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screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: ericheartsu on May 26, 2013, 05:52:22 PM
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does anyone on the board have an MHM press?
Can anyone give me the dirt on them? i think we might take the plunge for a new one
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Contact Pierre at Blue Moon directly. He's got a lot of esp. with them.
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Look at your caller ID. Sonny will be calling you.
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Look at your caller ID. Sonny will be calling you.
Seriously???......... I work for Xenon now. I will be glad to speak to the difference between MHM and everybody else. Set up Set up Set up!!!!!!!
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Speak on Sonny
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You're EMPLOYED by Xenon ;D
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sonny, just email me!
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Which type of MHM are you thinking on? You may want to look at a S.Roque also. They were our two finalists, but for the features the S.Roque had the MHM beat by like 15% I believe it was. We got a ECO which is comparable to the S-type.
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You're EMPLOYED by Xenon ;D
You are correct sir!!!!!! (voice of Ed McMahon) Speaking of which I believe it is time for an order from you. What'll you have? What'll you have? 8) 8)
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Which type of MHM are you thinking on? You may want to look at a S.Roque also. They were our two finalists, but for the features the S.Roque had the MHM beat by like 15% I believe it was. We got a ECO which is comparable to the S-type.
I haven't even considered the S. Roque. I'll look into them. I think we were gonna get an Extreme
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Which type of MHM are you thinking on? You may want to look at a S.Roque also. They were our two finalists, but for the features the S.Roque had the MHM beat by like 15% I believe it was. We got a ECO which is comparable to the S-type.
I haven't even considered the S. Roque. I'll look into them. I think we were gonna get an Extreme
Eric, call me. I cannot type well enough to e mail. As to the S Roque it is a copy of an MHM S Type. Nice press but still a copy. The same as the TUF press was a copy of the MHM SA. I like the I Pad control on the Xtreme.
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Which type of MHM are you thinking on? You may want to look at a S.Roque also. They were our two finalists, but for the features the S.Roque had the MHM beat by like 15% I believe it was. We got a ECO which is comparable to the S-type.
I haven't even considered the S. Roque. I'll look into them. I think we were gonna get an Extreme
You would be looking at a ECO then. There is a guy that runs like 6 MHM's and has switched to the S.Roque. Out of respect for him I'm not going to post his info, but pm me and I'll get you the info. He was SUPER helpful for us and a great guy to talk to.
I have nothing against the MHM, but when I was in my final decision stages I did a lot of comparisons between MH M and S.Roque.
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Which type of MHM are you thinking on? You may want to look at a S.Roque also. They were our two finalists, but for the features the S.Roque had the MHM beat by like 15% I believe it was. We got a ECO which is comparable to the S-type.
I haven't even considered the S. Roque. I'll look into them. I think we were gonna get an Extreme
Eric, call me. I cannot type well enough to e mail. As to the S Roque it is a copy of an MHM S Type. Nice press but still a copy. The same as the TUF press was a copy of the MHM SA. I like the I Pad control on the Xtreme.
will do later today or tomorrow!
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Which type of MHM are you thinking on? You may want to look at a S.Roque also. They were our two finalists, but for the features the S.Roque had the MHM beat by like 15% I believe it was. We got a ECO which is comparable to the S-type.
I haven't even considered the S. Roque. I'll look into them. I think we were gonna get an Extreme
Eric, call me. I cannot type well enough to e mail. As to the S Roque it is a copy of an MHM S Type. Nice press but still a copy. The same as the TUF press was a copy of the MHM SA. I like the I Pad control on the Xtreme.
I am sorry I suggested a copy according to Printficient. I really have no vested interest or gain in either press, well that may not be totally accurate, another S.Roque would grow our numbers on the forum here to a staggering 3!
And really, if we want to split hairs here Printficient, wouldn't MHM kind of be a copy of a S.Roque? Considering that S.Roque as a company has been around and making machines longer than MHM?
Really I am not trying to start a pissing contest or argument here, I was just trying to give advice to a fellow printer based on my experience when deciding on a press, and having MHM being a finalist.
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The more and more I am active on forums, the more I come to realize that people have different tones to the way they type and can more than likely be mistaken for something it's not. So I have been setting myself to say what I say and not let how people take my post (for more than what I intended). I do my part and I set myself to be content with that. I've been less riled this way. I'm happier these days but someone else may not be...and so be it. I am less likely to know of it or be bothered with it. :)
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Which type of MHM are you thinking on? You may want to look at a S.Roque also. They were our two finalists, but for the features the S.Roque had the MHM beat by like 15% I believe it was. We got a ECO which is comparable to the S-type.
I haven't even considered the S. Roque. I'll look into them. I think we were gonna get an Extreme
Eric, call me. I cannot type well enough to e mail. As to the S Roque it is a copy of an MHM S Type. Nice press but still a copy. The same as the TUF press was a copy of the MHM SA. I like the I Pad control on the Xtreme.
I am sorry I suggested a copy according to Printficient. I really have no vested interest or gain in either press, well that may not be totally accurate, another S.Roque would grow our numbers on the forum here to a staggering 3!
And really, if we want to split hairs here Printficient, wouldn't MHM kind of be a copy of a S.Roque? Considering that S.Roque as a company has been around and making machines longer than MHM?
Really I am not trying to start a pissing contest or argument here, I was just trying to give advice to a fellow printer based on my experience when deciding on a press, and having MHM being a finalist.
Not to join a pissing contest but:
When in 1979 Mr. Manuel Sá settled on his own, occupying the garage at the house of a relative, in the place of S. Roque (Parish of Riba de Ave - Municipality of Vila Nova de Famalicão), he started a company dedicated to providing all kinds of services relating to mechanical metal works. He immediately focused its activities in the region's textile companies, where equipment maintenance, almost entirely imported, provided a labor market with many opportunities.
In November 1983, together with Mr. Joaquim Sá, a private limited company is created with capital of 1 million escudos and two jobs, being assigned the name of "Serralharia Mecânica S. Roque Lda."
While the core business of the company remained to be the provision of services, in 1984 the company created its first automatic circular screen printing machine. Since then he devoted himself to the creation and manufacture of these machines, definitely marking the company's evolution. At the same time also started the manufacture of thermofixation tunnel dryers. Their growth year after year has led to a progressive increase in the number of employees as well as the need for the company to find a space to fit the new reality.
Machines Highest Mechatronic GmbH - located in Austria, Europe - has been present in the screen-printing branch for more than 3 decades.
MHM was founded in 1980 and today belongs to the ARIOLI group – a vertical textile machine manufacturer most famous for its brand - the ARIOLI steam ager. MHM today is one of the leading specialists for screen printing machines and corresponding drying & curing equipment. The MHM product assortment consists of screen and graphic printing machines and accessories. MHM owns a large network of agents and distributors in over 70 countries on six continents.
All MHM machines are developed by MHM and made in Austria under strict quality standards and highly skilled mechanics using state of the art CNC and construction equipment. MHM is well-known for its strict quality control procedures: All MHM machines are fully assembled and only released after extensive testing and inspection. MHM until now has produced and supplied over 15.000 screen-printing machines worldwide.
MHM, due its large production capacities, state of the art technology, highly skilled and motivated employees easily meets market demands and customers’ expectations.
Quality, innovation, and a long tradition in the screen-printing branch contributed to the successful and world-wide brand of MHM.
You decide who's on first. ??? ???
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Ok, if that is all correct then I guess I was wrong. S.Roque may not be older, but that is not the whole point here. I never said or had a problem with the MHM, they are a awesome machine. I was very close to having a X-treme in our shop.
All I was saying from the get go was it may be in his best interest to check out a very similar machine. When it came down to it for US the price savings enabled us to get a larger machine. That coupled with the availability of add-ons, a "heavy user" customer review, and overwhelming friendless and desire to help that we got directly from S.Roque in Portugal. Made the decision clear for us.
Sorry I got my history wrong.
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What's the price on these sroques
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Ok, if that is all correct then I guess I was wrong. S.Roque may not be older, but that is not the whole point here. I never said or had a problem with the MHM, they are a awesome machine. I was very close to having a X-treme in our shop.
All I was saying from the get go was it may be in his best interest to check out a very similar machine. When it came down to it for US the price savings enabled us to get a larger machine. That coupled with the availability of add-ons, a "heavy user" customer review, and overwhelming friendless and desire to help that we got directly from S.Roque in Portugal. Made the decision clear for us.
Sorry I got my history wrong.
No worries. :) :) I said the S.Roque was a nice machine. I believe that the MHM still is the fastest set up of the two. The only thing I don't like about the S.Roque is that you still clamp the screen in. I know that it is only one bar but that is enough. MHM screens only move when you move them. When you remove a screen it can be replaced in perfect registration as long as no one has moved the reg. knobs. MHM is the only machine that does this.
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What's the price on these sroques
I don't know all the prices because I only got quoted on 2 machines. Both machines were the "XL" version the YOU was on par with the M&R Sportsman EXG and The ECO was on par with the ChIIID 2nd bigger version. Both M&R quotes were lacking features that were standard on the S.Roque, and If I remember correctly, the Sportsman version wouldn't do the imprint size(20x28) the S.Roque would I could be wrong on that but I remember there was a sticking point for the Sportsman. The M&R quotes also did not include the Tri-Loc system. So basically a MHM for a M&R price. Now, those were prices from roughly a year ago, I do know there has been a HUGE boom here in the US with people buying their machines, so I don't know if that effected the prices. Sorry I kinda answered your question by not answering it!
The only thing I don't like about the S.Roque is that you still clamp the screen in. I know that it is only one bar but that is enough. MHM screens only move when you move them. When you remove a screen it can be replaced in perfect registration as long as no one has moved the reg. knobs. MHM is the only machine that does this.
That one I am going to have to call BS on and I KNOW I am right this time! We have a client that seems to reprint the same design every 2-3 weeks, a lot of times with a color change with 1 of the colors. On the S.Roque it works out great for us, the micros on head 1 never get touched, and head 2 & 7 where we usually have a flash, we have those dialed in for their other two screens. When we need to run their job, we move the flashes over one place and throw their screens in. No adjusting at all. Same as the MHM as long as the micros are not touched registration is still there.
Eric, I am SUPER sorry I de-railed your thread so badly, I swear I didn't mean to!
The pre-reg system these machines have I think would work out great for you either way. Considering your issues from your "time suck" post a bit back, I would guess with a pre reg system like these machines have you would be able to easily get a few more jobs a day knocked out without a sweat. The Tri-loc and Newman systems are nice, but they can not come close to the speed of a MHM (or S.Roque) system. Like Dan said Pierre at Blue Moon has a MHM, and his name slips my mind but there is a guy on here from AZ that also has a MHM. Hopefully they can chime in and give you the lowdown on the machines.
Again sorry for the thread jack!
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no worries at all, both you and Sonny have been super helpful in this.
We had more work done to our press, which improved registration immensly, but it's still off on two plattens.
Also looking for a press that can help us crank out more of these bigger orders we've been getting lately. We just did about 10K shirts in 7 days, with 16 different designs.
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The only thing I don't like about the S.Roque is that you still clamp the screen in. I know that it is only one bar but that is enough. MHM screens only move when you move them. When you remove a screen it can be replaced in perfect registration as long as no one has moved the reg. knobs. MHM is the only machine that does this.
That one I am going to have to call BS on and I KNOW I am right this time! We have a client that seems to reprint the same design every 2-3 weeks, a lot of times with a color change with 1 of the colors. On the S.Roque it works out great for us, the micros on head 1 never get touched, and head 2 & 7 where we usually have a flash, we have those dialed in for their other two screens. When we need to run their job, we move the flashes over one place and throw their screens in. No adjusting at all. Same as the MHM as long as the micros are not touched registration is still there.
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I stand corrected. The one I saw would not do that. Good to know that there are options out there. Auto presses should make life easier not harder. TCT again my apologies for riling you up. Love your passion. Go put some ink on underwear. ;) ;) 8) 8) :o :o
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Eric, our Synchro S type is about 9 years old now. We absolutely love the thing, and when the time comes to replace our '94 Gauntlet S, MHM will most likely get the nod, but we look at everyone. When we bought ours originally, we couldn't get Anatol to call us back, so we went to either M&R or MHM. The MHM's Film Placement Unit was what really made the choice for us after seeing both presses in operation and talking with the owners. And the fact that with price being relatively the same at the time, the fact that
MHM's features were built in, not add on options, made the choice easier. But don't get me wrong, I'll talk up M&R all day, great company. Now, in an awful lot of years in the trade, I thought S Roque was fairly new, but apparently I was not in class the day they were mentioned, having a good thirty years under their belt. Check out everything...
Steve
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so out of curiosity, nobody knows any approximate pricing on the s-roque machines? like say a 12 co XL? just curious as to what they are actually pricing them at if people can say they are better priced than the other popular machines, they have to have a number right ;D
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I had the pricing, but can't remember. Call tech support SPS and ask Alan.
From what I can remember, I think they were something like 10% less than an MHM, but with more features.
Sonny, they actually offer a setup where anybody with an MHM can keep using their MHM FPU.
pierre
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they actually have 5 different systems. 2 pin systems, theirs and one to use with MHM, Standard air clamps like everyone has, Newman pin system, latteral frame which I believe is the their Pin system just on the side of the screens instead of the end. One thing that is important about the SRoque to know is that you need to ask for what you want. They aren't very forthcoming in what they can do, but they can do just about anything you would want, but you have to ask. They will make special print programs for you (providing it can be done on an auto), cut special pallets etc. but ASK. I lost out on that boat because I nor anyone else knew. There is a lot I would've probably done differently had I known Everything that could have been done.
~Ryan
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they actually have 5 different systems. 2 pin systems, theirs and one to use with MHM, Standard air clamps like everyone has, Newman pin system, latteral frame which I believe is the their Pin system just on the side of the screens instead of the end. One thing that is important about the SRoque to know is that you need to ask for what you want. They aren't very forthcoming in what they can do, but they can do just about anything you would want, but you have to ask. They will make special print programs for you (providing it can be done on an auto), cut special pallets etc. but ASK. I lost out on that boat because I nor anyone else knew. There is a lot I would've probably done differently had I known Everything that could have been done.
~Ryan
sroque guys are a great bunch and the press looks like a better product than just about anything else out there. At the end of the day, I would still take the MHM. There are shortcomings to both, but I like the way MHM is engineered better. If MHM was out of business, sroque would be our first choice.
All said and done though, you owe it to yourself to look at M&R too. With a triloc you should be able to register pretty quickly and just like many other things, design philosophy is rather personal and you might like a Sportsman better. All three are good presses and will make you money. They all have areas where they excel over others so in the end you should get the press that makes you happy!
pierre
p.s. did I mention I really like our MHM?
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i'm not opposed to m&R, but i don't like that the triloc has to be fitted to our exposure unit. We do standard 23x31 frames, but we also do 36"x43" frames for our flatstock dept, so the trilock would be in the way on our richmond
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Also, i don't like that in the past the M&R plattens come up to the screens, that always bugged me. but i believe on the newer presses they don't do that.
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Also, i don't like that in the past the M&R plattens come up to the screens, that always bugged me. but i believe on the newer presses they don't do that.
That was A HUGE if not the main deciding factor for us. The MHM and S.Roque style I like better, it allows for multiple jobs to be set up tested/printed and then just turn that head off. There is no need to put pallet tape or block off the shirt side of the screen once there is ink in it if you are going to leave the screen in and run another job. All I could find for M&R that did that was the Alpha 8, and it looks like the old formulas, but I was told those are not sold anymore.
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One thing that is important about the SRoque to know is that you need to ask for what you want.
~Ryan
Like a on/off switch?! ;D
Seeing that Ryan ordered his before mine, all I asked for was to make mine better than his :P
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Also, i don't like that in the past the M&R plattens come up to the screens, that always bugged me. but i believe on the newer presses they don't do that.
That was A HUGE if not the main deciding factor for us. The MHM and S.Roque style I like better, it allows for multiple jobs to be set up tested/printed and then just turn that head off. There is no need to put pallet tape or block off the shirt side of the screen once there is ink in it if you are going to leave the screen in and run another job. All I could find for M&R that did that was the Alpha 8, and it looks like the old formulas, but I was told those are not sold anymore.
I see how setting up multiple jobs on a press with the pallet carousel raising and lowering to the screens could be a problem...if the press were so uncalibrated and you're printing with very little/no off contact. Has this been an issue at your shops with other machines that the pallet carousel raises and lowers? Anyone? I know there are some machines out there that aren't calibrated worth a damn so I do believe it can be an issue but surely nobody on this forum has a press that far out of whack. We don't set up multiple jobs on the auto very often but when we do there are no issues or taping of screens and worrying about buildup on screens that aren't being printed. BUT, I will agree that I do like the auto that does have the print arm lift ability like I learned on with the American Centurian. There is no doubt in my mind that there is no faster setup than the MHM. Along with the touchscreen control panel and robust operating interface that allows for tons of upgrades just by updating some software. When I see the videos of the MHM machines I'm always amazed that they haven't had more of an impact here in the states. I know there is a lot more to selling autos than just the features of the machine and they have not done the job necessary in the other areas to gain more market share and those things are obviously very important and we see how M&R has done business and has developed loyalty without necessarily having the bells and whistles that are sexy to a lot of guys like me. The first press I ever saw at a show my first year in this industry was an MHM E-type and at that moment I knew we would be getting a new auto to replace the centurian but when the time came to buy, unfortunately the MHM didn't factor in the decision because of a few of those "other things" besides the machines. Now that we are quickly outgrowing the one auto, I will look at the MHM again and give them another opportunity but there is a major issue with having two completely different machines on the floor with two different regi systems to deal with. Ok, rambling over, but I do love the MHM machines.
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Also, i don't like that in the past the M&R plattens come up to the screens, that always bugged me. but i believe on the newer presses they don't do that.
That was A HUGE if not the main deciding factor for us. The MHM and S.Roque style I like better, it allows for multiple jobs to be set up tested/printed and then just turn that head off. There is no need to put pallet tape or block off the shirt side of the screen once there is ink in it if you are going to leave the screen in and run another job. All I could find for M&R that did that was the Alpha 8, and it looks like the old formulas, but I was told those are not sold anymore.
I see how setting up multiple jobs on a press with the pallet carousel raising and lowering to the screens could be a problem...if the press were so uncalibrated and you're printing with very little/no off contact. Has this been an issue at your shops with other machines that the pallet carousel raises and lowers? Anyone? I know there are some machines out there that aren't calibrated worth a damn so I do believe it can be an issue but surely nobody on this forum has a press that far out of whack. We don't set up multiple jobs on the auto very often but when we do there are no issues or taping of screens and worrying about buildup on screens that aren't being printed. BUT, I will agree that I do like the auto that does have the print arm lift ability like I learned on with the American Centurian. There is no doubt in my mind that there is no faster setup than the MHM. Along with the touchscreen control panel and robust operating interface that allows for tons of upgrades just by updating some software. When I see the videos of the MHM machines I'm always amazed that they haven't had more of an impact here in the states. I know there is a lot more to selling autos than just the features of the machine and they have not done the job necessary in the other areas to gain more market share and those things are obviously very important and we see how M&R has done business and has developed loyalty without necessarily having the bells and whistles that are sexy to a lot of guys like me. The first press I ever saw at a show my first year in this industry was an MHM E-type and at that moment I knew we would be getting a new auto to replace the centurian but when the time came to buy, unfortunately the MHM didn't factor in the decision because of a few of those "other things" besides the machines. Now that we are quickly outgrowing the one auto, I will look at the MHM again and give them another opportunity but there is a major issue with having two completely different machines on the floor with two different regi systems to deal with. Ok, rambling over, but I do love the MHM machines.
we have an E-type that moves teh platens and don't have any issues with multiple jobs on the press (do it every day). Well, if we are printing fleece or something thicker it becomes a problem and every now and then we forget to raise the other jobs, but it happens maybe once a year and we just blow the stuff out on the first few prints. Not a big deal. . .
pierre
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I see how setting up multiple jobs on a press with the pallet carousel raising and lowering to the screens could be a problem...if the press were so uncalibrated and you're printing with very little/no off contact. Has this been an issue at your shops with other machines that the pallet carousel raises and lowers? Anyone? I know there are some machines out there that aren't calibrated worth a damn so I do believe it can be an issue but surely nobody on this forum has a press that far out of whack.
Ehemmmm..... It's called a anatol.
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If I've learned one thing about running an auto so far is that it's all about setup times. They all print fast as hell once setup, the new ones especially. If you are at the point where you need a high production machine and your typical job is multi color, well you already know that scheduling is the game and you are always playing against time to get the orders out, so you need to keep the thing spinning every minute you have your crew in the shop. Buying new I would immediately default to the presses with lickety split setup built in form the ground up. MHM and sRoque both appear to have that nailed.
We're ok with the gauntlet as most of what's run on it is low color count so the setup is neither here nor there. I've only ran maybe 10 jobs on it and I'm already at the point where it takes maybe 5-10 min per color to get rolling. The pin lock nails multi color butt reg on the first go pretty easily but when it doesn't you might have just lost an hour or more to releasing sq pressure, adjusting stupid micros, test printing, repeating. Without pre reg though it would be an exercise in wasting overhead.
This issue with the sq pressure, is it still present on newer M&R presses? There is zero reason, imho, for either the sq or flood to be resting on the screen if it's not stroking, this just causes problems all around. On the Gauntlet it's the #1 design flaw by far- you can't adjust micros, can't use the "print start" mode as freshly tacked platens will get stuck to the sq pressure area and "snap" the screen on table down, flanging ink all over the place, if not also trashing your stencil, you get this super great pressure line on every shirt from the sq rest area, you have constant pressure on the screen which is obviously not beneficial and yes you need to apply excessive blockout and then tape to both the top and sometimes the bottom of the sq rest area -it's just plain stupid any way you look at it and would take no more than a dedicated valve to solve it. Buying new I wouldn't even consider a press that does this, no matter the service or quality. I do understand why anyone would even consider building this way as it keeps that cost down with less parts involved and of course is part of why these presses never die, there's less to break.
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This issue with the sq pressure, is it still present on newer M&R presses? There is zero reason, imho, for either the sq or flood to be resting on the screen if it's not stroking, this just causes problems all around. On the Gauntlet it's the #1 design flaw by far- you can't adjust micros, can't use the "print start" mode as freshly tacked platens will get stuck to the sq pressure area and "snap" the screen on table down, flanging ink all over the place, if not also trashing your stencil, you get this super great pressure line on every shirt from the sq rest area, you have constant pressure on the screen which is obviously not beneficial and yes you need to apply excessive blockout and then tape to both the top and sometimes the bottom of the sq rest area -it's just plain stupid any way you look at it and would take no more than a dedicated valve to solve it. Buying new I wouldn't even consider a press that does this, no matter the service or quality. I do understand why anyone would even consider building this way as it keeps that cost down with less parts involved and of course is part of why these presses never die, there's less to break.
It's present on our Diamondback which we bought in 2010. Dumbest thing ever to have on an auto especially when using revolver mode for low quantity high color jobs. I remember it hitting the black squeegee down on a hockey jersey and because not all the platens were full there was emulsion missing, so a tiny bit of ink not even 1/8" square went on the jersey, then when it went to flash the 2nd time the black burned through the jersey. Also the pressure marks at the bottom are the worst. Early on I had a job of 50 tri blends 5 color, full 12x15" print, tons of ink going down so I flashed them 3x. Worst pressure marks ever on those shirts.
Anyway they improved the Diamondback 5x so this wouldn't be an issue anymore but I kinda hate our press. Especially when we do 1-10k piece jobs and can't get it faster than 45dz/hr. I can't wait for us to get a real press. I like the idea of those arms lifting up on the MHM and Sroque. Also those micros sure do look awesome on MHM.
It's all about fastest setups today, all of the 'real' presses can run at 60dz/hr or more easily and most jobs for everyone here are under 1k pieces anyway.
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thats only an issue on our 98 gauntlet if we have too much flood pressure. back off the flood pressure and its not an issue for us at least.
i should add the same could be said for the 91 gauntlet i learned to use in '93.
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Admiral, why can't you get your press to cycle faster than 45dz./hr?
The fastest I have seen that we could cycle our anatol was 67dz./hr. That press is all air.
We successfully ran the S.Roque at 1020pc./hr or 85dz/hr.(the S.Roque counts by pieces per hour by default) the other day for like 35 min. I was blown away, and we still had a dwell on. If we can keep that up and improve we may have to compete in the next M&R challenge!
One thing I noticed that seemed to speed things up, is the S.Roque by default prints as if you were printing WB ink. So it prints, lifts the head and while it is indexing it is also flooding the screen. Kinda backwards from what I was used to. It has the option to change it, but I got used to it quickly. I would imagine if other people set their press up to flood first or during indexing it may speed up the printing. We can't try it on our anatol because if you want to flood first, it puts a 1 second delay which defeats the purpose. I would be interested if others if they switch theirs if it speeds printing up?
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Admiral,
So it prints, lifts the head and while it is indexing it is also flooding the screen. Kinda backwards from what I was used to.
That is how my MHM prints. Prints then floods when indexing. I have had my press up to 520 shirts an hour. I was loading and unloading. I know a guy locally that prints jobs at or over 1000 an hour. The bottle neck is the loader and some shops the dryer.
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One thing I noticed that seemed to speed things up, is the S.Roque by default prints as if you were printing WB ink. So it prints, lifts the head and while it is indexing it is also flooding the screen. Kinda backwards from what I was used to. It has the option to change it, but I got used to it quickly.
Pre-Flood! 4 months before I got that figured out. Had to ask at the show in Atlantic City. Unfortunately their english "translations" make no sense. If you have to double stroke (I know, your doing it wrong if you have to do that) but have you tried the P/F/P while in the down position without the heads picking up? 10% faster.
That being said, I think we are coming into the golden age of presses. New competitiors, faster presses, more technology is resulting in better competition which is good for all us ink jockeys. I don't think you can really buy a "bad" press now a days. After all they only print t-shirts right ;)
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I'd agree a 'park' mode for sq/fl is a great feature, especially setup/teardown, and color changes.
If I get the point of why M&R designed the air systems the way they did on the Gauntlets (and others) it's simple economics--you have a single ganged mac valve that controls the choppers and the stroke cylinder--triple the mac valves, triple the IO interface, and more headaches for the programmers.
Kind of a moot point now that everyone seems to be going straight to PC type solutions for controlling presses, but having worked on PCs for many years, that makes me think I'll be sticking to the older ones as long as I can. ;D
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Admiral, why can't you get your press to cycle faster than 45dz./hr?
The fastest I have seen that we could cycle our anatol was 67dz./hr. That press is all air.
We successfully ran the S.Roque at 1020pc./hr or 85dz/hr.(the S.Roque counts by pieces per hour by default) the other day for like 35 min. I was blown away, and we still had a dwell on. If we can keep that up and improve we may have to compete in the next M&R challenge!
One thing I noticed that seemed to speed things up, is the S.Roque by default prints as if you were printing WB ink. So it prints, lifts the head and while it is indexing it is also flooding the screen. Kinda backwards from what I was used to. It has the option to change it, but I got used to it quickly. I would imagine if other people set their press up to flood first or during indexing it may speed up the printing. We can't try it on our anatol because if you want to flood first, it puts a 1 second delay which defeats the purpose. I would be interested if others if they switch theirs if it speeds printing up?
flooding happens during indexing without having the flood set to front on the Diamondback
The very fastest I had it going as 47dz/hr and that's with a small print and the squeegee going very fast even if it was an A/C head.
It dry cycles at 52-53dz/hr. It's just a slow entry level press. Air indexing is not fun.
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I see how setting up multiple jobs on a press with the pallet carousel raising and lowering to the screens could be a problem...if the press were so uncalibrated and you're printing with very little/no off contact. Has this been an issue at your shops with other machines that the pallet carousel raises and lowers? Anyone? I know there are some machines out there that aren't calibrated worth a damn so I do believe it can be an issue but surely nobody on this forum has a press that far out of whack.
Ehemmmm..... It's called a anatol.
HEY! Not ALL Anatols are uncalibrated hunks of junk! The only time I have an issue with multi-job setup is with fleece or seams that kiss the under side of a screen they're not supposed to. Occasionally I'll have a ganged screen's opposite end ghost on a shirt because I was too lazy to tape over it when I flipped it around. I don't really see that as a reason to choose a press that doesn't table-up though. I have had more than one job set up on my press less than 5 times and it was only because we either misprinted a few, were shorted garments, or defects, so I loaded up more screens to do another job.
55dz/hr is approaching my limit for loading accuracy and sustainability for continuous loading.
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I see how setting up multiple jobs on a press with the pallet carousel raising and lowering to the screens could be a problem...if the press were so uncalibrated and you're printing with very little/no off contact. Has this been an issue at your shops with other machines that the pallet carousel raises and lowers? Anyone? I know there are some machines out there that aren't calibrated worth a damn so I do believe it can be an issue but surely nobody on this forum has a press that far out of whack.
Ehemmmm..... It's called a anatol.
HEY! Not ALL Anatols are uncalibrated hunks of junk! The only time I have an issue with multi-job setup is with fleece or seams that kiss the under side of a screen they're not supposed to. Occasionally I'll have a ganged screen's opposite end ghost on a shirt because I was too lazy to tape over it when I flipped it around. I don't really see that as a reason to choose a press that doesn't table-up though. I have had more than one job set up on my press less than 5 times and it was only because we either misprinted a few, were shorted garments, or defects, so I loaded up more screens to do another job.
55dz/hr is approaching my limit for loading accuracy and sustainability for continuous loading.
You are right I shouldn't of said that, guess it was meant to be more of a joke than anything. anatol can make a good machine, as long as it runs and there are no issues it can be fine. Heck, I am choosing to keep my old one and still use it, I can't justify letting it go for $10-$12K. 1 color & 2 color basic jobs I will run on that thing all day. And in anatol's defence(can't believe I'm doing this) I did buy pretty much the smallest cheapest press they had. Nothing else would fit in our first location!
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You are right I shouldn't of said that, guess it was meant to be more of a joke than anything. anatol can make a good machine, as long as it runs and there are no issues it can be fine. Heck, I am choosing to keep my old one and still use it, I can't justify letting it go for $10-$12K. 1 color & 2 color basic jobs I will run on that thing all day. And in anatol's defence(can't believe I'm doing this) I did buy pretty much the smallest cheapest press they had. Nothing else would fit in our first location!
Haha no offense taken!
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I've thought about adding a bigger servo motor to our machine if our servo ever goes out. Our press will dry cycle at 1020 pcs/hr and will print at that pace with up to a 15" design if we can move the squeegee that fast. But ink and mesh count can slow the print speed down a lot. I only flood fast enough so that the flood stroke finishes a split second before the index is finished. We also run our flash units in unison with the print stroke so that there is usually no dwell time or bottle necking due to the flash unit, or a flood stroke, or even a squeegee stroke. Our servo return happens when the carousel is in the up position and the print sequence is ending right about the time the servo is back in it's home position. There have been times where we are waiting on a long squeegee stroke with thick inks but for the most part, everything is in unison with each other and we control the speed by setting our dwell time in the carousel down position. At one second dwell time the press is running about 800-850 pcs/hr. When I'm operating I usually keep it around .5-1 second dwell but on an easy loading shirt with a left chest I'll run the press with zero dwell and it's humming along at 1000/hr. It's not easy to keep up that pace though.
I do agree with us being in the golden age of autos. The mid/late 90's were not printer friendly in terms of bells and whistles and those machines that did have a ton of features, the MHM's and perhaps the centurian were well over 100K for even a 10 color. Now you can get a press with all our features for under 70K and depending on the manufacturer, you might could get a nicely equiped machine with 16 colors for under 100K. That last option does come with a slight risk :).
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the fastest we've run our E-type was 1180 per hour. 'did not last very long as we ran out of shirts after about 5 min. It dry cycles at 1400 per hour, but that's without any stroking. The 1180 we did was on a youth shirt (so it was easy to load) and it was a small print, probably 4" or so.
This is not a sustainable speed by any means! The wear and tear on the operator is too much, and trying to keep the shirts coming to the press and sorting and stacking at the end of the dryer are a pretty big undertaking. If we are running at 700/hour I am a happy camper.
we have printed as many as 30 different setups in a day (long day, probably a little over 12 hours), but that is still a lot of setups for one press. We can do 10-12 jobs per day on the press without really making a big deal out of it (mix of one color, multi and usually one sim process. of note too is that we register to 5-6/1000th of an inch).
pierre
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our old gauntlet would dry cycle at around 84 dozen an hour, the fastest I ran it was 72. I just couldn't go any faster than that and I still can't...heck I am even slower now.
setups matter more than print speed, but print speed gets all the glory.
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I think the MHM's index faster than any press on the market (production models at least). The E-type I saw in Ft. Worth was so amazing to me because I was used to the very slow index on the centurian. I remember the sleeves of the shirts were flapping out straight when the press would index and they had it dry cycling at 1400 per hour. If our press was faster in the return to the home position and if it indexed twice as fast as it does now then I'm pretty sure it would approach 1500 per hour. Rick told me they had experimented with a servo motor that had twice the HP of the ones that came standard and he mentioned that it was crazy fast but he thought it was way too dangerous and he worried it would end up hurting someone. He felt it wasn't worth it to have it print that fast since most operators couldn't even sustain 1000 per hour for more than 15-20 minutes. I feel the same way as far as the safety feature goes but I also would like the option to have the press cycle faster for those few jobs that we could run at 1200-1400 per hour. The acceleration and decceleration control is very important on machines that index that quickly but all the manu's have that under control. I wish our press had options to increase or decrease index speed and acceleration but Rick didn't want people messing with some of that stuff and really screwing something up or hurting someone. I'm still going to look at a bigger servo if this one ever goes out but for right now, if I could speed up the servo return while the carousel is up, I think it would increase cycling to about 1300 per hour.
Is there any good video of the MHM's in a production run to compare index speed? I looked briefly but didn't find much.
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personally, I think anything over 850 is overkill. I would rather we sustain the 700 than get wiped out by 30 min of 1100 and then have the production suffer for the rest of the day. On a rare occasion when we do go balls to the wall for a day, our press ops are beat the next day and the production suffers. Last big order we had, I set it up for a double index, got a couple more ppl on the press and we sustained 800/hour for two days (actual production about 500+ per hour). It was easy going without anybody killing themselves. The spirits stayed pretty high and nobody was dreading the next day.
pierre
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our old gauntlet would dry cycle at around 84 dozen an hour, the fastest I ran it was 72. I just couldn't go any faster than that and I still can't...heck I am even slower now.
setups matter more than print speed, but print speed gets all the glory.
Totally agree! Like Blue Moon said, with the reg systems these things have you can set up, and be printing in no time. Job turnover is can be really high(which in this case is a good thing!).
When we ran the press at 1020pc./hr it was also kids T's, but we had 12K of them. Needless to say within the first 25min I was overjoyed. I was daydreaming of new incredible speeds, but like you guys said it is not that realistic to run like that all day, sure would be nice though!
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Not to change the subject or hijack the thread but I believe Dan is onto something...... Sometimes, and becoming to be more often, things are taken out of context by one person or the other. If you are having a rather bad day and you read something you don't like, you are more likely to react with a negative comment and things just escalate from there. I would like to suggest that maybe our moderators could offer some kind of color coding for our posts..... You know like BLUE when everything is cool, ORANGE when you are kinda upset and RED when you are being a smart a$$....... and I'm sure they could come up with a bunch more...... Like YELLOW when your panties are in a bunch............ just a suggestion.
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Not to change the subject or hijack the thread but I believe Dan is onto something...... Sometimes, and becoming to be more often, things are taken out of context by one person or the other. If you are having a rather bad day and you read something you don't like, you are more likely to react with a negative comment and things just escalate from there. I would like to suggest that maybe our moderators could offer some kind of color coding for our posts..... You know like BLUE when everything is cool, ORANGE when you are kinda upset and RED when you are being a smart a$$....... and I'm sure they could come up with a bunch more...... Like YELLOW when your panties are in a bunch............ just a suggestion.
This is not a bad idea but would make this site look like some kind of rainbow party. <<<I'm feeling sh!tty today)
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This is not a bad idea but would make this site look like some kind of rainbow party. <<<I'm feeling sh!tty today)
[/r]
That would be BROWN. :)
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it would all be OK until some hack turns it into a skittles forum!
pierre
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Pierre,
What does this mean? "we sustained 800/hour for two days (actual production about 500+ per hour)" was the press cycling @ 800 and you netted out 500 per hour because of stopping for screen maintenance etc...
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Pierre,
What does this mean? "we sustained 800/hour for two days (actual production about 500+ per hour)" was the press cycling @ 800 and you netted out 500 per hour because of stopping for screen maintenance etc...
yup! lint cleanup, misprints, gluing/wiping the platens . . . We actually stopped and had a lunch break instead of rotating, too.
pierre
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I dread doing the big jobs. I cannot stand looking at 5 carts with 500 shirts on each cart then printing for 2 hours only to still have most of the shirts still left. And when I speak of running the press at 1000 per hour I'm certainly not talking about that being the average for an entire day. We run even the small jobs as fast as we can simply because we are trying to get a lot done in a day. Running the press at 1000/hr instead of 600 an hour for a 300 piece job can be more beneficial than having a regi system. Obviously I think a regi system is more important than running the press full speed but I'm just trying to explain why I do sometimes talk about press speed and why it is a very important factor.
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well I believe @600/hr is a good speed to run at beyond that
in my experience the quality starts to diminish
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We run at 600 - 700 index speed depending on print size etc... which for us seems to not beat anyone up to bad and gives the loader enough time to get the shirts on straight, swipe of a random thread or lint ball and the puller has 2 seconds or so to eyeball the print before pulling the shirt off the pallet. My pricing system is based on a net of 450 shirts net per hour and gives us some wiggle room when you have ONE OF THOSE DAYS!!!!
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Lets get this thread back on course...
Here is some posts about autos with videos.
http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,2830.0.html (http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,2830.0.html)
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MHM presses are great machines!
I still work on them from time to time, am installing a14c/16s 3000 in a day or so.
Owned/involved with/ran 9 presses.
Ran 2-3 shifts 6 days a week
4 s-types 8c,10c /5 3000's with electronic registration
of the 2 styles, I would tend to favor the s-type, but really like both.
I have not worked on an x type to see the ins and outs, but looks like an s type on steroids.
Likes: Design and manufacture concepts of the press. Top Quality bar none.
FPU, Screen Registration pin system, Lifting print heads, Easy print/flood bar change overs, Micro Registration(great)
Ease of use, runs like a top (smooth), Simple machines, easy to perform repairs (IF you understand them). Top Quality)
Dislikes: They are all over the world, and I mean all over. Poor representation in the USA in general *( HOWEVER people love Gavin Kidd / sales manager, Rodney Head Tech. (95% of the parts are made in house) I do not like ANY one company holding
all the keys to the castle. Not good or wise business ! Limited parts in the USA. These issues could but, for whatever reason
are not delt with. Sad! Because they are great machines.
All being said most printers that I know that have MHM's, Love um and take a pro active stance with there machines. They find
ways around the "Quirks" and keep their machines running and wouldn't change as long as they keep them going. MHM have
only built a limited types of presses, focusing on design, quality of product. Support is good but not on par with their competition. Time will tell IF the new owners of the company, see things differently?
As far as the E type? I like most things about them, I would make simple improvements, but my understanding is that the
press is being discontinued(Big Mistake!). They want to focus on higher end shops.
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I know I saw the link to a vid on here somewhere, but the elliptical they are working on looks unreal.
I wonder what's going on with that? (Probably out of most peoples price range anyways... )
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oval is history. It was not made by MHM but its founder and he seems to be done making presses (At least for now).
E-type is also history. MHM redesigned their entry level press, it is called the X-type. It should be priced similarly to E, but with few extra features. Carousel is not going up and down any more, but the heads are.
pierre
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The founder took the oval MHM with when the company was recapitalized or whatever happened there and then developed the Digotex which, yes, is unreal. Also crazy expensive but probably worth every penny. It's the only press I've seen that seriously advances how we do this printing thing. The "digo" part does indeed refer to digital.
Sorry if I derailed this at all with the M&R ? regarding the choppers staying down. I wasn't meaning to stir that up but was actually curious if the new M&Rs do that. I know the Alpha and Challenger would not since they lift heads but like the sportsmans that index up/down to the screens. I do think that would steer me hard in a new auto purchase as, like others said, it's very aggravating and frustrates setup. I don't want the flood or the sq touching until it's time for them to do something.
As I said, I agree- they're all fast enough! Although certain high qty runs of private labels and small prints I find myself wishing our press could cycle at 1k/hour. One of our biggest challenges has been actually keeping an eye out for lint bunnies floating down into the top of the screen and blocking a tiny section as well as being careful with DC to try and see an issue before there are 20 unfixable shirts on the dryer belt. You can only move so fast and keep an eye on this stuff. Pulling needs to be done so that the image doesn't get distorted from pulling off the tacky platen and of course loading needs to stay very methodical too. I think it's ideal to have the press that can go crazy fast, double index, etc. for those time you really need it and then 400-600 hr is just fine by me for the rest.
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The founder took the oval MHM with when the company was recapitalized or whatever happened there and then developed the Digotex which, yes, is unreal. Also crazy expensive but probably worth every penny. It's the only press I've seen that seriously advances how we do this printing thing. The "digo" part does indeed refer to digital.
THANK YOU. Now that you and Pierre mention it, I'd heard something about that but had forgotten.
The drive/reg system IS rather original.
Crazy thing is--only info I see on the interwebs for Digotex is from MHM-GB. I'm guessing Hirsch deals with them too?
Edit: found a Hirsch blog post, and indeed they are offering their contact info on that model.
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as already mentioned, Digotex is no more. Herbert filed for bankruptcy and Digotex is closed. Hirsch brought in a sample press few years back that is sitting at Mirror image unused (something about needing part/parts).
Unless he reopens or sells the rights, that thing is history. New MHM has no rights to it from what I understand as it was developed in Herbert's house (from what I understand).
pierre
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as already mentioned, Digotex is no more. Herbert filed for bankruptcy and Digotex is closed. Hirsch brought in a sample press few years back that is sitting at Mirror image unused (something about needing part/parts).
Unless he reopens or sells the rights, that thing is history. New MHM has no rights to it from what I understand as it was developed in Herbert's house (from what I understand).
pierre
I stand corrected, aeon purchased the IP for the oval . . .
http://www.aeoon.com/aeoon-screen-printer/ (http://www.aeoon.com/aeoon-screen-printer/)
pierre
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Oh, I didn't know that, sorry to hear. I'm guessing Aeoon was the co. developing the DTG module to go with the digo? Hard to believe parts could be an issue, I've seen a vid of fixing the drive on a print arm and talked with the MHM GB guy and it sounds like they built the thing to be extremely field serviceable and simple. I guess if those simple parts are some exotic Austrian make that would be a problem but it sounded to me like you could just order enough backups with the press to last for years.
I still think this press is amazing. The drive/reg is brilliant, about time someone figured out that you don't need to calibrate across the whole diameter of a press. Just think of the savings in manufacturing alone and then all the install options you have. On top of all that the digo arm drives had regenerative braking or something like that to conserve power so they were recharging as they deaccelerated.
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as already mentioned, Digotex is no more. Herbert filed for bankruptcy and Digotex is closed. Hirsch brought in a sample press few years back that is sitting at Mirror image unused (something about needing part/parts).
Unless he reopens or sells the rights, that thing is history. New MHM has no rights to it from what I understand as it was developed in Herbert's house (from what I understand).
pierre
A year ago we were exhibiting at german tradeshow. Digotex machine was across our booth. Prints were mediocre, it didn't run super smooth like i expected it. They had that situations when at scheduled presstime everybody was nervously & aimlesly buzzing around machine trying to get it spin.....
All in all I wasn't intrigued enough to leave my workplace and "look in the future". I thought let this baby develop some more.
Angelo was important for developing of latest MHMs. I beleive they can pull it. But also their digital printer looks like in need for lots of finetuning and development. Lots of work for clever but still small team.
Boris