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screen printing => Ink and Chemicals => Topic started by: Shanarchy on October 11, 2013, 02:21:11 PM
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I've been wanting to add an ink mixing system for a while. I'm having a tough time deciding which one would be the best for my needs. Hopefully you fine folks can help me.
I am looking at QCM, Wilflex, and Union.
I'd like a system where I can mix WOW inks with a nice opacity to them. I'd also like the option to mix a high opacity ink for the small run jobs (24 pieces red on black, etc) where I can P-F-P without an underbase.
Anyone familiar with the above systems and have personal experience with them?
Also, has anyone ran the numbers to see if it would be worth it to mix all your stock colors instead of buying them?
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Union Mixopaque is probably your best bet. No experience personally, but one of our hosts Frog
uses it.
I don't believe Wilflex makes a p/f/p opaque style ink or mixing system. Though we have had good
results using the PC system with maximum pigment load and a touch of thickener. This for small
left chest type stuff, everything else we underbase.
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Yep, Mixopake is probably not the very best system out there, but it was the best for my needs which sound a lot like yours.
I have used it since its introduction.
It also had the added bonus for me of giving the formulas for stock Union colors.
1. I'ts plenty opaque for P/F/P, but when based down with a soft hand base, (I use IC) it's also pretty good wet on wet, at least on light garments. I frankly do not have as good a result as I would like sometimes with WOW on underbases.
Being a complete ink, it's quite good for small quantities (PC's are next to impossible on some 100g amounts like I sometimes need for a dozen pocket prints)
PC's are also tough to find in small sizes besides the sample pints (if they still have them) $190 gallons can really add up, but at least they will last many of us a long time)
Mixo is available in quarts but man, the price has really shot up to around $28-$33 I think
Some colors are tough. I have had some formulas just not cut it, but they have also come back with some alternative versions over the years as well.
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PC's are also tough to find in small sizes besides the sample pints (if they still have them) $190 gallons can really add up, but at least they will last many of us a long time)
Midwest is on the ball with this one. All PC's are available in quarts through them, only the most
used colors come in gallons. Magenta and Bright Orange list at $325 a gallon. You can literally drop $5 easy.
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Frog,
Union has a mach and a mixopake, right? Are these two completely separate mixing systems? Or can they both work together? I'm assuming they both work the same way, but one your are mixing HO inks and the other WOW inks? DO they sell starter kits? I can't seem to find a site that offers them. Just the inks themselves.
Also, for the Wilflex system, the equalizer was the one that sounded most interesting.
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How is the Wilflex as far as WOW... I have been itching to pull the trigger... just figuring out if I can utilize PC as much as I hope I could.
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Frog,
Union has a mach and a mixopake, right? Are these two completely separate mixing systems? Or can they both work together? I'm assuming they both work the same way, but one your are mixing HO inks and the other WOW inks? DO they sell starter kits? I can't seem to find a site that offers them. Just the inks themselves.
Also, for the Wilflex system, the equalizer was the one that sounded most interesting.
we use the Unimatch for most of our printing. It is very translucent and it absolutely requires and underbase.
MIXO is pretty opaque and can be used PFP without an underbase, but we never found the results to be truly acceptable and very quickly dropped the system. I have seen it used on a manual and the results were significantly better as there was a ton of ink on the garment (well at least colorwise it was better, print was pretty much bulletproof).
Union, if I am not mistaken, specifies 83 mesh for the printing, YIKES! Also, due to the pigment loading, some of the colors are harder to hit. We've never managed to get a good red for example and overall, at least for our customers, the pantone matches were not close enough. Also, the WOW printing with it sucks. You will have to reduce/extend or add their WOW additive (at least it exists)!.
Unimatch is great for mixing and the colors are pretty bright and the gamut it can produce is pretty wide. The formulas are pretty close, but not dead on. Due to it's translucency it blends very well. It is designed for simulated process, so it works great WOW. We very seldom have any issues with that and have run as many as 8 colors WOW.
If you call your Union distributor they should be able to get you a kit. Full MACH kit with white ink and formula book was under $300. I would imagine you can get MAXO kit for about the same price.
We are sort of stuck with MACH as we have too much history (repeat orders) with it and switching would not make much sense now. If I had to switch , I would look into some sort of mixing system with different bases so we can use the pigments (but not concentrates) and make what ever we want.
pierre
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QCM had the best thing going for what you want...had. Not sure what the deal is now with Rutland making it but I would avoid old QCM stock form just before they sold like the plague. Their QMX system killed it for WOW mixes.
Zero experience with Union. Doesn't it cure at 300˚F? That's pretty nice.
WFX Epic PC in here for us now. Excellent WOW printing using the standard base. Toss in fashion or soft hand base and the WOW printing sucks hard. But again, excellent using the correct base.
They do make a HO base now We're currently doing like ebscreen and mixing maximum pigment inks for PFP stuff. Haven't had a chance to get any HO base in as Nazdar only has 5ers available and damned if I'm going to "try out" 5 gal of anything but will at some point. The HO base + max pigment = WFX "super opaque" spots. Neither the super opaques or the HO base are officially low bleed but both have not had bleed issues for us so I guess there is some inherent bleed blocking in the Epic system.
If WFX made a base that was whatever they used for quick white, minus the white of course, it would be a perfect system as there would be your PFP low bleed ink.
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I got a mixo system a while ago and it's ok. I think that the recommendation for the low mesh in the tech sheet is to make an opaque one hit print. Also, I think it's actually 63 tpi or something. The tech sheet also claims that you can push it through 305, but probably only with an auto. I have gotten opaque one hit prints out of it through 110, a little reducer added as well.
I recently took a gamble on the wilflex pc system with the top score base. I had a customer who wanted nike performance shirts printed and I was freaked out about cure temp and everything so I ended up going with top score. Since they didn't have the PMS color the customer wanted, or a similar one for that matter, in the RFU colors, so I grabbed a gallon of the base and quarts of the pigment. I am so happy with this ink! I've got some sample bases from wilflex a while back that I need to try with the pigments, there are so many bases..
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Okay, back to the boards for a minute.
Back in the day, I used 110's (never anything coarser) for whites and the Mixo inks.
A few years back, I went pretty much with 160's with a little more EOM.
My 110's are all pretty much gone now, and I just started using some 140's and 125's for those heavy deposit jobs (like yellows, or when a job is all fleece)
And Shanarchy, I just base my Mixo's way down when going on whites. Never needed the other system.
My set came with a quart of all of the 11 standard colors , and I think a quart of extender base, and a gallon each of White and soft hand base. Some fooormulas also call for neons which were not included (and I recently found out are the same as the slightly lower priced Maxo)
I assumed that they still have a similar package
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This is the print with top score base and epic pc's. The color's way off, but I can't be bothered to bust out the slr. The print was through a 230 screen, could have been smoother I suppose, but this was literally the first thing I used it for. It's also nice and soft.
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I've been wanting to add an ink mixing system for a while. I'm having a tough time deciding which one would be the best for my needs. Hopefully you fine folks can help me.
I am looking at QCM, Wilflex, and Union.
I'd like a system where I can mix WOW inks with a nice opacity to them. I'd also like the option to mix a high opacity ink for the small run jobs (24 pieces red on black, etc) where I can P-F-P without an underbase.
Anyone familiar with the above systems and have personal experience with them?
Also, has anyone ran the numbers to see if it would be worth it to mix all your stock colors instead of buying them?
You do want to go for the Wilflex Epic PC system. Very good for WOW, high opacity for PFP and it gives you the flexibility to change the bases in case you need to print on poly tops. There is a starter kit with pint size pigments plus 1 gallon mixing base or you can get a kit that contains of quarter gallon pigments plus 5 Gallon of mixing base.
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This is the print with top score base and epic pc's. The color's way off, but I can't be bothered to bust out the slr. The print was through a 230 screen, could have been smoother I suppose, but this was literally the first thing I used it for. It's also nice and soft.
Is this pfp, no under base?
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This is the print with top score base and epic pc's. The color's way off, but I can't be bothered to bust out the slr. The print was through a 230 screen, could have been smoother I suppose, but this was literally the first thing I used it for. It's also nice and soft.
Is this pfp, no under base?
Yup, with a modified cameo press.
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This is the print with top score base and epic pc's. The color's way off, but I can't be bothered to bust out the slr. The print was through a 230 screen, could have been smoother I suppose, but this was literally the first thing I used it for. It's also nice and soft.
Is this pfp, no under base?
Yup, with a modified cameo press.
I think I was just sold!
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Yup, with a modified cameo press.
So I picked up a cameo 24 for 200 bucks in perfect working condition and really prefer hand printing flat stock still, but the idea of using it for pumping out one color prints is really appealing. Do you have any photos/videos/diagrams/general thoughts/helpful hints/etc related to this :D I would convert mine to a one color auto for things like tags and sleeves in a freaking second.
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Yup, with a modified cameo press.
So I picked up a cameo 24 for 200 bucks in perfect working condition and really prefer hand printing flat stock still, but the idea of using it for pumping out one color prints is really appealing. Do you have any photos/videos/diagrams/general thoughts/helpful hints/etc related to this :D I would convert mine to a one color auto for things like tags and sleeves in a freaking second.
If not I'd gladly let you out of that investment at NO loss to you. ;)
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o hell no :D
I think it is literally an original model. The housing for the vacuum pump is literally made out of wood, but is painted stock color and looks like it really was originally made of wood (lol). The guy selling it was advertising selling his screens (26x33 and 12 of them for 100 bucks, also in perfect condition) and I saw the cameo in the background of the craigslist image and asked about it. He was like, o yea i should sell that too, how about 200 bucks? I of course jumped on it. He through in a manual screen stretcher and some seriously antique wall mounted vacuum screen exposure units and a nuarc lamp and the oil vacuum pump etc. The stuff is all ancient and I wouldnt even think about turning on the lamp or the pump, but I plan on having them on display eventually in an office or something.
The cameo is incredibly clean and has serviced and oiled etc. No clue why he sold it for so little. He basically said his wife would be happy he got rid of it (lol).
I just want to put it to use and it isnt really useful for most of my flat stock work since the print area is 24x14.
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Those Cameos are workhorses! we put 2 of the bigger ones through enough cycles to literally wear out the vacuum tables (not damage, just wear out) then replaced the tables and kept on printing, and this was all very high end Membrane switch and nameplate stuff. I'd love to see how you retrofitted yours to be able to PFP on one!
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Mine actually came with the original manual and there are some diagrams showing it printing on boxes and stuff that are already put together (who knows...), but the idea of making a shirt platen that works would be awesome. Maybe you could have like two platens on a rail and a flash on each side and print while one is flashing or something, or have a rotating four station thing...hmmmm ideas flowing.
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As to the original topic, QCM makes awesome WOW inks and bases, but since Rutland bought them they've discontinued several colors and inks, including our #1 ink, WOW white. That doesn't make me confident in bringing in more of they're stuff or their mixing system as the future of the line seems uncertain, and maybe even redundant to the Rutland inks.
I used Wilflex PC's at a previous shop and their stuff was top notch, it just isn't as readily available in a hurry where I am. I think I can get by with a WOW base and a good Poly base. What two bases would you recommend?
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We started using the Union mixo for our mixing recently. I am "ok" with it, I keep thinking I am missing something not having a base to mix with like we use for WB/DC inks. I kinda wish we could have it more like WB inks where the pigments are more liquid. It would make mixing smaller amounts much easier. All the formulas seem like they use SO much white.
Do other companies out there that you guys know about or use have more liquid in terms of being thinner pigments?
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The Wilflex PC is very interesting, but I am a little nervous that if I don't mix it correctly it may not cure. This is why I was a little more partial to the PC equalizer. I think it works the same way, but a bad mix just means your color is off.
How forgiving is the PC epic?
And has anyone used the PC equalizer?
So the worry with QCM isn't that it's a bad system, but that Rutland is/may be discontinuing parts of it?
Any one have any idea how they price out to each other for replacement of colors by the gallon? Are they all pretty close in price?
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How would you not mix it correctly?
Just wondering?
It`s os dead easy to use with their software and a good digital scale for $200.
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How would you not mix it correctly?
Just wondering?
It`s os dead easy to use with their software and a good digital scale for $200.
I'm not sure. I guess I'm just afraid that I'd find out later that I added a hair too little or too much of a component. I'm not quite an idiot, but I do appreciate a good idiot proof system!
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How would you not mix it correctly?
Just wondering?
It`s os dead easy to use with their software and a good digital scale for $200.
I'm not sure. I guess I'm just afraid that I'd find out later that I added a hair too little or too much of a component. I'm not quite an idiot, but I do appreciate a good idiot proof system!
Let me say it that way it get`s really simple once you purchased the Sartorius 7501 scale or the 7500. With that scale hooked up to your laptop and the Wilflex software you can recalculate the formula if you added too much of a pigment or base etc. But I did not have the need to buy that scale. I can really recommend that Wilflex PC system. The inks print so well. Get the starter kit and see how you get on with it. Just make sure you get a good scale which are widely available.
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I guess I'll have to make a thread about the cameo. It's probably a lot simpler than you think. Mimosa, I think I may have the same model. Do the squeegee and floodbar connect to the same piece?
Anyhow, the big thing for me about the pc system are the bases. I love the fact that I use the same pigments to make basically whatever kind of ink I want. With the mixo, I can do quite a bit with modifiers and even use it for plasticharge if I up for a little self abuse, but it is still roughly a set of RFU inks. I think the value of the union inks is that they have pretty decent availability and the cost of entry is really low. Hell, dick blick sells union!
Shanarchy, there is not much pigment in most colors, the pic that I showed has a whopping 13.1% pigment load, so you would have to really mess something up to ruin the cure.
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And when printing on white and other very light colored garments only you can even lower the pigment count. Just make sure you mark that on your container? Oh and you can print out "beautiful" labels for your ink pots that show the exact formula etc. I`m not serious about "beautiful" though. But it`s a neat software, the whole pc system is very neat.
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What is recommended as a good digital scale. I know some of the scales can cost some serious coin.
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We bought the Citizen CT-1202, just enough for mixing quarter gallons. If you ever need to mix gallons you might want to go for something else. and of course if your budget allows go for the Sartorius 7500 0r 7501. Make sure the scales can read at least 0.1g or even better 0.01g which our Citizen scale does by the way. It did cost me only $230 as far as I can remember. Wilflex recommends the Sartorius 1500 or 1501 for quarter gallons. It`s fairly cheap too. I would not shy away from the Wilflex system.
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What is recommended as a good digital scale. I know some of the scales can cost some serious coin.
We have gone through a few scales, for us it was SUPER important to have a scale that reads out to 0.01g. Which is more required for WB/DC mixing. Here is the last one we got and like it a lot! We just had to disassemble the glass housing that it comes with.
http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=250954869187 (http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=250954869187)