TSB
screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: TCT on July 20, 2013, 12:08:48 PM
-
I have been "finalizing" my dryer purchase/upgrade for like 2 months now, something always seems to come up and derail me. My goal for August is to FOCUS on this! Though I would ask people their opinions or likes/dislikes and "wish I had's" were. We will be getting another gas dryer, so please only things that relate to gas dryers. I have been told I need to make sure I talk to Winston before I go too far, but have also been told I should set aside some time for that conversation. I haven't had that luxury just yet.
I imaging there will be a flooding of "M&R, period" but while that is nice I am more intrested in what people have to say about other brands features and satisfaction.
There are many things I could take issue with on our current dryer, but one of the most annoying ones is how LOUD it is. So if you think your dryer is quite as a mouse I would like to know that.
-
Interchange would be an excellent consideration.
-
Read this:
http://forums.mrprint.com/showthread.php?4172-M-amp-R-service-team-WOW (http://forums.mrprint.com/showthread.php?4172-M-amp-R-service-team-WOW)!!
~Kitson
-
the only dryers that will be whisper quiet are electric. I am very pleased with our interchange. Winston even was impressed with some aspects of it as well.
It's a great dryer. I will say that 12' of heat isn't enough and I should have gone 16' to start, or put in some IR bump panels at the front. It's not bad, it's just limiting a little.
What I did was ask my local tech what dryer I can buy that will need the least amount of his services...and he said Interchange. It's a great dryer, I've had very few issues with it. Most of the issues have been related to me not following the maintenance sched.
-
We bought a sprint international but I have been able to see a few local interchange dryers that were recently purchased/installed. We got a 60" belt, 8'infeed, 12' heat, 8' outfeed and it will handle 2 autos running 1000/hr without any issues. I don't want to ruffle any feathers so email me if you want my honest opinion. I've seen the two best dryers on the market up close and I've also had the pleasure of speaking with Winston on a few occasions.
-
go ahead an ruffle feathers, it's what this place is for.
-
go ahead an ruffle feathers, it's what this place is for.
ditto!
pierre
-
I will also say that we recently bought a used Interchange MD-8 and are very happy with it.
PROS:
-The price was great!
-the reliability is excellent. Have not had any issues with it (it does shut off if the lint filters are not cleaned, but you will only do that once)
-the gas bill!!!! (under $200/month)
-60" belt, you can run three lines of shirts on it (with a little creativity).
-Great tech support. Even when buying used, they spent time with me on the phone making suggestions on what to check, how to do it and offered sources for cheaper parts when possible.
CONS:
-early model was not as insulated as the ones sold now (not a problem, we just wrapped it up and got it under control. Gas bill went down $100/month for $100 worth of insulation).
-it is louder than the electric dryer. There is a 5HP motor running a big fan. There is no hiding it. You can still stand next to it and have a conversation without raising your voice, but it is not whisper quiet. This could be better with newer models, but I really don't know.
-expensive install if you don't have everything in place already (air in and out, gas in). Count on needing a booster fan as it is unlikely you'll be able to vent it properly without it.
For the money, knowing what I know now, I would buy used again. It saved us $10k if not more for essentially the same piece of equipment.
pierre
-
go ahead an ruffle feathers, it's what this place is for.
ditto!
pierre
Agreed! The intention is not to ruffle any feathers, but more for a informative all sides conversation. I have been weary to even post this topic for a while because I know there are so many die hard M&R guys out there, and that is great. I understand their passion as well, when you feel you have something that is the best you want everyone to know. Sometimes it is hard to understand why everyone doesn't see it your way- afterall you are only trying to help them get the same bad ass product that has made you oh so happy.
I say bring on the uncensored opinion!
-I will never buy another anatol gas dryer. I don't feel they are easily serviceable and the product support is not there when and if needed. There are too many anatol made parts that can not be easily bought other places. There are to many "oddities" with their dryer that once they get fixed, you say "how the hell did that fix things!?" There is my opinion on anatol.
Interchange was one that I have on my "list", I have heard a lot of good things there. I was also looking at AWT based on the recommendations of 2 different independent techs, but have heard very little about them besides that.
A local rep is also pushing a Adelco..... Anyone on those?
-
I wouldn't do adelco, ask winston. My choice was between the 2, and I went interchange.
Pierre, how did you insulate the oven? was it on the bottom? Did you insulate the inside or outside?
-
Had an Adelco dual belt reciprocating dryer........I believe it is made in the UK. Terrible support. Ditto on the Anatol dryer. It is way overengineered.
-
We have an MD8, 60" belt, and 12 ft heat. My suggestion is Interchange MD8 (or if you have HIGH HIGH HIGH output, the Airjet), M&R Sprint or mini-sprint, or something from Winston. I think those are three best gas options on the market (not in any particular order).
-
I'll let those two shops I know speak on the issues they had if they choose to but if we would have had those things happen on our dryer purchase I would have been livid. Now on to my opinions of the dryers themselves and not the company: I guess the easiest way to describe it would be when I left my first visit to a shop with a new Interchange I was feeling even better at our purchase of the Sprint. I was lucky in that I got to spend a day with Rich and we went over every inch of the dryer so when I got to see the competition up close I noticed a lot more that I wouldn't have had I not gotten that experience with Rich. That might not be fair to Interchange since I didn't have a walk through with one of their guys to explain why or how they did something with their dryer, but it is what it is. The fact that you have to have an air line to the dryer for belt tracking isn't ideal, but since we all have air compressors anyway, it's not a deal breaker by any means. The md8 I saw put out more ambient heat than our dryer, good for cold climate shops, bad for our area in the brutal summers. I've kept up with our PM for our dryer and as long as we keep the filter clean, it turns on when we want it to and off just the same. It's been here for 18 months now and has yet to be down. I don't think reliability is an issue for most dryer manufacturers (well, one red company has had big issues with their dryers) because essentially they are fairly simple machines.
Hearing Brad say that 12' isn't quite enough is a little concerning to me since we also have 12' and I don't feel like we need any additional bumps or chamber length. Perhaps comparing a sprint international and an md8 is not a fair shake for interchange even though they are similar in size, obviously they are not similar in performance, and the price difference reflects that I'm sure.
Now would I buy an Interchange? I'm sure if the price was right I would. I think they build a good dryer, not a great dryer. I have very little doubt that our sprint international is overall a better dryer than a comparable interchange (airjet) but it's not overwhelmingly better. I just think the M&R has put more thought into their dryer and there were at least a dozen things that Rich pointed out to me during his visit that they do to their dryers that the competition does not. That visit was 18 months ago and I couldn't sit here and go down that list so at this point it's little more than heresay. I doubt M&R has built the perfect dryer without any flaws, ours has been relatively flawless except for one temp sensor at the dryer outfeed going bad and that was replaced by a new one being sent overnight. That sensor is not even needed but to check the shirt temps as they exit the dryer, just like having a temp gun integrated into your dryer. Since we have the donut probe and I don't believe in using that technology to check for ink cure, I don't use that feature very often so I still say the dryer is flawless from an operation standpoint.
I hope I don't sound too critical of the Interchange, the dryer itself is a good dryer that will serve a print shop very well for many years. I think their flaws are more internal and the two instances that I know about should have NEVER been an issue so that's why I take them to task. We all understand customer satisfaction, we deal with it every single day as do they, and maybe I'm being too harsh but those two issues really should have never been and I don't think there is any excuse for it. I'll leave it up to those shops as to whether or not they want to elaborate or even discuss the issues in public and it's not my place to go into detail on those problems, although I can't completely ignore them when discussing who makes the best dryer. No doubt they are a huge reason why my opinion is what it is but others may not think it's that big of a deal. My deal breakers are not the same as others, hence all the different equipment in all of our shops :).
I don't have any doubt that Winston could build a fantastic dryer that might out perform and be more reliable than any of the big boys. There are advantages and disadvantages in working with companies or entities that are smaller, one-man operations and I won't go into all that here, but I'm very aware of the good and bad since we have a big piece of equipment that comes from a small operation.
I have always tried to stay objective and not come off as a "fan boy" of any one particular manufacturer. When it comes to dryers, I have a strong opinion on who makes the best dryer. I also have a strong opinion on who makes the best auto in a specific price range and I will always try my best to be open and honest and give as fair of an opinion of the equipment as possible. And I will also try to keep the company/service as a separate entity so that they can be judged appropriately. I think you need to look at both the company and the equipment they make just like one would judge SRI by our quality and also the service we provide.
-
There is a nice Svecia gas dryer on Digit Smith. Back in the day there were three dryer names to have. Svecia. Cincinatti. Ray Paul. Still great dryers today.
-
I wouldn't do adelco, ask winston. My choice was between the 2, and I went interchange.
Pierre, how did you insulate the oven? was it on the bottom? Did you insulate the inside or outside?
outside all the way around. Will add another layer on the top and should be good to go.
-
you got 8'of heat?
I only have a 48" wide belt, so it's harder to put shirts side by side, that is why i would want the longer chamber. the outside of the top on ours is fine, it's around 90-100 while dryer is one. VERY well insulated. they didn't insulate the bottom though, which i thought was kinda cheap.
chamber length is the only thing i would change if i did it again. i think part of the problem here is shirts can have so much moisture in them they feel wet. it's usually dang humid down here, and there is so much water to remove in the dryer it's harder for it to keep up.
The blower motor on ours went out shortly after it was installed. They sent a new one in and had it replaced. They didn't build the motor.
-
you got 8'of heat?
I only have a 48" wide belt, so it's harder to put shirts side by side, that is why i would want the longer chamber. the outside of the top on ours is fine, it's around 90-100 while dryer is one. VERY well insulated. they didn't insulate the bottom though, which i thought was kinda cheap.
chamber length is the only thing i would change if i did it again. i think part of the problem here is shirts can have so much moisture in them they feel wet. it's usually dang humid down here, and there is so much water to remove in the dryer it's harder for it to keep up.
The blower motor on ours went out shortly after it was installed. They sent a new one in and had it replaced. They didn't build the motor.
was hitting 140-160 on the top of the dryer towards the corners and similar or hotter at the joints. Now that the insulation is on it, it's probably around a 100 which I'll try to reduce some more.
Again, this is A PRETTY OLD DRYER! This is a 2004 and the new one I looked was running significantly cooler. I figured the $11-$12K savings was worth the money. We cleaned the inside with a vacuum (FREE), replaced two flame rods as a precaution even though they were fine ($170) and ordered a spare fan belt, again something not needed, but I wanted to have just in case. Add $100 worth of insulation and I have $300 or so in bringing it up to date.
Alan, just as an FYI, tracking system is optional and suggested for flatstock rather than garments. There is no pneumatic system on ours and it tracks perfect!
as far as the production, we have run 500/hour on one third of the belt, so 1500 is not a problem. We run discharge at 600-700/hour with very long dwell times.
pierre
pierre
-
Only thing that would cause me pause doing what you did Pierre (I spoke with interchange about doing this when we bought ours) is that by insulating the outside all of tht heat is retained on the outside paint job which will cause issues for it. But if you're simply not concerned about potential resale value, then go for it. Oh, and I presume you didn't insulate over the thermal barriers to be able to take it apart for vaccumming et. al.
-
Only thing that would cause me pause doing what you did Pierre (I spoke with interchange about doing this when we bought ours) is that by insulating the outside all of tht heat is retained on the outside paint job which will cause issues for it. But if you're simply not concerned about potential resale value, then go for it. Oh, and I presume you didn't insulate over the thermal barriers to be able to take it apart for vaccumming et. al.
I was going to say something about that just didn't get there yet! We covered our dryer the same way with the same stuff it looks like. It did cause anything plastic(knobs for adjusting openings) to become brittle and crack. The stickers bunched up and looked crappy, and there are some parts of the paint that are a bit darker, but really it is probably in better looking condition than a lot of the dryers out there that weren't covered.... Had ours covered for like 3 years until the fire inspector made us take it off.
-
the paint was already bad in spots because it was running pretty hot. Stickers were melted already too. There are only metal parts under the insulation and everything lifts up to get access to the openings so we should be in good shape.
As far as resale, I figure I'll use it for a long time (hopefully) and even if we keep it only few years, we should be able to get most out of it. The insulation will just add to the value (at least that's what the little voices in my head tell me!). ;D
pierre
did I mention recently that our gas bill went down $100/month when we wrapped it up?
-
Just throwing this out there but if you are adding insulation to the dryer you might be better off using rigid insulation. Use the type with a foil backing facing the dryer to reflect heat. Mount it to the dryer using glue on stick pegs with spacers leaving at least a 1"air gap between the insulation and the dryer. This gap will make the insulation more efficient. Seal the joints with foil tape. It might cost a little bit more but in the long run you would be better off.
IMO either dryer will work nicely but after seeing a few new and old ones both brands I would pick Blue. The service is there, I think they run cooler and quieter.
-
Thanks all for the replies so far.
Has anyone ever had any experience or heard anything about the AWT dryers? I haven't, but those two techs I mentioned seemed to like them....
-
Our 2011 MD-8 has been great, but a little loud since we had to go with
single phase. Top notch customer service.
-
We had an older AWT dryer. It was radiant panel and gas combo and was incredibly innefficient yet cured a shirt as good as any dryer out there. I think AWT makes a better than average dryer, I just hope they insulate them better than they did in the early 90's when our original dryer was built. It was a Texair. 10' heat and 48" belt and the belt would run at 20'/minute easy and cure the thickest of ink deposits. It had no issues keeping up with the RPM at full speed but the electricity and gas bill were high. I'm positive they build them way more efficient now so I wouldn't be concerned with the issues I had with it. I don't miss it being 118 degrees at 2pm though, with the new dryer it stays whatever temp it is outside. The Sprint puts out very little heat, we can't even warm our inks up in the winter anymore with the dryer heat like we used to so I've had to build a heated ink storage for the colder nights...when it gets down to 40 :), that's cold.
-
We need a gas dryer pretty bad just due to the util costs on our electric and I looked around a bit and yep, Sprint or Sprint HO is what I would want but you def get what you pay for from M&R and it ain't cheap when buying new! Absolutely worth it but there are other things we would purchase first at that cost. Second choice would be a used interchange or sprint. Seems like an easy decision with gas dryers- there are two solid, reputable companies making them, pick whichever works best for your situation. I'll always defer to M&R b/c yes that service gives you a peace of mind that's hard to beat.
In the end though, I would take whichever of the aforementioned makes of dryer I could find with the most airflow for the money. With the amount of wb/dc going on here, airflow is key. You can't really get quiet and airflow in one dryer is my guess. Our TexAir moves what feels like a ton of air, the push on the outflow is enough to drive the exhaust all the way up our stack to the roof without a helper and it takes a fairly large squirrel cage to do that.
For our space and setup I would prefer to have a 60-72" wide belt (split belt would be even better) and a 10-12' chamber- easier to throw from two presses with the wider belt and same effective throughput as the longer chamber. I find the 48" belt cramped with both auto and manual running and cramped with just the auto with some of the faster printing jobs.
As far as insulation...didn't know you could safely wrap a dryer like that I would think that internal parts may be affected by the extra heat as well as the outer finish but maybe not. Our TexAir is 140˚F one the top and sides when running. Would not mind insulating at least the top and the parts are simple enough that they might be fine.
AWT...they are kind of weird to work with on the older machines they inherited from American but maybe no problems on new stuff?
-
That thang looks like a huge klondike bar ;D
-
We bought a used Mariah. Happy so far. Cool except where the lip vents on each end are. 2003 or so. Could use bigger vent motor, but adequate. Talk in regular voice next to it. No hot or cold spots with our probe tests. Looking at the new ones, they look a bit slicker, and seem to be a little more accessible, but how often do you replace a blower motor?
Lots of the innards are standard flame proofer stuff, so easily had on market. We bought ours used from cgs in Pennsauken, and he sees no issues with them. Traded a radicure in to get swithched over to gas. Radicure was great, but not gas.
-
how often do you replace a blower motor?
The actual motor you may be fine with, but EVERYTHING connected to the motor, not so much. You will need to replace the bearings on the blower motor set up one after another, and you will also probably come to appreciate the noise a freight train operator deals with daily.....
Seriously though, keep those grease nipples greased well!
-
That thang looks like a huge klondike bar ;D
funny, that's what we call it here!
pierre
-
Cosmo has an Interchange on DS. Dual burner 72" belt 20' heat. It is 36' long. Overkill for most but that 20K will buy one monster dryer
-
Saw that, there are also 2 AirJets for sale out of MI.... I think the 72" belt may be to wide for our set up unfortunately :(
Sure would be nice and a great deal!
-
Cosmo has an Interchange on DS. Dual burner 72" belt 20' heat. It is 36' long. Overkill for most but that 20K will buy one monster dryer
this should be able to be split into two smaller dryers if it has two heating units.
That would be two Air Jets for $10K each, that's a steal!
pierre
-
Whoa, wait a sec, on the dual belt models are you saying you can turn on one burner and run one belt where desired and save the energy costs???
I don't really understand how gas dryers work, sorry if that's a stupid question.
-
Not that I know of. I think he's talking about splitting the two burners (if there are) from front to back
and having two 10' heated sections as opposed to one 20'.
As far as I know split belts only have different belt speeds. There are many days where I wish we had one.
-
Whoa, wait a sec, on the dual belt models are you saying you can turn on one burner and run one belt where desired and save the energy costs???
I don't really understand how gas dryers work, sorry if that's a stupid question.
i believe the dual belt models have a speed controller for each belt. run plastisol on one belt, run discharge on the other with a slower belt speed.
dual burner models - not really sure - maybe if one has a super long dryer, the two burners would be able to keep the heat consistent throughout the length of the tunnel.
-
2 burners would probably just help keep the temps hotter. eventually you won't be able to heat the volume of air in the chambers efficiently. 2 burners would really help keep that heat up.
-
Talking about 2 dif things here. Dual burner allows you to run two or more autos uber fast remember its a 20' heat sec, 72" belt. Dual belt is what Zelk says......run at different speeds due to substrate and/or inks. A platisol with an LC additive needs to run through faster for instance.
And it wouldn't make much sense (though probably doable) to cut this puppy in half. Theres a lot more to it.
-
OK, got it. Just wishful thinking, a dryer that had a low/high production setting to save cost would be perfect for my shop. We are typically doing a modest amount of output with the punctuated times of very high output.
-
OK, got it. Just wishful thinking, a dryer that had a low/high production setting to save cost would be perfect for my shop. We are typically doing a modest amount of output with the punctuated times of very high output.
Zoo, here is a link to a dual belt one:
http://www.spsionline.com/used-equipment/just-added/interchange-airjet-split-belt-dryer-used (http://www.spsionline.com/used-equipment/just-added/interchange-airjet-split-belt-dryer-used)
-
Yeah I'm familiar, just was intrigued by the idea of having 2 burners to flip on/off as capacity was required.
I've found that with enough hot, forced air, you can throw both plastisol and DC/WB on one belt and the both cure correctly but it would def be nice to be able to put a little zip on the plasti side with that dual belt setup. Not to mention poly's.
-
We run discharge and plastisol side by side all the time. The plastisol just gets a really good cure!
Where a split belt comes in handy is when we're printing discharge on one press and fleece or
some sort of poly on the other. We ave to stop and wait till one is done.
-
Side note: Modular dryers are initially engineered to expand capacity due to volume rather than disassembled into separate machines. To do so would require 2 new belts (although the existing one could be modified), separate temp/speed/diagnostic panel, additional end bearing, not to mention infeed outfeed supports among other issues. Usually not costworthy.
-
We recently purchased a new AirJet 76 inch wide belt 12 feet of heat with a IR Bump/8 feet in and out. The air jet has built in hoods that retain 90% of the heat at the ends of the heat sections and it is a very cool running dryer. I have never seen a newer sprint but I would love to know what areas the M&R is better built and why. We paid roughly $24,000 and some change what would a sprint cost with the same specs. We had an alarm code the 3rd day running and they sent there tech out the next day to replace the burner control, all I expected was for them to send me parts to replace myself but i wasn't going to complain.
-
An equivalent Sprint would cost a lot more than that. 24k sounds almost spooky low for a dryer that size.
-
We recently purchased a new AirJet 76 inch wide belt 12 feet of heat with a IR Bump/8 feet in and out. The air jet has built in hoods that retain 90% of the heat at the ends of the heat sections and it is a very cool running dryer. I have never seen a newer sprint but I would love to know what areas the M&R is better built and why. We paid roughly $24,000 and some change what would a sprint cost with the same specs. We had an alarm code the 3rd day running and they sent there tech out the next day to replace the burner control, all I expected was for them to send me parts to replace myself but i wasn't going to complain.
we were getting quotes for MD-8 with 60" belt and 8' of heat without the IR bump and only 4' in/out for the same amount!
AirJet with similar specs was at least $10K more.
pierre
-
An equivalent Sprint would cost a lot more than that. 24k sounds almost spooky low for a dryer that size.
We are roughly 10% more but in my opinion well worth it!!
-
An equivalent Sprint would cost a lot more than that. 24k sounds almost spooky low for a dryer that size.
We are roughly 10% more but in my opinion well worth it!!
Hey Rich,
is that 10% more than $24K or 10% more than going rate for the Air Jet?
pierre
-
Our Sprint 2000 with 8 ft of heat can be purchased for $27,000 and that is with a money back guarantee. It is with out a doubt the best dryer out there for conserving energy, cool skin temperature, uniform temp across the belt, and fastest cure.
-
I have a brand new sprint but with 12 ft heat and its the best. no doubt about it.
-
We recently purchased a new AirJet 76 inch wide belt 12 feet of heat with a IR Bump/8 feet in and out. The air jet has built in hoods that retain 90% of the heat at the ends of the heat sections and it is a very cool running dryer. I have never seen a newer sprint but I would love to know what areas the M&R is better built and why. We paid roughly $24,000 and some change what would a sprint cost with the same specs. We had an alarm code the 3rd day running and they sent there tech out the next day to replace the burner control, all I expected was for them to send me parts to replace myself but i wasn't going to complain.
we were getting quotes for MD-8 with 60" belt and 8' of heat without the IR bump and only 4' in/out for the same amount!
AirJet with similar specs was at least $10K more.
pierre
Same here. Seems odd.
-
Our Sprint 2000 with 8 ft of heat can be purchased for $27,000 and that is with a money back guarantee. It is with out a doubt the best dryer out there for conserving energy, cool skin temperature, uniform temp across the belt, and fastest cure.
What's the difference in the different Sprint models from your website? I emailed my local rep a few days ago but haven't heard anything back yet.
-
M&R makes many models and sizes of Sprints. I would be more than happy to discuss the models and benefits if you would like . e mail me a phone number and I will call you on Monday.
-
We were quoted 43,325 for a 60" HO 8-12-8 with similar venting at the ends to the aforementioned AirJet. Maybe I need to get more quotes. It just seemed like a lot compared to what was posted for the interchange. Worth it I'm sure! Just out of our budget.
-
We were quoted 43,325 for a 60" HO 8-12-8 with similar venting at the ends to the aforementioned AirJet. Maybe I need to get more quotes. It just seemed like a lot compared to what was posted for the interchange. Worth it I'm sure! Just out of our budget.
your quote is for our high output version. Very few people need that much dryer but I don't know your circumstance. Don't compare a H.O. To anything from Interchange. Bad comparison at best because they are two complete items. Kind of like a Cessna being compared to a twin turbo Beachcraft.
-
Ah, makes perfect sense. I'll have a look at the regular models instead.
-
M&R makes many models and sizes of Sprints. I would be more than happy to discuss the models and benefits if you would like . e mail me a phone number and I will call you on Monday.
Make the time to have the conversation with Rich on dryers, he has incredible listening and analytic skills as well a memory like a CIA computer. Describe your average jobs and those jobs you foresee doing in your production flow in the next 3-5 years.
Have a scale drawing of you shop location you can e-mail him along with electric specs and he can recommend the best tool for your situation so you get the best ROI possible. Don't be surprised if he suggests options you may not have thought of and they may not be painted blue!
Rich will absolutely give you the best info & with his knowledge base and resources -- just do it!
~Kitson