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screen printing => Ink and Chemicals => Topic started by: TCT on May 14, 2013, 09:41:11 AM
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Wondering what everyone's favorite/best discharge white is? We have used:
-Sericol
-Matsui(Bright white discharge and discharge white DSFP)
-CCI D-White
-Rutland discharge white
-Some union white that is not really worth mentioning
Out of all of those I like our results with the Rutland the best. Nice and thin, with great bright white print.
Just wondering what other people are using and if there is something else I may want to give a try.
Thanks!
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Still haven't tried the Rutland yet and the CCI D-white is the only one we've tried. I'm interested in seeing the responses here. I think the D-white is fine but if there is something better I will switch. I have a gallon of the Rutland in stock but I'm still waiting for the next white DC order to come through to test it.
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We like the CCI d-white alot. it gives a nice bright white on almost all tees we've tested on.
I'm gonna order a sample of the rutland discharge white today!
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I found the CCI D-White actually comes out as kind of a "natural" or real light brown/gray/silver(you follow me right :o ) and not a solid white. I think they had a bright D-White if I remember but the CLUELESS CCI sales guy advised against getting it.
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Rutland!
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I found the CCI D-White actually comes out as kind of a "natural" or real light brown/gray/silver(you follow me right :o ) and not a solid white. I think they had a bright D-White if I remember but the CLUELESS CCI sales guy advised against getting it.
we upgraded from matsui, which def. had that look, and the difference between CCI and matsui is night and day
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If you haven't tried the Magna SuperWhite ... may want to throw it in the mix. Dirkdiggler here has had extremely good results!
You can get great results from many different products --- there is no magic in a can! Applications. drying, etc all play such a big role in the final print quality. Products AND Processes I always say!
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I have tried ALL of them except Rutland, because they suck at servicing accounts in GA. Magna SuperWhite SMOKES all of them! And no, Rob didn't ask me to say this. ;D
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Just got back from a group event where I saw a lot of shirts from my first batch using Magna ink DC with Superwhite that have been washed and worn for the past few months. Really impressed with how the print held up! Certainly worth consideration.
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This one>>>-CCI D-White
I've only ran it v. Sericols HO White and blew it out of the water. Like Rob says, different in every shop as I've seen others post they did the same side by side and went with Sericol. For us, we rip through gallons of the CCI stuff.
I don't know of any white but D-white from CCI, are you thinking of D-Base v. D-Base "premium"? Not clear myself on the difference there, something about going through higher mesh counts?
The Rutland WB I used had dried pigment chunks in it. I freaking hate that. So I've kept away from the stuff.
This Magna White, is it ZFS or the other nasty chem?
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zfs, stinks up the whole shop, but prints beautifully.
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some other concerns are what mesh count are you using, what squeegee, 2 passes or 1, what % activator?
I haven't been that amazed by the CCI D-white so I will probably try the Rutland soon but I heard it's a lot more expensive too.
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We tried Rutland and cci - if Rutland could change what is a non-discharge-able shirt with ccis d-white to a dischargeable one, I'd say it might be worth paying through the nose for it. In our testing, however, no such luck. We have had fantastic results with the cci and I've seen one sample of the magna white which was nice too (but don't know their price). For dark color garments we will be running cci's d-white through 150 S mesh; for lighter garments, 180 S mesh. All using 65/95/65.
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This one>>>-CCI D-White
I've only ran it v. Sericols HO White and blew it out of the water. Like Rob says, different in every shop as I've seen others post they did the same side by side and went with Sericol. For us, we rip through gallons of the CCI stuff.
I don't know of any white but D-white from CCI, are you thinking of D-Base v. D-Base "premium"? Not clear myself on the difference there, something about going through higher mesh counts?
The Rutland WB I used had dried pigment chunks in it. I freaking hate that. So I've kept away from the stuff.
This Magna White, is it ZFS or the other nasty chem?
Ya my bad, there were two different bases. I am assuming that it is similar to what Matsui has with their "discharge base" and their "bright discharge base".
So it looks like everyone has tried CCI vs. all other brands except the Magna. Diggler- you haven't tried the CCI have you?
Looks like my list of things to do I have to give the CCI another chance(sound idea considering we have 10gal. Sitting on the floor) and order up some Manga, then report back.
Anyone that uses the Magna, is it nice and runny? The Matsui and Sericol were both a bit on the thick side, I like to break ours down to 1gal. size and put them in a container with a pump dispenser. Makes is nice and easy to distribute after that.
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some other concerns are what mesh count are you using, what squeegee, 2 passes or 1, what % activator?
I haven't been that amazed by the CCI D-white so I will probably try the Rutland soon but I heard it's a lot more expensive too.
It is worth every penny. I was a die hard CCI user until I tried it. Brighter than every test I ran with the two. Works better on tri-blends and 50/50's in my opinion as well. You know that old saying. You get what you pay for.... ;)
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some other concerns are what mesh count are you using, what squeegee, 2 passes or 1, what % activator?
I haven't been that amazed by the CCI D-white so I will probably try the Rutland soon but I heard it's a lot more expensive too.
It is worth every penny. I was a die hard CCI user until I tried it. Brighter than every test I ran with the two. Works better on tri-blends and 50/50's in my opinion as well. You know that old saying. You get what you pay for.... ;)
We also had real good luck with the Rutland on blends and things that usually wouldn't discharge well.
I don't remember off the top of my head what our CCI D-White ran, I can check when I get in this morning, but the Rutland was like $330 or something close I believe.
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I have tried ALL of them except Rutland, because they suck at servicing accounts in GA. Magna SuperWhite SMOKES all of them! And no, Rob didn't ask me to say this. ;D
I totally agree, the Magna Super White is the best out there.
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I'm using the Magna with the non zfs activator. Has a little smell when you are right over it, but the rest of the shop is not stinky at all. I am relegated to garage printer status right now, so the non zfs activator was the only way for me to go DC without annoying the neighbors. Worth it for me to deal with the Activator M shipping issues (cause I'm not getting direct truck shipments from Nazdar so I have to pick it up myself).
The Superwhite is really creamy, but I'm not sure I would call it runny. I do add a little water (around 5%). Printing manually the ink sits more on the screen and the water helps a lot.
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Hey Guys, SO I was wrong ::) the CCI D-White didn't turn out light brown/gray/silver like I said. When I brought it up to the guys, turns out that was just the base. The D-White does come out nice! We ran a bunch of it today and I am rather pleased with it.
Just thought I would update that so people in the future don't get the wrong idea!
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we've been running CCI white on red tees all day, and it looks great.
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the CCI Dwhite and Dbases also come in a "sweet" version that smells like baked vanilla instead of the normal baked urine smell, soo totally worth it, seeing as its the same price. 8)
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Sounds neat, how do you make sure you get the better smelling?
NFS?
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Let me just in into the DC discussion. I have just received the Discharge sample kit from Nazdar and I wanted to give it a shot.
The biggest problem for me is that I work from my basement :)
My question would be: Is there a DC color that does not smell really bad?
I see you mention CCI Dwhite and Magna. I have received Magna sample, but I do not know if it came with ZSF activator or "the other" one.
Thanks
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Let me just in into the DC discussion. I have just received the Discharge sample kit from Nazdar and I wanted to give it a shot.
The biggest problem for me is that I work from my basement :)
My question would be: Is there a DC color that does not smell really bad?
I see you mention CCI Dwhite and Magna. I have received Magna sample, but I do not know if it came with ZSF activator or "the other" one.
Thanks
It could smell like BBQ ribs and I still wouldn't run it in the basement. It is still just as bad for you to breath in whether it smells like rose or a rotten egg.
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Let me just in into the DC discussion. I have just received the Discharge sample kit from Nazdar and I wanted to give it a shot.
The biggest problem for me is that I work from my basement :)
My question would be: Is there a DC color that does not smell really bad?
I see you mention CCI Dwhite and Magna. I have received Magna sample, but I do not know if it came with ZSF activator or "the other" one.
Thanks
It could smell like BBQ ribs and I still wouldn't run it in the basement. It is still just as bad for you to breath in whether it smells like rose or a rotten egg.
So, let me put is a real new to this DC thingy.
Not only does it smell bad, but it is also a bad for your health if there is no good ventilation?
IS THAT THE CASE?
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Sounds neat, how do you make sure you get the better smelling?
NFS?
when you order your inks, just ask for the "sweet" versions. soo worth it.
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Yes, the odor is just annoying, but repeat exposure to formaldehyde is going to mess you up. And the non formaldehyde would be just as bad without adequate ventilation. I refused to let DC in the shop until we were fully equipped for it, highly recommend others do the same. Its safe when controlled properly but not worth it if you don't have the correct setup. Aside from health concerns it would also run really slow in a basement shop and that's no fun either.
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Thanks :)
I guess I'll save that for post basement time if it ever comes
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Yes, the odor is just annoying, but repeat exposure to formaldehyde is going to mess you up. And the non formaldehyde would be just as bad without adequate ventilation. I refused to let DC in the shop until we were fully equipped for it, highly recommend others do the same. Its safe when controlled properly but not worth it if you don't have the correct setup. Aside from health concerns it would also run really slow in a basement shop and that's no fun either.
Hi Zoo, are you exhaust venting over the presses? Or just the end of the dryer? Or elsewhere? We have the end of our dryers covered with exhaust hoods, but that's it. We're just getting to test the discharge (for the first time in 10 years anyway) so we haven't stunk up the joint just yet...
Steve
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Hey Steve, here's what I've gathered based on the little bit of lit that is out there take it with a grain of salt, I'm no chemist and have not yet had OSHA or someone in here to test levels in the air:
My understanding is that ZFS activated discharge ink does not release any significant amount of formaldehyde into the air just as the wet ink on press. It would be wise to maybe ventilate your activating area but while the ink smells bad on press, it's not releasing formaldehyde from what I've read.
We have a smaller shop and a significant amount of fresh air pulling through the whole thing at all times. This is just a good move all around for any shop, imho.
The big thing to mind is when the DC starts to do the actual discharging. Our old Texair moves a crap ton of air in the middle chamber out to a 12" exhaust duct and I think this, combined with the aforementioned constant exchange of shop air are the key things to have.
Unless you have a 20' chamber gas dryer or something your shirts are going to be wrapping up the dc process towards the end of the dryer and are likely releasing some formaldehyde, spilling out the back end into the area where your catcher is working. It's hard to tell with the regular fumes that come off a hot shirt anyway but that's my theory so we're installing an additional hood on the back end to suck fumes and also evac some heat. I'm putting the same on the front but that's just b/c there's an IR bump up front and I want to grab the ambient heat coming out of it's vent. The rest of the dryer is insulated and sealed. I see no reason to vent the front portion of the dryer, i.e., the belt as it enters the chamber, provided it's true that the formaldehyde remains stable in the wet ink.
Last off, if you are going to flash DC, like actually flash it not just zap a little moisture out, you better have a hood over the flash. Again, good, constant, overall shop air exchange is probably the cure all and a safety net.
The only thing I like about ZFS v. non zfs or alternative chems for DC is that formaldehyde is very well studied and there are exposure levels set that you can trust for the most part. We're doing some hvac upgrades (swamp cooler!) but I'd like to have someone come in after those are completed and test our levels when running DC on both presses, full bore to see where we are at.
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I just printed a few hundred blue tees with the Rutland DC white and I gotta say I think it's better than the CCI. I will have to take a few sample home and wash them but so far they look a couple shades whiter than my washed CCI samples. One stroke through a 156/64 with a White Knight squeegee blade yielded a nice white.
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I just printed a few hundred blue tees with the Rutland DC white and I gotta say I think it's better than the CCI. I will have to take a few sample home and wash them but so far they look a couple shades whiter than my washed CCI samples. One stroke through a 156/64 with a White Knight squeegee blade yielded a nice white.
I agree, although CCI is back on my radar after I cleared up my error. The Rutland almost looks like it has a slight neon or blue hue to the ink when mixing, you can't tell once it is printed, but it does leave a very nice white. As soon as I have a chance I am going to order up some Magna and compare.
Anyone heard of Minerva I am supposed to be getting some samples of it in and I guess I don't know much about it...
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I agree, although CCI is back on my radar after I cleared up my error. The Rutland almost looks like it has a slight neon or blue hue to the ink when mixing
I've mixed and printed the CCi and Rutland side by side and the Rutland definitely seems to have some blue added to it which can give the appearance of being whiter. Its a trick often used in white inks but I think it makes the white look a bit grey when printed on dark shirts ( I used black )
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I always liked QCMs 159 plastisol for that extra blueing agent. I'll have to check out the Rutland at some point- does it have that damn dry pigment chunk issue like the rest of their wb inks? It's the main reason I've avoid them after running half a gallon of it and having to stop to get pigment chunks out half a dozen times I felt that was enough. The issue could trash a lot of shirts in a hurry on the auto.
Alan wth is a "white knight" blade?
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Alan wth is a "white knight" blade?
It's a secret weapon I've been using for a few months. Joe has lot's of different variations of the smiling jack, different duros, depths of the articulation, the bevel on the same side as the "smile", etc. The white knight is a softer duro and it prints on low mesh like a dream. It doesn't do high mesh very well though. I think Joe is contemplating releasing a few different variations but doesn't know how or if they would become popular. Most of his blades would work well in shops like the one's who come to this forum, but in the wrong hands and very little knowledge on how to use them, the blades could get a bad rap really quickly. I like the four versions we use way more than any standard blade or triple duro. I use the Mannys and Dr. J's on the auto all the time, but the Smiling Jack is still the most versatile of the group. Flooding with a Dr. J and printing at 20"/sec with a White Knight through a 123/55 mesh can get you a one hit white with just about any size image.
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Cool. I have a jack here to try on the auto but have been breaking myself in with triple duros - 70/90/70 plastisol, 60/90/60 wb - since I know how they behave. The manny's were alright on the manual for higher detail wb/dc, specifically they do best on a 225/40 with white DC. I would prefer a softer edged blade however.
I see what you mean on the care needed in marketing blades like that, kind of like the newman constant force stuff. Most printers probably think it's junk b/c they aren't aware of how it's intended to be used.
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we;ve been printing with the smiling jack all week on a huge discharge/wb order we've been doing, and man is it awesome. I just overnighted two from ryonet for tommorrow.
That'll be 4 for us now, and they print wb/discharge in one stroke on our Xpress and Gauntlet. 160 or 230s tried so far.
They make printing white a BREEZE.
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I see what you mean on the care needed in marketing blades like that, kind of like the newman constant force stuff. Most printers probably think it's junk b/c they aren't aware of how it's intended to be used.
That was my thoughts till I took one with me (and then left it behind) to Alan's shop... once we printed with the Constant Force squeegees on M3's even my printer that hated them was sold on them.
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Well the jack is probably a much easier adaptation than constant force. With the jack/manny all you really need to do is change the angle on your holders and have good understanding of using "just enough" pressure as well as stroke speed and fill...ok I guess none of it's easy but using the constant force stuff, which I've done and yes it's amazing when it all comes together, takes a big systemic commitment that goes beyond simply having a press in parallel and reasonable tension. With the constant force you need high tension to really take full advantage which means very low o.c. and there are machine calibration limitations on many presses that will cock block you on that. A lot of newman stuff outpaced the machines on the market when they created it, probably less true with the newer presses today I would hope.
One stroke DC on the gauntlet would be great. We are one stroking some fabrics but others need the double to get the penetration I want to see...getting there though. I need to load that jack up into a holder and see what's up, we're already running the blades nearly upright anyways so it would be easy to adjust to.
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I tried the Magna Super White ZFS for the first time today and it was great on press. The humidity was high today but printed a couple hundred prints at 50dpi through 200s mesh on the auto with no drying issues. No water just ink with 6% ZFS, my CCI white was climbing the squeegee enough I had to base it down and add a bit of water so I wanted to try something different. Still have to do some wash testing but so far it gets a big thumbs up.
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its the best one IMO and I have tried ALL of them except Rutland.
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my CCI white was climbing the squeegee enough I had to base it down and add a bit of water
I found the same thing. We're 1/2 way through a 5gal. of the Image Technologies White, and it's a dream on the press, very runny, no squeegee climbing, no additives needed and very forgiving for dry-in. they seem to be a bit of a dark horse in the WB/DC world, but I'm going to try the bases and high strength pigments next.
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Magna have two version normal abaw and super white. In super white may be thay add more titanium white.