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screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: screenprintguy on August 23, 2013, 09:34:06 AM
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Hey Peirre, hope all is well with you guys! Is it true that on the MHM, you "never" have to level your pallets, that the nature of those press's design lends to perfectly, permanent level pallets? Or is there still an adjustment to be made. I'm just curious as I've had several off the board discussions with folks about constant pallet leveling, and print head leveling. Thanks in advance for your input.
Mike
PS any of the other guys with extensive experience on the MHM's, please weigh in as well.
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The press would need to be manufactured with such precision from the ground all the way up. Seems almost impossible to me hence all the other manufacturers having adjustments on the pallets for a reason. Maybe MHM has a way of paralleling them during the manufacturing process but it would have to be a very solid piece to not move at all after millions of prints. I'd love to know how or if that's the case with MHM machines. Pallets get out of whack, but more often when you use the pallets to free wheel the carousel around and when you print with lots of pressure (waterbased and DC shops).
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It's pretty much true. I can't remember where I saw the entire carousel being machined with the pallets on. Either way you can dance on those puppies with confidence
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I would think it has something to do with the single pivoting anchor on the squeegee. I remember a thread about using a half squeegee for pockets, and how it wasn't possible on an MHM.
Assuming your head linear is on, that's that, right?
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Like I said, I've had several chats about it with folks, and I can say, that MHM, and Gavin from Hirsch use this as one of their hot selling points. Also recently watched a vid sent over by Ryan at Ryonet, claiming the exact same selling point for the Roque presses. I figured asking folks who have actually ran 100's of thousands of prints over the years. Pallet leveling, and head re-levling is a pain in the ass, but I just can't seem to wrap my head around how any machine over time doesn't require it. If it's used as a "main" selling point, you would figure it would be valid. I'm interested to see how this thread goes, as I'm sure there are others who have been told this, or heard this, read it, and want to see how legit "in the field" the claim is.
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for the most part, they don't really need to be messed with. What causes the issues is crashing the press (don't ask!).
We relevel everything about once a year and the heads that have not been abused are usually within 15-20/1000th of an inch. After going around (which only takes about an hour for all the heads and is pretty easy to do) everything is within 5/1000th. That means left to right, front to back level of the platens and distance from the printhead both front and back.
pierre
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for the most part, they don't really need to be messed with. What causes the issues is crashing the press (don't ask!).
We relevel everything about once a year and the heads that have not been abused are usually within 15-20/1000th of an inch. After going around (which only takes about an hour for all the heads and is pretty easy to do) everything is within 5/1000th. That means left to right, front to back level of the platens and distance from the printhead both front and back.
pierre
Is it a four point leveling system or 3, or something different entirely?
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I've moved our two S-Types three times each, and I am constantly amazed that when it's re-assemble time,
we're almost always dead on parallel. Don't ask me how it works, I don't know, it just does.
There's two points for the screen hangers, two bolts each end of the screen, but stacked horizontally
if that makes sense. The pallets have little riser bars under them if you need to raise one side front or
back.
We do re-level once a year or so. And the floating squeegee chingadero makes it tougher then on basically
any other press. You can't float a floodbar over the pallet to see where you're at.
We use a metal frame welded with the MHM pins and 4 dial indicators towards the corners. 4 bar clamps on the corners
of the holders to the head extrusions make for precise adjustment and holding position while tightening
the hangers. Clear as mud?
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it's a four point system for the platens, then there are two points for the quick adjustment of the printhead to platten distance (front and back. these can be done in about 5 min each with an adjustment bar that comes with the press).
Essentially, if the platens are level, you just loosen the off contact adjustment points on the front and back of the platen, slide in the bar and lock it in place with the bar used as stop. This levels the screen holders to the platens.
so here are the adjustment points from bottom to top.
1. a support rod that has a threaded counter screws to move the platen up and down
2. 4 points on the platen support arm to fine tune the height and level of the platen (front/back/left/right)
3. tilt adjustment for the print arm (to make it level with the platen)
4. screen holders adjustment (located on the off contact knobs) to move them up and down (independently) to make sure the screen is parallel to the platen (this works even if the head is not parallel with the platen, it's just that the squeegee/floodbar assembly would be getting closer or going further away from the print as it travels.
when we tune the press, we get all of this to be within 5/1000th of an inch. It could be done to a 1/1000th if I felt like playing with it, but I just don't think that's necessary.
pierre
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I shoot for 5/1000 as well. Like you said, I could get it tighter but at what cost in time. I'm not sure I totally follow how it's done but that's ok.
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I shoot for 5/1000 as well. Like you said, I could get it tighter but at what cost in time. I'm not sure I totally follow how it's done but that's ok.
I'll try to find some time to take pictures . . .
pierre
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So basically, and MHM sales person telling someone, "if you buy our press, you never have to worry about re-leveling your pallets as they never need to be leveled", is complete BS. I'm sure they might not need it as much as others, but ya gotta figure anything with that much movement and wear has to be re-adjusted here and there at times. I remember when we bought our machine, over the phone, at our shop a few times, and at a trade show, the MHM guys were adamant on how their machines NEVER, need pallet leveling, that the machines are built perfectly level at the factor. I want to almost say there is a video or two floating around out there where someone at the factory says the same thing. Not trying to stir anything up, just have it out there to a couple people I know that are very serious about buying new machines who feel they don't need to speak with shop owners running the presses, that one of their main reasons for buying an MHM is never having to re-level pallets, or parallel the press over time. Misinformation costs shops tons later on or causes them to go under. I know MHM is a good choice for anyone as they are pretty awesome machines, the attraction to me has always been the flip up print heads, and full control at each head, but I'm also a huge fan of the newer machines M&R is putting out ie: the C3, and for more sophisticated machines like up in this realm the service. Not trying to sway my buddy, just let him see for himself how things work in the real day today shop environment. Thanks to all you guys putting your honest input, if there is anything else good, or bad, please continue to add as it's informative for anyone out there trying to make decisions.
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Take a look at the 3000 and 4000 machines. Each pallet arm is like a foot wide and deep.
Doubt those would ever need leveling.
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I know this is off the MHM subject, but here again, someone saying a certain press never needs pallet leveling, but is that true in the real world? would be cool if it is true, but is it. sRoque Screen Printing Press FAQ - Lock and Roq Garment Platen System (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gpua3pVl7U#ws)
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So basically, and MHM sales person telling someone, "if you buy our press, you never have to worry about re-leveling your pallets as they never need to be leveled", is complete BS. I'm sure they might not need it as much as others, but ya gotta figure anything with that much movement and wear has to be re-adjusted here and there at times. I remember when we bought our machine, over the phone, at our shop a few times, and at a trade show, the MHM guys were adamant on how their machines NEVER, need pallet leveling, that the machines are built perfectly level at the factor. I want to almost say there is a video or two floating around out there where someone at the factory says the same thing. Not trying to stir anything up, just have it out there to a couple people I know that are very serious about buying new machines who feel they don't need to speak with shop owners running the presses, that one of their main reasons for buying an MHM is never having to re-level pallets, or parallel the press over time. Misinformation costs shops tons later on or causes them to go under. I know MHM is a good choice for anyone as they are pretty awesome machines, the attraction to me has always been the flip up print heads, and full control at each head, but I'm also a huge fan of the newer machines M&R is putting out ie: the C3, and for more sophisticated machines like up in this realm the service. Not trying to sway my buddy, just let him see for himself how things work in the real day today shop environment. Thanks to all you guys putting your honest input, if there is anything else good, or bad, please continue to add as it's informative for anyone out there trying to make decisions.
i can see where under ideal circumstances you would not have to adjust the platens, but that could most likely be said of all presses these days. We all know that circumstances are never ideal and things happen (ask me about indexing the press with the screen between the heads. mangled up some pretty thick metal and obviously threw the arm out of level). Printing platens with fresh glue will likely pull the off contact down a little and even potentially move it sideways if it happens while the press is in auto mode. Under normal circumstances, these things are not done and press should be fine, but we all know what knuckleheads we can be at a time. . . After such things, press needs adjusting.
I have been told by the press tech not to mess with the leveling adjustments as he thought it should not be necessary.
It is my opinion that the main benefit of the MHM is the ease of setup. While trilock works very well, having floating micros (they are not locked down and can be adjusted mid run by just turning the knobs) and the good FPU is a better setup. All together, I think the changeovers are somewhat faster than other presses. CHIII is starting to kick MHM's behind with some of the features and I have to admit to being jealous at a time.
My suggestion would be to have your buddy go and see the presses in action. This will speak volumes.
pierre
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Pierre, we need to do "Printer Swap". I'll come visit you and your press, then you come visit me and mine.
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We've been running our Synchro "S" Type 10/12 for about 8 or 9 years without re-leveling. It's pretty cool actually. Our old gauntlet is a pain when that needs to be done, about once a year, but it's well worth it. My problem with new players in the field like the S-Roque is whether the service commitment is there, though I thought I read that they've been around for a while, just not in the US. But to reiterate, MHM makes a truly great machine.
Steve
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Pierre, we need to do "Printer Swap". I'll come visit you and your press, then you come visit me and mine.
I have been seriously thinking about that since our last conversation. I also have to admit to being scared of seeing the CHIIID in action. It might seriously interfere with my admiration for the MHM!
pierre
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Question for Steve, Pierre and Sean and any other MHM owners...
How many times have you had to have repair made by a MHM Technical outside of self inflicted wounds (Accidents) .. bet most can easily be completed your self when needed.
These MHM machines are incredibly well designed, engineered and built, the FPU, pinned screens, pallet change over, squeegee angel adjustment, adjust registration on the fly are amazingly cool. lets say you are setting up a 8 color job and want to flip screen 3 and 5 with the pin system you just move it and it is almost in registration. I can go on but you all have heard this before. I owned Tas before MHM and have never owned a M&R press but I can assure you there is no perfect machine, by the way in 20 years running TAS I was down 4 hours 1 time, re registering was never needed and truly zero pallet- pallet arm flex.. the MHM technician Rodney is amazingly cool, attentive, available and knows these machines like the back of his hand. The biggest issue i have with this machine is that you can not print youth and skinny girl fit long sleeves the pallet arm is to big.
With all that said when I am ready to buy another press you bet I will take a strong look at M&R as well.
Robert
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I've always admired MHM. I've said this before but the first auto that I'd seen besides an American Centurian was and MHM E-type at the Ft Worth ISS show back in 05 or 06 and I was amazed. It was at that moment I knew we had to get rid of the Centurian and get some new technology in the shop if we wanted to sustain the growth I was expecting. I'd really love to see an X-type or Xtreme but I'm sort of confused as to what models they are going to have going forward. The S-type is a sweet machine that I would love to have and aside from a new CH 3, it would be my choice of press if I had a spare 120K laying around. I think it compares well to the CH 3 but when it comes to an investment of that size there are few other things to consider but it sounds like MHM is committed to competing with big blue. But unfortunately there is another company I'm not particularly fond of at the moment in Hirsch that complicates things for me. That's another thread alltogether.
I wish there were some MHM's here in town that I could check out but I'm not aware of a single one within 100 miles.
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I know this is off the MHM subject, but here again, someone saying a certain press never needs pallet leveling, but is that true in the real world? would be cool if it is true, but is it. sRoque Screen Printing Press FAQ - Lock and Roq Garment Platen System ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gpua3pVl7U#ws[/url])
We have a S.Roque and it is solid as a rock. We have only been running it for 8 months, but at last check everything was still nuts on. Scary almost, considering we were used to anatol.... We have a ECO not the YOU that is usually pushed. But the machines are so beefy I would believe leveling would not be a issue. Again, we have only had the press running 8 months so I can't attest to years of use and leveling.
Pallet change over is incredible, 12 pallets, 2 guys, just under 3min. We have to swap pallets probably average about 1 every week and a half for different jobs.
Alan- I believe MHM is replacing the S-Type with the X-Type or the X-Treme. That was at least my understanding when I was talking with MHM when we were press shopping. I have heard from a TON of people they didn't want to deal with Hirsch, SPSI more sells MHM's.
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Question for Steve, Pierre and Sean and any other MHM owners...
How many times have you had to have repair made by a MHM Technical outside of self inflicted wounds (Accidents) .. bet most can easily be completed your self when needed.
These MHM machines are incredibly well designed, engineered and built, the FPU, pinned screens, pallet change over, squeegee angel adjustment, adjust registration on the fly are amazingly cool. lets say you are setting up a 8 color job and want to flip screen 3 and 5 with the pin system you just move it and it is almost in registration. I can go on but you all have heard this before. I owned Tas before MHM and have never owned a M&R press but I can assure you there is no perfect machine, by the way in 20 years running TAS I was down 4 hours 1 time, re registering was never needed and truly zero pallet- pallet arm flex.. the MHM technician Rodney is amazingly cool, attentive, available and knows these machines like the back of his hand. The biggest issue i have with this machine is that you can not print youth and skinny girl fit long sleeves the pallet arm is to big.
With all that said when I am ready to buy another press you bet I will take a strong look at M&R as well.
Robert
we've made any repairs ourselves. The more difficult were done over the phone. And I made a mistake, our press is not 8 -9 years old, it's 12! Damn, it's going by so fast...
Steve
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Steve, how many impressions on that S-type? 12 years old and still runs great is a great testament to the reliability and durability. Are there any pics of your S-type anywhere Steve? I was wondering how it looked compared to the current S-types.
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I've moved our two S-Types three times each, and I am constantly amazed that when it's re-assemble time,
we're almost always dead on parallel. Don't ask me how it works, I don't know, it just does.
There's two points for the screen hangers, two bolts each end of the screen, but stacked horizontally
if that makes sense. The pallets have little riser bars under them if you need to raise one side front or
back.
We do re-level once a year or so. And the floating squeegee chingadero makes it tougher then on basically
any other press. You can't float a floodbar over the pallet to see where you're at.
We use a metal frame welded with the MHM pins and 4 dial indicators towards the corners. 4 bar clamps on the corners
of the holders to the head extrusions make for precise adjustment and holding position while tightening
the hangers. Clear as mud?
(CHINGADERO)? Thought we were the only shop that used those ;D
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Steve, how many impressions on that S-type? 12 years old and still runs great is a great testament to the reliability and durability. Are there any pics of your S-type anywhere Steve? I was wondering how it looked compared to the current S-types.
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WOW! 12 years!? You kept that beauty SUPER clean!!!!!
I have to admit, the moveable control panel/board is a super nice feature you don't realize until it is gone!
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The new models have full machine control at each head now right? I think so. That's an awesome feature, I know I hate being on the opposite side of my machine, and then realize I need a function, then have to run around, grab the panel. It's a good idea for me or whoever is running our DB to always bring the control panel with you, but honestly, that's a pain in the ass, especially on a rushed type of day and you are getting worn out. I'd love the ability to control most of the press at a print head, personal feature I think well worth it.
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It gets fairly ratty sometimes, then we clean it. This is from last year after said cleaning... And yes, having full control at each head is a great improvement, I'd love to see a new one up close and personal... but it's still a great machine, even though getting long in tooth.
Steve
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Having control of the press at the print heads is something I'll never go without. Even though I don't print much anymore, my guys won't go without it. There is absolutely nothing that we have ever had to go back to the main control panel for except to start or restart the actual production run. We can stop production from any print head but not restart and you'd never need to do that from a print head because you need to be at the control panel to run a job 99.9% of the time. There aren't many deal breakers for a new press except print head controls, just like a lot of guys with CTS wouldn't live without it, we couldn't live without plenty of features at the print head.
The new MHM models look to be the S-type Xtreme, X-type Plus and the 4000. I guess they've had some changes because I thought a little while back they were going to have an Xtreme and an X-type.
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You guys are right, the controls on the print heads are the bees knees. I would roll with those over a rotating head any day. I find myself at times going from printing on the S.Roque(print head control) back to tweak something or help with setup on the anatol I find myself at the end of the print head wanting the machine to index!
Before we had the S.Roque all I really knew was the moving control, went to help out a friend at another shop and they had a base model of another press and the head was solid in the load/unload position. It really does sound weird to hear guys Bit*h about walking around the press for this or that. But that time can add up!
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Say like on the S-type press, do all of the screen holders go up and down in a cycle, or only the ones on active heads? Just curious. I'm pretty sure the Challenger 3 screen holders only move up and down on a head that is active. Some vids I've watched from MHM looks like they all are always moving up and down, but that could just be for viewing in the video, MHM guys will have to tune in on this one.
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All heads move up and down regardless if they are printing or not.
Tripped me out when I first got my press. I even asked about maybe adding
an on/off valve to save air. Now I could care less.
There's a hand valve that actuates a high lift for the front of the screen so that
nothing you're printing will ever be affected by having a screen in the head. We constantly
setup as many jobs as possible on press and then just lift the screens up.
I'd say the CH3 is an ode of sorts to the Syncroprint and 3000/4000 series machines.
Imitation being the sincerest form of flattery. Now if we could just get the FPU concept
to cross the Atlantic and marry it with the Tri-Loc I'd be in screen printing heaven.
M&R will likely be my next machines, because all else being equal, you can't beat American
made and serviced.
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my next question would be, since CTS is so spot on accurate, has any of the guys here using MHM gotten into CTS yet. Since the screens used in MHM and Sroques have to have pins installed on them, I wonder how that works out when a screen is snapped into the holder of a CTS. I know the I-Image simulates trilock with a 3 point stopping spots. Theoretically, it shoudl be faster and more dead on. I would venture to say the higher end M&R machines lock the screens in better since the do it in a totally different fashion than our Diamond Back. My buddy's been using to his Anatol presses, with their side clamps too. I know he's looking at an I-Image st, and a Kiwo DTS. I know when we lock our screens into our DB, there is some movement. he says on his Anatol there isn't and says the reason we have a slight shift is that we have a bar, where his presses have little feet that lock down on the frames. This is obviously a curious cenario as well. I know the flip up had on the C3 and those insanly heavy duty screen holders are really nice. Seems, as long as your frames are not "racked" there shouldn't be any movement, but you do have to pop a holder loose if you"need" to micro. On our DB most of the time, believe it or not, unless it's not a huge adjmustment, we don't even unlock the oposite side frame lock for microing, don't ask me how that works, it just does, weird but if it ain't broke, don't mess with it right.
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my next question would be, since CTS is so spot on accurate, has any of the guys here using MHM gotten into CTS yet. Since the screens used in MHM and Sroques have to have pins installed on them, I wonder how that works out when a screen is snapped into the holder of a CTS. I know the I-Image simulates trilock with a 3 point stopping spots. Theoretically, it shoudl be faster and more dead on. I would venture to say the higher end M&R machines lock the screens in better since the do it in a totally different fashion than our Diamond Back. My buddy's been using to his Anatol presses, with their side clamps too. I know he's looking at an I-Image st, and a Kiwo DTS. I know when we lock our screens into our DB, there is some movement. he says on his Anatol there isn't and says the reason we have a slight shift is that we have a bar, where his presses have little feet that lock down on the frames. This is obviously a curious cenario as well. I know the flip up had on the C3 and those insanly heavy duty screen holders are really nice. Seems, as long as your frames are not "racked" there shouldn't be any movement, but you do have to pop a holder loose if you"need" to micro. On our DB most of the time, believe it or not, unless it's not a huge adjmustment, we don't even unlock the oposite side frame lock for microing, don't ask me how that works, it just does, weird but if it ain't broke, don't mess with it right.
From the DTS companies I have talked to, they all said it would not be a issue to have the DTS set up for S.Roque screens since they are so similar to MHM screens. None of them even hesitated.
The interesting thing is, with the addition of a DTS system a MHM or S.Roque user does not have a use for their FPU/PRU. I hadn't thought about this much in detail until I went and picked up 2 used FPU's(Pierre, I haven't forgotten about you) from a place that had upgraded to a DTS system. Spent a bit of time with the screen guy there, great guy. He liked the DTS system a lot, said one time they inadvertently held a .5%(yes, one half) dot. They couldn't even see it on the screen, but when they just printed that one screen there it was. He said it screwed up the whole print.
Sorry, I had gotten off the subject there, but they can be made to work with MHM or S.Roque screens, yes.
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my next question would be, since CTS is so spot on accurate, has any of the guys here using MHM gotten into CTS yet. Since the screens used in MHM and Sroques have to have pins installed on them, I wonder how that works out when a screen is snapped into the holder of a CTS. I know the I-Image simulates trilock with a 3 point stopping spots. Theoretically, it shoudl be faster and more dead on. I would venture to say the higher end M&R machines lock the screens in better since the do it in a totally different fashion than our Diamond Back. My buddy's been using to his Anatol presses, with their side clamps too. I know he's looking at an I-Image st, and a Kiwo DTS. I know when we lock our screens into our DB, there is some movement. he says on his Anatol there isn't and says the reason we have a slight shift is that we have a bar, where his presses have little feet that lock down on the frames. This is obviously a curious cenario as well. I know the flip up had on the C3 and those insanly heavy duty screen holders are really nice. Seems, as long as your frames are not "racked" there shouldn't be any movement, but you do have to pop a holder loose if you"need" to micro. On our DB most of the time, believe it or not, unless it's not a huge adjmustment, we don't even unlock the oposite side frame lock for microing, don't ask me how that works, it just does, weird but if it ain't broke, don't mess with it right.
If the move is less than 1/8 inch, you don't have to unlock the frame. All M&R presses work this way. At least the 12 or so I have used work that way.
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my next question would be, since CTS is so spot on accurate, has any of the guys here using MHM gotten into CTS yet. Since the screens used in MHM and Sroques have to have pins installed on them, I wonder how that works out when a screen is snapped into the holder of a CTS. I know the I-Image simulates trilock with a 3 point stopping spots. Theoretically, it shoudl be faster and more dead on. I would venture to say the higher end M&R machines lock the screens in better since the do it in a totally different fashion than our Diamond Back. My buddy's been using to his Anatol presses, with their side clamps too. I know he's looking at an I-Image st, and a Kiwo DTS. I know when we lock our screens into our DB, there is some movement. he says on his Anatol there isn't and says the reason we have a slight shift is that we have a bar, where his presses have little feet that lock down on the frames. This is obviously a curious cenario as well. I know the flip up had on the C3 and those insanly heavy duty screen holders are really nice. Seems, as long as your frames are not "racked" there shouldn't be any movement, but you do have to pop a holder loose if you"need" to micro. On our DB most of the time, believe it or not, unless it's not a huge adjmustment, we don't even unlock the oposite side frame lock for microing, don't ask me how that works, it just does, weird but if it ain't broke, don't mess with it right.
If the move is less than 1/8 inch, you don't have to unlock the frame. All M&R presses work this way. At least the 12 or so I have used work that way.
It took us a couple months to learn that when we first got our press. Everyone kept telling us to unlock the other side, and it was all wacky. Then I talked to a friend with a sportsman, even though his is front and rear, he told me the same and boom. But like you say, if you are way off, unlock and skate. Thankfully with the I-Image, microing is very very slight once and a while. I'm noticing a trend over time now that we've had it for 8 months. Say we are printing a 2-8 color job, which ever, it seems head number 1, underbase head, always seems to be the one off. I watch out for it now, but I'd be going around the press making the same adjustments of the other heads then figured it out, head 1 shifts the screen frame for some reason. It's time for a total re-leveling I'm thinking.
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Alex, you can't index the Anatol from a print head?
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Alex, you can't index the Anatol from a print head?
No.
I can clamp and unclamp the screens. We can kind of control the flood and print speed, but my 2yr. old son does a better job controlling his bladder. I imagine that is more of a function of it being pneumatic print heads though(the anatol, not my son :P )
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my next question would be, since CTS is so spot on accurate, has any of the guys here using MHM gotten into CTS yet. Since the screens used in MHM and Sroques have to have pins installed on them, I wonder how that works out when a screen is snapped into the holder of a CTS. I know the I-Image simulates trilock with a 3 point stopping spots. Theoretically, it shoudl be faster and more dead on. I would venture to say the higher end M&R machines lock the screens in better since the do it in a totally different fashion than our Diamond Back. My buddy's been using to his Anatol presses, with their side clamps too. I know he's looking at an I-Image st, and a Kiwo DTS. I know when we lock our screens into our DB, there is some movement. he says on his Anatol there isn't and says the reason we have a slight shift is that we have a bar, where his presses have little feet that lock down on the frames. This is obviously a curious cenario as well. I know the flip up had on the C3 and those insanly heavy duty screen holders are really nice. Seems, as long as your frames are not "racked" there shouldn't be any movement, but you do have to pop a holder loose if you"need" to micro. On our DB most of the time, believe it or not, unless it's not a huge adjmustment, we don't even unlock the oposite side frame lock for microing, don't ask me how that works, it just does, weird but if it ain't broke, don't mess with it right.
If the move is less than 1/8 inch, you don't have to unlock the frame. All M&R presses work this way. At least the 12 or so I have used work that way.
It took us a couple months to learn that when we first got our press. Everyone kept telling us to unlock the other side, and it was all wacky. Then I talked to a friend with a sportsman, even though his is front and rear, he told me the same and boom. But like you say, if you are way off, unlock and skate. Thankfully with the I-Image, microing is very very slight once and a while. I'm noticing a trend over time now that we've had it for 8 months. Say we are printing a 2-8 color job, which ever, it seems head number 1, underbase head, always seems to be the one off. I watch out for it now, but I'd be going around the press making the same adjustments of the other heads then figured it out, head 1 shifts the screen frame for some reason. It's time for a total re-leveling I'm thinking.
Seems like viscosity/tack of the white ink will offset registration down slightly--is it always off towards the pull direction?
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If the move is less than 1/8 inch, you don't have to unlock the frame. All M&R presses work this way. At least the 12 or so I have used work that way.
Well dang, I'm going to try this out. It holds an adjustment done in this manner throughout the run?
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If the move is less than 1/8 inch, you don't have to unlock the frame. All M&R presses work this way. At least the 12 or so I have used work that way.
Well dang, I'm going to try this out. It holds an adjustment done in this manner throughout the run?
absolutely! been doing it this way for 16 years.
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my next question would be, since CTS is so spot on accurate, has any of the guys here using MHM gotten into CTS yet. Since the screens used in MHM and Sroques have to have pins installed on them, I wonder how that works out when a screen is snapped into the holder of a CTS. I know the I-Image simulates trilock with a 3 point stopping spots. Theoretically, it shoudl be faster and more dead on. I would venture to say the higher end M&R machines lock the screens in better since the do it in a totally different fashion than our Diamond Back. My buddy's been using to his Anatol presses, with their side clamps too. I know he's looking at an I-Image st, and a Kiwo DTS. I know when we lock our screens into our DB, there is some movement. he says on his Anatol there isn't and says the reason we have a slight shift is that we have a bar, where his presses have little feet that lock down on the frames. This is obviously a curious cenario as well. I know the flip up had on the C3 and those insanly heavy duty screen holders are really nice. Seems, as long as your frames are not "racked" there shouldn't be any movement, but you do have to pop a holder loose if you"need" to micro. On our DB most of the time, believe it or not, unless it's not a huge adjmustment, we don't even unlock the oposite side frame lock for microing, don't ask me how that works, it just does, weird but if it ain't broke, don't mess with it right.
If the move is less than 1/8 inch, you don't have to unlock the frame. All M&R presses work this way. At least the 12 or so I have used work that way.
It took us a couple months to learn that when we first got our press. Everyone kept telling us to unlock the other side, and it was all wacky. Then I talked to a friend with a sportsman, even though his is front and rear, he told me the same and boom. But like you say, if you are way off, unlock and skate. Thankfully with the I-Image, microing is very very slight once and a while. I'm noticing a trend over time now that we've had it for 8 months. Say we are printing a 2-8 color job, which ever, it seems head number 1, underbase head, always seems to be the one off. I watch out for it now, but I'd be going around the press making the same adjustments of the other heads then figured it out, head 1 shifts the screen frame for some reason. It's time for a total re-leveling I'm thinking.
due to the fact it's the white screen I would suggest you watch the squeegee pressure on that head if the image is out on the white towards the inside try backing off pressure. If off toward the outside increase the pressure and see if it changes before touching the micro.
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I will pay attention to that for sure Rich, thanks!
Ok so, so far what it looks like, is the M&R Challenger 3 is the only press that screen frames "only" move when the head is activated. Allowing one to possibly have another job or two on the machine without any worries of the screen coming down and touching, without having to do any other types of special adjustments to avoid that. I know the Roq looks like you move a handle and the print head doesn't travel as much. So with that said, being the fact that the C3's print heads as a whole only function if activated would say over all there is less wear on parts. Like if the MHM frames always move up and down, those parts are always getting wear and tear regardless if the head is in use or not, something for folks to think about. The Roq doesn't have any of those parts as it's 1 motor moving all of the frames up and down, but you could be screwed if that 1 motor goes out, all heads are down. I'm sure that motor is very reliable, but that might be the one costly part a high production shop with those presses should have handy. I know coming up with a motor sometimes isn't easy over night. I know we got off topic here, but I think this is very useful info folks looking into new machines. Like my friends, there are a ton of watchers who don't sign up to the forums, they just read. So getting a bit in depth about what certain presses actually do, I think, is good. Up till now, I had no clue that all screen frames on an MHM moved all the time, I assumed they were only active when activated. Reminds me of the "all heads chop" on our DB, which I personally can't stand, but they did away with that on newer models, which is a huge improvement, along with a servo indexer, Still the DB for it's price is a money making machine as it's been the drive for us. But back to the topic, it seems, no matter what machine you have, in the end, when you have enough daily use, all the machines need to be adjusted, and if done properly, might not be a monthly thing, more of an annual maintenance thing. Thanks everyone for being cool on this thread and giving your honest input from your daily, yearly, experiences with your gear!
Mike ;D
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I will pay attention to that for sure Rich, thanks!
Ok so, so far what it looks like, is the M&R Challenger 3 is the only press that screen frames "only" move when the head is activated. Allowing one to possibly have another job or two on the machine without any worries of the screen coming down and touching, without having to do any other types of special adjustments to avoid that. I know the Roq looks like you move a handle and the print head doesn't travel as much. So with that said, being the fact that the C3's print heads as a whole only function if activated would say over all there is less wear on parts. Like if the MHM frames always move up and down, those parts are always getting wear and tear regardless if the head is in use or not, something for folks to think about. The Roq doesn't have any of those parts as it's 1 motor moving all of the frames up and down, but you could be screwed if that 1 motor goes out, all heads are down. I'm sure that motor is very reliable, but that might be the one costly part a high production shop with those presses should have handy. I know coming up with a motor sometimes isn't easy over night. I know we got off topic here, but I think this is very useful info folks looking into new machines. Like my friends, there are a ton of watchers who don't sign up to the forums, they just read. So getting a bit in depth about what certain presses actually do, I think, is good. Up till now, I had no clue that all screen frames on an MHM moved all the time, I assumed they were only active when activated. Reminds me of the "all heads chop" on our DB, which I personally can't stand, but they did away with that on newer models, which is a huge improvement, along with a servo indexer, Still the DB for it's price is a money making machine as it's been the drive for us. But back to the topic, it seems, no matter what machine you have, in the end, when you have enough daily use, all the machines need to be adjusted, and if done properly, might not be a monthly thing, more of an annual maintenance thing. Thanks everyone for being cool on this thread and giving your honest input from your daily, yearly, experiences with your gear!
Mike ;D
I could be wrong, but my recollection of the latest S Type is that only the active heads move. The 4000 however the whole top moves up and down. The Oval I know is individual stations move only when activated.
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Ok so, so far what it looks like, is the M&R Challenger 3 is the only press that screen frames "only" move when the head is activated. Allowing one to possibly have another job or two on the machine without any worries of the screen coming down and touching, without having to do any other types of special adjustments to avoid that.
Nope, S-Types will do that all day long. We have three jobs setup on one press right now, two on the other. We don't
even worry about bulky stuff like hoodie pockets. Line 'em up, ink and squeegees, lift the valve, print the other
jobs, and when it's ready, just drop the valve and print arm and print. Easy peasy.
As for wear, on my old American press, I went through Bimba chop cylinders like nobodies business. I haven't had
to replace a single Festo cylinder on either of my presses. I really do feel there's a huge quality difference there.
(they use air cylinders to raise and lower the screens)
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Thanks for that input EB!!
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I will pay attention to that for sure Rich, thanks!
Ok so, so far what it looks like, is the M&R Challenger 3 is the only press that screen frames "only" move when the head is activated. Allowing one to possibly have another job or two on the machine without any worries of the screen coming down and touching, without having to do any other types of special adjustments to avoid that. I know the Roq looks like you move a handle and the print head doesn't travel as much. So with that said, being the fact that the C3's print heads as a whole only function if activated would say over all there is less wear on parts. Like if the MHM frames always move up and down, those parts are always getting wear and tear regardless if the head is in use or not, something for folks to think about. The Roq doesn't have any of those parts as it's 1 motor moving all of the frames up and down, but you could be screwed if that 1 motor goes out, all heads are down. I'm sure that motor is very reliable, but that might be the one costly part a high production shop with those presses should have handy. I know coming up with a motor sometimes isn't easy over night. I know we got off topic here, but I think this is very useful info folks looking into new machines. Like my friends, there are a ton of watchers who don't sign up to the forums, they just read. So getting a bit in depth about what certain presses actually do, I think, is good. Up till now, I had no clue that all screen frames on an MHM moved all the time, I assumed they were only active when activated. Reminds me of the "all heads chop" on our DB, which I personally can't stand, but they did away with that on newer models, which is a huge improvement, along with a servo indexer, Still the DB for it's price is a money making machine as it's been the drive for us. But back to the topic, it seems, no matter what machine you have, in the end, when you have enough daily use, all the machines need to be adjusted, and if done properly, might not be a monthly thing, more of an annual maintenance thing. Thanks everyone for being cool on this thread and giving your honest input from your daily, yearly, experiences with your gear!
Mike ;D
The S.Roque "Amigia" and "YOU" raise all the print heads. The ECO and their OVAL models only raise the actual head being printed. This was one of the things on my list as well. When I had it narrowed down the M&R machine that was closest to the S.Roque ECO was the "CHALLENGER III 70" I believe.
If you or anyone else want's I could have one of the guys take a video on their phone today of the individual head print.
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My old Auto-Rototex II would also only drop the printing heads. Very similar to the Roques, more of a pivot.
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ha, i met the southeast sales rep for Festo on vacation. Reminds me, I need to call him and order some parts...super helpful guy.
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we frequently set up multiple jobs on the S type, no issues with scraping against the other screens
Steve