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screen printing => Ink and Chemicals => Topic started by: dirkdiggler on September 19, 2013, 08:37:49 AM
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As a long time user of Wilflex brand inks, I am sorry to say I must seek other lines of ink. My last purchase of a gallon of epic vegas gold was around $90, today they are telling me almost $200 for a gallon. You have lost your mind! Why would anyone pay that? The IC comparison is like $70. Ridiculous! I loved you Wilflex, why would you do this to me after 16 years? Rutland, you out there? Are you hearing this?
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I can make this in DC for under $30
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I'm curious ro see what I got charged dor a gall of wil super lemon yellow that I ordered yesterday. The price hikes are a lil nuts. We've been loving the Rutland Street fighter lb white. Guess whst. Rutland buys thier resins from polyone, but thier ink is still in the realistic price range.
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We may be forced to go DC and WB if plastisol keeps rising like this. I think the last time I bought wilflex spot colors I said the same thing, and I only had to pay $120 for super genesis super red.
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Epic Vegas gold on Nazdars site is showing $228 holy crap!
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when i plugged in my ingredient cost into the wilflex software and calculated the cost for 4000 grams of vegas gold - came to less than $40
we use the Epic PC system
even factoring the labor cost into making a gallon, plus a bucket - still comes in under $45
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I just did the same thing, and adjusted base to minimum for highest opacity, and I still got 65.00 for a gallon. That's Epic PC. Checked pricing as of today before doing any calculations. Of course that's using costs from my distributor, not yours. Again, in the Epic PC line. (I know, Tony. WB is still less expensive :D)
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Xenon Lemon Yellow $43 per gallon.
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I must admit that I don't buy nearly as much ink, nearly as often, but have noticed a gradual creep up. But, can Wilflex be ahead of the curve? Could this new pricing have any proportional validity, or is it similar to the petroleum industry seemingly adding to the price of gasoline ten times the amount of the increase to a barrel of crude?
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Used to make WB Black for....................................$3.00 per gal.
Not kidding 4 ingredients plus a lot of water. Yes we have a homogenizer.
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Used to make WB Black for....................................$3.00 per gal.
Not kidding 4 ingredients plus a lot of water. Yes we have a homogenizer.
That's awesome!
How much is it now? $10-15 a gallon? still making it?
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No not making it any more. Rather harsh on mesh
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It sounds like that is now a discontinued color. Seems really odd to discontinue vegas gold but that's what it looks like. If you look at Dallas Green, it's 73.24 a gal but Super Dallas Green, which is discontinued, is 292.98. I think Wilflex is saying they're done mixing these spots but will make you a bucket if you really, really, really want it.
I looked at buying their spots awhile ago and, like others with the PC system, found it far cheaper to mix our own at almost any level of pigment loading and I don't like dealing with sudden discontinuations. They're also charging way too much for the super opaques, that's just an opaque base with max/higher pigment load, the super opaques have no low bleed or otherwise special characteristics, just thicker HO ink. As Dave said, this is around $65/gallon to make, depending on your shop's base and pig costs. Very reasonable for an HO ink. $120/gal, not so reasonable.
I think it's really time for them to decide what their stock color set is going to be or they're going to lose a lot of printers who buy pre-mix colors frequently.
And, not to sh!t on the parade Alan, but going high solids, PVC free if significantly higher in cost than phthalate-free plastisol. Not for regular WB/DC but to be able to print on the wide variety of garments you can with plasti using an HSA type system cost more, gram for gram. Still digging into it...I'm sure there are other factors to weigh.
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WOW!!! That is some crazy pricing for some ink. We have matched some of the main Wilflex colors with our Excalibur line. They are a heck of a lot cheaper than wilflex . We can also match other brands as well. All we need is a wet sample of the color, and our color matcher can make it. He has been matching colors for 8+ years. If you need pricing call our office at 678-838-7712.
Wilflex colors with our ink!!!!
National Red
Lt Royal
Bears Navy
Scarlet
Dolphin Orange
Lemon Yellow
Dallas Green
Kelly Green
Spice Brown
Russell Purple
Russell Gray
Contact Blue
We at Spot Color Supply Stand by our product 100% . If you try any of our products and don’t like it we will refund the product and the shipping.
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Hey Dirk. Zoo city is spot on. This is a non-standard color hence the price.
When Wilflex converted from Genesis to Epic they discontinued a number of colors. They had like 80 and now have 49 plus the specialties - still more than the other major brands. I think Rutland has 20? Not sure.
The logic is simple really. Unless you use a mixing system, how many standard colors would you offer your customers? 10? 20? 100? 300? It is a matter of offering enough to satisfy most while keeping your working capital as low as you can. Always a balance.
This should not be on our website at SourceOne since it is a non-standard. Left over I guess. We have some cleaning up to do!
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Of course, as business folks we have to understand "thinning the herd" as a means to better bottom line.
On the other hand, as screen printers, a major recurring frustration is the discontinuation of a product which has been a vital component of a long running ongoing job.
It is great though that you can give the formulas in your mixing systems, to match these discontinued (and I assume standard) colors.
Have you guys gotten around to stocking small containers of your pigments (or RFU, for that matter)
I know for me, often a quart could last for years for some colors.
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Hey Dirk. Zoo city is spot on. This is a non-standard color hence the price.
When Wilflex converted from Genesis to Epic they discontinued a number of colors. They had like 80 and now have 49 plus the specialties - still more than the other major brands. I think Rutland has 20? Not sure.
The logic is simple really. Unless you use a mixing system, how many standard colors would you offer your customers? 10? 20? 100? 300? It is a matter of offering enough to satisfy most while keeping your working capital as low as you can. Always a balance.
This should not be on our website at SourceOne since it is a non-standard. Left over I guess. We have some cleaning up to do!
That color has not been discontinued to my knowledge! It is an epic color. May be coming down the line, but not currently I don't think. Wouldn't be a big deal, but I have 4 customers that use it in their logo, so I need it. I understand they don't want to have a lot of inventory, so they force the end user to mix it themselves. Or go shopping for another brand. Think I will be getting the IC vegas gold. I already have been switching some colors over to IC with ZERO problems and WAY cheaper. Not smart Wilflex, not smart!
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Dirk- just checked my lit. There is no Epic Vegas Gold on the color card thus it is considered a CUSTOM non-standard now. There IS the new Epic Top Score Vegas Gold as a Standard - $95 per gallon.
And yes, there is a reason that SourceOne starting inventorying the IC 7600 colors in gals and quarts. The corresponding Wilflex colors are significantly more expensive, and we needed an alternative for our customers like you! I am glad that we can continue to support your business.
I van state that when it comes to color systems, Wilfex is top notch. Color accuracy, consistency, wet on wet printing can't be beat. The standard colors are top notch as well, but unfortunately have been priced over market in many cases.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 2
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Thanks Rob, We will figure out something. Its not gonna beat me. If it can be made for $40, ANYONE with the mixing system should be making it and selling it for $80, or any color for that matter. Seems simple.
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It cant be said enough. Get a mixing system! You are throwing money down the drain on pre-made colors. Yes it cost a lot up front but if you are a busy shop it pays for itself in no time at all.
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That`s my thought too and that`s why we have ordered our Wilflex Epic PC system now. Just wondering how long the quarter gallon pcs will last before we`ll have to switch to gallon size pigments.
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Rockers - this may help you a bit. If you are using the actual PC system, Epic Mixing base will account for ~80% of your usage (with Equalizers - base is ~70%). Of the pigment load, white and yellow will by far be used the most - perhaps 40-60% of the total - white being 25-40% by itself. After that it really depends upon your color palette, but Marine Blue, Blue, perhaps Magenta.
So for example, say you mix 10 gals of color per month. your usage of each MAY be like:
Base - 8 gals
Extra White PC - 0.8 gals
Bright Yellow - 0.3 gals
Blue - 0.04 gals
Marine - 0.04 gals
Magenta - 0.03 gals
Remaining 10 pc's combined - 0.8 gals.
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heres our ink usage - we use the Epic PC with the standard GNS base. in 2012 we ordered 360 gallons of base before a price increase, it took us about a year to finish it off. you will notice that the amount of base is way off in 2013...
when a bucket is opened, another is ordered. i keep some at a one gallon minimum unopened and some at 2 or more unopened.
i use MS Excel to average how much ink was used within a timeframe and when i do inventory i can input into the spreadsheet how much is left and can find out a rough idea how many days of ink i have left. on some supplies i add a few days for shipping
i have nearly all the supplies in production inventoried this way - therefore we dont run out of anything.
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Zelko: Thanks for posting this. Your usage absolutely dovetails with my breakdown above. In 2013, White was just under 30% of your total pigment usage, while yellow was 15% -- combined for over 40%. Your next two most used were blue and marine blue. Interesting that you used a good bit of Electron Yellow as well.
Put your pricing in your sheet and then you can calculate your exact costing on your usage!
Good stuff! Thanks again!
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What is the cost of getting setup on one of these systems... on the smallest level practical (for space and usage reasons... we are SMALL time).
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Zelko: Thanks for posting this. Your usage absolutely dovetails with my breakdown above. In 2013, White was just under 30% of your total pigment usage, while yellow was 15% -- combined for over 40%. Your next two most used were blue and marine blue. Interesting that you used a good bit of Electron Yellow as well.
Put your pricing in your sheet and then you can calculate your exact costing on your usage!
Good stuff! Thanks again!
Electron Yellow? we really didnt use that much. my last purchase of a gallon was in December 2012.
i do have pricing - but per Nazdar quotes stating that cant share my pricing so i cropped it out of the picture i uploaded. that being said - we have saved a good deal of money by switching to Nazdar as a vendor and David Heald as an inside sales rep.
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We are looking at a mixing system. Probably gonna be equalizer.
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I thought we were oddballs going through so much Bright Yellow. Glad to see we're not alone.
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What is the cost of getting setup on one of these systems... on the smallest level practical (for space and usage reasons... we are SMALL time).
They offer kits here http://www.sourceoneonline.com/item.asp?productID=169 (http://www.sourceoneonline.com/item.asp?productID=169) it's at the top of the drop down list where you would choose the colors. From my research, it looks like the smaller kit is pints of pigments and a gallon of base. I am thinking of getting the smaller kit in a moment since I found out a little late that I needed to match a PMS color with top score or equivalent ink and this seems like the best deal for that purpose.
The one issue is, once you are done with a pig from the kit, then you have to buy a gallon to replace it. In the long run, this isn't a big deal, but the price of a gallon of a color of a pigment can seem expensive if you are used to seeing only RFU gallon pricing. After using pigs for waterbased printing, oh my goodness, it is so much sweeter than trying to mix straight plastisol.
I suppose there is another issue if you are tight on space, it can be a bit much after a while of using the system unless you can mix exactly the amount of ink you need, you'll probably be left with extras. Those extras will start to take up a bit of space if you aren't careful. Though, if wilflex's mixing software is like the colorstar software, you should be able to plug in previously mixed inks and it can tell you what to add to get to another color. Come to think of it, it's really up to you though. You can either mix custom inks to take advantage of all of the systems capabilities, or just mix standard colors and save over buying RFU. It really depends on what you offer your customers.
I suppose I will ask here since it's a hot topic, what is the viscosity of the pc express pigments? Are they like the CCI WB Pigments? Can they be put into squeeze bottles?
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Zelko: my bad on the electron yellow - misread the sheet. It was bright orange that followed the marine and blue in order quantity.
EB: yellow is used a ton - in most all mixing systems, so you are definitely not alone!
Gilligan: How much finished color do you think you would mix a month on average? Total. Not printing whites and such, but actual mixed color. Also, do you need a scale? Are you comfortable with working with pigments or prefer an RFU mixing system?
You have initial start-up cost and then monthly costs. For a small shop, the initial cost will probably be higher, but the savings will be in reduced ink inventory and cost each month. There are a few different Wilflex start-up packages available.
You can pm me if you want and I can spitball something for you.
Rob
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@Stu - The pigments are available in quarts. SourceOne has not historically inventoried these, however we can certainly order them. Looking to stock quarts in select locations.
Viscosity - no you cannot squeeze bottle the pigments - they range in viscosity from pourable to very pasty.
We actually sell a LOT more of the Wilflex EQUALIZER concentrates - there are pigments with some resin in the mix to make them "curable" (similar to the Rutland C3 boosters). You can add up to 50% pigment so you do not have to worry about over pigmenting so much. The added advantage is that all thee EQ's are approximately the same viscosity - still cannot be put into a squeeze bottle like WB though.
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Each pig has its own viscosity and thixotropic characteristics but no, squeeze bottles are out. Unless maybe if you cut the tips off. But then theres the issue of settling.
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What is the cost of getting setup on one of these systems... on the smallest level practical (for space and usage reasons... we are SMALL time).
I suppose I will ask here since it's a hot topic, what is the viscosity of the pc express pigments? Are they like the CCI WB Pigments? Can they be put into squeeze bottles?
I suppose you could put some into squeeze bottles, but - in my experience - some of the pigments settle after sitting for a while. for example, electron blue isnt used very often - you have to stir it before using because the solids will settle to the bottom. after opening a new bucket and stirring we usually draw off a quart into a bucket that we would use for every day mixing. it makes it easier to stir and get the solids dispersed into the rest of the PC.
ones that settle more than most:
10700 PC GREEN
18000 PC ELECTRON YELLOW
18010 PC ELECTRON BLUE
18060 PC ELECTRON ROCKET RED
19040 PC ELECTRON PINK
the Maroon or Magenta (i forget which) dosent settle out like the Electron PCs, but will get some plasticiser that will rise to the top and will need to be stirred up before use.
the Bright Yellow will need to be stirred when you open it as you can see the plasticiser through the clear bucket.
do not put a full bucket of pigment in an ink shaker. the plasticiser will leak through the bucket seal and you will be cleaning the inside of your shaker.
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Thanks for the info everyone! So long as the pigments don't go bad, I don't have much of a problem buying in gallons since it sounds like I might have to wait on quarts anyhow. That and I expect that the quarts would have a much higher cost/volume. Too bad about the squeeze bottles, it can't be that much more difficult than mixing nazdar 9760 pms colors though.
As for the equalizer system, I am not inclined towards that since it doesn't look like it would work with top score base. At least it seems like I would have to give up some of the properties of the top score base to use it.
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PC is the way to go so long as you lock down your ink mixes. If your staff can get on board with using the IMS and never, ever dolloping PC into ink "by eye" you'll be just fine. You do need to drive this point home hard with anyone with access to the ink area. The IMS puts out a blinking red danger sign if your mix is out of balance, it's not tough, but my printer worked in a shop previously that had the PC system and the staff would just throw the pigs into inks will nilly...I can only imagine how many un-cured, migrating and bad crocking prints that shop put out.
We can mix a little half quart of any pantone with any base to suit the application and I sure do like that. I don't know of an accurate mix system that lets you mix athletic/low cure temp/low bleed type inks along with the rest of them, it's pretty cool.
Quarts really should be stocked, available and priced reasonably for this system, especially in the lesser used pigs. It's just so concentrated. I don't mind buying gals but you end up with thousands of dollars in ink on the shelf. For some operations, that money could be better invested and ink purchased as needed.
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Just got a call from PolyOne, super nice and willing to address the situation. Options are available to me now. Thanks to TSB for being a public forum for printers like me to address problems and be able to get answers. Thanks PolyOne.
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This is a great thread. It is making me realize I really need to invest in a mixing system.
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Whew, stepped a way for a sec and lots of good information and questions.
Currently we have a pretty small screen printing production area (~20'x24'). We MOSTLY use off the shelf Union Ink. We WERE buying quarts in colors and just recently I told my printer that we would start buying gallons as we are finally printing enough that it makes more sense (probably always did, but I'm cheap). Example, I've been printing shirts in house for a little over a year, we've passed 12's number a couple of months ago, so we are definitely growing (we didn't even try to get business at first as we were just learning the ropes and didn't want to grow too fast).
We are SERIOUSLY small. We are on our 2nd gallon of black, 3rd gallon of white and we've only gone through a bit over a quart of bright red. Now, we have various other colors in stock... but we just don't print large numbers yet. We are manual only right now (hope to change that at some point, given some extra space).
I think we would want to use pigments... basically we want the best bang for our buck that we can afford space wise. I don't mind initial investment if the ROI is decent or if it's on something that A. won't ever go bad. B. the cost continue to go up anyway and C. We will eventually use it. I once found a great sale on A&W rootbeer and bought a YEAR supply of it. :)
I have a situation right now that I have to have a PMS match grey (429) on some 100% poly shirts and this would obviously save me some money vs ordering RFU 429.
Not sure if I addressed all the questions, as I got pulled away a couple of times during typing this... but this is what I got now. :)