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screen printing => Waterbase and Discharge => Topic started by: Rob Coleman on April 05, 2013, 04:28:34 PM
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Hello all.
At the January Long Beach show, Mark Gervais - who runs a very large facility in Ningo, China - spoke to a small conference of printers regarding the how's and what's of water base printing. Mark is a very knowledgeable and accomplished water base printer -- High Solids, discharge, soft bases, and specialties.
M&R recorded these and have now posted them for viewing on their Facebook page. It is a series of 6 videos - a little more than an hour combined length. Link here to M&R Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/mrcompanies?fref=ts (https://www.facebook.com/mrcompanies?fref=ts)
You can also google "Waterbased PVC-Free alternatives". The link to the first YouTube Clip follows: Part 1 of 6 - Waterbased PVC-Free Alternatives - Separations/Film Output (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zPnRK-Ei_Q#ws)
Take a look/listen. You might gain a few "pearls of wisdom"!
Rob
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Looking forward to checking this out, thx.
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I've watched the first 3...
pure gold
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I thought you wanted a thinner stencil/eom with wb printing....time to try something new on Monday..also interesteing to apply the hardener when the screen is still wet fronm washout. I thought we had to let it dry after washout, then apply...
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This is awesome. Watching all of it later today after running errands. 52 autos.... holy smokes!
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Homer: He's using the HSA (High Solids Acrilic) stuff from Rutland (along with Magna Colors formaldahide free discharge). He is using the thicker stencils for the HSA inks.
Small bit of anoyance, he uses dpi to describe lpi.... I still would like to know how he gets 60 dpi (lpi) on his 135 LX and 160 screens.
Even with the super thin threads he uses, there has to be a lot of dots falling on top of threads...
I use the 150 LX and 180 LX mesh and I love it! Still not sure how he accomplishes 50/60 lpi on it...
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Colin: this is a good question.
To the group: if you have any questions for Mark, I will be working the Magna booth at FESPA in London end of June. Mark will be doing seminars on the booth. I will be happy to ask and post here.
Rob
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2
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Haven't watched this yet but Colin, we run 55lpi on 150/48 and 180/48 S or LX. You will not get dots in certain % ranges of course but it will hold that lpi surprisingly well. This is with a thinner coating of emulsion, 2/1 on the thin edge. Typically done with art that doesn't need the 0-20% or 80-100% dots on that screen.
It gets confusing with thin thread mesh b/c they are insanely versatile. That same 150 can be coated all the way as thick as 2/2 round edge and throw down a plastisol ink deposit that rivals any 110 out there.
135/48 holding 60lpi?....hmmm, it could work. Theoretically it could work just as well, better in fact than the 150 or 180 as they all share the same thread size and lowering the mesh count only leaves you with higher odds of not landing a dot on a thread. You would need an emulsion with fairly incredible bridging properties to get a thin, even stencil that will hold out for you through resolution and printing. Done right I bet you could get 20-80% on the 135 with the thinnest possible EOM and excellent, I mean imagesetter or near imagesetter, films. But I'm also presuming that was misspoken.
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I'd say from comparing specs with the different meshes: the approx. 10% more open area,
thinner thread with the LX- and -high quality, high solids, dense emulsion, hardener
and top line film output -- mainly the emulsion almost holds dots in suspension by itself.
As Zoo mentioned incredible bridging properties.
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Colin - thank you for turning us on to the LX. Kelly dropped off some two weeks ago. I am sold.
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Even with the super thin threads he uses, there has to be a lot of dots falling on top of threads...
One of the better things I picked up from watching the videos is that EOM help fix that, as he mentioned as long as there is even a partial path, the ink can still fill the whole dot after it gets past the mesh.
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the emulsion almost holds dots in suspension by itself.
Yep. I think this is why you can hold so much more on thin thread with the right emulsion/stencil. Your minimum EOM is lower with a thinner overall mesh thickness and your open area is higher. It puts a lot more on the emulsion than standard mesh.
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the emulsion almost holds dots in suspension by itself.
Yep. I think this is why you can hold so much more on thin thread with the right emulsion/stencil. Your minimum EOM is lower with a thinner overall mesh thickness and your open area is higher. It puts a lot more on the emulsion than standard mesh.
You are right Chris. I have found to many emulsions that just don't have the right "bite" for fine detail on either the 135LX or 150LX. The detail just washes off because of the lack of surface/threads to grab onto. The better the emulsions "Bite/Grip" the better you can print with those meshes. I found a couple that hold great, but they both have drawbacks. I have a Nuarc 3140 1200w Metal Halide unit. One emulsion from Ryonet which is a CCI product, the screens end up sticking to the exposure unit when it gets warm after 2 screens. It only happens with the LX thread however.... It also grabs the waterproof image on my films and rips it off. Again, only on the LX mesh. I have an idea why, but it's hard to put into words, and still doesn't make sense. And recently the Murakami Aquasol HV. It worked amazingly well. I loved it! Only drawback is it's low flexibility/brittleness. The edges of the squeegee can wear through the emulsion within a shockingly few number of print strokes. Regardless of post exposure/hardening/right off the exposure unit. So the search is on for a new emulsion :(
I have talked with both Kiwo and Ulano and neither one has done ANY testing on the LX meshes.... I had to explain to them what we as a group have seen, while throwing in my own personal experiences with the mesh and how each emulsion has reacted. They were very good conversations. Hopefully Ulano has a good single part that will do well with the LX. Going to try the QT Discharge next week Kiwo's suggestion fell flat unfortunately.
If I had a stronger exposure unit, it would not be an issue as Dual Cures work amazingly well.
Even with the super thin threads he uses, there has to be a lot of dots falling on top of threads...
One of the better things I picked up from watching the videos is that EOM help fix that, as he mentioned as long as there is even a partial path, the ink can still fill the whole dot after it gets past the mesh.
Right, that's because of the unique flow properties of both waterbase and HSA waterbase inks :) I'm loving them more and more each day.
Rob: Thanks for the link and the start of some great conversation!
I guess the main question about his lpi/mesh combo is the tonal area he is able to keep. Where is he loosing dots? Is he keeping 90% open? 80%? Is he able to hold down to a 5% dot? 3%? What is it for each mesh count? And yes, we are all aware (hopefully) about making sure our films/output device are calibrated correctly and our screens are exposed correctly and a 50%/75%/10% dot on computer/film/screen all look the same :)
The end result: His prints look amazing! So yes, he is definitely doing something right!
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Haven't watched this yet but Colin, we run 55lpi on 150/48 and 180/48 S or LX. You will not get dots in certain % ranges of course but it will hold that lpi surprisingly well. This is with a thinner coating of emulsion, 2/1 on the thin edge. Typically done with art that doesn't need the 0-20% or 80-100% dots on that screen.
It gets confusing with thin thread mesh b/c they are insanely versatile. That same 150 can be coated all the way as thick as 2/2 round edge and throw down a plastisol ink deposit that rivals any 110 out there.
135/48 holding 60lpi?....hmmm, it could work. Theoretically it could work just as well, better in fact than the 150 or 180 as they all share the same thread size and lowering the mesh count only leaves you with higher odds of not landing a dot on a thread. You would need an emulsion with fairly incredible bridging properties to get a thin, even stencil that will hold out for you through resolution and printing. Done right I bet you could get 20-80% on the 135 with the thinnest possible EOM and excellent, I mean imagesetter or near imagesetter, films. But I'm also presuming that was misspoken.
Chris: Yea, we typically will coat 2/2 with sharp side slow coat. We get amazing plastisol coverage with it! I was in love with it the first time I put it on press.
As for the halftones, yea... I have done that before with thicker thread mesh as well. It was something I actually used to recommend when people needed more opacity from a halftone underbase. Done right it's awesome. Depending, an underbase with a 60%-75% fill at 45-60 lpi worked great. Always test before production!
I was assuming, in Mark's situation, that he is keeping a full tonal range on the 135/150LX :)
And, oh heck yea, it's very emulsion dependent! :)
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Rob
thanks for posting this i just finished watching all of them , Great Stuff
Alan
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And recently the Murakami Aquasol HV. It worked amazingly well. I loved it! Only drawback is it's low flexibility/brittleness. The edges of the squeegee can wear through the emulsion within a shockingly few number of print strokes. Regardless of post exposure/hardening/right off the exposure unit. So the search is on for a new emulsion :(
I have the same problem with Aquasol and that's my only complaint. I have to run an extra piece of tape on each side to keep the squeegee from cracking and breaking down the mesh. Any advice would be welcomed on how to fix that.
I can't imagine 80-90% dot being held at 60lpi on 150S mesh. In my mind the open area is bigger than the dots of emulsion that are supposed to be there. Sure you'll capture the dots that catch a cross-section of thread, but there's going to be drop out where there's no thread for the emulsion to live.
The other end of the spectrum holding 5-20% dot I could see bridging properties of the emulsion being a benefit to keep dots even where the mesh isn't.
Wish I could FEEL the hand on the HSA's printed on higher EOM. I'm sure they still drop into the garment a lot more than plastisols.
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At the beginning, he was saying something was a dead technology. Was that Aquasol? I couldn't quite make it out and though he was talking about an ink called acrysol or something.
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At the beginning, he was saying something was a dead technology. Was that Aquasol? I couldn't quite make it out and though he was talking about an ink called acrysol or something.
Mark was referring to the Acrylic "plastisols". He calls them "Acrosols". I never heard that term before.
These use No PVC resin - use acrylic resin instead, but still use plasticizers. Many ink companies have dabbled in this technology - the main problem as I see it is the lack of durability to pass some of the major brand strict wash requirements. The surface abdrades much easier than a pvc-based chemistry.
I saw a lot of this in my previous life -- did not see on brand that would pass wash, crock, etc. UNLESS you too extra steps.....
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just watched this again tonight, really helpful.
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At the beginning, he was saying something was a dead technology. Was that Aquasol? I couldn't quite make it out and though he was talking about an ink called acrysol or something.
Mark was referring to the Acrylic "plastisols". He calls them "Acrosols". I never heard that term before.
These use No PVC resin - use acrylic resin instead, but still use plasticizers. Many ink companies have dabbled in this technology - the main problem as I see it is the lack of durability to pass some of the major brand strict wash requirements. The surface abdrades much easier than a pvc-based chemistry.
I saw a lot of this in my previous life -- did not see on brand that would pass wash, crock, etc. UNLESS you too extra steps.....
Has this changed in the past couple years? I feel like Sericol, Rutland and others have "acrosols" out there. They supposedly have very good drape I heard but require a flash after each color.
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They both do, yes. Rutland is the most commonly used out there in the brand printing world. Haven't heard of anyone using the Sericol, they had some serious durability issues, which may have been corrected, but I have not heard one way or another.
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I too have been hearing about the Rutland "acrosol" being used for brand printing and I was surprised. Is it used as a specialty thing or standing in for HSA with the PVC-free brands?
My last impression was that Sericol did one and was doing their thing where they only sell drums to ocean containers of the stuff so my guess was it just wasn't available to most of us in the states. I'm surprised it had durability issues, fujifilm has some serious ability to test inks I thought.
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It is being used instead of water base. Some companies have chosen this route, especially when printing smaller runs, 144's. This technology seems to be a bit tricky. Many ink companies have tried, yet failed to get passing results for brand durability testing.
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Interesting, thanks for update.
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The seminars that Mark gave were organized for Mark by Walt at a past ISS show, Walt is one of Murakami's salesman. Mark shares his years of experience with us and deserves a big thanks. Walt from Murakami and Mark go way back. M&R shot the videos and did the editing to preserve this once in a few years seminar by Mark. Mark is a big fan of S Mesh and our emulsions. At one time he was using SP-1400, but he has access to many of our emulsions that aren't sold in the states. 50 line 61 degrees is totally possible on 135S or LX 135. His work is incredible. Here is one,
(http://murakamiscreen.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/tiger.jpg)
To get good adhesion to the mesh you need to look at your degreaser. We provide a system from degreaser to mesh to emulsion. They are designed to work together. Our MS-degreaser really preps the screen well to hold onto the upper tonals where just an edge of the halftone will touch the mesh. All Murakami Mesh above 280 is treated to promote halftone adhesion as well as to allow ink to transfer easily.
For those having any flexibility issues with HV; what type of off contact are you running, what tension? This is news to me. If you want a really flexible emulsion with even better resolution than HV try SP-7500. Use MS Hardener for discharge on SP-7500, or A&B Hardener for a semi permanent screen. SP-7500 can be a little tacky, which was engineered that way to promote true film adhesion at a large LA printer. Heat up the glass enough and most emulsions can get tacky. Just put some talc or baby powder on the screen before you attach the film. Saves your film.
All videos are posted here as well at the bottom of this page: http://murakamiscreen.com/murakami-videos/ (http://murakamiscreen.com/murakami-videos/)
Al
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Pertaining to the 60lpi on 125-225 S mesh, you can hear in the video what that means when he says to make sure you use your curves and tonal adjustments aka tonal compression.
I am going out on a limb to guess that the smallest dots are in the 20% area (of a compressed 60lpi) and the darkest shadow areas lean towards the 75-80% area. Using the higher lpi of 60 can give you great image detail all in between those areas) with a more precise print or less gain. To give you an idea, the 20% dot in good film is like a 5% dot in your typical Epson film seps at 45lpi. Those aren't accurate numbers, because I don't know his exact percentages, but that's a good guess. It's all in the tonal compression and what you are trying to do with the seps. Also note in his examples of color and print sequence, you may find a blue printing before red and yellow above those and then a megenta. It's not set up by a dark to light or a light to dark,,,but what he's wanting to do in the seps. what colors is wants to get out of those and how he wants it to react with each other in the sequence. It's a good example of the thought process.
This is why you can hear of outragous lpi now and then. Most notably is Target Graphics. Check out their website and they tout 120lpi on tee shirts. From my conversations with them and seeing there samples, they typically print plastisol and the feel of the prints are very lacking in my personal opinion and would be much better in waterbase. The feel rough, hard and what I call scruffy. I believe it's due to flashing in between each color, not allowing the dots to melt together. This is like graphics printing in my opinion where each color is dried first before printing the next color (if I remember correctly).
http://www.targetda.com/services/screen-printing/hi-res-halftones/
http://www.targetda.com/services/screen-printing/hi-res-accucolor/
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Dan is correct, the tonal info has to be curved and limited on either end of the scale. True film is another key to the quality of his prints. Halftones are sharp and the d-max allows for a long burn time to get very strong durable screens.
(http://murakamiscreen.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/ScreenTrappersTeeResized400.jpg)
Mark also is the founder of Screen Trappers, a select group of printers who share their best prints to further screen print techniques.
This print is a 3 color HSA print. Incredible art and sep skills here for only 3 colors.