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screen printing => Screen Making => Topic started by: shellyky on June 13, 2013, 12:50:19 PM
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(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/1014490_10151503131163691_1580431782_o.jpg)
about 4 more that aren't pictured here...... they're ignoring us at this point. Never had this happen...always used their stuff...now new "green" glue and new ownership, and this....all from the same batch.
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Check on the compatibility of your chemicals with their glue.
I remember a time when CCI listed some as not being suitable for glued frames. May be the same with other manufacturers as well.
btw, many of mine are doing that as well, but they are from a batch six or seven years old.
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i use the same chems ive been using since the first shirt rolled off my ebay press 6+ years ago.,...only thing that has changed is their glue and their ownership at this point....im sure we'll go newmans this year sometime but its just the principal..their website literally says GUARANTEED and they are ignoring me on all levels of communication for months.
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They look to be around 25 Ncm, just as they promisse.
Am I close?
That is Pocono, they tried to screw me on used Newmans last year too. Sold me crapy old ones and newer used ones.
I threatened to dispute charges and they sent me return shipping label and refunded me.
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shelly, newman is the way to go if you want total control! Don't hesitate, get started now, you are going to love them.
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Only time that happens to me is when I use glue I know I should have thrown out six months ago.
At least they have tension--they'll never pop with crappy glue if they send them out at 10N... ;D
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Shelly. There is another probable reason this is happening. You can PM me if you like
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So, Tony, glad to see you again, but at this point, has your employer forbidden you to post anything remotely helpful or just no proprietary secrets?
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Not an individual issue I know someone else that has had the exact same thing happen to them with the new green glue Pocono screens.
I am glad my local guy still uses the Red sefar stuff, its next to impossible to remove with out a grinder. Easier to just glue over it. Great glue but man it will drop you like Mike Tyson if you took to much in your lungs at one time.
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Ok Andy I'll slip this in. First there are two basic types of glue used here.
1). Two part cyanoacryalate with spray activator. Benefit to the stretcher: fast.
Deficit to printers: sensitive to the very slightest of bows and dips; even in micron measurements. More prone to lose adhesion.
2. 2- part laquer. Deficit to stretchers: slower, glue has a pot life. Benefit to stretcher: less sensitive to dips and bows. Benefit to printers: Longer screen life. (Important to know these products are usually offered in high mesh and low mesh viscosities.)
Second, it appears that the pre-abrasion of the frame is either poor or non existent. Often skimped on due to cost this is a critical step. The optimum way to achieve the best and most uniform abrasion is bead blasting. Most frame providers do not provide this service any more because it's a price war game out there. Grinding is inferior unless you have a Grunig or Harlacher unit designed for this specific purpose.
That'll have t do for now
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That's the Tony P we remember! ;)
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SHHHHHHHHH
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Ok Andy I'll slip this in. First there are two basic types of glue used here.
1). Two part cyanoacryalate with spray activator. Benefit to the stretcher: fast.
Deficit to printers: sensitive to the very slightest of bows and dips; even in micron measurements. More prone to lose adhesion.
2. 2- part laquer. Deficit to stretchers: slower, glue has a pot life. Benefit to stretcher: less sensitive to dips and bows. Benefit to printers: Longer screen life. (Important to know these products are usually offered in high mesh and low mesh viscosities.)
Second, it appears that the pre-abrasion of the frame is either poor or non existent. Often skimped on due to cost this is a critical step. The optimum way to achieve the best and most uniform abrasion is bead blasting. Most frame providers do not provide this service any more because it's a price war game out there. Grinding is inferior unless you have a Grunig or Harlacher unit designed for this specific purpose.
That'll have t do for now
100% correct. We do bead blasting at Xenon. Along with two other proprietary steps designed and invented by Brent. Our frames are guaranteed and we stand behind ours with our reputation.
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i've heard those grunigs are sweet. I think spot color has one.
You can tell which frames have been PROPERLY prepped and which ones haven't.
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by the by, I have some 23x31's in Atlanta i could ship to you. What mesh counts are those?
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Shelly,
before you go Newman take a look at the shur-loc EZ frame product, I have both types if you have any questions pm me.
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I wish Newmans weren't 5-6 weeks out.
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Then if you're doing all the right stuff to your xenon screens then I may just be in for one more small run before we go roller frames. These 20 or so that have gone bad have really set me back on 230s. I'll keep you posted. Thanks a lot.
Ps. These have a slight circular grinding pattern on them. In all honest I can peel the mesh off like a post it note. Lol even a bad one with good glue I'd have a hard time peeling the mesh at all.
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Second, it appears that the pre-abrasion of the frame is either poor or non existent. Often skimped on due to cost this is a critical step. The optimum way to achieve the best and most uniform abrasion is bead blasting. Most frame providers do not provide this service any more because it's a price war game out there. Grinding is inferior unless you have a Grunig or Harlacher unit designed for this specific purpose.
That is the first thing I noticed. A lot of places will just take a grinding disk and call it good so they can get out the door. The "divots" or "cuts" the grinder puts in actually end up being too smooth of a finish. If there is more of a rough surface(think 60 grit sandpaper texture) the adhesive works waaaaaaayyy better. We have stretched and maintained frames here in the high 30's and lower 40's.... Also like Tony said the 2 part adhesive works better but if your business is stretching frames, it cuts down your output speed.
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Shelly,
before you go Newman take a look at the shur-loc EZ frame product, I have both types if you have any questions pm me.
Agreed, I love my Newmans but I recently got some of the Shur-loc EZ 125 frames and couldn't be happier with them, its nice to have both in the shop.
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We use newmans, but needed a quick 80 screens for a job we needed to hold screens on. Same result from pocono. Keep out of dip tank, and we seem to be avoiding the issue. Cci environ strip and enviro wash for chems. The ones that let go let go immediately. Can't speak for longer term.
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Then if you're doing all the right stuff to your xenon screens then I may just be in for one more small run before we go roller frames. These 20 or so that have gone bad have really set me back on 230s. I'll keep you posted. Thanks a lot.
Ps. These have a slight circular grinding pattern on them. In all honest I can peel the mesh off like a post it note. Lol even a bad one with good glue I'd have a hard time peeling the mesh at all.
Let me know how I can help.
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Let me know how I can help.
Gimme a break on the shipping :)!
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I'm going to toss my 2c in here.
I've got newmans, but also still have quite a few static aluminum's and wooks around. They cover anywhere from 2 to 6 years old. I'm pretty sure most are from the same local dealer, but given the overall time, I'm sure their suppliers have varied. Especially since some are thicker aluminum frames that others.
My workspace is a garage and this year, I've had about half of mine do exactly what happened to Shelly. Since mine run the gamut for time and I assume original framers, I have surmised heat (hey, its a garage even if it is insulated) and the aluminum frames do not play well together. It has ONLY happened to the aluminum as I have a number of woods that still have their mesh.
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I wish Newmans weren't 5-6 weeks out.
Dude I told you like two years ago to jump on any used ones you could find to get started. They are bullet proof. GET ON IT KID.
:D
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I second the EZ's!
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I wish Newmans weren't 5-6 weeks out.
Dude I told you like two years ago to jump on any used ones you could find to get started. They are bullet proof. GET ON IT KID.
:D
No used for me.
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this has happened to me from one supplier in the past , I was told it was my ink remover that was BS because It hadn't changed in years . Asked my other supplier and found it was the product they were using . They knew this because I wasn't the only one to switch to them because of this problem. Some screens were fine for a time but they ultimately let go.
Don't know what product my supplier is using but it is red and has never let go in years.
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Red= Lacquer
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i've heard those grunigs are sweet. I think spot color has one.
You can tell which frames have been PROPERLY prepped and which ones haven't.
We do have one, and they do rock!!!
The deep grooves it leaves has basically eliminated de-lamination issues (Unless they are due to chemistry)
(http://www.spotcolorsupply.com/images/1a0df5752779133833dadb1bf90b512f_72in_oi5n.png)
(http://www.spotcolorsupply.com/images/4c8241ffcddebb01efe186bfdbed474f_prlx_kq3m.png)
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Here's a direct paste from their site BTW
Pocono's exclusive Tri-Bond mesh adhering system
Pocono Screen Supply LLC has developed an exclusive Tri-Bond mesh adhering system that is virtually indestructable. The exclusive Tri-Bond system uses a specially designed grinding machine and chemical bath to assure a completely uncontaminated surface for applying an adhesive base coat. The frame is then stretched as described below using our staged tensioning procedure and adhered with a final top coat of adhesive. This process is used by no other screen manufacturer and we know of no other screen manufacturer who guarantees their mesh performance!
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How old are the screens? You can dispute charges on your credit card for a while back. I would think they wouldn't have a leg to stand on for a defence if their website "guarantees"(a word that has lost all meaning in the last 10 years) their product.
On the other hand, you could email them a link to this thread, you would think they would want to make good on their situation if they would want business from anyone on this forum again....
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they just replied on their FB page where i posted it.... HUGE attitude problem. Then deleted all their posts instantly...not before i screen shotted what they were telling me.
Anyways, they're taking the screens back for remeshing now apparently. which is all i wanted to begin with...just dont ignore a problem and it wont be a problem!
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How old are the screens? You can dispute charges on your credit card for a while back. I would think they wouldn't have a leg to stand on for a defence if their website "guarantees"(a word that has lost all meaning in the last 10 years) their product.
On the other hand, you could email them a link to this thread, you would think they would want to make good on their situation if they would want business from anyone on this forum again....
6 months, some let go very quickly like 1-2 uses. Some lasted until recently. Not really the point though. The "guarantee" states they will never come apart. We have 100 screens ball park all from them. Only this last "green glue" batch has let go. Some of our screens are many years old.
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no crap, my embroiderer effed up 20 polos for a customer. They called and after figuring out what happened, we are replacing them(I didn't have to figure out what happened in order to replace them, just so it doesn't happen again.)
Guess what, they thanked me for my customer service. I stand behind my work...too many in this industry don't...and that goes for manufacturers as well.
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Screen shot, of course they have now removed it and have a more professional reply. I love how the first reply is basically calling us a liar.
(http://www.graphicdisorder.com/poconoscreenfb.jpg)
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they just replied on their FB page where i posted it.... HUGE attitude problem. Then deleted all their posts instantly...not before i screen shotted what they were telling me.
Anyways, they're taking the screens back for remeshing now apparently. which is all i wanted to begin with...just dont ignore a problem and it wont be a problem!
WOW! Deleting the stuff on their facebook page(not that I understand how the hell to use facebook) but that is soooooooooooooooooooooo shady. It really speaks volumes of a company and their current state or ethics that would remove something like that. It would of been way better morally and as a PR move for them to leave it and publicly apologize and offer to do whatever they can to fix things. Sorry it had to happen to you.
Here is a place we usually buy empty screens from, I believe they have meshed ones as well, good prices too. Not sure if they are closer or a better alternative for you or not, but they have to be better than the BS Pocono just pulled!
https://www.aaframes.com/store/index.php?target=auth&mode=login_form&redirect_url=index.php%3Ftarget%3Dprofiles%26mode%3Dupdate (https://www.aaframes.com/store/index.php?target=auth&mode=login_form&redirect_url=index.php%3Ftarget%3Dprofiles%26mode%3Dupdate)
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they just replied on their FB page where i posted it.... HUGE attitude problem. Then deleted all their posts instantly...not before i screen shotted what they were telling me.
Anyways, they're taking the screens back for remeshing now apparently. which is all i wanted to begin with...just dont ignore a problem and it wont be a problem!
https://www.aaframes.com/store/index.php?target=auth&mode=login_form&redirect_url=index.php%3Ftarget%3Dprofiles%26mode%3Dupdate (https://www.aaframes.com/store/index.php?target=auth&mode=login_form&redirect_url=index.php%3Ftarget%3Dprofiles%26mode%3Dupdate)
i get my racks from AAframes.com, super great service and ridiculously fast shipping.
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I and Gerry (I believe it was him) have bought multiple 12 packs of meshed frames from AA frames via Ebay. They all held decent tension for a 110 in my opinion and never had any come unglued.
Looks like Pocono insinuated that they called you multiple times with no answer? No message left? I'm sure you guys have caller ID, maybe they were following up your email with a call as it's more personal in a situation where their product has failed again and they know you're a good customer? Is there a timeline of emails vs. missed calls? Just playing devil's advocate, but I'm with you on the phone call thing. I hate taking phone calls when an email would have not only been quicker, but a BETTER form of communication.
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as far as i know, they never called us, i check when it rings when i can, and never saw a PA # that i can remember (i lived there for 6 years, i know the area codes also)....when we called them about returning the others that were coming apart (after all, im not going to send 14 frames out in to thin air to never be returned if they didnt want to remesh them?) they were insistant on there was nothing they could do and pretty much hung up the phone..i remember brandts face when it happened, he was shocked at the conversation that transpired. Thats why we went to email, and they chose to ignore email at that point....
if they would have told me "you know what, we are under new ownership, we havent changed our website, we cant really honor our mesh performance, im sorry." i would have sucked it up and moved on to another supplier...but dont just ignore and belittle...i even contacted the old owner (who always seemed nice) and he said wow i'll see what i can do. never heard back on that so who knows.
At any rate, i sent 7 back in April and now 14 are going back...i believe that makes the whole 20 screens that i ordered.
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We use newmans, but needed a quick 80 screens for a job we needed to hold screens on. Same result from pocono. Keep out of dip tank, and we seem to be avoiding the issue. Cci environ strip and enviro wash for chems. The ones that let go let go immediately. Can't speak for longer term.
Just curious when did this happen? I'm curious if it was around the same manufacturer date...my dates on my screens are 12/26 or 12/28.
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My knock on AA screens is that they don't offer dyed mesh until 200.
I use a lot of dyed 160's.
May not bother most, but it's just the way I've done it for a long time.
My problem with most remehes is the two way shipping that only gets worse with folks on the other side of the country.
That said, I am pretty happy with the Xenon screens, and my new (semi) local supplier, Dynamic, is offering not only the service, but as an exchange program as well.
It's a little scary to try someone new, but the location and cheaper/quicker shipping makes it tempting to try.
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i agree with frog, I was leaning towards using dyed 160's but then I actually like how my 230's and 305's are dyed and my 110's and 160's are white...kinda splits it quick for me...but now it's all mixed up
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I have some AA frames a few years old and they are still in good shape, I agree with Frog I like the dyed mesh also, and that would be the only knock on AA is dye mesh starts in the 200 which I have some of those as well. I have some Xenon frames not as tight as I would like but are very usable in the 280 range. Shellyky hope you guys get everything fixed I know its a pain in the butt tossing away good money for bad product.
Darryl
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The real shame on Pocono is not admitting once that they have a conflict with their "guarantee". A simple admittance and showing a genuine concern to resolve the issue goes a really long way with customers.
All they are telling Shelly is send them back we will remesh. What does remesh actually mean? Same glue same metal profiling with a grinder? Since they have a public "Guarantee" I would have asked for an RA# and a refund and went with a new supplier. Hopefully what Shelly gets for replacements hold up but I doubt they would change any major procedure in their system for twenty screens.
Like it has been said several times here the best surface for mesh and glue is one profiled with a bead blast.
The chemical bath they state they do on the new frames is probably pickling to remove impurities but the glues are strong and would hold on any surface with a proper beaded surface.
I have a feeling they have some guy with a rag and a bottle of degreaser wiping the surface down several hundred an hour.
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Frogg and Darryl, Don't you guys have a local supplier that will stretch or re-stretch mesh for you? If you do, AA has good deals on blank frames. That is what we buy just the blank frames, but we stretch our screens in house so we have the luxury of throwing on whatever mesh we need. I know that doesn't help you, guess all I was saying is if you have a local place to stretch them for you, you may come out ahead!
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Like it has been said several times here the best surface for mesh and glue is one profiled with a bead blast.
I think a more accurate description would be a "the best surface for mesh and glue is a Textured Surface" How that is achieved is less relevant.
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Like it has been said several times here the best surface for mesh and glue is one profiled with a bead blast.
I think a more accurate description would be a "the best surface for mesh and glue is a Textured Surface" How that is achieved is less relevant.
In blasting the size of the grit is determines the "profile" of the texture. So my description is accurate.
Moving through the ranks to becoming a Pipe Fitter I spent about a year working for US Filters, I spent most of my days crawling inside massive steel and stainless tanks and blasting them with 50 grit steel shot. Some like stainless required a different profile and we would either switch the steel grit to a higher grit or use black beauty.
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Frogg and Darryl, Don't you guys have a local supplier that will stretch or re-stretch mesh for you? If you do, AA has good deals on blank frames. That is what we buy just the blank frames, but we stretch our screens in house so we have the luxury of throwing on whatever mesh we need. I know that doesn't help you, guess all I was saying is if you have a local place to stretch them for you, you may come out ahead!
Yep, I have Dynamic, about an hour away in Hayward (SF Bay Area), but they send 'em out to someone else in SoCal.
So, shipping is less and quicker than cross country, but still not an instant exchange like they offer in their Rancho Cucamunga location (ain't that a great city name?)
Since I quit keeping screens for permanent use, I have plenty of frames. Sometimes though, with some folks, the price difference between new and re-stretch is negligible,
A good re-stretch with good mesh at a good price is a great asset. Add local, and it's gold (well, maybe copper according to the roller crowd :) )
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Frogg and Darryl, Don't you guys have a local supplier that will stretch or re-stretch mesh for you? If you do, AA has good deals on blank frames. That is what we buy just the blank frames, but we stretch our screens in house so we have the luxury of throwing on whatever mesh we need. I know that doesn't help you, guess all I was saying is if you have a local place to stretch them for you, you may come out ahead!
Yep, I have Dynamic, about an hour away in Hayward (SF Bay Area), but they send 'em out to someone else in SoCal.
So, shipping is less and quicker than cross country, but still not an instant exchange like they offer in their Rancho Cucamunga location (ain't that a great city name?)
Since I quit keeping screens for permanent use, I have plenty of frames. Sometimes though, with some folks, the price difference between new and re-strtech is negligable,
A good re-stretch with good mesh at a good price is a great asset. Add local, and it's gold (well, maybe copper according to the roller crowd :) )
I am waiting for the statics to come back like neon colors, and afros! :D
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Like it has been said several times here the best surface for mesh and glue is one profiled with a bead blast.
I think a more accurate description would be a "the best surface for mesh and glue is a Textured Surface" How that is achieved is less relevant.
In blasting the size of the grit is determines the "profile" of the texture. So my description is accurate.
Moving through the ranks to becoming a Pipe Fitter I spent about a year working for US Filters, I spent most of my days crawling inside massive steel and stainless tanks and blasting them with 50 grit steel shot. Some like stainless required a different profile and we would either switch the steel grit to a higher grit or use black beauty.
Ok... I’m talking about restretching aluminum frames... Which I have done thousands of... A clean Textured surface is ideal; the method of texture application is not relevant to the finished product... ;)
I have 20 or so frames stretched by some local competition (Not Xenon, they know what they are doing). The "said stretcher" used a grinder, but only lightly scratched the surface of the aluminum. They all de-laminated just like what happened to shellyky. They didn’t properly "Texture" the surface.
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Actually, I am of the opinion that a textured and primed surface is the best for mesh and glue application--like they supposedly do at Pocono.
Seems the mechanics have failed them at some point in the process, but it works VERY well if done properly...
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Shelly,
Are those frames super light? I got some screen about a year ago that were super light and the mesh did the same thing. Did they have a sticker on the corner with www.gold-up.com (http://www.gold-up.com) on them? I am sure if they are reselling them they would take the sticker off. They are some Chinese crap that a few suppliers are selling. I bought about 15 of them because of some jobs and I lost all but 3 in the first 2 weeks. Same thing as your picture. Usually after reclaim and they sat over night.
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Actually, I am of the opinion that a textured and primed surface is the best for mesh and glue application--like they supposedly do at Pocono.
Seems the mechanics have failed them at some point in the process, but it works VERY well if done properly...
I bet it`s a glue issue. That happened to us as well. And we managed to single out the glue as the main problem, for some reason it was not suitable to withstand solvents. After we started to stretching frames in house the problem stopped as we made sure to use the right glue for the right mesh count.
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Shelly,
Are those frames super light? I got some screen about a year ago that were super light and the mesh did the same thing. Did they have a sticker on the corner with [url=http://www.gold-up.com]www.gold-up.com[/url] ([url]http://www.gold-up.com[/url]) on them? I am sure if they are reselling them they would take the sticker off. They are some Chinese crap that a few suppliers are selling. I bought about 15 of them because of some jobs and I lost all but 3 in the first 2 weeks. Same thing as your picture. Usually after reclaim and they sat over night.
they are about the same weight as the rest of my 23x31's, not too terrible light or heavy....didnt see any sticker HOWEVER the alum had sharp corners on all sides, and all my previous pocono screens had slight rounding...the remeshes arrived with BLUE glue instead of GREEN.