still in R&D, more to come! Thats as much as I can say right now! Stay tuned!
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Good to know. My replacement base is on its way. If I hear right, you should be able to come in Monday and print the same ink with exact same results. My ink (wrong base) was very runny how about yours?
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Didn't somebody say, on friday it will be public who the mysterious producer was?
But then again there is friday every week.
Boris
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I was in Kansas City at the DAX show last Friday and no one would admit to knowing anything about this new miracle ink. The Union Ink rep was rather skeptical. Any news on the testing?
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No one there would have known. At this juncture, it is not any of the majors. They wouldn't necessarily be aware.
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Right now I am am voluntarily censoring myself. Testing continues.
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Mystery, intrigue and suspense! All we need is a bad guy and a girl and we got a movie.
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Mystery, intrigue and suspense! All we need is a bad guy and a girl and we got a movie.
Fortunately, the last I heard, they have another forum ;)
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Mystery, intrigue and suspense! All we need is a bad guy and a girl and we got a movie.
Fortunately, the last I heard, they have another forum ;)
Copy That LOL! There for, I am am voluntarily censoring myself.
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Holy crap we Finally have some samples :P
I have 10 samples of the clear base that I would like to send out to anyone that would be willing to "Test" it!!!
Note that I just said "TEST"... DO NOT run a job with it... I’ve seen some good looking samples and heard great feedback form some printers, but this is still the first release of this product. I need more real feedback before I can stand behind the product.
If anyone is interested in "Testing" the product send me a PM or E-Mail, and we will get a sample on its way... ;D
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I'll take some!
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me too!
pierre
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7 left...
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GaryG- pm for shipping address, thanks!
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I sent you an e-mail...
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I sent you an e-mail...
Got it... ;)
5 Left...
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sent you an email as well guys ;D
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I emailed. I'm a small shop, but I use discharge daily and I'm a tinkerer by nature. Would love to test it out. No activator or wash before wear would seriously change things for the better in my shop.
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is it any different from what I already have at my shop?
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We could test it, but I'd rather see my sample go to someone like Alan or Pierre that are better experienced and more thorough with their methodology.
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I PMed you earlier, but I would love to give it a shot!
Thanks!
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
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That's it for the samples!! I'll try to get them out next week.
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So I was sent a quart of this stuff and did some (very) preliminary testing last night on a black Anvil 980. I used a 30mm pvc card to smear a thin layer onto the shirt and quickly cured with a heat gun. I also smeared a thin layer of matsui brite base with 6% activator (my standard discharge underbase, though I didnt add any printgen or fixer) and cured the same way. I'll post pictures shortly.
Thoughts:
-the brite base cured to a slight off white/very light cream as usual. This new stuff cured to a light coffee color, which unfortunately looks too dark to be used as an underbase (imo). Better than the black though of course.
-the brite base smelled like crap as usual. This stuff smells kind of like popcorn cooking when cured.
-consistency of the new stuff is very close to elmers glue, and seemed "stickier" than I am used to with the brite base.
-the ink deposit felt thicker and stiffer, though obviously smearing on with a pvc card isn't the ideal application process.
I am going to test a few other shirts and shirt colors through a 160 mesh 1/1 screen (my usual discharge underbase screen) out of the can, and I plan on testing an 80/20 mix with matsui brite white discharge as I usually would on problem colors, activated and not. Also plan on pigmenting it and testing a few other random things like drying time on the screen and running a wash test.
I have to say, I like the smell and not needing to activate, and it is definitely discharging the shirt, just not very well compared to the matsui. Definitely interested to hear other shops' results.
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We're making all new DC swatch books and could test a few colors using the base and my PCs. If the colors shift due to the base than that would of course be an issue for us but not for others perhaps.
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definitely share your results!
Out of curiosity, does anyone know what the chemistry is at play with this stuff?
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Got to test this out today. I have to concur with mimosa on color, ink viscosity and hand of the print. We put it through 150S mesh onto a Gildan black shirt. For reference we have it side by side with a Gildan navy printed with 50/50 mixture Dwhite/Premium base, 3% activator. Over print is PMS 485.
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That photo is almost identical to my results as far as the color variation.
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it is hard to tell from the photos, would that red be acceptable? Could this be a good use for it?
I don't know that I would use the dbase/white 50/50 mixture for underbase and if it's less it is not as white. Too much white on top made our test prints flake after wash.
so if top white is required, could the new product be a viable option? Yes, no, maybe from the guys who got a chance to test it?
pierre
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I'll be doing some underbase testing tonight with top white, red, royal, and flo magenta using a few mesh counts. My guess right now would be top white will be fine, Red is probably going to be fine, royal may not be, and flo magenta will not be acceptable. This is just based off my limited testing last night and from past experiences with those inks, but the coffee color is pretty dark compared to a standard discharge underbase, and a thin top ink is not going to have much vibrancy as a result.
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it is hard to tell from the photos, would that red be acceptable? Could this be a good use for it?
I don't know that I would use the dbase/white 50/50 mixture for underbase and if it's less it is not as white. Too much white on top made our test prints flake after wash.
so if top white is required, could the new product be a viable option? Yes, no, maybe from the guys who got a chance to test it?
pierre
The red is unacceptable, imho. The 50/50 mixture is the only white.
I would like to mix the Simplexity base with a Simplexity white (if they are making it) to see how bright it is. If you could get an acceptable underbase that way, this ink is definitely the "Gamechanger".
Of course this sample print needs to be washed to see if it will soften up a bit.
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Still wish I understood the chemistry. No rotten egg smell and no activator is pretty awesome.
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We tested some of it today. We had similar results as what's been posted already. We need to do more testing though. Am I reading that right above - someone is printing with plastisol on top of 50 base /50 D white??
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We tested some of it today. We had similar results as what's been posted already. We need to do more testing though. Am I reading that right above - someone is printing with plastisol on top of 50 base /50 D white??
Yes we do print a few jobs with the 50/50 mix. Have not had any problems...yet. If anyone tries this, use as long of retention time in the dryer as possible. We have ten feet of heat on an electric M&R Radicure dryer running 700f @ belt speed 4, which is about 2 1/2 minutes retention time.
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i made the mistake one time and ran some shirts with 80% white and 20% base...the print was insane, but the only thing that would keep the ink from flaking off was the heat press. worked, although I won't do that again.
I haven't seen my sample yet. I can't wait to try it out.
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But what about price ?. If its 3.50$/kg than good for our market. Otherwise magna , cci and rutland are best.
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The sample softened up considerably after washing. The tannish color of the base seems to have lightened up a bit.
@ noortrd, See the quote below for the answer to your question...
What if...?
We were to offer...
A Discharge ink with the following characteristics...
No Activator (Pre-Activated)...
Unknown shelf life... 18 months so far...
Designed to print (and stay) on the surface of the shirt...
No need to wash before you wear...
No nasty smell coming from the dryer...
Available in formaldehyde or non-formaldehyde...
Priced in the same range, or lower than most discharge inks...
Thoughts...?
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Zero formaldehyde its impossible. We know the chemistry
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if you add jacquard rongalit st liquid in your cci discharge. Its remains stable for 6 months.
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My first try with the discharge. I never tried it before because of the smell and being a home based shop.
First of, no smell.
Other than that, it is a bit too brown looking to be an underbase for a lighter colors.
I would love to see how the regular white performs because I print a lot of one color whites on black tees.
Brannon, thanks for the sample
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Here are some tests with the base in comparison to CCI D-Base Premium with 6% activator (used heat gun for the simplexity). Haven't tried plastisol on top yet, but the base, as mentioned above, is not yielding the same "lightness shade" as CCI in our shop, so it doesn't seem that it would be a good fit for us, as I think we're trying to go plastisol on top of dc as a staple method. If, however, it ends up mixing well with pigs (haven't tested that yet), it would be quite nice to not constantly be having to mix colors and add activator during a job to minimize waste -- and you could stock colors as you do plastisol inks now (at least for a year or so right?). So, I think it may have its place but the base is currently being outperformed in our shop.
Thank you Brannon for the sample -- you guys rock.
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We checked virus white ink and failed. The ink too much thin and after adding 16 liquid solution more thin. Also not work for polyblend fabrice. Magna white rocks.
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Thanks for the feedback guys!! All of this info will be passed along to the manufacturer for review... There is a white coming soon, so hopefully that may solve some of the issues you guys are seeing...
Brad... Sample shipping today... My bad
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You've got my attention, I'm excited to see more results!
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any updates from yous guys on this stuff?
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Not the most experienced with discharge, but mine
turned out like the labeled pict above.
Maybe some updated info / formula from mfg?
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i used it as a base on a metallic job and it turned out great. I had to hit a pms metallic, and I didn't need the navy of the shirt in the way.
I will say it doesn't give you a super bright white, more of a standard clear discharge, but with a metallic gold it was perfect.
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Matsui's new 301 Eco Series is PVC Free and HSA with hand because you can print the white under base through 180-230 mesh and the color through 305 mesh with standard threads.
We also have 3 additives that will help with all the different scenarios mentioned here.
1. Printgen MG is a retarder so the ink does not dry quickly in the screens. (3-5% by weight recommended)
2. Softener XA-1 is a ink softener to help with the flow of the ink and soften the hand even more. It can also be used like a silicon product wiped on to both sides of the screen for best production performance.
3. Fixer F is our cross linking agent that fixes the ink at lower temperatures which improves wash fastness and works great for the smaller printers that have electric dryers.
The final product is very soft hand with great wash fastness and Eco friendly.
Feel free to contact me if you are interested in trying this other solution.
Jesse Martinez
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Not to discount what you posted Jesse, but the idea behind the ink being discussed in this thread is discharge without needing an additive, for no hand light on dark prints or as an underbase without a shelf life or the need to mix anything into it. Using a waterbased HSA ink with a hand and having to add additives to combat different issues with the ink isn't really relevant to this thread...
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Not to discount what you posted Jesse, but the idea behind the ink being discussed in this thread is discharge without needing an additive, for no hand light on dark prints or as an underbase without a shelf life or the need to mix anything into it. Using a waterbased HSA ink with a hand and having to add additives to combat different issues with the ink isn't really relevant to this thread...
Mimosatexas,
I completely understand the thread and respect your comment, but I am just coming back from the ISS Show in Atlantic City where we showed this type of printing to printers that came by our booth and they where amazed how soft the hand was using my recommend option. Some thought it was discharge. I am not trying to knock anyone or product and an out of the bucket solution is always great, but in my experience every shop is different and we have many climates to deal with throughout the country and seasons in which additives are necessary to achieve great production efficiency and product workability. Also, the solution I am proposing is a true, certified Eco friendly option that I feel could be interesting to some and the reason why I post here as a consideration. I apologize if I offended anyone, but really I have good intensions to help printers with solutions.
Sincerely,
Jesse Martinez
Matsui Internationl
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No offense taken. I use your products every day as my standard waterbased and discharge inks, but as I said, this thread is specifically focused on an additive free RFU discharge base. I am just trying to keep on topic if you will...
I am also still getting used to a forum where vendors actively participate in the conversations taking place, and while it is great to be able to communicate directly with representatives like yourself, I think there is a fine line between adding to the conversation and presenting a sales pitch. I often see other vendors post in threads about competitors products, and i respect and give weight to the posts that stay on point and offer advice or insight instead of presenting alternative products.
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No offense taken. I use your products every day as my standard waterbased and discharge inks, but as I said, this thread is specifically focused on an additive free RFU discharge base. I am just trying to keep on topic if you will...
I am also still getting used to a forum where vendors actively participate in the conversations taking place, and while it is great to be able to communicate directly with representatives like yourself, I think there is a fine line between adding to the conversation and presenting a sales pitch. I often see other vendors post in threads about competitors products, and i respect and give weight to the posts that stay on point and offer advice or insight instead of presenting alternative products.
I totally agree and the last thing I want to do is sound like I am giving a sales pitch. I am new to this forum and Matsui, so I am very proud and excited to be here able to help. I have been in the industry over 18 years with experience in technical support, distribution, and manufacturing. I think its great that we Manufactures can recommend possible solutions within our product line, but including competitors in my posts can be sensitive and risky unless I have a solution how to improve a competitors product from past experience. I will try not to get too excited in the future and post to the relevant threads. :)