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screen printing => Screen Making => Topic started by: Printficient on August 07, 2013, 06:12:06 PM
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Chris I was informed by Brent that we can indeed do what we discussed. Let me know if you want to proceed. He did recommend wood.
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Chris I was informed by Brent that we can indeed do what we discussed. Let me know if you want to proceed. He did recommend wood.
I hope it wasn't anything to do with thin thread mesh :)
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Chris I was informed by Brent that we can indeed do what we discussed. Let me know if you want to proceed. He did recommend wood.
I hope it wasn't anything to do with thin thread mesh :)
Actually forgot to mention that to Brent :o His main concern is the amount of "buy in" we would have to do. I am trying to impress on him the desire for us to do this. Not to hijack the thread, but how many are interested in Xenon supplying "S" thread mesh?
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If its as good as murikami and cheaper then I'm interested... That is ALL we print with in my shop.
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I hope you guys that have never used thin thread or gave it a half-assed try will take this in a light hearted way, but get your head out of your anuses and get some thin thread mesh and use it the way it's supposed to be used and never look back. Especially those manual shops still using standard mesh counts...I'll remove your head for you and send you some mesh to stretch up a screen and see for yourself. Once a month I put an image on a standard mesh and a thin thread mesh and I put it on the manual and I show people who have never printed or have very little experience the difference between the two screens. I've never had one person say they thought the standard mesh count was even close to as good as the thin thread version. I've had numerous people who have never ran a squeegee across a stencil in their lives get a one hit white on their first print through a thin thread mesh. Thin thread gives you more opacity a thinner ink deposit and allows your press to print at maximum speeds while standard mesh counts fall far behind their thin thread counterparts and the competition isn't even close. There are more benefits than those I just mentioned but there is nobody reading this that wouldn't want those three that I mentioned and over the course of several thousand imprints (which you'll certainly get out of a thin thread screen) the cost is virtually the same. You print with less pressure, you use one stroke to get the job done, less wear and tear on your body and press, eliminate pallet deflection, use less pallet adhesive, use less pallet tape, use less ink, use less emulsion, good lord that's a ton of advantages. And the only drawback I know of is durability. And if you handle the screens correctly they will last forever just like standard thread. They don't spontaneously combust like some people around here think, they bust from mishandling them and that's it.
I know thin thread mesh has been around a long time which makes it even that much more insane that 99% of screen printing shops don't use thin thread mesh and about 97% of them have never heard of it. And that's on the suppliers mostly, they make more money selling standard counts, make more money selling more emulsion and more ink so unless the customer starts demanding the product that actually works for what we are trying to print on, nothing will change. And I challenge Xenon to be second in line to push textile printers to use thin thread mesh, since y'all are the leader in mesh sales you could have the most positive impact on the industry and help a lot of shops out. Who knows, you might actually sell more mesh and make a lot more money doing the right thing.
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yeap. i only use thin thread now.
for process work i use 305/31 with 2 to 5% hd-clear on a manual press.
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this was split from a different thread. . .
pierre
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embarrassed to say, I have not tried the thin mesh yet, and from that informative post by Alan, I want to try it. Sonny, Xenon mesh has been really good to us. So far, out of the last batch of stretched Newmans, the Xenon mesh has out lasted the Saati mesh we had been using and was a fraction of the cost. How do the double beveled squeegees work with the thin mesh. Sonny sent me two double beveled squeegees and we use them for anything with tiny details, or especially discharge ub, and nice halftone white discharge. Next month I need to order a few more of those for sure, but really would like to try the thin mesh. Email me if you guys pick it up Sonny!
Mike
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Alan- what are you guys stretching your S-mesh to? We always seem to have issues and it rips once we get to maybe the mid 20's...
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that's a good question. I'm happy with holding 30-40 newtons, but is this stuff too brittle for even that, I guess if it's that thin, the newtons might not be an issue, theoretically speaking.
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that's a good question. I'm happy with holding 30-40 newtons, but is this stuff too brittle for even that, I guess if it's that thin, the newtons might not be an issue, theoretically speaking.
The answer to the question is to tighten until the opening is perfectly square. To tight and you have a distorted opening. To loose and you have a closed opening. 20 - 25 ncm is perfectly acceptable.
It should also be noted that the tighter the screen requires more control of the other variables.
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Alan- what are you guys stretching your S-mesh to? We always seem to have issues and it rips once we get to maybe the mid 20's...
I know I wasn't asked, and I knew right away who posted that LOOOOONNNG thread on s mesh without even reading the name :-), but we run all S mesh and we run them all right around 28-33 newtons with the exception of 310 - that's more like 19-24 newtons.
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We have been running it for a long time now (years). Glad you saw the light Alan. Took long enough. The days of 83 mesh and a stencil as thick as the roadway are over for you....... ;D
Seriously though for you manual guys you need to get on the band wagon. If you want to take your printing to a new level of quality it is the only way to go.
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Alan- what are you guys stretching your S-mesh to? We always seem to have issues and it rips once we get to maybe the mid 20's...
I know I wasn't asked, and I knew right away who posted that LOOOOONNNG thread on s mesh without even reading the name :-), but we run all S mesh and we run them all right around 28-33 newtons with the exception of 310 - that's more like 19-24 newtons.
Stupid question here, I assume I already know the answer, but are you stretching yours on roller frames?
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wish I knew about S Mesh 2 weeks ago. I ran 110 black shirts, with underbase (3 color front - 4 color back) and the print looks good but has the a little bit of the bullet proof feel going on with it. I used 156's for the underbase white...200's for the highlight white and golden yellow and a 230 for the scarlet red....The scarlet red is what killed me...I had to do multiple hits (2 sometimes 3) of the red to cover the white properly. I should have used a lower mesh for the red but it was the only screen I had left to use.
For now on any frame I buy (i buy the aluminum 23 x 31's) I will buy with S Mesh on it.
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Ok..so I read this thread and you all talk about getting new mesh and to get our heads out of our asses...but when I tell you get a DTS I get all kinds of "why you cannot"
hahahah booomm right back at you!
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I take all of our mesh up to whatever the spec sheet says is the maximum for that mesh count. For example the 150/48 is recommended at 25-28 newtons so that's where I stop. I've gotten the 150 up to about 33-34 but it's too delicate and will rupture. The beauty of the thin thread is the percentage mesh opening and it's large even when not at it's highest tension level.
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Ok..so I read this thread and you all talk about getting new mesh and to get our heads out of our asses...but when I tell you get a DTS I get all kinds of "why you cannot"
hahahah booomm right back at you!
$30 for a few yards of S thread or $48K for a CTS...the CTS will have to wait a few months or maybe even next year. Trust me, I'm ready for CTS but I don't cut the checks around here. The busier we get, the more money we spend and the less people want to pay us it seems.
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a few yards? we have over 200 23x31...that is a lot more than a few yards..
plus what will also help you on the bottom line? yeah a dts...we are setting up 3-7 color jobs and never touching micros...just printing. that you CANNOT do by lining up by eye!
sam
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wish I knew about S Mesh 2 weeks ago. I ran 110 black shirts, with underbase (3 color front - 4 color back) and the print looks good but has the a little bit of the bullet proof feel going on with it. I used 156's for the underbase white...200's for the highlight white and golden yellow and a 230 for the scarlet red....The scarlet red is what killed me...I had to do multiple hits (2 sometimes 3) of the red to cover the white properly. I should have used a lower mesh for the red but it was the only screen I had left to use.
For now on any frame I buy (i buy the aluminum 23 x 31's) I will buy with S Mesh on it.
We use thin thread counts as low as 83/71 and it will put down some ink, but it's way less than double stroking a 110/80 or even a 156/64. I think many shops are so scared of a low mesh count yet they are counter productive because they are double stroking 156's or 195's. Not to mention Mark double stroking his red ink could have been totally elimated by putting his top colors on something with a more open mesh that covers the UB with one stroke. We have 100/55's, 123/55, 135/48, 150/48, 180/48, 225/40 and my new favorite I got in on Tuesday, a 90/71 that I'll have on press by the end of the day to test for a one hit white. I don't think these mesh counts are only good for one hit whites but they are part of the reason why we never double stroke anything and rarely use revolver mode. a few yards? we have over 200 23x31...that is a lot more than a few yards..
plus what will also help you on the bottom line? yeah a dts...we are setting up 3-7 color jobs and never touching micros...just printing. that you CANNOT do by lining up by eye!
sam
True, but we don't have to touch micros on 3-7 color jobs very often because of our regi system. You don't have to convince me that CTS is what we need. I need to convince one other person that dropping another 40-50K for something she's never seen is what we need to do for the shop. We haven't reached maximum capacity over here so the need to increase our capability isn't a must at this point. That's what usually drives us to buy new equipment and I do think we'd be considerably more profitable over here, our ROI is still not close to a year no matter how I pencil whip the spreadsheets.
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We also have 200+ screens but they don't all need mesh and when you look at the ROI on mesh, it's the most profitable thing your shop will ever buy and CTS ain't even close. You can get a million prints from one 23x31 piece of mesh that cost you $7. What else in this industry will get you that type of return? Nada. As good as CTS is for the industry, it's still not as important as the mesh we use. The mesh is our engine to our car, the CTS is our supercharger for that engine.
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something you will never understand til you see it and use it...but I bet when you get it you will see it in 12 months or less
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I have been looking for a long time for s-thread static frames and come up empty. I even emailed Murakami and got no response. I asked a rep from our supplier about them and see said they are the best thing I could do printing manually but they dont sell em.
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I have been looking for a long time for s-thread static frames and come up empty. I even emailed Murakami and got no response. I asked a rep from our supplier about them and see said they are the best thing I could do printing manually but they dont sell em.
River City Graphic's supply in Austin will put S mesh on a aluminum frame...you have to request it. I have not done it yet BUT I did speak to them on the phone and they told me point blank if you request S mesh they will put it on the frame. They sell the s mesh so they have it in stock.
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Alan- what are you guys stretching your S-mesh to? We always seem to have issues and it rips once we get to maybe the mid 20's...
I know I wasn't asked, and I knew right away who posted that LOOOOONNNG thread on s mesh without even reading the name :-), but we run all S mesh and we run them all right around 28-33 newtons with the exception of 310 - that's more like 19-24 newtons.
Stupid question here, I assume I already know the answer, but are you stretching yours on roller frames?
Yes we are using Newman mzx's. In fact, sold our m3's when we went all s mesh. They were excessive for our needs since you don't do 50 newtons on s mesh.
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Creative Screen Technologies (http://www.creativescreentech.com/) will stretch provided mesh for you.
Interesting frame design as well, I had a few and no qualms.
Which reminds me of the guy around the corner that my buddy worked for stretching screens made out of
bent EMT conduit. They seemed to sell a lot of them, and I personally saw a Newton meter at 30+. As to
whether they held that is beyond me.
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screens made out of
bent EMT conduit.
That I would like to see.
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I guess, a hundred yards of S thread=$1500
Direct to screen printer=$48,000
Comparing them as anything resembling equivalent opportunity losses... priceless.
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Ok..so I read this thread and you all talk about getting new mesh and to get our heads out of our asses...but when I tell you get a DTS I get all kinds of "why you cannot"
hahahah booomm right back at you!
You count scotch tape but don't see the cost benefits to less ink, stroke after stroke? Or less stroke, strokes equal time. Then what about revolver or pfp? What cost savings on that flash unit if you don't have to pfp, plus a second screen (if not revolver).
I get your point but aren't you really making Alan's point and basically saying do as I say not as I do?
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'been using S mesh for a while now, not exclusively though . . .
to throw a wrench into the discussion, how many here tried the LX mesh? Even bigger opening and no knuckles!
pierre
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Ok..so I read this thread and you all talk about getting new mesh and to get our heads out of our asses...but when I tell you get a DTS I get all kinds of "why you cannot"
hahahah booomm right back at you!
Thats funny Sam I just finished a meeting with our Saati rep (who makes these) and they whole heartedly agreed that they are not for us. (uh oh now Pierre will have to split this thread again!)
And because we're almost all WB on old presses S mesh and rollers won't cut it (or don't deliver a ROI)either. Everyones different. For us the dolars for DTS would be best spent towards a new press.
Not a dig on anyone here so please no rants. :D
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Tony, just an FYI, the S/thin thread mesh absolutely excels at WB printing. It made shifting to WB really easy for me to implement. The mesh will hold up on rollers and old presses. I was concerned about this too at first but we have not seen breakage from squeegee pressure running 90 through 225 S mesh on the Gauntlet S and, as you know, there is a ton of constant blade pressure depressing the mesh when running WB on that press. Your biggest implementation issue might be in handling- i.e., no laying blades and floods on the mesh, no tossing screens around, etc. Get a few yards of 150/48 and stretch it up on your statics, it's worth a looky loo. It also lets you use bare minimum pressure when printing plasti on the older M&R presses, mitigating the extreme platen deflection and flex of the print head.
Alan, you're going to dig that 90/71, the open area is spooky. PFP plastisol on that count generates a mini-HD look. We primarily uses ours for metallics and pearlescents, both plasti and WB.
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Have some samp yds coming but rep said probably not worth it for us. Also a Photo P for discharge that I have always had issue with but it is new so why not try it. Makes sense that the S mesh mesh would help those who are new to WB though.
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You guys stretch/glue in house right? Just take yer time with the S thread, follow murakami's recommendations and don't go too high. I think stretching + shop handling are the deal killers for many with thin threads but it's easy to overcome both of these.
Seriously, just play around with a properly stretched 150/48. If we had to, we could print 90% of all our jobs with that one mesh, coated in various ways. The versatility of each count is another advantage. I have our entire mesh selection down to:
90 - 110 - 135 - 150 - 180 -225 -330 with the 90, 110 and 135 only used for speciality inks or where we need mega ink transfer, it's mostly all 150, 180 and 225.
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Have some samp yds coming but rep said probably not worth it for us. Also a Photo P for discharge that I have always had issue with but it is new so why not try it. Makes sense that the S mesh mesh would help those who are new to WB though.
For what it is worth I run all our WB on S mesh on an older than dirt Challenger. Works better for because of having to use less pressure on the print stroke.
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Interesting
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Just stretched some shurlocs 10 with 150/48 6 with 180/48 and 3 with 80/55. I don't imagine I'll use 80/55 much but for those big block letters with white ink should be pretty much a 1 hitter. By the way this might be for another thread, but I really like the shurloc 125 frames. They hold their shape, don't warp, they are lighter/thinner and still heavy enough that they sink in the dip tank without having to use something to hold them down.
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I don't think Sam was "trying" to get into an argument with me but rather having a friendly jab? Perhaps I read into it wrong and didn't take his comments as an invitation to get into the CTS argument but I could be wrong. This thread is more about thin thread and I know I get caught up in the importance of mesh but it cannot be argued that it's not the most important "tool" that we use. Even though CTS is the next best thing, it pales in comparison and will never be as important to the process as the super cheap, underappreciated, often abused mesh.
I know where we fall in the CTS versus film discussion and our shop is a lot closer to Tony's in that we are a lot more efficient with film than the average shop and we have a regi system that is very fast and accurate. I know we will see major improvements with CTS in exposure time and we will eliminate film and inkjet ink costs, and I do believe we will see faster press setups but it will not be to the degree that straight triloc users have seen and surely not close to non regi system shops when they made the move to CTS. I know there are hidden savings here and there and those will be nice to see but they will not have the impact that the other improvements that I mentioned will have or they'd be all over the marketing sheets and websites by now and no longer "hidden".
Here is what I know for sure: A "first time" multi-colored job will be done faster at our shop from start to finish with a CTS machine and we will see consumable savings of about 4-5K a year. Repeat jobs will likely be done in about the same time overall with a slight edge to the CTS but likely single digit % faster. The fact that is overlooked is our regi system works almost as good as the MHM and is it's closest equivalent that I have to explain how our system works. The MHM is faster since you don't have to load a pallet jig on and off but as far as the job lining up on press that's what we have. Now maybe those MHM guys will understand our thoughts on CTS. I have a feeling that although there are tons of positive reviews on the regular triloc, it isn't as accurate as it could be or should be. I know that it will never be agreed with but I think the carrier sheet system is flawed and the master frame on the exposure unit paired with the carrier sheets causes issues that can't be fixed in many cases. The film shifts and that's all there is to it. I know there are things that can be done to help out the film shift on the exposure, but I do believe that there are some systems that have flaws that will never go away. Our film is taped directly to the emulsion and our vacuum blanket comes down tight and the film doesn't move at all. I can say all this because I used the triloc as it was supposed to be used for about a week and we had ok results but it's nothing compared to what we see now. I had a guy at the workshop this weekend that has a diamondback and the triloc and he doesn't use it because it doesn't work. His setup has been inspected and is installed correctly but the fact is that he can't use it and chooses to set up jobs manually. He is going to convert his triloc to the modified FPU that we use. I've showed many people how ours works and I've done setups for people wanting to see how accurate it is and everyone is amazed, especially those who have or used a triloc.
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Alan
I would venture to bet your "buddy" did not go to M&R to get training on his machine or tools for his machine correct? I bet if he did he would be using tri-loc on every job making more and more money per job.
but then again that is just me and my shop...
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Ok shift to another aspect. S mesh, or this"thin" mesh, if the diameter of the actual thread is way less than standard mesh, and is it a weave difference too? Would this also lower exposure times? If so, S-mesh, being thinner, allowing light to penetrate faster and better, mixed with less emulsion on the mesh, should lower exposure times, now marry that with a CTS and you have some more efficiency right? We are a small shop and most though I was nuts to get a CTS, man, I would NEVER, go back to the old way of doing things. I have to say, you would never understand it until you had one in your shop. It's too bad there weren't demo models out there that manu's could lease on a say 1-3 month basis to really show a shop how much of and amazing addition to their process a CTS will be. At any rate, I'd love to try some of this stuff. What is the recommended brand to get, I'd support Sonny and order some through him with Xenon but if they don't have it yet, I'd like to get enough for a half dozen or so frames and give a try, especially under basing and W/B prints. Is the thin mesh higher cost than standard? Just curious on more intimate details, I have asked certain suppliers and most don't even know what the hell it is and just push what ever they have on the rack.
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*No longer needed*
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Alan
I would venture to bet your "buddy" did not go to M&R to get training on his machine or tools for his machine correct? I bet if he did he would be using tri-loc on every job making more and more money per job.
but then again that is just me and my shop...
You are right, my "buddy" didn't go to M&R and get training, they went to his shop, set up his press and triloc and I'll let you guess why that tech is no longer with them. Let me say this, I've spent some time with this "buddy" of mine and I can tell you that the reason his triloc doesn't work isn't because he didn't go to M&R, or because he's not a business guru, or because he's not intelligent enough to use the registration system, it's because it is not perfect.
Did everyone here with a triloc system go to M&R so they could use it properly? I won't put you in a bad spot and ask you if it works as great as some might have you believe. And don't let my comments have you believe I don't think it works at all, that's not true, it CAN work great a lot of the time.
Sammy, I have no doubt in my mind that your triloc worked well, but the fact that you think you have to go to M&R and get training on how to use it properly is ridiculous. I'm not trying to hurt anyone's feelings about it I'm just being honest and maybe I'm saying things that others know but might not want to say publicly. Remember I said that I used the system, and as much as I love M&R and what they do, the system is not as good as it could be. There are as many members on this forum that have a triloc and theirs works perfectly as there are members that have one that performs great about half of the time. I know this because I've used it and I have spoken to shops who ask me why theirs doesn't work. Have I mentioned that I've used the triloc yet?
I wonder if the triloc worked so well, why is it when triloc-user shops go CTS they have these enormous boosts in setup times and therefore such fast ROI? If the triloc worked as well as you claim shouldn't it virtually be the same as a job setup via CTS? What am I missing? Don't answer that last question, I already know the answer.
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Creative Screen Technologies ([url]http://www.creativescreentech.com/[/url]) will stretch provided mesh for you.
Interesting frame design as well, I had a few and no qualms.
Their site presently has no pictures.
Are these the one piece bent aluminums with round corners?
Tubelite (also in San Leandro back then) sold'em.
Their re-stretch prices are crazy high.
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ahhh, what a read....
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alan
why do I go to M&R when I buy something...because I know that I don't know everything. I go because if I can learn one thing to make me more money it is worth it. as for the people who it doesn't work for well thee are many many reason it might not work. what screens are they using? who is lining up their films, who is printing the films, how are the films being printed? I could go on and on...but remember tri-loc is a system. Going DTS takes out some of the human element for lining up carrier sheets...but yes it works great and has since day one for us!
also the techs that set up presses are just that, they set them up and make sure they work...but you do not learn from the tech you learn from the team at M&R about your press, dryer, dts or whatever it is you buy.
But then again I worry about everything in our shop not just certain areas so I think I might just look at it as an investment vs. buying or doing something.
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(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRNMMZ3NNFmKr9LRX30A0EgadoKljvpZgPGK5FrOZqYYlpHkRR5)
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Nothing better than a cat pic to put this one out of it's misery. What a day we had here, I feel bad I didn't get to play on here much but I think that it was for the best that I had time away.
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Nothing better than a cat pic to put this one out of it's misery. What a day we had here, I feel bad I didn't get to play on here much but I think that it was for the best that I had time away.
Damn, if only yesterday was the busy day that kept you away :( LOL!